Alternative 3D Indie Languages?

Did anyone actually used some other 3D Indie Language for a while like GLBasic or Cobra3D etc.

I checked Cobra3D, looks cool but not cross-platform, the command set are pretty good tho.

GLBasic has multi-platform support, seems pretty fun. I did find many English users around there. GP2X support is cool.... I'd want one GP2X Wiz if possible.

Anyone actually tried that, especially GLBasic?

I settled on Blitz once I found it, prior to that I used various incarnations of DarkBASIC which is syntactically the equivellent of Welsh. It's reasonably powerful in the graphics department, though to this day users still complain of bugs and having to code in workarounds.

PureBASIC looked quite good, I tried a demo of that - 3D support was provided by Ogre, I didnt really get that far with it though. It felt a bit of a step back from Blitz but does seem that it would suite applications development well.

I can't say much about the others.

I would say XNA - it's C# based but very easy to learn and extremely powerful, and has the backing of Microsoft which means it will probably last well and be updated often.

I've got GLBasic and Cobra :)

I actually won this years GLBasic/GP2X coding competition, with my game B'lox!. It's a nice little language, that is faster, more powerful and has more features than Blitz3D, but not quite upto the standard of BlitzMax just yet. GLBasic can (via Gernot until the next update) turn code out for the Wiz and is soon going to be able to spit code out for the Pandora too.

As for Cobra, it appears to be quite powerful, but the language syntax itself is not particularly nice or intuative (neither is BlitzMax, but I get alot done more quickly with that). Speed isn't upto BMax either. It's just not my cup of tea.

I started developing in Max at the same time as Cobra and wanted to compare speeds and performance of both languages, so I created the same game in both languages. BMax dumped on Cobra in all areas - so I dumped Cobra. I've never used it since.

So currently I used BMax and GLBasic. But I'm a 2D coder only, so can't compare 3D functionality between GLB and Cobra.

I've checked into WPF, not really a games language but for desktop style applications.

The only issue I have with XNA is that the user needs a lot of things already installed, i.e. .net 3.0 and in some cases, the XNA runtime file.
It's also very resource hungry, needing a shader level graphics card to work. Blitz is better due to it's much lower system requirements and simpler coding syntax. C# with XNA is much simpler than C++ coding with Directx3D, but it's still nothing close to the simplicity of Blitz3D

What are you looking for in the suposed alternative?

Yes, it's not cross-platform, if that's an issue for anyone, and as Andy already said, it does have some pretty fearsome requirements, which would be a problem for a casual 2d game, but perhaps not for a mainstream 3d game. I would certainly agree that, if you're comfortable with Blitz3D syntax and particularly if you're comfortable with BlitzMax, C# will not be much of a leap.

@Ziggy:

Built in 3D like GLBasic is what I need, I like some 3D modules like MiniB3D or Irrlicht for BlitzMax.

While browsing in the GLBasic forum, I read some issue about 3D in GLBasic, dunno if anyone actually has actually written mid-to-large scale game with it.

Depending on your customers target, you could take a look to the leadwerks engine. And also, depending on your dead lines, you could wait to max3d

You could also take a look at the Ecere SDK

OOP support in the language. Comes with 3D and GUI libs.
Free, and soon to become open source.

The back end is gcc, so it opens the possibility for a potential ARM port.

http://tirania.org/blog/

Yoko,

Go to http://www.unity3d.com and have a long good look around, check out the docs, partcularly check out the tropical Island demo in your browser (wow!), look into the pricing, the features, the real-time lighting and shadows and physics examples. The indie license is due to change soon so wait for that and you will get mac and PC versioning... currently develop on a Mac, but Windows coming soon (I saw a demo today and it is sweet) an dyou will be able to use Visual Studio for coding. iPhone kit released today - $399 for the indie - sweet.

Nothing else compares so well, for many reasons, check out the community for a list of games aready complete (check out http://www.tumbledrop.com as one sweet and simple in browser example).

Particles, physics, shadows, gui, c sharp or javascript (or boo if you like python) all included. Atari President Phil Harrison (of PS One fame - look it up) gave the keynote today in Copenhagen, he wasnt paid to come he just thinks Unity is a very very important part of the future of digital delivery gaming - and I'm not gonna argue with him.

IPete2.

Guys, if Mark is on target,you should see BlitzMax3d around xmas 2008. I would wait.

They've been saying that for what? The last 3 years? But sure, if you don't mind developing on a Mac, give it a shot sounds like it does everything you want.

What? Unlike BMax3D you mean which has been coming since the time of George Bray "and next year it will go 3D" - lol. BMax has been around longer than Unity I think.

No seriously Unity Windows is a more recent development maybe the last 18 months or so, they have only been going since 2005 I think it was a good decision to get a stable and reliable system working first, then port to Windows. Although you can create Windows executables already on the Mac with the current Pro 2.1 and soon the Indie 2.5. I have to admit I am looking forward to getting a PC version running as I am comfier on the PC, but in the meantime, you still need the Mac to develop for iPhone anyways, there is no way around that, and you can mix licenses I believe.

