I want to pull my hair out.

Why do programmers feel the need to make everything so difficult?

I ran into a bug with the BlitzMax GUI, which it turns out was fixed a long time ago, but I didn't know about this because the Updates section in my account says nothing about all new versions of the GUI being available only via SVN.

So now I have to install SVN. Except SVN is a pain in the ass command line piece of crap which didn't work the last time I tried to use it to do version control for one of my BlitzMax apps even though I was being guided on the installation directly by someone who'd used it in C++ for years.

So I go to the SVN website. And I click binaries. But what's this? There's SIX links in the Windows binary box, two of which are Apache.

"What the hell is Apache? Isn't that some web server? Maybe something to do with Linux?" I wonder. I don't have any idea which link to click! There's a visual SVN thing. VISUAL sounds nice.

Crap. This version includes Apache, and I don't know what that is. I don't want or need some web server on my system, why would they even include that in a program that's designed to download some source files for me to the proper directories?

Maybe I'll click the first one instead. Hm... Looks okay, but I don't want to just blindly download something not knowing if it's really the latest or proper version or not. Why couldn't they just have linked to the one version from the main page!

And what's this MD5 hash thing? I mean seriously, who the hell even uses that? The internet has error checking built in, I've never downloaded ANYTHING from the net and not had it work because the download got corrupted? Is anyone actually that paranoid?

Do programmers just enjoy torturing themselves with ever more complicated crap? I've also just found out applications are supposed to have this worthless Manifest file which is written in XML and contains super important information like the name of the program and what version it is.

And I'm sure you al know what a pain in the ass it is to get your programs which worked perfectly fine before to work with user control in Vista for simple tasks like keeping a global high score table.

Btw, I'd look up Apache on Wikipedia to find out what it is, but you know, I'm pretty sure programmers wrote Wikipedia as well. Have you ever tried to edit that thing or even submit one photo to it? I did. It took me like three hours to do. (And then some idiot immediatley deleted my photo.) I vowed never to attempt to contribute any free content to it ever again.

Ugh. All I wanted was a minimize button on my non-resizable window.

I don't know why you do, but you seem to enjoy making things more difficult for yourslef than they need to be. I guess only you can answer that question for yourself.

How am I making things more difficult for myself? In order to get my app to work properly I have to install SVN so I can get the latest update.

I suppose I could choose just to do the lazy thing and have an app which you can't minimize or say screw the users who run at resolutions higher than 1920x1200, and forego said update.

Unlike previous BRL products, I would guess BlitzMax is not aimed at beginners. Perhaps BRL is wrong to assume that a programmer would actually be able to install updates and maintain updates for BMax using one of the most popular methods for developers.

Hehehe... nice rant :-)

I think perhaps you took the wrong turn somewhere.... maybe you should be here instead?

:-)

Is this how the forums are going to be now? We're just going to ritually humiliate any one of the thousands of users who bought Blitz3D, BlitzPlus and now BlitzMax because they were easy to use in what little bit of spare time one might get.

Perhaps those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to spend a lot of time ferreting around with these things should consider that it's "weekend warriors" looking for something easy and something you can fit into an hour here and there who supported the products in the first place, and without them, there probably won't be any new ones.

I never said I couldn't install it. I said it was a waste of time. It'll take hours to figure out what I need to install, and how it works. And for what? What possible benefit can I derive from using SVN to install my updates which downloading a simple EXE and running it to do the install didn't get me?

NOTHING.

Seems to me all SVN is doing is offloading all the work of putting together a version install onto every single user. So now instead of the guy making the changes having to do a few minutes of work putting together an EXE each time, every single new user to Max has to spend several hours figuring out how to get SVN to work and has to keep SVN up to date as well.

Very funny brucey. :-)

So you are just lazy? How is installing an update a waste of time? I teold my kids and now my grandkids that it takes less time to do something right than explain why you didn't. It seems you would rather spend hours whining about having to install an update instead of spending a couple of minutes installing an update.

If it takes you hours to install SVN and figure it out, then you have some serious personal issues to deal with.

It couldn't be simpler. I use a simple batch file that does it all with one click, somebody posted a similar batch file in one of the SVN thread before I had a chance to post mine. Clicking on one shortcut to download and install updates and recompile mods isn't hard. Are you really telling me holding a mouse and pushing the left button down is too hard for you?

Two benefits:

1. It would fix your problem.
2. We wouldn't have to put up with you throwing tantrums because you don't want to install the update to fix the problem you are having.

