25,000 brits to cough up £300 each

http://www.gamesdog.co.uk/news/news.phtml/7984/9008/Game-firms-fine-25000-file-sharers.phtml

This takes the biscuit though:

> This comes after a landmark court-ruling earlier in the week saw a gamer who downloaded Dream Pinball from a file-sharing site being ordered to pay £16,000 in damages to the game's US developers, Topware Interactive

Exactly how did the gamer manage to 'damage' the company by £16,000?

Indeed.

They didn't. £10,000 of it was recovery of prosecution costs.

She was asked to pay a £300 out of court settlement, but refused. A decision which backfired in spectacular fashion.

I'm glad they're all getting fined.

Shouldn't they rather pay the file-sharers, since downloading games for free has scientifically proven increased the sales of games.

Me too. Just a shame its taken years for anybody to bite the bullet and chase a successful prosecution.
Scientifically proven where? Or do you mean its the main excuse/reason that most pirates come up with for doing it?

Mmm, possibly by being factually seen to distribute the links to the download or the download itself or just created new uploads that could be statistically tracked.

The law can be just, and it can just downright suck.
also,
While i do not personally agree with outright piracy, it is (rarely) on occasion necessary and morally justified despite what the law dictates.

Its a 2 sided coin with hypocrites on both sides of it.

Its a 'chicken and egg' situation.

If people hadn't been ripping off the industry for decades with no recourse, these protection methods that everybody whinges about probably wouldn't even exist.

True but years ago people created software for the love of it, now its BIG business everyone wants thier share.

As i said a 2 sided coin, if 'the industry' (to name a few, not just music) had not been ripping consumers, artists and well, everyone off for decades with no recourse, then piracy would be much less profound and the whole culture of "the corporate man is a bad man", "welcome to the machine" & "ya' all want a single?.." wouldn't exist either.

(or chicken and egg as you so elegantly put it :)

It's a shame that the people that make the biggest fuss are often making rubbish that people aren't buying into. Maybe if they made must have games in the first place people might actually buy them.

I just hope that developers that make games like Assasins Creed release demos if they are going to start prosecuting. That was a really difficult game to judge with very mixed reviews. I thought it was a load of rubbish which might be why there was no demo. Would suck to have downloaded something to try before buying and get caught up in that web. $50 - $60 isn't something to be sniffed at these days and for the most part this problem is only prevalent in a few big PC titles.

Consoles you can usualy get the demo in a magazine or rent the game first.

Ahhh the age old pirate debate.

This debate, like any religious debate will never besatisfactorily resolved as the two sides are simply too far apart. All we can do is give our opinions and see how many people either agree or disagree.

The story mentioned is yet another case of over the top, exaggerated-to-make-a-point punishments, no different than in medieval times when people were hanged for stealing the kings deer from the forest or drowned for being a "heretic". The point of the punishment is to spread fear not to actually stop the practice, if indeed that is even possible (I don't think it is, practically speaking).

Both sides site "facts" supported by "statistics", both can provide persuasive arguments supporting their point of views, but again like religion it all comes down to the individual "believer".

I personally believe people should pay for what they use because that supports an industry that they nominally enjoy, and supporting that industry will presumably pay dividends in new and exciting products which they will also presumably enjoy.

On the other hand, if the enjoyment of a product is being stopped by local unavailability, ridiculous pricing schemes, or that product is simply not deemed as being worth the price being asked... go for it. The act of "pirating" in these cases will ultimately encourage the apparatus preventing enjoyment of their product into modifying their behavior (as the music industry will do), or a suitable replacement will show up that provides a product that is accessible and enjoyable (as many artists are doing in releasing their music for free on their websites).

This is true for all media products, TV, music, movies, games, etc. The world is changing and with it the marketplace.

-Gooney

That's actually a fair point.

When I bought Paintshop Pro 9 (download version), it was pretty cheap on Corel's US site, but DOUBLE the price on the Corel UK site. Its a download, so, why?!

I just bought it from the US site and fed it an American address. Its not like its cost them any more to get the product to me and I can't see justification for doubling the price simply because of where I live.

GfK: US vs UK prices have always been justified by saying UK support costs are double that of the US. I can see some truth in that, but the real reason is that we (in the UK) are being charged only as much as the market will bear.

Got to love capitalism.

I know all the articles are "sued for downloading" etc, but as far as Im aware its for the "uploading" part of the fileshareing that they are being sued for.

This is why ppl can be sued for 16K damages and the like, they are not damageing the company by getting the software, BUT rather by redistrubuting it.

It's the same with iTunes music downloads. We get charged more money, than the americans do. There is no reason for that extra charge, except, we as mugs, are willing to pay.