I have seen the iPhone demos today and the Unity for iPhone is brilliant. Unity editor runs the code and seconds later it appears on the iPhone, where you can control the app which is still running from the editor on the Mac. You play the game on the iPhone and can still use the inspector to make tweaks whilst the game is running thereby increasing efficiency of development time by a huge amount. You only deploy to the iPhone via xcode once the app is finished.

All the major functionality is there, 5 point multi touch, accelerometer, landscape/portrait auto resize, www classes, texture compression, occlusion culling, and more. The games look better and run faster than anything in 3d so far seen on the iPhone, due to the way the Unity team has approached the development.

I say again, currently there is no other application which provides the same results, for so many platforms, with such a great tool set, selection of scripting languages (c#, javascript, boo), for the feature set and price and licensing. Unity 3D is where BMax should have been years ago.

IPete2.

Sounds great IPete2, and Unity certainly holds a lot more promise than some of the other things I've looked at (Torque, Shiva, XNA).

On topic, I haven't checked out Cobra3D, but if you don't want to use BMax with either Blitz3DSDK or MiniB3D (and Unity didn't exist), then my next choice would be XNA.

Unless it's vastly improved over the last 18 months I can't stand Torque (for reasons too long to go into here), and Shiva wasn't even stable enough to run the included samples without crashing - I tried it two different PC's just to be sure it wasn't my machine. XNA has been very stable, fairly intuitive, and pretty well supported. One downside to XNA is that it's easier to do 2D stuff than 3D (compared to something like Blitz3D, which remains wonderful, if a bit outdated).

If only BMax had a native 3D engine... it's a shame Mark took so long to take the plunge when we were all crying out for it from day one.

>>If only BMax had a native 3D engine... it's a shame Mark took so long to take the plunge when we were all crying out for it from day one.<<

Very true..I do like Unity3D a lot, even initially when i bought it (ver.1) i hated it that time..it was really ugly and slow..but now is really different piece of cake..im only wondering, how would look like windows version?? I mean..is it going to have same features list regarding portability?? or it will be Win version only or what? If exactly feature list as present one (Pro version), is it going to kill their sales on MAC or what??

http://www.thereeteam.com/index.php?x0=0&y0=4&z0=0&z1=4&z2=0

Don't know if this has been posted yet but try Shiva 3d. http://www.stonetrip.com/shiva/shiva-3d-game-engine.html
I've Been playing around in it the past 2 days. Having a bit of a Blender gui deja vue (ugh!) but otherwise it's very interesting.
feature list reads like Unity

Later
Gnu

Gnu,

You should read all posts in a thread - as mousey pointed out Shiva was completely unusable on TWO independent PCs he tried - not even running the included sample files :( sad because competition is always good for a product.

IPete2.

PS Yoko - these are not rants btw I just don't want you guys to miss 'all the heavenly glory' - that's all! :)

IPete2,

"You should read all posts in a thread"
Thanks for the heads up on that.

I take it you haven't tried it yourself? Stability has been fine so far but it is probably still early days for this product.

Take care
Gnu

..Unity Pro rulez, but I still have B3D tatoo on my arm :)

Shiva is working here just fine!
1- Great performance of the included sample games/demos.
2- Price is Just right.
3- iPhone addon is free!!!! (well, this feature is enough)

@Gnu,

Well I installed it and tried it for about 5 minutes, because I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing with Unity. I also needed to be sure that Shiva couldn't turn into a distraction for me. When I settle on a technology like Flash Director, B3d I have to know my clients can not be let down by it, and therefore by me. I am placing my entire reputation 'on the line' everytime I deliver a product, so it HAS to be the best it can be. This has been my living for the last 15 years or so, many 'great things' have come along, looked steady and then disappeared up their own exhaust pipes - even World standards like Macromedia/Adobe Director hadn't had an update for almost 4 years until this year! That is no good when bugs still need squashing in critical sub systems. Director is fine for somethings, but the much promised Direct 9 3D engine is pretty crap and almost impossible to develop economically with.

To be honest - I'm not trying to push Unity on people - simply make them see its not just another runner, its way way way out in the lead. I met most of the team at the 3 day conference in Copenhagen this week - these guys are more than ahead of the game. We had a closed door meeting to discuss what features the 200 strong users who attended, wanted and we threw ideas about, many of which were picked up on - no promises but lots of smiling customers because these guys actually took the time to listen to us and take note. That kind of support and community is outstanding for professionals such as myself.

I'll end with this - if it is good enough for the likes of Fun Com (Age Of Conan) and Cartoon Network...it's likely to be good enough for my clients.

@Sphinx,

Let me ask a question about Shiva iPhone.

How is the code excuted on the iPhone? Its interpreted isn't it? Funny because a little bird mentioned to me over the conference I was just at that Apple won't allow interpreted code on their iPhone, it has to be compiled - which Unity iPhone is.

Now I may be wrong as I don't have Shiva and I haven't read any details about it - but we will have to see what happens if it is true, when Apple realises that, that is what Shiva is doing.