But really... what IS the problem here? :-p

You download TortoiseSVN, install, possibly restart the PC, open an explorer window, right-click, select Checkout from the TortoiseSVN context menu, enter the URL as provided elsewhere around here, enter your username/password, and way-hey... Bob's your uncle. (more or less... this is from memory!)

You can download the latest Max core code... latest IDE (probably?)... latest MaxGUI - which I expect is what you want.

There's not even anything to "learn"... no command-line nonsense... no MD5 "crap"...
When you want to see if there's anything new, just right-click on the folder, and choose Update....


But hey, if you don't want to tinker with all this new-fangled-ness, I'm sure there will be another "official release" in due course. Which is what the "weekend warriors" will be more than happy to wait for, I'm sure.

Are you sure? That requires downloading it to install it and clicking with a mouse to use it. :p

I agree with SSwift. Its a nightmare.

I wanted to have the dev version of Blitzmax installed and I couldn't make head nor tail of it all either. Couldn't find instructions anywhere. The extent of it all hit home when I installed Blitzmax on a new PC a few days ago.

1. Install Blitzmax as normal.
2. Fix it so Blitzmax centres graphics windows on the desktop instead of dumping them in a corner.
3. Install Subversion.
4. Install MinGW.
5. Set up MinGW so it actually works.
6. Install the SVN version of Blitzmax (using some batch files I saved from before).
7. Install MaxGUI with the 'normal' Blitzmax.
8. Build modules.
9. Build MaxIDE.
10. Open up the new MaxIDE and rebuild modules in threaded mode.
11. Fix the SVN version so it centres graphics windows on the desktop.
12. Modify some C source code so the new garbage collector doesn't create massive logfiles.
13. Build modules.
14. Install Project Studio.
15. Install TortoiseSVN.

:/

But it's the DEV version.... why would you expect a free-ride for something that hasn't been released with all the usual bells-and-whistles that get added for you ??

Oh wait.... I know... Mr Sibly? Please could you build an "official" dev release, please?

Sorted :-)

I find it particularly amusing that you said:



After finding this in a thread on advice about how to get SVN working:



I guess everyone here is an idiot.

I expect there to be reasonably useful instructions that I don't need a private investigator to be able to find.

Pretty sure you never used to have an attitude. Where's that coming from?
I'm an idiot for agreeing with you??

Installing the update isn't a waste of time. Instaling SVN to install updates is a waste of time.

You're absolutely right that it takes less time to do things right. But in this case the right way is to just put the files up in a self extracting EXE so people can just run that and install the files to the right directory.

The right way is NOT having people download a command line utility (What are we still in the days of DOS? I haven't used the command line in AGES) and have them spend several hours figuring out how it works, only to find out that they need to install a bunch of other crap as well to get it to work, and then make more changes, and well, you get the picture.

The process is broken. The RIGHT way to do things is to get the process fixed, not ignore that it is broken and work around it.


If the defintion of "lazy" is doing the least amount of work neccessary to get the desired result, then I guess I'm lazy. But I thought that was the definition of "efficient".

You used "search". We are making progress.

I am not sure. With threading still being "unofficial" and the problem with the GC for threads, an official release still may not fix all outstanding bugs (which is what I thought was the purpose for official releases?).

No, I meant that by implying I was an idiot because I couldn't figure out SVN, he was implying everyone was an idiot because that thread clearly indicates tons of folks here had problems installing it.

Wait till you try to set up SVN on a web server ;[

Because nobody told me it was the dev version. Someone just made a fix and then said I had to grab "revision 1.66" or something.

The when I realized that in order to get the fix that I was going to have to spend three hours figuring out how to install this SVN thing which I'd sworn off of after being unable to get it to work a couple years ago, well, that didn't make me happy.

And after readng GFK's description of all he had to go though... well... forget it. I'll do without the update.

Anyone who would go through all that trouble willingly to install a beta version of an update has clearly got something wrong with their head. :-)

My giddy Aunt! I might give Max a miss if this is the sort of rumness I'll be saddled with...as if it isn't already hard enough making our own progs and games.

The irony is for current Windows platforms, more command line or "console" programs are written and used in the business setting than GUI apps.

However, TortoiseSVN as Brucey pointed out is not a console-only program and it integrates into explorer with full GUI capabilities:

http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/ExplorerIntegration.html#contextmenus

I wanted to try out the threading stuff, is all.

