Another thread asking which engine I should use...

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a new toolset for a project, and I'm torn. I like the look of Unity and I work on Mac, and iPhone/OSX/Win publishing is a nice boon; but I really like programming in Blitz3D and I know therefore I'd like BMax, while I don't have any experience with C++ or C# or Java. I like the way Leadwerks integrates with BMax, but it's Win only and it seems like it requires a high-end card. TGEA looks nice (and you can publish for XBox?) but it seems I need to know C++. TV3D seems to be programmable in BMax? But again, it's Windows only.

Here's my project: FPS outdoors/indoors with some RTS elements & vehicles. Multiplayer would be nice. But the deal-breaker is this: I have to be able to build custom meshes from scratch, as it contains a sort of Geo-Mod system. I had a framework of it running on B3D and I know the same commands are available in Leadwerks. But I don't know if I can do such things in Unity, TGEA or TV3D. One thing I really like about Leadwerks from the videos is the dynamic lighting - I always hated baked in lightmaps. Does the lighting work similarly in U, TGEA, TV3D?

Basically, Unity looks great and stable but I can't quite get my head around moving from programming in B3D to scripting in Unity - and I need custom meshes. Leadwerks looks great and like I could really dive in, but I'm interested in OSX and even iPhone/XBox down the line, and it might not be as stable as other engines. And TV3D and TGEA are somewhat unknown quantities. To be honest, all the games that use TGE look pretty basic and kiddy. Think Tanks? Dark Horizons? They look and play like early B3D tech demos.

To conclude, I'm all in a tizzy and I want someone to wave a magic wand and make it all better.

If you like Blitz3D, get Blitzmax and MiniB3D.

And yes, there's a TV3D wrapper around here somewhere.

Regarding the TV3D module, you'll have to contact me if you want the BlitzMax wrapper as I don't currently have anywhere to host it. It does support custom mesh creation, and it is Windows only. It supports either static or dynamic lighting, along with inbuilt stencil shadows which are reasonably robust. There are a few open source shadowmapping solutions available for TV3D now too, if that's your preference.

Xors3D

Aside from MiniB3d there is no viable, cross-platform, reasonably easy-to-use BlitzMax 3D module. MiniB3d does have some limitations, including lack of support for recent technologies (shaders, etc), no built-in terrain system or planes, and you can only load .B3D files. You can build meshes from scratch, and, if you’re capable and inclined, modify the MiniB3d source code to include the features you want.

The Windows-only options have personally left me disappointed, and I’ve recently tried many of them, including Leadwerks Engine, B3DSDK, TrueVision3D and Irrlich. IMO, none of them have the winning Blitz3D combination of ease-of-use, acceptable stability, quick performance, and reasonable end-user system requirements.



To be honest, it doesn’t look promising in the near term. Max3D is supposedly in development at BRL, but it has been a while since Mark has commented on it.

There was another potential contender, Flow3D, an Ogre wrapper for use with BlitzMax. However, that has not yet been released, and is presently MIA.

As you mentioned in your initial post, there are non-Blitz solutions, but you’ve more or less provided accurate reasons as to why these are not suitable for your project.

Thanks for all the info. How does MiniB3D perform? When I was last working on the project, I was thinking that what I wanted to do might run like a pig - however that was maybe 3 or 4 years ago on an older machine, so I guess the average user's rig is more capable now...

I've just found out that Unity is capable of creating and modifying custom meshes, which makes it a real front runner - the only snag now is that I'd have to learn it! Having used the demo of it, it felt very foreign to the pure procedural coding I'm used to with B3D. Anyone moved from B3D to Unity who can comment on the learning curve? And is it C++ or a proprietary scripting language? (I understand you can use Java as well, but since I know neither I guess I may as well learn C++)

I do have Unity pro, and i learn it very quickly...i do miss a lot B3D approach where you simply coding everything, while Unity holding you a bit 'up' , but its okay..with such nice userbase and very good documentation, including completely done 3D platformer game with all media and source and documentation, its very easy to jump in..and comunity is very helpful..at the end its all up to you..I like Unity a lot, its simple and nice to use, and very user friendly, contain everything you want already, shaders, physics, multiplatform, etc...but if one day Max3D appear (or even B3D v.2.0) with multiplatform nature, i will be first one who will turn back to it with no question asked...till then, Unity or some other stuff available (open source), such as JME or Horde3D for example..

