Shiva - Iphone Publishing - Free Addon

The developers of Shiva, the WYSIWYG Game Engine, have announced a price for IPhone publishing, and I thought some of you guys might be interested, given the interest in IPhone Development. It's free. You need to buy or own the engine itself, but there is no additional fee for IPhone publishing, which I think is very generous. Note that you need Windows ( or Parallels ) to develop but you need a Mac ( or possibly OSX and a Hackintosh? ) in order to publish for the IPhone.

http://www.stonetrip.com/shiva/publish-3d-game-on-iphone.html

EDIT: Link added.

Very nice!

Radical, thanks!

That's cool. I've been watching this engine for a couple of months now since you mentioned it as an alternative to Unity for PC users. Haven't played with it yet but the web site suggests that it's a pretty nice tool for web deployment :).

Will be interesting to see how they progress with porting to other platforms.

Am I reading it right that you can't use it without having formally joined the iPhone Developer Program?

Well it's free to try.

No, the IPhone publishing addon is free. You have to own the engine to be able to publish anyway, and the engine is not free. I remember Taumel saying recently that Unity were charging a high price for IPhone publishing, and that was also in addition to owning an engine license.


I would assume so. You can't develop for the IPhone in any shape or form without joining the program, so I can't see how the Shiva developers would have negotiated an exception to that. Particularly since it seems to deploy directly to the IPhone store.

Y'see that strikes me as a little weasel-wordy, but in lieu of other outfits charging extra for iPhone deployment I guess it's fair enough.

Yeah you can -- you can be a registered Apple developer without having joined the developer program. For testing and deployment you have to sign up, but until you're at that point it isn't necessary. Obviously it would be very handy to be able to check out ShiVa without jumping the gun because you might not be sure you even want to sign up until you know you have an engine that suits your needs.

EDIT: Oh there's some YouTube vids linked in the forum.

Yes compared to the Unity deal this offer is the way i also suggested they should have dealt with Unity. Primary generate your profit through the number of additional sales instead of charging extra fees for the publishing possibility.

The cheapest route with Unity is by bying Unity Indie and iPhone Indie (both restricted versions, actually way too much as you can't even implement a proper highscorelist and come with an splash screen) which goes for $600+VAT ($200+$400+VAT) and the Pro solution for $3000+VAT ($1500+$1500) or if you're after the Pro version with asset server even $3500+VAT. To be fair i still think that Unity is ahead of Shiva from it's capabilities but maybe you're fine with what Shiva is able to do already.

In my opinion too expensive if you're counting in additional platforms, maybe android at some point or most probably the money you'll have to invest for updates. (tool plus all the publishing options).

Well, i already said that i'm unhappy with the Unity deal anyway.

A lot of people seem to agree with you. I look at it like this. If BRL announced that BlitzMax would now compile to IPhone*, I wouldn't expect to get it free. I will concede, however, that many would.


Oh I see what you mean. I didn't realise you were referring to testing. I'm afraid I can't answer that. I don't have a Mac (or an IPhone, come to that) so I can't test. The developers' first language is not English though, so it's possible that it's just an unfortunate choice of phrase. If I find out any more, I'll post it here, because you're right, that would be important to know.

* Note to casual readers: BRL has NOT announced that BlitzMax will compile to the IPhone. It's an example :P

I guess that would be because ShiVa isn't exactly prevalent so for most people, who don't already own a license, it (iPhone-ShiVa) isn't free in any meaningful sense. I actually do have ShiVa installed on my PC, though, so I don't want to come across all negative -- the more of these engines that bubble up the better. I wish there was an OSX-based dev environment, though.

You can develop for iPhone using the embedded simulator that comes with the Xcode tools but you must have a provisioning file to deploy to an actual phone. You get the provisioning file when your application is accepted.

Exactly -- but with Unity it seems you can deploy to the simulator (suggesting that you don't need a provisioning file) whereas with ShiVa it looks like it expects you to be fully registered.

Shiva is nice..realy..i like fact that is supported LUA, industry standard in games scripting..however, if you compare prices between Unity and Shiva and keep in mind fature and number of platforms supported at the moment, I think Unity is better option, since price difference is not that high having in mind features and portability to other platforms..at the moment i think Unity is a winner..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pro version of Unity, if you include all the platforms Shiva is available for, is $3k, and Shiva Unlimited is ~$225. Are you really saying that you think Unity is like 10-15 times better? A bit better, maybe, but I don't think that much. And like Taumel says, some of the restrictions in the Indie version of Unity are big ones. You can't really make do with the Indie version.

im talking about expensive versions from both worlds, not indie versions Gabe..full version of Shiva is more expensive than Unity Pro...