Keep in mind, the SVN repository is OPTIONAL. If you want to be 'lazy' (your words) all you have to do is wait -- sooner or later there will be an official 1.32 release that contains all the updates that are on SVN as well.
(Just like the 1.30 release was 1.28 + all the SVN changes)

You only need to install SVN if you want the updates now.

There's a choice. Take it or leave it.

Ah, well.. that was silly of them... !

Bounce me a mail, and I'll zip up a copy if you like.... no big deal :-)

Yes I just use the download links on the updates page.

There's no pointer there or explanation anywhere about "svn" so I guess it's not very important. ;)

(Except of course when you need of a new fix that is not yet in the exe versions.)

Download tortoise svn from: http://tortoisesvn.net/downloads
Install it. Right click with mouse from within the ms explorer should show an tortoiseSVN entry, select repo-browser to connect to http://blitzbasic.com:81/svn/blitzmax
Log in with your community account. Now you can browse through the repository. With checkout you might download stuff to your hdd.
I tried it right now the first time. Should work for you either.

It is not my place to tell Mark how he should release or distribute his software. What you are asking for is already done, check your account section for the updates.

If you want the dev version or latest bug fixes or unofficial features, use SVN. I am guessing these are made via SVN so potential buggy unofficial changes are not forced on all the users and only those who want them will download them.

Its dead simple. Literally takes a couple of minutes to install and learn. If you use one of the posted batch files, it will even auto-recompile mods for you.

You paid for it, didn't you?




Mmm... nope, version 1.30, same as yesterday. And last week. And last month. No updates since August.

How can it recompile anyting if I don't have a compiler installed?

And a couple minutes to install and learn? Surely you jest. Maybe if your name was John Carmack and you had no social skills because all of your brain matter was dedicated to computing.

Ah.... tis a problem indeed.

The zips I have lying here are source only... ho well... next time :-)

Brucey were you ready to send an update to somebody who doesn't even own BMax? Shame on you!

I paid for it and I get updates. It could not be simpler.

Make up your mind what updates you want. If you want the official updates, they are in your account section. If you want the unofficial updates, they are easy to get via SVN.

I guess learning how to use Windows Explorer can be daunting for beginners, but it has been around since '95. Surely you have picked it up by now, or do you still use one of the Windows 3.1 file manager clones?

Either way as demonstrated by lo-tekk, it takes mere minutes to install and use even if like lo-tekk you have never used it before.

I'm pretty sure he does, Mr V.

Anyhoo, I think I'll just crawl back under my rock now, and leave General Discussion to itself... dunno what I'm doing over here anyways.. :-)

I thought when you said it would auto recompile you were referring to compiling C with MinGW. Which according to GFK is something you need to have installed to get the dev version of BlitzMax to work.

I see where sswift is coming from( ...and the rest of you as well. Though maybe you guys were a lil harsh on him, but I've only skimmed through the replies ;) )

I can totally relate to the feeling, not necessarily with blitzmax, but just in general. From what I've seen, "stupid complexity" seems to be the norm, even encouraged, in the realm of programming/computing.

You want to do some kind of task or work, but what should be a dead simple, straightforward process ends up with you jumping through a bunch of hoops just to even get started.

As an example, look at Gfk's item list. It wouldn't be so bad, if it weren't for the fact that so many libraries and tools and what-nots are guilty of it. It can be maddening at times.

Anyways... regarding SVN. I wouldn't complain about, but instead embrace it. Its really worth it if you're even semi serious about coding. And its not hard to learn the basics of it. Luckily, people have had the foresight to make it all easy to install via TortoiseSVN.

So blah. Just sayin... I can relate. Don't see things changing anytime soon though. I try to do my best to keep the human/ease of use factor in mind when I'm writing things though :)

Pfft? Are you crazy? I've been using it since Windows 95, but I'd hardly consider myself an expert on it since it has so much useless crap embedded in it. I mean I set the thing to display thumbnails in one directory and sometimes it remembers to keep it that way and sometimes it forgets and sometimes it decides to just set other directories to display thumbnails. Or I can do nothing at all and sometimes it will remove the last modified tab and replace it with camera information tabs even though I've never enabled such tabs and they're not even in a directory with photos.

And I don't have a clue what all that crap under the Tools menu is supposed to do because I don't have any computers networked together. And does anyone actually put FAVORITES in explorer? And it took me like five years to figure out what registry setting I had to change to make it so when you use the search function it actually searched inside of blitzmax source files instead of prentending those files simply didn't exist.

