So, xmas Max3D, yay or nay?

It seems Mark is progressing well with Max3D even though GL is giving him probs.

Who here thinks that we'll see an initial release of Max3D for xmas?

Were talking 4 months. Personally I don't see it being released for xmas.

Please don't derail this thread.

Doubt it. But I don't plan to start anything in 3D in the near future anyway so I don't care right now. I'll be at least another 5-6 months with Magicville I think.

I would be seriously surprised if it was out then - seems like too much work is left to do.

Yeah I've been monitoring the progress of MagicVille. It seems to be shaping up nicely. :)

As for Max3D, well I'm going to have at least $200 ready as that's what I estimate it will cost.

I gues we'll have to wait and see but if Mark could pop in here and let us know for sure then that would be good also. :)

I would rather it wasn't released for Christmas..
a. I don't want it rushed
b. It's not exactly a toy or present is it, so why is Christmas so meaningful as a release date

Because that's when Mark said it will be released. To tell the truth though he didn't exactly say it'll be this christmas.

Christmas....year?

if it was not this christmas surly mark would have used a year christmas 09. without mark confirming we will realy never now until its available.

From what? The jejune speculation?

Oh. I thought it was dedecember speculation?

</coat>

;-)

Heh, I just read the log back to front and thought "Sibly" had gone nuts - all this mention of Quake BSPs. I was starting to wonder what kind of "Mickey Mouse" thing he was working on.

Can Max3D match/catch Leadwerks Engine? Mmm, I'm not so sure. However, I hope it is a hard-fought scrap for dominance.

For starters I don't like the lower case 'd' - it should be Max3D, not Max3d. I suggest "Sibly" sorts that out for starters as I don't like it.

I'll offer 5:1 against Max3d being released in a fully functional, documented form, to purchase, before 31/12/08, maximum bet I'm prepared to take is £50.

Darkheart

I'd take 100:1 odds, if gambling wasn't illegal in Denmark. Seriously, there is no way Max3D/Max3d is gonna be remotely ready by next Christmas.

You're much more likely to get actually abducted by aliens, or fall victim to a terrorist attack, than getting Max3D this year.

> Please don't derail this thread.

Aww shucks. ;)

Maybe there will be a beta release for Christmas. Sounds like Mark is struggling with GL on the Mac, so maybe we will get a PC pre release this time around :).

Who cares? I think most of us dont want DX10 or DX11 or OGL2.X or OGL 3.X but a simple and stable DX9 Port. And most of us are Windows User.. not MAC and not Linux. If Mark makes his fokus (only) on ogl..Ok. But not with me.

jm2c

It sounds like there's still quite a bit of work to do unless we're just not getting a clear enough message about how much is complete. I guess it's possible it would be done by Christmas but I'm thinking early-mid next year. But hey, Mark, surprise us.

Heh, he is probably watching every post on here. And I would preffer DX10 eventually, but Abrexxes is right, a stable DX9 would work fine.

I think those hoping for anything other than OpenGL are going to be disappointed.

Yeah, I am thinking about just buying Leadwerks and TrueVision3D, but I want to hear any type of new before I do, if Max3D will have a new DX and OpenGL, then I dont mind waiting... Mark, if your reading this, dont think, just say it. ;-)

Sorry for double posting, but yeah after reading Marks new worklog, does not sound like DX is gonna be put in it. =\ But still, I am greatefull Mark has done everything he has. Keep it up Mark!

Ahhhh, yet another xmas speculation release date thingy! :)

It wouldnt be a Christmas run-up without one! ;)

Dabz

Why?, Despite the whole OGL3 fiasco, OGL2.1 is still more than adequate to power the next gen B3D. OpenGl 2.1 is as powerful as D3D9 if not D3D10. (Plus a 'simple' B3D to DX9 port would be no such thing as it would likely require a rewrite of almost the entire product.)

I think if he DOESNT focus on it, he will loose a lot of custom/interest too, as this is why a lot of people have bought MAX, -to get away from the windows 'cage'. The ability to easily program for all three main platforms is its most attractive selling point IMO.

And no, i dont think it will be out by Xmas, but it would be nice :)

I'm with D4NM4N on this

I don't like GL because of lousy shader tools for artists. Having said that, it doesn't sound like max 3d will be sticking to any standard implementation anyway, so probably a waste of time on that front.

I don't like GL because of lousy shader tools for artists. Having said that, it doesn't sound like max 3d will be sticking to any standard implementation anyway, so probably a waste of time on that front.

Bit of a pain since artists typically won't have much interest in buying Bmax, programming or compiling. Hopefully there will be a way to assign materials to meshes via scripts.

My guess would be that if we will get something till christmas this year then it more will be in an open beta stage, maybe like with the first BlitzMax release or a little bit worse.

What i like from the worklog is that we also do get a shadow option beside of shadow maps. I don't like shadow maps on low range systems for instance. Theoretically i don't care a lot if it's OpenGL or DirectX as long as it works. Practically things are likely looking different again but time will tell how much driver bugfixing will be done for Max3D or if there will be a better API/driver support when Max3D will see the light of day.

I'm also curious if rumours were right about that Apple will move torwards Larrabee and how they might make usage of hopefully good driverwork from Intel then, which Intel opposed to their current work really have to provide if they want their product to be a success. Anyway maybe this also could mean a better driver world on the Apple side in the end.

