any news Mr. Sibly ?

i know iam not the only one who will know any news

http://blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1043

Again?

The last I heard he was stealing undergarments from peoples washing lines and running around his home town with them on his head...

Apparently, he does this everytime a 'Max3D News' thread hits the boards!

:)

Dabz

If that was true, New Zealand would be bereft of undercrackers and Mark's igloo would be stuffed to the rafters with other people's gussets.

Obviously this would be a fire hazard as most man-made fibres are flammable, so he won't be able to switch on his PC any more for safety reasons. Please bear this in mind before future postings about Max3D.

After the last testbuild of max3D he use his apple for other thinks. ^^

Hmm, polycarbonate doesn't generally fare very well when exposed to sunlight for extended periods of time.

..i dont know why you folks making joke about question, pretty much ALL of you expecting to hear about...weird..if you dont like it, just ignore it..

I'm not expecting to hear about it. Yeah I'd like a look at Max3D but I'm not going to give myself an ulcer through worry if it doesn't happen before a week on Thursday, because believe it or not, I've other things that can occupy my time.
You could do the same with the inevitable jokey comments. People are just a bit sick of seeing the same threads time and time again about Max3D. It'll get here when it gets here.

as i said..if you are not expecting it or sick from threads about it..just ignore it and dont ruin other people thread who are expecting it..

I think you've missed the point, though.

If there was any news, it'd be in a worklog. If it'd been released, it'd be on the news page and probably in his worklog as well. If there's no news, then there's no news. I'm sure Mark will post when he's good and ready, and without numerous threads prompting him to do so.

Nagging isn't going to make it happen any faster.

But.. each 'what about Max3d?' thread is hilarious, each day again!

@GfK
Im not missing any point here...here is your words
>>I'm not expecting to hear about it. Yeah I'd like a look at Max3D but I'm not going to give myself an ulcer through worry if it doesn't happen before a week on Thursday, because believe it or not, I've other things that can occupy my time.<<

so if you are not expecting it, and if you not going to torture yourself because of that, why whould you on earth spoil other people thread whos asking about it anyway? if you dont want to hear about it, if you dont like repetition of same threads, why you bothering to even look at it? Leave people to ask what they want and dont spoil something they do believe is important for them to know...thats all about 'point' im missing...if I found some of your post funny to joke with, how would you feel about it? peace..

@ Naughty Alien.

GFK's not trying to spoil the thread, he's just having a bit of fun !.

You are taking this too seriously. Lighten up Mister, or you might give "yourself" an ulcer. :D

Can we shoot, or at least castrate, the next person who starts a where is max3d thread?

..i guess it will be way easy if you just avoid such threads..

I got an email from Mark about this just a few hours ago:

Dear Panno,
You suck.

Mark Sibbally.

Personally, I would like to get a little update on the progress as well.
It's not like it takes a whole day to write a few words on how the past week(s) have gone, and what he wants to embark on next.

It's been over a month since last time he posted something on the forum - not counting the posts in the secret (beta) forum.
Not that I'm getting an ulcer over it, but it doesn't exactly scream good communication.

Anyways.. back to work.. :)

That's not mark! I know cause I just got an email from him:


Sorry Naughty Alien, although I agree with you, I have come to the conclusion a few years ago that those waiting on Max3D really need to seek some professional help as I highly doubt it will materialize anytime soon. If in 6-12 months your curious again, merely rinse and repeat the above comment. We go through this in every "Where's the news?" thread. Blitz had it's day and it's time to let it fade away with pride. Those still using Blitz3D or even Blitzplus get kudos much like those still using QuickBasic to do simple tasks. It's over, they naysayers won, time to move on and find closure in Blitz.

It would seem Mr. Sibley and Maddoxx are very similar in their update ambitions as of late (late being the last 3 years at least)

TBH I think we should all get together and do Max3dCE (Max3d community edition) an open source 3d engine for Max like minib3d but I suppose more like klepto's where it has more features like shaders.