So you see, even if you've been using something for nigh on ten years you still might not know all the ins and outs of it. And yes Explorer IS daunting for beginners. Even trying to talk my aunt through using it over the phone she still can't figure it out. In what crazy world do you live that you think such an app is obvious even to a newbie? She doesn't even know what a drive is.

At least someone gets it. I'm not even complaining specifically about SVN here. I'm complaining about just general stuff that is made complicated for no good reason, and create a barrier or entry that even a seasoned programmer like myself can find daunting at times.

And it doesn't have to be that way.

I mean what the hell have we gained from all this complexity? I don't get it.

I have a freind who is a professional artist who went to four years of art college, who's worked in the game industry as an artist for the past ten years on titles like Bioshock and who knows apps like 3D Studio Max and Photoshop inside and out... And I had to tell him a few months ago when he tried to use my Texture Generator that I didn't need to add a thumbnail view for loading images like Photoshop, because the file dialog in Windows already has one if you click the little icon in the upper right, which nobody uses because... well I don't know. Maybe because the idiots that made photoshop decided they could do it better and added yet another feature onto a program which has a billion features only 10% of which I've been able to familiarize myself with after using it constantly for 15 years.

Yes. I have a simple batch file that updates all files via svn and then recompiles all the mods via MinGW. There is a similar batch file in one of the threads. FWIW, I have tortiseSVN installed, but don't use it. I use whatever the SVN program was that Mark suggested.

I think he knows we are just busting his chops ;)

I can see sswift's point, I just don't agree with it. Mark can't please everybody, but I really think he has found a "happy medium". The official updates are few and far between, but are there for those who prefer everything in one package and no extra effort. For those who want the latest fixes and don't mind the possible bug here and there, we have the SVN method. FWIW, I have never had any problems with anything from SVN, it has been stable for me. Stuff gets posted there more often than some people realize. Of course there are drawbacks, like with the new GC. But this is one of the things we risk by using the SVN versions. This bug doesn't affect me since I am not using threads. But I am sure Mark will have it fixed for the next official release.

You are going to love Vista.

i don't get it, why is it so difficult to type a web address into TortoiseSVN? it's like 2 clicks, and you've got the latest version. I would say that it most likely takes more clicks to navigate to the blitzbasic.com page, log in and then download the latest official release from the accounts page than get the latest stuff from SVN.

It really isn't rocket science....

Cheers
Charlie

I laugh at that statement.

That is all.

Tortoise SVN doesn't play well with some applications on Vista (I don't know about XP). e.g. Paint Shop Pro X2. It looks like it interferes with how the explorer passes document paths to the calling application or maybe something to do with DDE.

So far I haven't got any problems with Tortoise SVN. Before I always used RapidSVN, but since it's build at SVN 1.4 it's a bit troublesome with newer repositories. Also, Tortoise SVN is a lot easier to use and has better features when it comes to merging and branching.

Pfft! I am never EVER going to install Vista. Microsoft will release something better soon enough.



And you know that address off the top of your head do you? Cause I'd forget it every time and have to go digging through the forum trying to find where they put the address.

Also since when do you have to log into Blitbasic.com? Mine's been logged in since forever.

PS:
You're all wrong about everything, ever!

The problem I have with things like SVN is that once something goes that route the official updates seem to get more scarce. Want a fix to a bug from months ago, it's on SVN! When it should be an easy to install compiled app.

Feel free, blast away cause I want to be spoon fed (I do, and I don't see anything wrong with it either - that is what my customers expect and I expect nothing less)

Hi,

A couple of points:

* SVN is not going anywhere. It has simplified my life 10-fold and allowed others apart from myself to make updates - in fact, the relevant fix was probably made not by myself but more likely by Seb via SVN.

* I agree SVN instructions could be better. I will add some links to the product updates section very soon. In the meantime, see: http://blitzbasic.com:81/svn/blitzmax/ - click on README.

* There wont be another 'major/setup.exe' release of BlitzMax until the GC and threading stuff has settled in a bit. I don't know when that will be right now.

* A 'mega updater' that automates SVN is problematic for the (main) reason that you still need to recompile modules after an update. Storing module binaries via SVN will NOT be happening - I tried this with syncmods and it was a nightmare.