Of course you expect one of the key features of BlitzMax, crossplatform availability, also for Max3D.

Shader tools are something i honestly don't expect from Max3D at least not with it's first release and as i've learnt from other tools like Unity most people also won't write shaders at all. It's better providing a wisely choosen set of options which you can combine. Step two would be a graphical shader editor but i strongly doubt that the community will come up with reasonable working and tested shaders for this and that.

Well, I'm a Mac user, I don't care for either Windows or Linux and it does not affect me at all whether Max3D will ever see the light of day or not - it's a product I'm not the least interested in because I simply don't need it. (A 64-bit, multi-threaded version of BlitzMax would interest me, but it's not coming.)

That being said, from what I can read in Mark's worklog, I doubt that Max3D will be ready for christmas. His comments suggest that he is having a great time developing it, but none of his statements make me believe that the product is even anywhere near entering alpha stage. And for a christmas release, it should already be in a (public) beta stadium right now.

So, no, you won't be spending your christmas money 2008 on Max3D.

The chances of that make me think of the chances of the Iraq war ending, people walking on mars, racism ending and a dominatrix who only 'whips' my grilled cheeses together while i'm working on software!

All by the end of this year ofcourse =P

Based on his recent work log, 4 months? No way...I'd say Spring 2009 at the earliest for a stable release. Maybe dec 08, jan 09 for a preview copy.

Wait.... Where does it even say he is working on "Max3d"?

Mark Sibly's worklog. It's been there for a while.

Dark Half, have you been living in a hut in a wood or something? :)

I would not mind if a (possibly) unstable beta version was released this year. It would let people try it out and mark would get a lot of comments and suggestions.

Based on previous experience from BRL.

I would say that if Mark continues with the "Max3d" development and does not once again change direction. You will see something VERY late 2009. That I think is realistic, it might also be too late for most guys here wanting to start a new project "soonish".

To be fair to his customers, Mark really needs to communicate on how realistic his initial prediction of "Before Xmas" was.

To keep your customers hoping for a release in a few months, knowing possibly that it will not happen, just sucks. Please, please, communicate.

Just my thoughts.

Unless i'm missing something I think his point was that it's not posted anywhere official. "Where is it?"...a worklog. That's like a diary where you can say all kinds of crazy funk.

In Marks mind he's probobly thinking, "I never said christmas" (officially)

At the moment I consider Max3d to be vapourware until proven otherwise. Since it was announced that there would be a forthcoming 3D module in May 2005 there has been nothing: No demos, screenshots or videos, only some entrys in Mark's journal. From it's original projected project time of 6 months it is now over 3 and 1/2 years (assuming there is no launch before the end of this year).

I can't help but feel that Mark must have rather lost interest in the Blitz project or just run out of steam on it; in the same way so many of us have with our own projects. It seems it is now more of a hobby (or possibly cross to bear) than a business. It's obvious to me that if he really wanted to he could have had Max3d out ages ago, at least for Win32 (which must be the majority of the sales).

I confidently expect people who are still waiting for Max3d to still be waiting in a year's time.

I know some people will flame this post, and the thread will probably be deleted/locked but it's about time we had some plain speaking here on this topic.

Darkheart

I don't know - Mark's last few worklogs have sounded kind of upbeat and pretty solid about Max3d - wouldn't you say?

I suppose you could complain about the long path he's taken (Max3d, then a game creator, back to Max3d), but it sounds like he's back into it now and I fully expect Max3d to turn up.

And you never know, he might surprise us with at least a partial/beta release before Xmas.

That's exactly what i think of the situation. How long before mark loses interest and changes direction again and you guys waiting, have to wait again for mark's next move/decision?

Well they could wait or they could just do like MadJack, use Blitz3d and get a game published on Steam with rave reviews !!

I also fully expect Max3d to make an appearance at some point in the future. Until it does there are many alternatives available.
The "vapourware" tag to try and get a reaction has been used before without result !

Well, as long as there are next to zero communication, it's almost impossible to know what's going on at BRL HQ.
To me, it sounds like Mark is back on some sort of track, but how far along it is, is anyone's guess.
Still, seeing how long he's been working on the engine, I'm guessing Mark has tons of sourcecode lying around.
It would be a matter of putting pieces of it together, generate som new pieces, tweaking others, and presenting it in a nice module.. :p

well looking at the facts:

1. Hes been changing directions, max3d, game creator, IDE, ect, then back to max3d. So he hasn't spent 3 and a half years developing one thing.
2. He already has existing 3d code from blitz3d, and his earlyer attempt at max3d. To speed up developement.
3. His worklogs show that hes been working strictly on max3d.

I believe we'll see >SOMETHING< by xmas this year (fingers crossed).

Hmmm, I wonder if there'll be a 2D module for Max3D.

Well his last "before Christmas" prediction for Max3D was Christmas 2005. So don't hold your breath.

I don't think anybody is questioning that Max3D will turn up eventually. It's just that the time scale people seem to expect, is contrary to what the evidence shows is likely.

Unfortunately man hours and lines of source code are very poor metrics for progress. Progress is measured in working functionality.

Sure he has. That "one thing" has simply changed over time, as is often the case with IT projects. After all you're trying to hit a moving target (probably more so with 3D engines, than most other projects).

Yeah. Too bad false starts don't really speed up development.