That's actually an interesting idea!
However that whole "Community project" thing is still a bit salty from the whole Frankie Taylor debacle....

Who?

You mean he haunts me in my dreams and yet he writes to YOU??? How could he...sob...and to think last time he appeared he ordered me to slap his pink belly ( which oddly enough looked just like a dog's - nipples'n'all)..and I did too! I feel so used.

Mark should do him self (and rest of us who supported him thru the years and belived in Blitz products) a favour and make Max 3D open source project and let it go. Its obvious that he has lots of other things going on in his life to give this project proper development time it needs, therefor it is taking ages and it may even never see the light of day.

So Mark if you read this consider making opensource project of Max3D. If you indeed know that you will not finish this project in 2 years from now let the community take over, I'm sure you will still earn money from all the people that buy BlitzMax so they can run Max 3D extension. What do you think Mark?

It's shame if BlitzMax never gets Max3D the way you envision it and with all the features you have alraedy added to it and planed to add. Maybe you are no longer interested in this project and only develop it from time to time and do not give it proper attention, we can understand that but dont let it die! Make it an open source project and release the code and in 5 months if not even lesser time this thing will be up and running, what do you have to lose? You got everything to gain, set it free.

Also please Mark if you post another update, let us know what is actually taking so long time, by this time you should have so much code that you wouldnt need to spend another year to get Max3D out, I bet if you wanted you could release it now and it would kick ass. What is the real reson that it's not out, lack of time and dedication on your side? We understand if its that, but then think about making it opensource, let the thing live and let the community finish it and allow it to grow bigger before its too late...

That's funny... given the general gist of these threads, the majority of the "community" wouldn't be much help to it, other than asking for features that they themselves cannot provide.
It's a lot different coding such a product than using it.
As open source, you might get 1 (or 2 if you are really lucky) active developers working on it - neither of who do it for a living - so how long is that going to take to finish?

Funny :-)

whatever brucey ;)

if there are 2 people in the community who could take over and help make this thing see the light of day, eventually more would join and help. If indeed mark has lost all interest and has no real desire and plan finish development and suport of Max3D then next best option is just to open source it and see what happens. Either that or the whole thing dies slowly and never realises. I'm sure Mark has thought about it but is not sure...

Where/when did he say that?

Mmmmm Nice statement, and as such, procede to think that the said statement was stated so Sib could make an offical statement in respect to said statement.

Because volitile statements can cause reaction statements of the defensive state...

And as such, I will state, in the following statement, what I think of said statement...

BOLLOCKS

:D

Dabz

What's so special about Max3D? From what I can tell, by reading the existing worklogs, it doesn't do anything that you can't already do in Blitz Max. In fact, from what I remember, when Mark talked about making it more of a Blitz Game Builder app. which would be different from existing solutions, no one wanted it. So again, what's so special about Max3D? What is this amazing functionality it supplies that I can't already get? Why should I want it? Why? Please reply soon. Thank you.

On a serious note (oh er), I dont get it either... Maybe I'm blind, or just plain old thick in the head (About right), but how people can make assumptions that they NEED a piece of software even before its released, or even before they know its going to be released is a mystery to me.

Yes, Max3D is arriving later than an emergency plumber that only lives next door... But I would hazard a quess that if he did intent to drop Max3D in the bin, then he would have the kudo's to say so... So why worry!?!

Do/use something else until that point comes.

Dabz

Agreed, but that'll only leave us with ~5 members!

Well, not sure how you do things however I like to spend the least amount of energy be it time or money in development.

The fact that it would be officially supported is the amazing functionality you speak of......
Nice to see updates for Blitzmax, not so nice to see updates that break 3rd party plugins and require A. Waiting for the 3rd party (if they are still active) to update to accommodate and B. enormous rewrites on your behalf due to the changes breaking how you do things with said 3rd party software currently.

A supported solution would mean that any changes to the core of Blitzmax would be tested in it's officially supported plugins (and updated accordingly) prior to release. Max3d, being from BRL, would naturally be tested with the updates to Blitzmax (or at least considered during the update process) to ensure that the changes are less intrusive.