In conclusion: I hear what you're saying - I wish everything was 'simpler' myself. One obvious way to make it all simpler would be to just close down SVN - voila! no more complaints about how complex SVN updates are!

But I believe doing this would both hurt BlitzMax's development and esp. suck for the people who appreciate and benefit from SVN. It wont be happening.

I'll wait for the next official release before updating. SVN sounds a bit of a pain to me, I used to like the old SyncMods. Would be nice if the IDE could automate the SVN process itself somehow without the need for additional downloads and command line stuff etc.

.

He means it's more simple from a BlitzMax development POV, with multiple authors contributing.

[edit] Hmm, you edited it out as I posted :)

You only need to enter it once. It then creates a hidden .svn subfolder under the folder that you want to sync which contains the neccesary info, and from that moment on it's just a Right-click -> SVN Update to sync up to the latest version.

You wanna know what's funny?

I just realised I probably don't even need to deal with all this SVN stuff because now that I know there's two versions of the GUI code, and one works right and one is broken, panels PROBABLY won't crash on resolutions higher than 1920x1200 and so I don't have to recode everything to make it nice without being able to use panels.

At least I hope that's the case. If not I will badger Mark to fix the broken panels.

I personaly don't have a big problem with SVN: othere than the Tortoise SVN clashing with PSP and the others GUI's being over complicated.
If your using the command line version it would be worth your while writting a batch/script file to automate the task of updating.

Yes. They are. Quite.

Here's why: The amount of people who use BlitzMAX, within it's limitations, and yet have a project significantly complex to justify using a version and configuration control tool, are not large enough to support a commercial product, like BlitzMAX. It seems to me there is a clear divide between people who enjoy using SVN and messing about with the BlitzMAX source code (we can call these developers if it makes you feel big and clever), and the people who actually produce commercially viable products using BlitzMAX.

For me, it's gotten to the point where I don't even care anymore. Using BlitzMAX is no longer more productive than either C# or Java. While the language is arguably more compact, the hoops you have to jump through with regards to 3rd party software, just isn't worth it anymore. Let's compare.

BlitzMAX:
1) Install BlitzMAX.
2) Install MingGW.
3) Install Subversion.
4) Hunt through the Internets for any other 3rd party software you might want to use.
5) Setup repositories.
6) Checkout latest version of software.
7) Recompile everything.
8) Start new project.
9) Code.

Java (Netbeans):
1) Install NetBeans.
2) Start new project.
3) Code.

Java (Eclipse):
1) Install Eclipse.
2) Wait forever until Eclipse is done updating itself.
3) Setup your environment.
4) Start new project.
5) Code.

C# (Visual Studio)
1) Install Visual Studio.
2) Install ReSharper.
4) Start a new project.
5) Code.

Python (any IDE):
1) Instal Python.
2) Install IDE.
3) Start a new project.
4) Code.

Clearly for people who just want to get to the coding step and make some games or whatever, BlitzMAX is now the worst candidate. While no doubt SVN is easier for BRL, and a real boon for people like Seb and Brucey, who enjoy mucking about with the guts of a language, and by the Reaganomics trickle-down theory, in the long run good for the community, once a "stable" release is forthcoming, for the majority of BRLs market segment (who aren't Brucey and Seb), it's a genuine problem.

Leadwerks might very well be right that BlitzMAX is the best programing language ever, but like other best programing languages ever (perl and lisp come to mind) if nobody uses it, it doesn't matter how good it is, because everyone is coding in Visual Basic!

To make the install of MinGW / SVN / etc. a lot easier, take a look at BlitzMax Companion:

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=79814

It can install:
- MinGW
- SubVersion
- FrameWork Assistant
- Help Index Creator
- UPX
- ResHacker
- MaxIDE Community Edition

By the way, your "Hunt through the internets for any other 3rd party software you might want to use" is a bit of a stretch since it applies to ALL of the above, not just BlitzMax.

sswift, I recommend BlitzMax Companion. It will create two batch files on your desktop that install and update your BlitzMax installation via SVN - all you need to do is remember your username/pass.

Hair pulling moved to here:
http://blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=82370

Just a question.... Why is everybody saying the dev version are updates? Oficcial updates come with a setup utility and pre-compiled modules, so them 'just work'. The SVN thing just let us access the development sources currently being worked on, wich is a nice add on, but not updates for regular users. Next update will come when blitzMax 1.31 is released, and I'm sure you won't need any SVN application to install it.