You must be reading a different worklog than me. Or have a different opinion on what the term "Back into Max3d tomorrow" means.

There would have to be wouldn't there? It being written in C++ and all, I doubt it'll integrate with the existing BlitzMAX graphics library very elegantly. Of course I'm entirely prepared to be proven wrong here.

You might be right as I've completely lost track what is being written. This appeared in the worklog
which suggests a x-platform 3D Bmax module. If that's the case I just wonder where the 2D engine will come from.
If it's just a 3D module then what sound engine will it use? Lots of questions as, if it's a product and improves BMax failings I'd go for it but probably not interested if it's 3D and using Max2D and the Bmax Audio systems.

There's almost no way it's going to use Max2D in any way since the whole approach to 3D is quite different and more complex. I would think Mark would have to rewrite special 2D functions to do what Max2D does currently, or make Max2D compatible with his new system.

Well obviously Max3d won't have a 2d module as that is already there in BMax. Much like Blitz3d you can either use the 2d or the 3d engine but not both at the same time.

GLMax2D could easily be used with an OpenGL based engine. All one would have to do is render the 3D world, and then set the projection matrix and render states. This can be accomplished through some certain functions of the GLMax2DDriver() whose names escape me at the moment.

I also fully expect Max3D to come to fruition.

But... nothing has been seen yet ("screenshot or it didn't happen"). Technically Max3D is vaporware.

Nay,

In my opinion, BRL was successfull because BBasic, Blitz3D and BlitzPlus were diferrent than other options in the market like Dbasic etc. Even though they were not promoted, I guess they were popular.

They were stable packages with everything in them, easy to use and hard to master. Since Blitzmax, Mark is aiming towards a different route, Max3D for all platforms, game creator etc.

I think Mark should concentrate on what we want and what's been working so far. If I want a 3d engine or a game creator, there is always profesionnal alternatives in the market which are proven and stable also powerful.

Just my thoughts.

You mean like BlitzMax.

A Bmax+max3d would be an "everything with it" product. The reason it appears complicated and messed up at present is because everyone is doing something a little 'special' or different with it to get what they need, plus its still in early versioning. I doubt most would need to mess about and break down walls if it natively 'did' 3d. Noobs don't care how it all works or how it's put together (ie, by module or integrated), nor do they need to know. They just want to install "it", type a few simple commands and have something fun happen.

If polished up and marketed properly as a 'game maker' package it could be a revolution in the B3D/DBP/A6 type of language market. -Especially because of the fact it's cross platform, fast, easy to use/learn when used like B3D/BASIC (plus optional tools for the more professional/advanced proggers like OOP, strict, c++ interface etc)

You'd better be proven wrong. The alternative sounds like a very painful option.

I'm one of those 'noobs' D4NM4N and I totally disagree with you. I can always use C++ or C# or any other market standart language instead of documentation lacked Blitzmax. Reason I love Blitz3D is not "typing something and having sthing fun happen". I want to make a game not tinker and bother with the lacking features of the tool.

But i did say "If polished up and marketed properly" that includes the whole thing (like manuals, proper online support and other general 'shine').
What i WAS saying is -IF- the two (BM+M3D mod) could be made into a new game creation product (with a proper manual) then it would be awesome for noobs and advanced users alike.
BlitzMax after all is only an enhanced version of BASIC/Blitz and can be used as such (OR it can be more structured if desired).

I agree Bmax+3D at the moment in a fragmented/disorganised state, simply because ;

A) officially there is no 3D (which is what i just said too) tempting new users to jump straight into a complex 3rd party, possibly OOP based mod.
B) no proper help/manual/tutorials yet with non-cryptic descriptions and command examples.
C) Debugger needs some work (but id rather they focus on getting some 3d for now)

It is only harder to learn than B3D simply for these reasons (as it is practically the same if you take away all the (-optional-) extra stuff)

(Plus, i wouldnt say you were a 'noob' as you know B3D so only need to learn the syntax changes and can use it in virtually the same way structurally. I was talking about total and utter noobs who need to learn to "type something so something fun happens" before they can hope to turn it into a game. You dont apply to that because you already know how to program!)

@markcw

Errr... yes you can. However, the drawimage in B3D was pure 2D while Drawimage in Bmax is 2D-in-3D so would be able to be used in a 3D world quite easily.
@ImaginaryHuman
Well not quite so different as 2D is using 3d surfaces it's just the camera that's off. However, MAX2D could be used for any GUI interface.
Anyway, missing the point. If there is a new MAX3D module it either
a) comes as a complete B3D like product with it's own Audio engine, 2D engine etc st
or
b) uses what's already there.
If the answer is a) then I'll be quite peeved we couldn't have Bmax updated and if b) then there is going to have to be some serious upgrading.
<edit>
c) Something else
d) None of the above

If not, i'm sure a MAXsound3D module wont be far behind it. (and i reckon there will be plenty of unofficial ones before that, if there isnt already)

In which case, if there is a 2D-in-3D 2d engine for Max3D (phew!) and also a 3D Audio engine (which there HAS to be... doesn't there?) and there will HAVE to be render-to-texture support and there is, likely, to be shaders.. It might be the ***2D*** language I am looking for.

Every company needs to expand its market, or go out of business. Particularly a company as generous with its products as BRL, would need to expand into newer markets a bit faster than most (like say TGC).