Of course I am just speculating, but maybe that is why its a free add on ?

IPete2.

PS I bet you couldn't really tell that I'm stuck in a hotel room huh???

IPete2,

I understand your position and agree with what you are saying. I'm just saying
here is a promising product which you can try on your PC right now.
When Unity comes out on PC i'll be the first to try it out. In the meantime evaluating products and keeping an opened mind is important.

Good luck with Unity. It sounds like a good product.

Take care
Gnu

I really like ShiVa but I think I'm going to have to go with Unity and here's why.

- French, I don't know French and a lot of support on the forums is in French. They (the devs) try to translate when they can which is nice but it's not always there.

- Industry Status, Unity has it. With company's like Cartoon Network using it knowledge of the tool becomes a resume builder.

- iPhone support, now I played iBall3D on the iPhone and it runs quite well. Check it out in the free section of the App Store, it's the first ShiVa entry. However, I know that ShiVa doesn't support every feature of the iPhone (for example turn your iPhone's sound off and ShiVa doesn't comply). Unity seems to be picking up on more of the subtleties. Also, there is an issue about the interpreted code. I read on the ShiVa forums that they interpreted that line of the iPhone licensing agreement a certain way. When they started talking about various interpretations of interpreted code a red flag was raised.

The only thing that was stopping me from going with Unity for the whole of the last year was getting a new Mac. I have a G4 Mac Mini that I used to do my little ports over the last few years and it doesn't hold up to Unity well. In fact I really just don't like the work flow of a Mac. Windows is so much more efficient it's not even funny. However, for the iPhone it looks like I'm going to have to get a new Intel machine because I just can't seem to get the various G4 deployment tricks working. If I have to upgrade to an Intel machine anyway I might as well go all out.

Don't get me wrong ShiVa and Unity are both very good tools. In my opinion they are the best available and I might end up using both. ShiVa is afterall just $200 with iPhone support. My extensive testing of the tool was successful but I'm getting a slight feeling that something is off and my gut doesn't lie.

I'm not trying to slate Shiva, but both PC's have run everything else I've tried first time. Both of them are Intel dual-core, 2GB RAM, one is running XP the other Vista, and the one which runs Vista has a better graphics card. I can't understand why Shiva kept (a) not doing what it was supposed to, despite following the video tutorials to the letter and (b) crashing with exception errors.

Even if other people are progressing well with it, I just don't have the time or inclination to try and figure out why it won't behave.

Has no one mentioned Python? I'm currently learning Python, and although I don't do 3D, there are a lot of good modules/libraries out there for 3D. Panda3D and I think OGRE as well...

I might be mistaken on the OGRE part but I would give Python a go.

ooh I forgot to highlight it because I don't do anything with it, but Unity supports Boo.

IPete2.

The last couple posts are a quick summation of where my head is at lately. I'm considering starting to use a new engine and am considering both Python Ogre and Panda. Meanwhile I'm realizing Unity has improved a great deal since I last looked at it; still not ideal for me for a couple of somewhat arcane reasons, but it's tempting.

As for the OP, another engine to look at is jMonkeyEngine. It looks pretty good, and was my top choice for switching to until I realized I really can't stand Java.

..take a look at Elemental Engine 2..its fully LUA script supported and it ran on pretty much everything (PC,Xbox,PSP,Playstation, Wii,MAC...), free and open source..

What are the reasons?

can you create everything from code in Unity? all the stuff you can do in the editor?

yuppp...

so, for example, I can "Paint foliage on the terrain with a variety of brushes" dynamically from code? first define certain type of grass, then define that it shows up (per LOD limits) at a specific location and so forth, without having to define a scene in the editor or provide files as foliage maps (in contrast to populating an array from code or something) or such?

If you are looking at Python then you would be better off using Blitz3Dsdk than using Panda IMO.

Mostly because it's a closed technology where you are limited to the features the company provides. I mean, the features provided are really good, but if I want to, say, hook up a light sensor to use as an input device, I'd either need to shell out for the pro version to write a plugin or just be shit out of luck. Basically, the sort of stuff that wouldn't matter to a game developer but do matter to new media artist/researcher like me.



I know little about the SDK, but certainly I think that aside from a couple specific downsides Blitz3D is a preferable game development tool to Panda. Thing is, those couple of downsides (not the least of which being that Blitz3D is Windows only) are becoming larger and larger issues for me.

Anyway I'm leaning more towards Python Ogre really, Panda just happens to be an option for Python 3D game development that can't be ignored.

>>Mostly because it's a closed technology where you are limited to the features the company provides. I mean, the features provided are really good, but if I want to, say, hook up a light sensor to use as an input device, I'd either need to shell out for the pro version to write a plugin or just be shit out of luck. Basically, the sort of stuff that wouldn't matter to a game developer but do matter to new media artist/researcher like me.<<

I do agree..i do have Unity and i love it, but yes, it is closed system and thats something what giving me still feeling like im in the some kind of 'cage'...thats why i still hope to see MAX3D out...multiplatform, of course..