I'd be more than happy to see Leadwerks engine become an official plugin if one were to have to choose an alternative to Max3d however until that day comes I cannot invest countless hours on a 3rd party tool just to see Blitzmax get binned or some update break the entire Leadwerks wrapper...

Time is money, and something unsupported is nothing but that.... Unsupported.... Just because someone CAN write a plugin doesn't mean it will always work through the thick and thin of the Blitzmax update process (or lack thereof).

he came to my dream and wishpered it to me, ok? ;) I hope you are happy with the answer :p

maximo: I really think you should see someone about that ;)

TBH I think for me it would be a learning curve BUT I am learning OpenGL with C++ at the moment so I would love to see how it interfaces with Max.

GaryV: posts like this and your sig are 'ugly'. Can you tone it down please?

Awesome. In a thread which is all about complaining that the official support is so terrible, no one ever tells us anything, give up before you die of loneliness, etc. And not a hint of irony. Brilliant.

I don't see the irony.....

I am with Gabriel.

So, for you, this is a benefit? When the majority of people are griping about the lack of official support for the products, including bug fixes and help, you expect Max3D will magically change the way BRL provides support?

My sig is no more offensive than those using their sig to pimp poor-quality software.

Hi Panno, although not interested in 3D I *am* interested in more news on Max3D.

Panno doesn't know anything either tony ;]

I havent had time to read this entire thread but I saw what maximo said and I completely agree... I would definitly buy blitz max if this were to happen. :)

Ah, tears before bedtime.

Looks like we're all hoping daddy will tell us a goodnight story ;-)

Gee, thanks.

Cool, i never knew (or forgot, who knows exactly at this age) that signatures at all exist.

I turned it on just to see what i was missing all those years to, well, find out that i better turn it off again, quick, before i forget how that works again, once upon a time i made a wise decision.

True but just showing a bit of support for what I consider a worthwhile question. Whether it's a useless task is a different matter but the post is not offensive and, I would guess, quite a few people would actually like to know what progress has been made.
The fact that some people post asking for info while others don't see the point or are happy to wait shouldn't result in all pitchforks and firebrands.

Sorry to say this and contradict your oh so righteous opinion however Blitz3d was very well supported. Max seems to be very well supported. Just because updates are slow, and communication is lacking doesn't mean they don't do a good job supporting existing products.

Funny... But even though I have moved on from the BRL line of tools I still can admit that Blitz3D and Blitzmax were well supported tools. Just because Blitzmax didn't go the direction I was hoping doesn't justify my dismissing their support and customer service levels.


Sorry GaryV, you just lost that last little bit of respect I might have had for you. 544 posts on this forum, no real contact info, no worklog entries, no contributions, and nothing that seems to follow your name on the internet of any caliber.... You would only wish you had finished any "poor-quality software" to "pimp". Personally I have done plenty in my time. I am still working on projects outside of this community, and although I know that statement wasn't directed at me I still take offense to it as you really have no room to speak..... Granted worklogs and code contributions are not a real measure of someone's success however with 0-none accomplished (as I would venture to guess in your case) those who do contribute are usually the 'better men'. I have done my fair share of free software and contributions to this community. Perhaps not to the level of Brucey, sswift, or GFK (even though he still bothers me to some degree) however it is still enough to humbly consider myself a member of the community when it was in it's prime.

Gripe all you want about BRL but they did very good in the past. Even though I can put good money on Max3D never surfacing their reputation for support has always been to par!

Not you! I was referring to those promoting products sold by The Game Creators in their sigs.

I am not the one griping about BRL, am I? Unlike many here, I do not take jabs at BRL, and Mark every other day and wet my britches throwing fits because Max3D isn't here yet.

Regardless, I'm sure you'd love to have their revenue.

Not really. I don't need pocket change bad enough to ever consider letting TGC sell my products.

Puppies! Puppies! Puppies! Look - I've made soup...

:)

Ok,

It was the first and last times I then asked.