Shiva Advanced --- 1499 Euros
Unity Pro -------- 1499 USD

@Sledge anyone should be able to deploy to the simulator. It's deploying to an actual device that requires the provisioning file. Looking at that page you posted though it does sort of look like you can't run a ShiVa app in the simulator, which would be surprising.

Both tools have their pros and cons and it's a little bit like comparing apples with oranges but at the moment i would say:

If you're a pro, already invested into Unity and have something reasonable in mind you'll likely stay with Unity as you're already familiar with the tool and the expenses will be covered by the income of your work hopefully easily.

If you on the other side focus on a low priced solution, are just looking for a way to play around with the iPhone or are interested in the linux publishing option Shiva offers as well then Shiva seems to be the better deal. Unity in a whole is the better and smoother app but do you need this difference? In practice i could imagine a large number of projects which aren't tied to squeezing out the last for instance and i'm sure quite some don't moan about the extra publishing steps when looking at the way better price.


As for the prices:

o Shiva iPhone Publishing costs you €170 (full features with Unlimited).
o Unity iPhone Indie costs you $600 ( splash screen, no www classs which means not even online highscores work)
o Or if you want it all $3000-$3500

If you're only comparing the Pro Versions then depending on their featureset it makes more sense comapring Unity Assetserver Version vs. Shiva Advanced due to the collaborative working tools and then we have.

o Shiva €1500
o Unity Pro Asset Server €1500


Unity comes cheaper when you're counting in the additional stone3Dserver or if you're looking at the dev times cycles as i think Unity is more capable and smoother as i already wrote before. But again these things depend a lot on your experience, how professional you're doing this, your hardware configuration and so on.

I do welcome the competition and such a nice licence a lot!

I wonder when GarageGames will alter their loco licence.

I have to agree that Shiva's iPhone approach is a little - well, lets say customer oriented - free? Fantastic - I have to ask is there a catch? If there isnt one then hell thats a good deal.

I'm on the Unity path anyways nowadays so I shan't be able to easily turn to Shiva for now. I have way more 'faith' in the Unity team and their approach. I'm off to the conference in a few days in Copenhagen, should get the full low down on iPhone development and that chap from Atari is speaking (Phil Harrison) so it should be good.

I should mention that unlike Garage Games Unity won't be charging on a per title basis, its a one off hit (until a higher versio is released I guess).

IPete2.

I think the Unity crew wants to follow the route of small to medium professional teams. That's what they'll trying to focus on and time after time shifting so more into the professional market. You can see this by the features they offered in the last update and the prices they offer their services for already.

Although it's likely that also in the future there will be Indie versions around, they will be stepping away from smaller Indie developers, bedroom coders, those who don't want to spend a lot of money. These customers were helpful for a specific period (income and qa wise) but i don't see them as the main target audience anymore. I also don't see them focusing on what once was director's strength, simplicity, due to this pro aspect in first place. Ah well, sometimes it feels kind of sad as it started all so fancy but maybe things will alter again and all will be fine in the end. Who knows...

Yes, but that's just the point. The advanced version of Shiva offers very little over the Unlimited version for the Indie developer. It's really just a bunch of extra tools, separate from the engine. The collaborative tools, for example, probably wouldn't even apply. The Indie version of Unity, on the other hand, has a lot of missing engine features, many of which I think an Indie developer is likely to need. Comparing the most expensive versions simply *because* they're the most expensive versions is illogical.


That's my reading of the situation. It's a shame, but I guess if we were in their position, we would be tempted to do the same thing? I mean, I know from ShadersForGames, that support requests tend to come disproportionately from the Indie users, which means you spend most of your time supporting the people who are paying you least. I can see how that could get annoying. As much as I hate to admit a cliche, time is money.

>>The advanced version of Shiva offers very little over the Unlimited version for the Indie developer.<<

That is VERY true...I agree 100%

Well, I don't like the way ShiVa is set up compared to Unity, so that pretty much settles it for me. (Although lightmap generating w/ AO is cool...) ;)

The deal sounds interesting.
Thought the strange feature list with cross relations to their server and the mention of MMO without any further note make it a bit shallow.

I'm currently developing my project with iTGB as it is a 2D title anyway. Works great and unlike on the Unity end, I might have to pay per title, but it will need 8 titles until my license was expensive as a Unity Advanced license and unlike Unity I've access to the sources which allows me to tightly integrate it with UIKit.
Will be interesting to see how Unity is going to make this possible because hack-arounds aren't an acceptable solution. Also the missing networking in the "indie" version of the iPhone license for Unity is a total joke to me. making a technology for a mobile phone thats not possible to use networking is a bit too strange to me.
The $100 per title are easy. even at worst you can be pretty sure to get in the range of breaking even if you have an interesting game.