Well I'm sure that if I'm not, someone will fix it. Only question is whether BRL are going to be as generous with their 3D module source code as they have been with the BlitzMAX modules, otherwise it could be a bit of a pain.

What features does BlitzMAX lack, compared to Blitz3D?

God I hope not!

We did have a screenshot and even a demo. A spaceship with some lights, if I recall correctly. Weren't there also some physics related screenshots?

I am not holding my breath for xmas release. It would be great if it was released, especially if it had the features and power of engines like TrueVision.

When I think about Max3d, and the possibily of a release, I suddenly, somehow feel sad and tired.

I was in with the beta 'crew' briefly, I think that was at least 18 months ago, even back then there was Max3D prototype code.

Going by that older code and Marks worklogs, I believe he knows what he wants to do and he's doing it. Rewrites & refinement takes a long time, but I guarantee he's learned so much along the way. Eventually we should end up with a solid & usable 3D engine.

I've not done any coding in months, I lost interest when I quit smoking (weird huh? :) But I'm starting to get interested again and I look forward to trying Max3D when it comes out, in time for the Sun worship day or otherwise.

the spaceship was just a model with a shader material on that rotated in 3d. It could easily have been a swiped shader stuck on a generic model. The kind of thing Antony used to throw together in a weekend.

@Mark
One thing i would be interested in, okay there are many more but let's stick to this one, is if BlitzMax/Max3D will make usage of multicore designs at least in a way that physic calculations are beeing executed on another core than the logic if there is a multicore system beeing availbale?

And we are still waiting for it almost four years later.


I agree I have gigabytes of source code lying around but it would take years to sift through it.



The thing I am seeing here is if he doesnt produce some working demos or post something concrete he will loose out to other engines out there so when Max3d does finally show people will look at it and think who cares I already can do x in y engine.


Mark like all people has to eat, I dont think Max3d or even blitz is his top priority. Its more like a hobby, if you was working on it 24/7 he would have some real good stuff to show by now.


Why not rewrite the Max graphics library to cater for everything rather like the Blitz3d engine caters for 2d over 3d etc.

IMHO if you want Max3d look to the other engines that are already available and are being improved every day by dedicated people, from what I see mark isnt as dedicated to Blitz as he used to be.

That'd be nice, but, who am I kidding, we've hardly got anything for the past couple years so why expect something now?

Ahem.. obviously.

Plash: yeah I know what you mean, this is why I have moved to another language to use that instead.

Blitz is a loverly language but it still needs loads to make it perfect, a few would be threading, full GUI support. What happened to the MaxGUI thing that was supposed to be coming out for Max (this is why Mark ditched MaxGUI) it would be nice to see something solid coming from BRL so that its customer base can at least feel they have something to look forward to.

From what I see I would give it a couple of years and then it will be retired for something else or Mark will loose interest entirely and just call it a day.

Didn't Skid take over the MaxGUI development?
Maybe he can share some info on it..
(and perhaps also something cool from inside BRL HQ)

Mark was supposed to be working on a gxLib



Never saw hide nor hair of it since then, sounded good to rather like Max3d

EdzUp; I think that was apart of the game creator "editor"...

gxLib IIRC was supposed to supersede MaxGUI with fading windows etc, Aero interface like features using wxWidgets.

This could be a memory implant but doesn't Sebholl look after MaxGUI and didn't Mark give up when he saw Brucey's wxmax?

And by that does that mean that Max3d is dead in the water what with Leadwerks engine being so feature rich, and Minib3d being free?

... the latest worklog would suggest not.

It would seem that many only visit the forums to gripe about the lack of Max3D.

People feel they have a right as customers to express their discontent at the lack of progress, which they do, unfortunately when they do we get total silence from BRL. I think some people, not naming any names, go too far.

Well you're dead wrong there. Blitz puts food on Marks table, so despite what it might look like to the casual observer, Mark is dead keen on seeing Blitz do well. More likely I think Blitz is doing too well, as long as sales of old products are still selling, there is little incentive for BRL to release any new products. We'll see Max3D when sales dry up or Mark needs more spending money.

No. It means Max3D is going to have to be fucking awesome to compete. It has to compete with the features of Leadwerks, the stability of TV3D, the easy integration of MiniB3D, and still be priced reasonably, compared to its main competition. Sure there are people who are going to buy it just because it's BRL (you know who you are, you stood in line 3 days to replace your iPhone, with the iPhone 3G), but those sales are only going to go so far.

Why is that unfortunate? Mark is the only one with all the facts that make up The Big Picture(tm). Everything else is pure speculation (this thread being a particularly good example). Why waste time fighting windmills?

just got of the phone with my friend Mark, I think he told me "yay Christmas" which could mean that BlitzMax 3d will come for chirstmas

don't fuel the fire.. ;)

what fire? I have a friend named mark, we talked about max3d for christmas, I axked him yay or nay, he say yay christmas :P

is that fulling fire if I let you all know what my friend mark told me?

Doesn't that reaffirm my point? Why stick around only to gripe about a nonexistent product? If all BRL gives you is silence, find abother product that you do like. I guess I am irrational for saying that. But it is fairly standard for companies not to comment on unreleased products or give time-tables.

The fact is, people who gripe most are most likely those who will never finish anything in any language. However, most of them also genuinely feel that with the new toy they'll somehow miraculously create the new game/app within a day or two.