This is a great example of where, IMHO, the Blitz project has gone wrong. The main "killerapp" for Blitz was always that it was very powerful, giving you a great toolset; and yet simple and easy to use.

You could install it and start doing cool stuff straight away.

Blitzmax is more of an inferior alternative to C# or Java, it's lofty goals are let down by it's lack of features and added complexity. Now Blitzmax has no commercial impetus I can only see it driftiing further into irrelevance.

Darkheart

I still just install and code. I went down the SVN route for MaxGUI (didn't think there was a choice) but , once installed, never really update it.
As for Bmax : base 1.30 seems OK.
I guess if I was doing some commercial then the SVN option would help get out of a hole for showstopping problems.

That would not be a good idea since Mark is not the one who maintains/improves MaxGUI.

> because everyone is coding in Visual Basic!

To be fair to Mark, I am a VB fanboi and I'm not impressed with the route MS has taken lately either. The number of performance bugs in the latest version of visual studio is an atrocity - and finding patches and workarounds has taken hours of my time. That is not even mentioning the horror that is WPF development.

"That would not be a good idea since Mark is not the one who maintains/improves MaxGUI."

The code in question that is cuasing the crashes doesn't appear to be in the BlitzMax source code. Are you implying Mark has given access to the C code to someone he's not paying so they can update it instead?

I think the main reason people go ranting on the forum about this is the lack of instructions. Official instructions in an obvious place, not a README file in the subversion repository. That simply and plainly explain what the difference between the official release and the svn version is, and how to install each on ALL supported OS´s.

You shouldn´t need to search the forums just to get it working.

I recently installed BlitzMax on Ubuntu, and the only official instructions were very old and outdated. Fortunately the forums helped. And NO, I´m not just a Linux geek that should know how to do all this stuff. I actually run WindowsXP, OSX and Ubuntu at home. One of the nicest things for me about BlitzMax is that it´s cross platform.

Sebholl I believe is 'in charge' of the MaxGUI module now.

Aren't events part of native bmax rather than MaxGUI?

Ever heard Pythons easy_install? So no, it doesn't apply to all of the above. Most other languages have similar tools (Mavin, CPAN, etc.) so it's just another place were BliztMAX is failing to keep up with the competition.

I am still fairly new here, but based on my understanding (via the magical search feature) there was a parting of ways to an extent a few years ago, where Simon was no longer a full-time BRL employee. Simon appears to have been "given" MaxGUI, at which time Simon asked people to consider buying MaxGUI if they were given it for free to encourage him to further develop it. Again, my understanding of the old posts. Around that time, Mark started on a new GUI lib which has been stopped (I think) for some time now.

When I bought BMax and MaxGUI (the only BRL products I own), MaxGUI was pretty buggy and had been stagnant. SHortly after I bought it, SebHoll stepped in and picked up the slack. He has fixed bugs, rewritten many parts of the GUI and turned it into something very stable and usable and he keeps it updated on a regular basis. You had a fix provided within hours of reporting a problem. However, you chose not to install the fix.

Unfortunately, people fear the "search" feature just as much as they do SVN. With a forum, you can't make every post sticky. If you don't care enough about the product you are using to read the forum from time to time to keep up with official announcements, updates and changes, I don't see how this is the fault of BRL?

Isn't "panel" part of MaxGUI and not native bmax?

Several of the newest members of staff at my place of work are like some of the people in this thread, which is why I'm quitting. Unbearable.

Yes, panel *is* part of MaxGUI. As the issue Swifty is pointing to now seems related to eventmousemove and polledinput I was suggesting it might be a core Bmax issue.
What makes you think it's a 'panel' issue?

Because a panel issue is what sswift was reporting (and what inspired this thread).

I just want to log into my account, download the latest versions. After all, I'm a paid customer, and I just want access to what I paid for. KISS seems best. :)

SSWIFT - Why are you using MaxGui for your game anyway? With all of your sprite goodies, couldn't you just create a custom gui?

Ahh I see. I was referring to the latest 'hair pulling' posted
more recently .
As the original issues were confirmed and fixed within MaxGUI it would REALLY have been dumb of me to suggest they were non-maxGUI issues.

Gotcha, I missed that one.

SVN doesnt bother me. Setting up MinGW does, it's a pain in the resource hook and doing it several times over for different machines with different OS' and having to do it again when BMax moves to a later version and arrrrgh.

Compiling modules: Pain in the kneck.