Thanks... Unity seems to run pretty slowly on my Macbook Pro. The Avert Fate demo isn't all that complex and runs about 15fps at high settings, only about 40fps at middle settings which don't look all that great. And the Paradise Island demo runs fairly smoothly but there's no physics going on at all, you just walk straight through trees! Makes me wonder if it's suitable. I guess there's not going to be anything in that price range that runs super fast...

thats weird..my MacBook pro simply flying...whats your configuration?? Mine is 17 inch with 8800gt..yours?

Wish there was a bit more concrete info around regarding Max3d. This might open up the option of BlitzMax + Blitz3d SDK as being a viable intermediary step...

Even my 2 years old computer can run Avert Fate at very high FPS rates (WinXP).

Mine is 15" 2.33 Core 2 Duo, 2GB RAM, ATI Radeon X1600 - almost 2yrs old now. Don't get me wrong, it was playable, but it rang alarm bells because of how simple it was.

Maybe something isn't setup correctly with your MacBook Pro? If it's a new one you shouldn't forget that you manually have to switch between the 9600 and 9400 gfx before. I got decent framerates on the new MacBook Pro with quite some stuff i've tested. You also have to take into account some hardware specs like that as an example the 9600 in the MacBook Pro is limited by it's 128bit memory interface for certain actions.

Unity isn't the fastest solution on earth and on the PC there are a few systems which behave strange due to driver issues or missing fallbacks, i've witnessed this with some Quadros and GeForce3s for instance but it's still a reliable and well performing solution. Actually the best available overall solution in this price range, moreover if you have the Mac on your radar and contrary to quite some other tools there's ongoing development which gives it a long term perspective.

Depending on your needs/budget i guess i would dive into Unity (available), test Shiva (needs time to marture up), Virtools (i guess you have the money as you also seem to demand more quality/speed), wait for Max3D (release date/stability/features unknown), wait for Director 12 (again unknown), test something else ...

As for learning i guess in the long term you have two options: either you give up on programming and doing projects or you arrange yourself with the fact that there is always something new to learn. Programming in Unity isn't as nice as programming in BlitzMax from it's commandset for instance but on the other side you also get some concepts which make your life easier (physics integration, drag&drop behaviour, code reusability, ...).

The perfect tool isn't around yet but until then from a current point of view i would go with Unity if you're after 3D crossplatform.

Minib3d is pretty good, although slower than blitz3d, and missing a few features. All in all, it looks like a tough choice...

I keep finding new engines all the time! It's enough to make my head spin... I really want something with dynamic lighting and built in physics so MiniB3D is out for me. Seeing the Leadwerks engine tutorial videos I'd love to go with that, as it is so close to the coding I'm used to but with lighting that just works and physics that just works - but the limited publishing avenue is a worry. And Unity looks shiny but maybe only with simple scenes. Obviously I'd love for Max3D to suddenly appear and be like the B3D of tomorrow, but we all know that ain't happening.

I guess I need to set aside a month, think up a simple demo which includes the concepts I want to use and then make it within Leadwerks, Unity and whatever other engine trials I can find, and see which suits me best. Now, when might I have a whole month to myself...

XOR3D? Still in Beta though...

Is XOR3D for Windows only, or is it cross platform? I couldn't tell from their website.

Xors3D is based on DirectX 9.0c, according to their website, and you definitely can't get that going on Linux or Mac, so I guess it must be Windows only.

Interesting that someone fears that Unity could have problems with large scenes considering that it features the best and fastest terrain engine you can get for money in this price range as well as full streaming support for building whole worlds. Unity lacks in other disciplines but for sure not there. Comparing hacks like MiniB3D with a full blown and proofen gamedev product like Unity is kind of neat too.