Barney

waits for the blitz forum police to come and get you :-)

If you can't wait etc try another engine, many out there are excellent.
Obviously there will be a learning curve too but didn't you have that with blitz3d too?

I don't think anyone could have said that truth better.

Why, what do they owe you?
They are morally(not contractually) obligated to provide bug fixes to existing products but that is it. (namely in the case of BlitzMAX itself, however even the 'moral' obligations for updating B3D and Blitzplus are well over)

Anything else is just a bonus and heroic deed :D


While Leadwerks is a terrific looking AAA standard engine, it is;
(a)bound to be more expensive,
(b)windows only
(c)total overkil for simple/casual/retro style games.

As for minib3d, its a great job si is doing at faithfully and exactly recreating b3d and hope it continues, but it is not a native product and Max3D will likely be much more powerful than b3d was by all accounts. MiniB3D will be far from obsolete, as it is great for direct code conversions.
I think people will want to buy Max3D simply because its a natively supported product making it easier and more familiar to new users etc.

Many B3D/max people want a complete package from a single source that intergrate seamlessly easily and are universally supported (weather as a single thing or as a language with modules is irrelevant), max+max3d would be just that, the new "B3D" which is what everyone wants.
This alone takes a big chunk of the market back from the competition. Plus, its not all about how the graphics look, i would rather a stable solid simple max3D engine that does everything b3d can do (with shadows and shaders etc) than have the cutting edge DX stuff which i would likely never use anyway.

Max3d beating Leadwerks engine. TBH I cant see that, I would love to see some demos of the new engine even if they are unstable etc I would love to see some. Or at least some screen shots of the engine in action. Yeah Max3d will be natively supported but if the support is almost no-existant then thats a bad point.

I agree si has done an amazing job with minib3d TBH I think mark should take minib3d onboard and push it further than it is at the moment, forging it into the engine he wants Max3d to be.

The thing that is here is it will have to sell well for Mark to warrant the time on it, if he takes months on it and it only sells a few copies then its not an incentive to go forward. This is why Minib3d and leadwerks engine is already eating into Max3d's market not to mention there are other engines out there that are doing that also. Max3d will be a small fish is a big pond.


IIRC Mark said once that he couldnt live on Blitz's sales alone and was taking time out to work on a game that he would sell. If sales were that good surely Max3d would already be here weve been waiting since 2005?

Because when they're not silent we hear more of what's going on at BRL.


Yes, I was basically agreeing with you.


I think any company owes their customers a stable, reliable product and if they don't provide that then their business will suffer. Rather than it being a moral or legal issue I think it's more about ensuring they have a good product that is worth buying.

Why not?

Yeah. So would everyone. The problem is that in order to make a state-of-the-art demo there are a few prerequisites.

1) Top-notch, state-of-the-art content.
2) An experienced developer who:
2a) Has previous experience with a state-of-the-art 3D engine.
2b) Has an intimate knowledge of Max3D.
2c) Enjoys working with incomplete, buggy, undocumented software.
2d) Can commit full-time to the project.
2e) Doesn't already have a job.
2f) Wants to live and work in New Zealand.

As you can see there are quite a few hurdles to overcome, particularly since some of the requirements are pretty close to mutually exclusive.

Why? If it was reasonable, he could just take proper B3D on board and work with that. However since he chose a different path, it seems obvious Mark wants to do something out of reach of MiniB3D/Blitz3D and its rather limited scope.

Oh it will. With games like Tank Universal and Fairway Solitaire quickly becomming the new Skidmarks and Worms, Blitz is going to get a whole lot of attention soon.

I don't really think so. MiniB3D and Leadwerks are miles a part in terms of target market, and I'm confident that when Max3D does eventually arrive, it's going to eat those markets up right quick. It might not be as revolutionary as when Blitz3D came out (because there are other players than TGC this time around), but I'm guessing it's going to be pretty close.

That's not the way I remember it, and since he hasn't released a game, I'd say that not factually accurate.

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in Denmark (and New Zealand too, I reckon) you work less when you're loaded, and more when you're skint. So if sales weren't that good, Mark wouldn't have spent all that time refining and reworking Max3D. He would have just shipped it in whatever state it was in, to get the cash flowing again.

Sure. But why would you care? What difference does it make? When we do get information it's fairly benign and informal, not actually useful, for anything besides rumormongering.

Maybe Mark does other work to make real money and Bmax is his pet project on the side for fun and beer money.

Sure they have a moral obligation to support existing newer products that require it (namely BlitzMAX. But Blitz+ and B3D however i think mark has more than fulfilled his commitment there and is pretty much the perfect DX7 gamemaker it set out to be).

However you were talking about max3D, a product that you have not even bought yet. (BMax is described as a versatile GP language with a built in 2D engine when we purchased it, it says nothing about "we promise you a 3d engine". Sure you can moan about progress if you think it will make a difference, but not as if its something owed to us, because it really isn't.)

Nicely put. I dunno about you lot, but i'd take a personal "media creation break" over fighting an un-stable pile of rushed crap any day of the week.

If only BRL would take some time to study the market, I'm sure they could get some deals with schools offering a very cheap educational edition of BlitzMax.

basically you have to make as much dosh as possible in the uk to pay for everything.


its the way I remember it :)


By the time it comes out the market for 3d engines would be saturated

Nay

The original specs for Max3D were pretty high end.