@Gabriel
I know what you mean but i don't think i would act this way because my motivation would be different.

Well,

The good news for Unity and iPhone fans - this just in...





I love it when people listen.

IPete2.

Yes these are indeed good news and i appreciate it.

The only unlovely thing is that they came up with this at all. I think it took quite a massive amount of protest (even from the less critic ones) as well as an alternative (Shiva) to get to this point.

..thatz ma boyz :) I luv my Unity Pro :)

@ Naughty me tooo!

IPete2.

I thought Unity was pretty rad at the beginning of the year but for the money I think Shiva is amazing. I've been using the PLE and it's all straight forward. You never have to leave the IDE. You can browse the web with it, script with it, and do your level design with it ... brilliant! In addition StoneScript is as simple and intuitive as Blitz3D. For anyone who's worked with Torque and Blitz this seems to be the great compromise. I was eager for Unity but it ran like crap on my Mac Mini and I also prefer to develop in Windows, it's more productive.

They could do a lot better if they would alter a few things and handle this and that a little bit different but i guess they are somehow bullheads like the others. People just prefer making their own mistakes, no matter what it takes.

What issue are you talking about taumel?

Well, there are quite a lot of things, big and tiny ones like some systems hang whilst starting Shiva (Editor), a few bugs/glitches here and there, generally using a more elegant syntax would be nice (has no one ever used Director, Ruby in his life?), more work on the documentation (as always), the website isn't easy to navigate through, forum contains a lot of french, better marketing skills, ...

But i agree for it's price it's a steal and depending on how Unity evolves it might be the better choice for those Indies who don't want to spend a lot of money or don't want to run into a maybe "i can't/want afford the next update anymore" trap. I'm looking forward how it will evolve and finally how a V2 Shiva compares to a V2 Unity.

Anyone tested how well the linux publishing works?

Yeah, things aren't perfect but my day 1 experience with it was very pleasant. I was able to prototype my TGB game in Shiva having never used it before. I still need to do a ton of work but it seems that TGB runs very slow using scripts so the way I see it I'd have to rewrite my TGB game in C++, pay $500 to do it, and furthermore have to use TGB's inferior physics engine. I would like to see more options in Shiva, for instance I looked for an orthographic projection mode today but it didn't seem to be an option. I might mess with the FOV to see if I can mimic it though.

An orthographic view is on their roadmap for the next update...

That will be nice. This seems to be the tool I've been looking for. It seems to be a good mix of TGB and Blitz3D. I wouldn't mind a little more low level access such as Blitz3D provides but overall Shiva is very nice.

It was great that Torque provided the C++ source code but the truth of the matter is that you should not have had to dig into that low a level of source for most aspects of game programming. TGB was actually very nicely written but TGE on the other hand was quite bit messier. I ended up having to change so many things to the internal engine that can simply be controlled by Shiva as you would control such things in Blitz ... and easier. Many things work like TGB but in 3D. Additionally, there doesn't seem to be a lot of fluff. They give you what you need to make a game and that's it. Things like the XML environment variables are fantastic. The simplicity of Shiva makes it very attractive and keeps you on the path to getting your game done without worrying about a lot of the additional headaches that are associated with development.

Maybe I'll have a different opinion of it down the road but initial impressions are great. I'll be able to make my game with this tool, no futzing around and put it on the iPhone, PC, Mac, Linux, and Wii if I ever get the chance. The fact that it's also got a web browser plugin is icing on the cake. This is what a new age tool should be. Super cross-platform, all the editors built in, physics, networking, and elegance. I can't think of anything that's missing from this software in the general sense.

Well, i never understood how someone seriously could consider a GG product but i guess i'm also coming from a different direction.

C64 Basic, Seka, AsmOne, GFA Basic, ... , BlitzMax, Director, Flash, Ruby, Unity.

I also tested it and found it interesting, I like how you can setup different views and name them whatever you want. Also they have editor for everything possible, it very well done tool that will need some time to mature, but for version 1.6.2 is really showing lots of promisse

Answering the question from the locked thread ...

Yes you need to program to use it. It has a scripting language based on LUA.

Thanks for the answer. LUA is pretty easy to learn though isn`t it? So there`s no C knowledge needed then?

Jason.

It's very easy.

It's easier than riding a unicycle while blind-folded.