I have genuine interest in News and there may be the way some of your answers do not understand.

despite everything
mfg panno

I'm with you Panno.
I understand why people tire of seeing Max3D status requests as they often (always?) go unanswered. I don't agree that is enough reason to derail somebody's post which doesn't seem to contradict any forum rules.

> I don't agree that is enough reason to derail somebody's post

Posts asking for the status of Max3D are the forum equivalent of "are we there yet" coming from the back seat of the car, so I can understand why such threads get the response they do. That said, I'm wondering how it is going too...

Exactly and I agree.
What do you do in that situation though? Ignore your kids? Get somebody to make fun of them or explain how far it is to go, what they need to look out for and how long it might take?
Like Max3D requests the 'are we there yets' will continue until you provide some answer.

Are you suggesting that Mark will "TURN THIS CAR AROUND!!!" and go home? Because that would mean some B+ updates, yay!

> What do you do in that situation though?

Standard answer, "We'll get there when we get there", Forum version "It will be done when it's done"

Michaelangelo said that about the Sistine chapel.

Actually that sentence is in most cases wrong for computer software. Usually the developers think it's "done", and release it much earlier than when it would be actually done. Then you get patches, bug fixes and updates so that the done version will someday be ready.

All those patches and updates for Windows are a good example for this.
The product was never done, but you get little bits and parts over several years to get it closer to what it originally should have been.

The best time to release computer software seems to be "when it runs on my PC at least as long that I can start it, and exit it".

Given that analogy - I must say that it's Mark who's driving, and not the other kids in the backseat. (think about it)

..and also - let's compare the development of Max3D with a 1 week roadtrip -
it would be like the driver (Mark) only opens his mouth once a day, saying that he's fairly sure where he's driving or that he's changed the route he wants to drive,
and then he shuts up for a whole day.
No wonder the kids in the backseat nags a little bit.. ;)

in my opinion no product is ever 'done' there is always something to be improved or some bug to fix!

Your analogy holds true even beyond that, as in both instances, said answer will stop the requests for approximately the time required to take a deep breath.

What is this Max3D I keep hearing about?

Wasn't *really* my analogy just using it for light relief.
I don't blame people who are interested for whatever reason to ask for progress after 4 months.
It doesn't hurt and it shouldn't cause any offence which is why I think it's odd that so many people jump on the posts.

You're such fools.

It's not just that "they ask after 4 months", it's perfectly understandable that people are curious.
the bigger issue is that you can find a new thread on the same topic every few days going back that entire 4 months, so it should be obvious that it's pretty pointless to start yet another one about it...

... but that's no reason to derail somebody's thread : pointless or not. I'm not suggesting Mark will respond but how about just having the post sit there, nicely, either moving down the list or just in case somebody else wants to add to it?

Exactly. So we are left with two scenarios, either these people who have severe memory issues (which makes you wonder how they would be able to use a 3d game engine), or they are instigators who enjoy starting trouble on the forums.

They don't go unanswered. Mark has been very clear on Max3D. People just do not like the answer they get. They think by whining and throwing fits every other day they will get a different answer or put Mark on a guilt trip and get him to release something before he thinks its ready for prime time.

It's been 4 months since his last worklog entry. I enjoy reading them and I hope he post one soon.

Worklog update!

Ok, now that's creepy! :O

Wow! Fast response! But what exactly's creepy?!?

"(Posted 2 seconds ago)"

lol.

Open source, this is definitely an interesting turn. Good news and thanks for the response before the nutty holidays.

haha well everyone was talking and u just randomly pop in and say what we've all been wanting to hear! but I dont think there's anything wrong with that :)

wait did I read correctly?

MAX 3D IS OPEN SOURCE!!!!!! YAY!!! THANK YOU!!!

It's creepy that you post a worklog after I wrote that I like reading them...
If it's like this it works, I will start writing that a lot more often! ;)

Max3D going open source? Yay! I don't have the latest in hardware, my main computer is a macbook, but yay anyway! :D

o_O

sounds interesting... GREAT IDEA!!