For those wanting simple/casual/retro games, there is nothing more people would need than the B3D SDK, which already exists. But I imagine it is easier to gripe about Max3D not being here (even though it will have features you would never use for simple/casual/retro games), than actually make a game with the existing 3D engine for BMax, B3D SDK, which is more than capable of "simple/casual/retro games". Not to mention most of those are capable of being made in BMax itself since most are not true 3D.

You mean like BMax+B3D SDK which people virtually ignore? I can see why Mark is not eager to release Max3D when people will not even use the existing 3D engine for BMax.

yup agreed (the BMax+B3d SDK ignored bit)

Generally speaking I think there are two reasons why people don't bother with BB3D SDK.

1. It might do the same job, but its not Max3D.
2. A lot of people (people who perhaps I should know better than to listen to) say its not that good.

I'd like to judge by myself but I don't have the time to fart about with it. I couldn't even tell you without looking if there's a downloadable demo version.

I'd definitely be interested to see what anybody else has done with it, though.

Another one is basically it does the same job as Blitz3d both are $100 but with Blitz3d you get the whole language not just a series of libraries.

Most of the complaints I have seen here and on other forums are really the lack of skills with the language of choice for using with the SDK and lack of understanding of the Windows API.

I have seen some interesting games turned out with it since its release. Most seem to be using non-blitz languages, but IIRC, a month or two back somebody posted a nice looking SDK game here.

I would gladly take a look at the BB3D SDK but I think that asking for another $100 from people who already own B3D a little steep. Surely previous owners should get a slight discount?

I`m more than willing to pay normally, I have bought every Blitz product to date so far, but I think that the SDK is basically something that I already have in the shape of B3D so why should I pay full price for it again?

Jason.

No i dont mean that at all. B3D SDK is nothing to do with blitzmax other than it can be used with it. And what GFK said, I mean whats the point? If you only use windows and want B3D, then just use B3D, you are not gonna be wanting the SDK unless you need to do something special.

Yes there is, because its just B3D for "other languages" for a start (and windows only). Whats the point if you can just use B3D and get the exact same results?

My point was it is not going to matter if Max3D is not "as good" as leadwerks. Its will still sell because it has been designed with Max in mind as the priority platform and at the end of the day is bound to be more powerful/featured than B3d. Plus it comes from the same place as BlitzMax/B3D which will ensure a better native interface with familiar commands etc.

using blitz3d sdk with bmax gives you the benefits of using the powerful language and all it's features ie oop something i would recommend if not for the cost.

No one is buying the sdk because its based on OLD TECHNOLOGY.

plash: yeah theres that too, if it was a DX9 engine like DBPro then they might sell it.

It's also quite buggy, isn't it?

DX9 is old technology too.
As i said further up, despite the OGL3 cliffhanger, OGL2.1 is more or less as good as D3D10 so why on earth this constant fascination with DX9 anyway?

*Less compability issues than OGL with graphic cards
*Newer than DX 7
*Supports XP unlike DX10
*Most of the users still use DX9 graphic cards and XP OS

Why not make a DX9 version of BlitzSDK?

Unfortunately, as a language B3D is limited and slow. I imagine it would be nice to use the SDK with C++, or BMax or Delphi.

Just like Max3D will be. Don't forget BMax is one of those other languages that the SDK was released for. People will use the same justifications for not using Max3D.

Except like the SDK, it will be designed to work with virtually any language.

Just like the SDK that everybody ignores :(

Well, 1:maybe, 2:no, 3:yes, 4:no.

Put it this way, i spend quite some time around these forums and i use both B3D and Max. I have not really seen or heard much about the SDK. when it was released i remember brushing over the description and thinking "whats the point" as i guess did almost every other B3D user. There was hardly any marketing done for it and had very little trumpet blowing to even let most know it was even there. (plus the fact its windows only)

So no, i wouldn't compare the forthcoming engine with B3DSDK. Even the name Max3D tells you exactly what the main intention is and will certainly be trumpeted in when released. Plus the fact its cross platform and bound to have the extra graphics oomph that everyone has been begging for when they say "we want a DX9 b3d".

@ mortis, why wont DX10 work on XP? Is there any good reason? If not sounds like a huge reason not to use DX10 or 11 right there (not for years anyway), so agreed, i now understand the fascination with 9.
However, as far as OpenGL 2.1 is concerned what is lost to a few dodgy graphics cards/drivers makes it up by the fact it does do dx10 grade stuff and runs on -everything- else (ie. any newish version of windows and all those millions of non-windows machines).

I am sensing the end of Blitz Research Limited.

:(

Keep in mind that unless you own the SDK, you can't see all of the SDK forums. There are bindings posted for many languages. It is one of the more popular engine choices for competing languages.

The primary issue is the lack of DX9 which makes windowed games/apps somewhat problematic under Vista's DWM (which is DX9 based). The secondary issue is the B3D-like commands which make it a bit of a hassle for OOP based languages, although wrapping the SDK commands is fairly easy.

I don't know how you can compare the B3dSdk with Max3d, apart from being a library there will be little similarlties. The sdk was ignored because it is basically the same thing as B3d which everyone already has, so it only was of interest to OOP programmers. It was also released too late, Dx7 is old tech and people are looking for Dx9. Max3d won't have these disadvantages and will also be cross-platform and use OpenGL. I didn't think this needed spelt out but apparently it does.