Some things BMax just hasn't quite thought through from a usability and intuitiveness stand point.

It's still a great language though, i'd rather be using it than any other. I just wish I had the will to setup all my machines for all my projects so I could work on any computer on any task and keep it all synced on my SVN repository. That's how i'd like to work, but the constant need to maintain my BlitzMax install sapped the will from me.

I agree with Banshee - MinGW is much more difficult to set up than SVN and it's needed in any case. That's the only part of BlitzMax that works better on Linux than Windows...

Wait a minute. What? If I don't care enough about a product, to take up a second job, sorting out the signal to noise ratio of this place, it's somehow my fault the product is broken?

Does that apply to any other commercial products? At all? Think hard about your answer.

Granted, if the search function was practical (like say Google, or even Lucene) and if BRL provided an RSS feed of important posts, then maybe yes it could conceivably by my fault BRLs product is broken, or rather that I am not up to speed. However since I already have a job which takes up quite a large portion of my time, I'm not particularly keen on starting a second one, just to make sure my tools are up-to-date. Even less so since all my other tools take care of this for me.

Well put.

But it only takes two minutes?

* Download and run little installer
* Select required packages
* Wait to download and install
* Set the MINGW environment variable to the location it was installed in.
* Add the MINGW bin dir to the PATH environment variable

:-)

And what does any of that have to do with what I said about code that may be broken but which Seb may not have access to?

I thought you had lost your job because the head guy took off with all of the cash?

I don't even remember how to do that and the last version of a Microsoft OS which actually came with a manual that described how to was DOS 5.0.

So at the very least I'd have to spend several minutes looking it up online.

Since SebHoll is the one taking care of MaxGUI, wouldn't he have the code for MaxGUI? (The same code we have access to by the way to change or fix whatever we desire)

But, I guess it is easier to spend days complaining about a bug than spend a couple of minutes downloading and installing the bug fixes.

If you live in the USA, there are computer services who will come out to your house and install software and updates for you, for a small fee. IIRC, Best Buy even offers this service. You might consider giving them a call.

I'm not using the GUI elements.

All I want my app to do is:
* Be able to run either fullscreen or in a window.
* Switch between the two seamlessly.
* Parse input the same way in either mode.
* Have a window which either:
A) Has a maximize button which when pressed maximizes the window leaving the canvas centered and putting a black border around it (which must be created with a panel, except the old GUI code was crashing when you had a panel and the desktop res exceeded 1920x1200)
or
B) Is not resiable, but has a minimize button, and a grayed out maximize button. (Easy enough in Windows, someone posted code to do it several months ago, but I wanted a cross-platform compatible method to do so. Seb's fix is only for Win32.)
* Redraw properly as it is moved about.

Basically, I'm uisng MaxGUI because vanilla BlitzMax has a crappy setup when running in a window (No minimize button? Really?) so I have to work around that by making a canvas and stuff.

There may have been some other reason as well I chose to do that but whatever it was has been lost to the mists of time since I first wrote the code two years ago.

.

I don't want to get into the politics and other crap going on in this thread. But, I do want to say that the expectation that programmers are going to be all around computer geeks is far from correct.

Here in my office, the programmers pretty much only know how to use their compilers. And look at some of the questions asked around this site. People don't understand routers, and ask about simple PC repairs, etc. I am not saying this is a bad thing, I am just pointing out that you can't just expect users of this software to be computer geeks and be able to operate command line apps and understand environment variables.

I personally wish to know as little as possible about stuff these days - keeps me merrier.

I think however, the only logical way to settle this debate is naked wrestling - simple as that.

I agree with sswift, gfk (makes a change ;P) and flameduck.

BMax has so much potential, its a great language but while reasonably straightforward (after doing it once or twice), there are a lot of steps to take to get it all going at a more advanced (..than it says on the tin) level.
I have just been praying for the day when "BlitzMax" is released with Blitzmax, Max2D and Max3D as one download and one install.

I am using Mono C#+irrlicht on linux at the moment as its so simple to set up and go. Strangely blitzmax on linux is actually easier to get going than on windows (when doing more advanced stuff req. gcc or mingw etc). With the exception of using packages (DEBs/RPMs) this should NOT be the case! MinGW is (or was last time i checked) a royal pain in the bum on vista, it couldnt even compile over network drives.

The SVN part is the easy part, the problematic thing is MinGW, but the bmax companion can install that for you.