Pricing between Europe and the US isn't simply a case of what the market will bear nor is it a case of higher support costs, it has far more to do with things like VAT and the different artist unions that have to make sure they get a piece of the pie.

Evoking the old "what the market will bear" argument is a bunch of rubbish, Europeans until very recently had no where near the disposable income that Americans have had access to (and in many cases still do not), and for most of the post war years have exhibited far greater unemployment numbers than the US, which leads one to conclude that prices should be lower in Europe than they have been in the US.

Something else is artificially driving up European prices although prices recently have come way way down compared to what they were just 10-15 years ago (relatively speaking), they are all thing considered still higher in Europe.

In a gross over simplification of what actually exists the US economy is driven by debt driven economics, and in Europe the economy is driven by Socio-economics.

-Gooney

Peter Moore fights back.I am in awe that someone who works for EA is that sensible. Wow. Maybe they really are trying to turn over a new leaf?

Yes you would. Except quite matter of factly, Europeans are willing to pay more for the same goods (and we're willing to wait for it longer as well). It has nothing to do with unemployment or disposable income, it's simply what the market will bear. Case in point: Fuel prices. They rise until the breaking point, and then they settle to just below that.

I don't think people in Europe are content to wait longer and pay more, I think they just don't have any choice.

I would be interested to know what evidence they have against those people that they are fining, if it doesn't stand up in court it could be those companies that have egg on their face. Innocent until proven guilty is still (mostly) the docterine in the UK, at least unless your poor, asain, or from an eastern european country, or the victim of the latest round of media hysteria.

Darkheart

Flameduck,

No offense mate but your off your rocker.

Petrol in Europe is more expensive; but not because people are willing to pay high prices for petrol (and thus generate profit for a company) but because they are convinced that the tax component of the cost of a liter of petrol is a justifiable social expense (and thus provide money for social use).

Theres a difference there. Fact is that in most of Europe the majority cost of a liter of fuel is taxes, and people accept THAT they do not necessarily accept a higher price of the fuel itself.

Products and services cost much more in Europe than in the US because most European nations subscribe to some sort of social welfare program which most people think is a good thing. Europeans have universal health care, most Europeans do not have to pay for university, unemployment insurance, guaranteed vacation times, parental leave, on and on, these programs cost money, money that citizens pay with direct taxes and indirect taxes, which leads to higher end user costs.

The US has practically none of those social programs or at most very limited (relatively speaking) versions. Which grants them greater disposable income, which increases competition for that income which drives down prices.

We have the same basic system in Europe but on top of if is the social responsibility tax which adds to the price of everything and thus decreases disposable income which retards the amount of product actually sold.

-Gooney

Same difference. There's always a choice.

That's nice. Except guess what? The difference in cost of a liter of petrol in Europe and the US is much, much higher than 100%, so it's not (entirely) because the taxation.

Sure. The net tax on petrol in Denmark is roughly 70%. The price difference between petrol in Denmark and in the US (NYC) is roughly 300%. Are you saying that the US Federal, New York State, or New Youk City government is subsidizing the price of gas in New York City? Where else would this enormous price difference come from, if not because of market forces?

I realize that the average European citizen pays more in taxes than the average US citizen, and that's probably why companies get away with ripping off European customers. We are accustomed to paying more for less, and you can simply blame higher prices on taxation and people will blame the government instead. It's a win/win situation.

However it should also be noted that certain International companies (McDonalds and Coca-Cola spring to mind) pay no taxes at all in Denmark, yet their products aren't cheaper than companies who sell a competing product, but do pay taxes. Why do you think that is?

@Gooneybird:
Yup, thats the eternal discussion: I dont want my money to be given to people who dont want to work but i do want to receive money when i become unemployed or otherwise unable to generate my own income. US chose for self-reliance, Europe chose for a social savety net.

Now what will happen when we all start buying our cd's, dvd's electronics & books online from US sites. Oh wait, that's already happening....

Ever since Al Lowe was cheated out of descent profits on Leisure suit Larry i haven't had much moral problems with softwarepirating. The money isn't going to those who created the product and the shiny box and highres trailer tell nothing about the actually content.
I'll try the real thing first before i fork over any money, otherwise it would be like marrying someone without ever having sex with that person before.... i just opened up whole new can of discussion didn't i :)

By the way, i'll pay good money for a Lands of Lore 1 remake hint hint hint (and i'll murder someone for the sourcecode)

Do I possibly smell a rat in this whole affair?