Wrong. Since Microsoft decided that DirectX 9 needed bi-monthly updates, using "DX9" has been much more of a driver hell than OpenGL ever was. At least with OpenGL you can be sure that if OpenGL worked 2 months ago, it'll still work today. With DX9, not so much.

What does that have to do with it?

So what? XP is no longer being sold, and sooner rather than later, going to be unsupported as well. That it "works on XP" is soon going to be as useful (and relevant) as "works on Amiga", except you can actually still buy an Amiga.

Which users are that? Most non-hardcore gamer types, still have the version of DirectX that shipped with XP, which I believe is DX8.1.

Unfortunately many of those limitations and bottlenecks (like say the vertices per surface limit) are carried over into the B3D SDK.

I imagine that if you're wanting a more advanced language than B3D, you'll be wanting a more advanced engine to go with it.

And here is why:
1) There is no demo. You have to buy it on good faith, there is no way to evaluate it.
2) It isn't competitively priced. MiniB3D is free, Dark GDK is free, TV3D is $150. B3D SDK is $100. At that price, it seems more reasonable to either get the more advanced engine, or the free one.
3) It's basically "old wine in new bottles". While this isn't technically accurate, it's still the general perception.

Because the API changes from DX 7 to DX 9 were non-trivial. DirectX is designed for video games. Video games are not traditionally updated to "keep up with the game" (if a game is designed for DX7, it stays DX7). This gives Microsoft an ideal opportunity to switch things around between versions, without having to deal with angry developers and/or users. Unfortunately it's pretty uncool for middleware and applications, that do need to keep up with the curve. Today this is dealt with by using different renderers for different APIs, and choosing one depending on certain factors, and just going with that. With an abstract renderer, the engine doesn't have to care about which API is being used to render the graphics.

Blitz3D was not designed in this way. Redesigning and reengineering existing applications is a horrible task, and often the best results are gotten, by starting from scratch anyway.

Because Microsoft say so. Whether it's a "good" reason would be an individual matter. However since it's Microsofts ball, they get to chose who gets to play with it. Soon enough everyone will be using Vista, and this will all be a moot point.

What flameduck said.

What Dan said Flameduck said.

Isn't that the truth. I have to use a third-party tool to swap DX9 versions for some programs to actually work.

I am as much an OpenGL proponent as anyone, but that simply isn't true. Until 2008, fundamental parts of OpenGL did not work at all on AMD cards.

Since around January, it seems like they start putting more effort into their OpenGL drivers, and they have been very responsive any time I sent them a detailed driver bug report.

AMD has promised working OpenGL3 drivers by q1 2009, so hopefully that will clean things up:
http://www.khronos.org/developers/library/2008_siggraph_bof_opengl/Vendor%20Announcements%20SIGGRAPH%20BOF%20Aug08.pdf

Heh, it would be nice to have a universal OS and universal render API that everyone used. =\

There is, it's called reality. :)

yeah but with reality you only get perceived value :)

Why? If there were only 1, there would be no incentive for it to improve. Do you think Microsoft keep updating Windows and DirectX for your benefit?

Agrees with Flameduck, M$'s best Windows version to date was Windows 3.11 for workgroups it had everything that these latest versions had apart from all the hassle.

TBH it took ages to get me to go from DOS 6.22+Windows 3.11 to Win95 and I have wanted to go back ever since.

Well, apart from the multitasking, somewhat better stability, flat memory model and plug and play, i -fractionally- agree with that simply because i prefer the idea of the gui running on top of a commandline environment. (although so did 95/98 so it was when it all went NT that i moaned most)
However, I have always said XP is a good OS -now- after many many updates over 7-8 years but was complete pants when released. Same for Win 9x and probably the same can be said for vista in a few years.

(lol, reminds me of life of brian: "so what have the romans ever done for us" :D)

"I am pleased to announce that the Max3D module has made considerable progress lately!" 04/2006

Wow, I had no idea it's been worked on for that long, and no demos, beta releases, nada?

AMEN! Keep beating that dead horse guys, eventually he will get up right?

It hasn't...

The original Max3d was an engine written specifically to target, unsurprisingly, BMax and was itself written in BMax. That project was dropped if favour of/merged into an integrated editor/gamemaker thingy, which, AFAICT, was gonna be something along the lines of Unity. This has been put on the back burner and the Max3d currently under development is a new, cross language, 3D engine written in C++ that will probably have similar features to those proposed for the original Max3D.

You forgot to mention that it will be available before Xmas 2008?????

Sometimes i'm wondering what could have been if Mark had choosen to wrap ogre instead of writing his own 3d engine. How much time this move could have spared? What would have been the drawbacks for the end users? ...

The main drawback is that we would have to find our own collision detection routines.

Probably not much. As I understand it most of the perceived "wasted" time on this hasn't really been on core engine stuff, but on peripheral things (like the game maker thing). So it probably wouldn't have saved much in terms of time-to-market, if that's what you're thinking. Also I'm fairly sure most people would be more motivated to work on doing their own thing, rather than simply providing a wrapper for someone else's thing.

Well you'd be stuck with Ogre, wouldn't you? :o> I'm thinking people who wanted that, would've done it already (Evak, Ant, etc.). I believe there are benefit to Mark having complete control over the 3D Engine, specifically if there are things about Ogre that are incompatible with his vision.