Wow, I'm positively shocked. Max3D is now a open source community project. So no one can ever whine about it anymore, since everyone can post their wishes.
If your wishes were not approved, the fault is in your idea/wish, since the community is always right :)

Great to get some news, and


sounds just great.

I think open sourcing Max3D is a really cool move.

Woah, sounds good. Unexpected but sounds good.

Looking forward to the repo. Should be soom though form what you say, i.e a week. :)

And blitz3d sourcode, well that's an extra bonus. :)

I think Blitz3D SDK source code is just calling Blitz3D commands in the DLL export functions, so there shouldn't be any Blitz3D source code available.

Hi,


Not quite - as far as the BRL version of Max3d goes, *I* am always right!

But, being open source, there is nothing preventing anyone from forking the project and making their own 'right' version.

Damn Mark, that was extremely left field however very welcomed (and in some ways very wise when one thinks about it). Time to unbin Blitzmax and start relearning it before the opensource release :-)

I agree. Because of this, I will definitely be buying the B3DSDK in the coming months.

Interesting. Seems I returned at just about the right time then.

Just a concern about the LGPL: how is one to do anything commercial with this unless we're dynamically linking this particular module/code, given that the LGPL required (last I checked) dynamic linking if you did not want to open-source your entire code-base (statically linked code is considered putting the code in with your own, I suppose). Given that BMax currently statically links all code from what I've seen, will the BMax module specifically (I don't know about other language interfaces) be dynamically linked or how does one go about this?

hmmm... so how is this open source thing going to work? is it going to be only for bmax users or b3d users or sdk users or is it for everyone?

The LGPL only says that you must make all changes to the engine public, you can still keep all code of your game for yourself which only use the engine commands, but don't change them.

Hi,

For more info on LGPL, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

Bottom line for gamedevs is that Max3d will generally need to be shipped in DLL form with the game, not statically linked.

Max3d is currently integrated into BlitzMax as a module, but is already in DLL form - the BlitzMax module simply uses LoadLibrary/GetProcAddress to open/use it.

so if I am understanding right we will have to buy blitz max to use max 3d?

And what of using it under Mac OS? Same deal I'd assume, except with dlopen/dlsym instead?

Going open sauce sounds like a good move to me :)

I'm disappointed to hear that, I hope it can be changed.

For the kind of stuff I do, deploying a single exe really is the way to go.

The LGPL like licenses comes in variations that allows static linking, so if it's just a license question, I'd really prefer an alternative to LGPL.

Are there other reasons you don't want to allow static linking?

Good call Mark! 2009 should be fun :)

What sort of stuff do you do that can't be squished into a setup.exe?

Another option would be to dual license it and charge for the non-LGPL version I guess...ala TrollTech and Qt...hmmm.

@Nate, You have to buy BlitzMax anyway, because it's a cool compiler, and Mark Sibly needs more money for his next Ferrari.
Max3D works with any language which can load a DLL, so you don't need BlitzMax for that, but you should still buy it.

..very nice :)

3Dviewers/interactive3D with incbinned models.

@lumooja

ok I will have to start saving up my allowence... 2$ a week for cleaning my room isnt the highest wages! thats 40 weeks almost a year! (but its probably deserved because I dont do a very good job) ok cant wait till it comes out. Thanks again Mark!

You can make single exe files with WinRAR which drops the files into a secret temp folder, then launch the real exe and afterwards delete the temp files. Models can be still protected with password encrypted ZIP files, which's password only your game knows.

Why do those require a single executable?

I'd pay ... :-)

wow lumooja we posted 1 second apart!!! lol

..so, all in all, can we see some kind of feature list for MAX3D at current stage as well as platforms covered (I guess PC, MAC, Iphone?)

Hi,


I'll look into it then!

Not sure on the legal side of things, but I know TrollTech do it.

I highly doubt this is for the iPhone...

I deploy exe's often, and to many inexperienced users.

They will run the applications directly from zip files if they can, because they often will not now the concept of unzipping. To them a zip folder is usually just "a funny looking folder".