..Unity works just fine mrtricks..however, you will feel less as a programmer with it, thats for sure..but if you wanna make games and not applications , you cant go wrong with Unity..

Only if you scratch the surface...

I found Unity hopelessly slow on my Macbook. It only has an Intel graphics chip, so I shouldn't expect miracles, but a basic terrain scene with virtually no trimmings really crawled. I'm not sure it's entirely suitable for the lower spec range.

It's cost is kind of limiting too. $1500 for the full version (I really dislike limited versions), plus $1500 for the iPhone license means you're going to have to sell and awful lot of those $.99 iPhone games to break even.

Personally I would wait for Max3D. It does all the things you're after, is very much alive and well and looking good, and I doubt it will cost $1500.

>>Personally I would wait for Max3D. It does all the things you're after, is very much alive and well and looking good, and I doubt it will cost $1500.<<

I luv this :)

One thing i've witnessed quite often when people calling things slow is that they forget that all the eye candy also needs the appropriate hardware below. Speaking of Intel gfx this means taking care of the poly count, taking care of the fillrate, oh and taking care of intel drivers as well.

On my Mini Unity runs as fast as no other engine i've used there if you restrict yourself to what's possible in terms of resolution, AA, pixel lights and so on. If you keep this reasonable then you also get decent framerates on the Intel chips. If only one aspect isn't wisely choosen you'll have a bottleneck which might look like the engine isn't performing well but it's your fault.

$1500 for sure is a lot more money but you also get a lot for it more than with any other tool out there. Saying so the iPhone publishing option is way overpriced but we at least got the www class into the indie licence. Still not a perfect solution but at least the possibility exists.

I'm still curious to see how Max3D will shape up and most likely will buy it but i doubt that it will play in the same league as Unity. If it's well designed it could be a handy companion for BlitzMax which can be used for a variety of projects but i don't see how one person can deal with what a whole team can come up with. Overall i suspect the price point will play a very important role for many here so there's for sure a market for it. Mark just has to come up with something within the next months as Unity3D will release the win version of Unity and the $200 indie version will be very attarctive for a lot of people. You don't get all the features but hey you also can't publish for web with BlitzMax as well. Crossing fingers for Max3D!

simonh said



My oh my, an interesting remark from someone who should be in "the know" about such things. Fingers, even more tightly, crossed.

I'd love to believe it was just around the corner, but I'm getting older every day...

Unity does seem like the best option at the moment - I'm sure once I get stuck into the coding and understand it more I'll learn to love it.

[edit]But I've just seen that you only get the dynamic lighting and self shadowing with Unity Pro, $1500. Bah.

Yep, no dynamic shadows as well as you generally don't get any rtt capabilities and some other stuff which you can lookup here.

-> http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses

On the other side you a.o. get the gameengine & the editor with all the benefits, the terrain engine, the PhysX-physics engine, the networking, ...

-> http://unity3d.com/unity/features

I'd rather that Mark make B3DSDK cross-platform(add GL support etc) or MiniB3D with DX7/8/9/10 driver. That might never happen tho, I simply with I can make a DX driver for MiniB3D if I had spare time and enough DX/GL knowledge for this....wahtever.

Just like to say, we're not MIA and we're still working on it. Life just slowed things down a lot. (Lots of personal life stuff slowing things down. What can you do?)

As of this instant we are still working on the editor and engine. I just had this site blocked from access at work so don't get to come on here much anymore! Also, as we've informed a couple of people already, the name will change before release. We still don't know what to, but this is why the website is offline. We made a post about this a while before the site expired.

Problem with these kind of things is, at least as i've experienced it with several other tools, that most likely it won't turn into a useful product for someone outside your team because alone maintaining such a thing is more a full time job.

there is also nuclear fusion, windows based, cheap, commands much like blitz3d etc.
http://www.nuclearglory.com/

Well, got my answer about Leadwerks - the evaluation package doesn't even run on my Macbook Pro. I tried updating the drivers but they refused to update - I remember now that Boot Camp comes with its own special graphics drivers...