No worries there. If we're using 3rd party stuff anyway, I hear PhysX and ODE are excellent in that regard.

@MrTAToad
Well, you could have combined ogre with any physics engine.

@FlameDuck
I'm just kind of afraid of how much work lies ahead in terms of making a graphics engine working well on a wide range of cards (i strongly hope that this will be different than the leadwerk focus), writing fallbacks, driver workarounds and these things, you know development/maintainance for one person. If you have to do this then writing a good wrapper with providing what's really important should also be fun.

I was thinking of offering ogre in a more professional way than what Ant for example did and i don't see Evak's version of ogre yet plus there wasn't a physics engine integrated if i remember it correclty.

Non native-ness. Plus, doesnt OGRE have some stricter licence restrictions rather than just being Zlib like irrlicht?

Isnt there already an Ogre wrapper? I thought cygnus was doing one called flow :/

Thats fine as long as its simple to do.

..by the way, whats happen with Flow, really?? They seems to be 'almost' out..and suddenly disappeared..

With flow, the team has been busy working on it when they have the time. Releasing it hasn't been a priority since its primary reason for being has been our own projects. We are eager to release it though, since were pretty chuffed with it. Development has been slow the last couple of months since team members have had a lot of RL stuff to contend with. In my case California budget is 2 months behind and there's the threat of state workers getting minimum wage till its passed which could mean $5000 a month dropping to $6.55 an hour. So I've been focusing on contract illustration work the last few weeks.

The engine is coming along nicely and there have been a few times the past 3 months where we considered releasing a beta version, but team members haven't agreed mostly because our low level coder is a perfectionist and doesn't want to let it out till she feels it's ready.

BTW Flow's getting a name change to something not being used elsewhere, ( http://www.flow3d.com/ ) the plan is to release a beta version of it soon after Cygnus gets back from holiday and the new web portal for the engine goes online.

You could call it Wolf.

Well... what do you want him to do?
He has to make a new engine regardless of weather its ripping all the guts out of B3D and starting from scratch or the prefered option of a universal engine lib. Either way its a lot of work (at least with the latter option as he doesnt have to worry about designing a new specific language &compiler).

PS Wolf Engine sounds good.

I just was wondering if it will be worth all the efforts in the end. As and end user i don't care if my rendered pixels are coming from engine a or engine b as long as it's working, easy to use and featurewise provides what i'm looking for. I just was thinking about the benefits of having your own thing vs. the downsides this also brings with it. Surprisingly no one cares about implementing their own physics engine or their own network enigne but when it comes to the 3d engine it seems to be a different thing.

So if i more or less get the same result and wrapping an 3d engine like ogre would mean less time for integration compared to developing and maintaining your own engine i'm also thinking of a third party 3d engine plus more time for enhancements on BlitzMax vs. your own 3d engine plus less time for enhancements on BlitzMax. Such a decision also might be influenced by somekind of long term strategy or what's simply more fun for the developer to do. If there will be a noticeable positive difference in the end, then good for the end user, if not, then well...

What does it matter, as long as Mark is doing it?

I offer 2 hypothesis (sp?):
1) Personal Interest. People will chose to work on what they find interesting and personally gratifying. Also writing a decent Networking or Physics requires some downright scary maths, which would put most people off doing it right away.
2) Impact on gameplay. Many people believe that the 3D engine has a more significant impact on gameplay, certainly in most cases more than the Networking or Physics component. So it stands to reason that would be the factor one would strive to control the most.

I don't know. Maybe a combination of both.

I think i know what you mean but modern 3d engines also require serious math and concepts and on top of that there come all the hardware issues. Taking all this into account, if you have the guts for maths then writing your phyiscs engine probably is the easier task as it's platform independent, doesn't require it's own language, less tied to the hardware, less driver bugs, compatibility issues and so on. The visual feedback could be more rewarding but as physics are working hand in hand with graphics it's also rewarding.

I theoretically agree on that the graphics also influence the gameplay but in my opinion this only happens then when there are significant differences for instance in the ease of handling it, performance wise or featurewise like supporting shadows in engine a and non in engine b or just Amiga vs Atari ST ;O). Otherwise i don't think this is such a big issue.

Maybe you just have to learn to give up control of every aspect in favor for the bigger picture and getting things done faster. On the other side BlitzMax wouldn't be BlitzMax without a certain attitude but i just don't know if the 3d engine will make such a difference in this case. The TTF support in BlitzMax also isn't written by BRL, as long as it works, it's fine.

..as mr. Duck said..especially part 2)

Sure. The hardware issues are a big issue no doubt. As for math, while spatial geometry is fairly complex, it's still fairly trivial compared to even a simple dynamics simulation, which is probably why there are more 3D engines than it's humanly possible to ever use, but only a handful of complete dynamics libraries.

Well I completely agree. But there's another aspect of it now. It's been so long that if Mark just threw in the towel, and decided to wrap Ogre (or my personal favorite, TV3D) there would be an outcry from all the tools who've been waiting years for Mark to deliver a product, when they could have used Gabes wrapper all along.

Graphics engines have a longer tradition and have this "you code, you get a pixel" rewarding. Whilst it's certainly not an easy task doing a physics engine, once you grasp it, it's a lot more straightforward than doing a 3d engine.