SCENERIO #1
-------------------------------------
Company makes average game
Company sells game at higher value than it's worth (£40 for example)
Few people buy it legally. Company makes small profit

SCENERIO #2
-------------------------------------
Company makes average game
Company sells game at higher value than it's worth
Many people download and share (it's way overpriced to buy legally)
Company sues thousands of 'pirates' and makes BIG profit!!!


My cynical mind thinks companies secretly WANT and ENCOURAGE people to share so they can nail Mr and Mrs Pirate in the courts!
Kind like leaving £100 inside your car with the door unlocked and waiting for a chancer to swipe the loot


I am wondering how the courts / lawyers can handle 25,000 cases though?


This is slightly worrying if you happen to be a victim of Drive-By-Wifi surfers. Those who hook up to your unsecured WIFI connection

I wonder whether being registered with a file-share site automatically makes you a suspect pirate?

They can't. They're betting on the majority of everyone just ponying up the cash. The vast majority aren't going to fight it in court, and even if they do, chances are good they'll lose because largely of how technologically ignorant the judicial system is.

Nah. It's slightly worrying, because it's a blatant invasion of privacy. It's essentially a private, unauthorized wiretap and should be illegal in countries that aren't China or Iran.

I'm fairly sure that to these companies, simply having an Internet connection, or maybe just a computer automatically makes you a suspect pirate. God I hope none of these companies are going to release any of the games I want. If they do, I'm going to pirate it just out of spite.

Say. Anyone know if Atari got the rights to Civilization IV: Colonization? If they do I'll have to cancel my pre-order.

The ironic thing is, the game in question, "Dream Pinball", is far far from original!!!
Now we need someone to claim IP rights to computer Pinball and chase after Topware Interactive.

I think this is something to do with EULA and copyright.Maybe wrong
you know how finiky the yanks are.

Sounds like a novel new way for lawyers to make money doing nothing.

Except it's in Britain.

Not exactly novel. The MPAA have been doing this for years! Their mixed success is amongst other things what got Peter Moore all fired up.

Personally EA Sports don't make any games I care for, but I welcome someone in the industry, who thinks treating their customers like thieving cretins probably isn't the best idea in the world.

About petrol: The not-yet-taxed price of petrol is almost exactly the same in most countries, but European countries tend to apply higher taxes so the differences in the final price are significant.

Not sure why this matter should bother people either way. If you don't pirate software you won't get done.

Well that's an interesting chart. Source? For starters it's somewhat inaccurate regarding the price of petrol in Denmark. I don't remember petrol being that cheap in the last year at least.

Says who?

How can you get done if you've done nothing wrong? Am I missing something?

FlameDuck, yes that chart is old, but why are debating statistical information? The ratio in the chart (old prices) USA:Denmark is about 85c/l:200c/l = 0.42, and the current prices are USA:Denmark 0.73e/l : 1.57e/l = 0.46, pretty much the same difference in prices.

You can find lots of similar charts with google
Chart 1
Chart 2
Chart 3

Because ISP's will get their DNS information incorrect, incorrectly blaming wrong people.

How do you know this for sure?

Just a thought ..

What if you are registered with a fileshare site and somebody has hacked your account without your knowledge and started uploading/downloading commercial stuff?
Would that make YOU the guilty one?

Surely each individual one of the 25,0000 brits being fingered should have their PC's checked to see if they have the game installed and whether they have a receipt?

My concern regarding the law which has passed allowing companies to request the registered user details is just how easy this thing is open to massive abuse
How will we know if they pass on our details to third parties?
Horrible. Privacy gone completely out of the window

Exactly. But they probably wont need to pass it on, they will simply 'loose' the disks - seems to be fashionable at the moment :/

->"Surely each individual one of the 25,0000 brits being fingered should have their PC's checked to see if they have the game installed and whether they have a receipt?"
Would not work either. Do you keep purchase reciept of every item of property in your home? I sure as hell don't so there is no way to prove i bought say.. my couch.

Surely they have to prove you pirated the software (some shonky ISP record isn't good enough)?! Otherwise, it has no business going to court.

No as I said further up, they have to prove that at least part of a packet of the software was UPLOADED from your computer after you have the complete package.

Basicly if you download it. It might be, to the best of your knowlage, a demo of the game/application, which is (as long as it has the txt file saying "distrbute with this") leagal.

They have to prove that you downlaoded it, THEN knowing that it was the complete software, allowed someone to upload it.

Ok, yes, they MIGHT tell you they are sueing you without this evidance, and they might win in court with a non tecnical jury/judge/madgistrate, but the bottom line is, most of these ppl they are sueing DID upload it

Maybe they should just sue clear repeat offenders?

Here's a novel idea. Maybe they should just write it off as an expense of doing business (which they probably do already), and make games worth actually buying in the first place?