The concept of installing,running and uninstalling an application, trivial as it may seem to most of you, is not always an easy task for some of my users. Running the application for the first time may work, but refinding the shortcut and starting again is another matter.

It's a huge timesaver for me not to have to create setups.

I'm sure I have more reasons because I've been over this so many times in the past, but this will have to do for now.

Great!

What are your reasons for not choosing an MIT style licence?

Seconding this question.

Mark, that is probably a really good choice!
Not because I'm an open source nut (although I am), but because that can get outside people more interested in BlitzMax. I bet it'll expand your audience, whereas Max3D being a module you have to buy extra on top of a new language would have given it somewhat more limited coverage :)

Now all I need is for BlitzMax to be easy on my 64-bit Ubuntu install and I'll be happy!

sounds good to me....

[rant on]
how can you not charge for something you've put so much work into? how do you pay your bills and buy the crap everybody needs?

you make good products... you need to charge for them!
[rant off]

im very sure it will increase Bmax sales...im one whos going to buy it in next week-two..

Heck yeah. I'll look into buying bmax as well if max3d turns out nicely.

Hi,


Because I'd like any changes/enhancements made to Max3D to remain public, and I don't think the BSD/MIT licences provide for this.

That said, I now think the LGPL license is perhaps a bit too restrictive in that I can't see a problem with people statically linking to Max3D.

The idea of LGPL allowing end users to upgrade libraries is commendable, but with Max3D you're likely to want fairly precise control over what version the end user is running - a little similar to ODE where they recommend you statically link to make sure your app knows exactly which version of the lib is being used (but for different reasons).

So, I'll research the license issue some more, but my current thinking is "LGPL with an exception for statically linking".

Very interesting..
Would still love to see a demo of some of the features in action..

..guess we will be seeing "max skidmarks"

thanks for the update - much appreciated.

..yeah..cant wait to give it a try over my levels...mmm

Great news!

Very very very happy about the open source movement!

Can't wait.

This is generally my preferred option as a user. I like the idea of forcing changes to be published, because it's good for the product, but I do really like to be able to statically link if I want to.

That would be great -- the ability to make an entire game wrapped into just a single .exe is one of the nice things about Blitzmax.

The static linking exception thing sounds good to me too :-)

An exception sounds like a good way to keep changes public without raining on anyone's parade.

this is great news Mark, good move on making it open source, it will keep the dream alive, I have read your mind :)

Count me as one of the static linking exception fanboys!

Oh boy! This is all getting too confusing for me.
Who's taking what, where and when? And if so what's waiting where if and when 'what's is face' wanders over? I myself was wondering worriedly, what happens when 'whoever' wants what's working, without waiting while whatever it is we all want, will finally waive the right to write working work-a-rounds for the wealth of wayward community code we all welcomed with wide-open arms...wrongfully.

I AM now going to whip that MELON! It's been TOO long.

You know it makes sense.

Thanks for the update!

Sounds very good.

wow.... just, wow!

*plop*

Thanks Mark!

It's Christmas time!
Thanks Mark!

That's what I decided with my 2D game engine which was originally going to be LGPL. In the end I decided to go with the Artistic License 2.0, which is a far nicer way of doing things (for my purposes any way).

You might want to check it out: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/artistic-license-2.0.php

wxWindows license (aka wxWidgets) is effectively LGPL, with static-linking exception also.

Very popular mixture, it seems :-)

Maybe Mark could allow static linking only from the blitzmax compiler? anyway, I really don't care distributing a DLL with games, given the fact that any decent game will be distributed with an proper set up application that puts any file in the right place, or the game will be delivered inside a MacOs app folder with the dylib inside, so I don't think this is really important (just my 2 cents). Additionally, anybody could create a self-extracting exe with blitzmax and incbin to extract the dll to the user temp folder and dynamically load it from there.

I agree. I don't see why it would be an issue.

but now I'm glad to have asked!

Thank Mr.Sibly

mfg