Just use tortoise SVN, takes a few seconds to install itself, then you just right click anywhere on your HD where you want it, select checkout, type in the URL provided, your Login pass you use for the forums and a minute or two later you have the entire SVN.

No need to install and dodgy command lines or use a command prompt and dos like instructions. You can copy your svn files anywhere on your HD and still right click and update and get the latest version.

It really is simple with a client like tortoise. It's only scary if you go to the SVN website, which seems to be written by linux beardos and looks like you need a degree in unix shell programming to install and run it.

Given how many people think SVN is a ridiculously simple, failsafe solution to distributing source code, it's surprising none of them were able to solve this problem.

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=82211

I agree, its not that hard, but dont forget BMAX is supposed to appeal to beginners as well who dont know what a variable is, let alone svn.

This is because linux/macos effectively come with 'builtin' c/c++ compilers: Some parts of BlitzMax are written in c/c++, so it's logical that if you want to modify them you will need a c/c++ compiler.

And on Windows that means installing MinGW, and modifying an environment variable so BlitzMax can find the MinGW compilers. I really don't see a 'sane' way around this.

I guess MinGW could be built into every BlitzMax setup - but that'd bloat out the setups massively, and for what - a handful of people who can't/wont set an environment variable?

Even if some of the MinGW installation process could be cleaned up, the bottom line is always gonna be that if you want to get into the C/C++ side of things, things *will* get a little messy. That's just part of the joy of C/C++!

If you don't want to get your hands dirty, then don't: Stick to the safer setups on the product update section.


And I think it *does* appeal to beginners, who can just download the setups from the products update page and ignore the whole MinGW/SVN situation.

I think what people are really after here is a 'silver bullet' that makes the whole BlitzMax/MinGW/SVN thing just magically work. But currently, for whatever reasons, there is no such thing.

And in the absence of such a silver bullet, what should I do? Remove the C/C++ source code from BlitzMax and get rid of SVN so people can't complain it's too complex?

To me, that sounds silly. Still, back in the day there actually *were* a few people who got bmx refunds because syncmods didn't work on their machine. Fair enough I guess, but it's since struck me as odd that the absence of syncmods probably wouldn't have cost me any sales - but it's presence did!

Why not? You could set the environment variables, copy the files that need to be copied on Vista, and it would be virtually ready to go. Would it really be that massive? Surely you can redistribute just GCC and the necessary supporting files. You're not actually forced to redistribute the whole MinGW package, are you? Besides, isn't there now a version of the installer which installs only base files and then lets you pick which compilers to download? It may even be possible to set that installer so that it doesn't ask and just downloads GCC automatically.

The problem is that this affects people who aren't messing with the C source. It affects anyone who ever wants to use a module written by someone who messes with the C source. People very often offer bug fixes by means of something which requires recompiling one of your modules. It's pervasive.


Package up a zip file once a month? Combine it with the same "this is beta code" warning that comes with the SVN version so that you (hopefully) don't get people complaining about errors with beta modules. The complaints about SVN are only coming so often and so vocally because the wait between "release" versions is so long. I'm not saying you can eliminate all complaints. You never will around here. But that would eliminate pretty much all justification for a complaint if committed fixes were only ever a month away from being available to all.

Excellent point. If the threading stuff had surfaced in a 'stable' build I doubt I would've gone down the SVN route, either. I only did so out of morbid curiosity and impatience.

Must be nearly a year since the last stable update, if not longer?

Luckily, I had Seb and others to instruct me on how to set SVN up properly.

The easier the access to the latest code base is, the more users will test it and in return hopefully make proper bug reports.
- I'm might sound a bit naive here, I know... ;o)

I am with mark on this one. If you don't want the hassle then don't use the dev/beta versions. Your not required too. If you want to then engage in the beta'y versions then there are a few more hoops.

Beginers/People who just want to make stuff = Download 1.30, install, code.

More advanced users = install svn/ming/etc


If your really unhappy with it then A) use something you are happy with. B) Make a solution, instead of complaining, the IDE source is all open, make an IDE that that installs and sets up ming/svn yourself.

The SVN system as it is now has been a massive asset for BlitzMax. Without it, for example, the original GUI bug might not have been fixed at all.

Hi,


It's been 6 months since V1.30 - not (in my opinion) all that long.

The next major release will happen when I get around to spending some time cleaning up the new GC/threading stuff.

And I will *try* in future not to let SVN make me tooooo lazy release wise...!

And that's all folks.