3d engine: C4 or tv3d or other?

I've been looking around at some of the options for 3D engines. My current criteria is:
-Either c++ or scripting (or both)
-Designed to make games
-Includes tools such as a world builder, shader editor, etc.
-Is under 250 US
-Not ridiculously complicated

So far C4 is looking quite nice, but I'm wondering if it is easy to learn for someone that is new to C++ ?
TV3D looks too general purpose for me, I don't have much time to make games and I don't want to spend my time making an engine for every game I make.

My original thoughts was on S2, but the community doesn't seem very active (only 112 users on the forums?)

Are there any more engines I overlooked that would work for me?

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/
Maybe you want to take a look at dxstudio.

S2 engine has it all..and its SM3 engine..very nice..

Best thing you can get these days for making 3d games as a one man show or in a small team is Unity.

-> http://unity3d.com/unity/

- Scripting in C#, Javascript or Boo.
- Designed for making 3d games.
- I don't know what the world builder exactly does but you have an IDE were you can build your world in if you want to, shader editor will come, until then you have a simplified shader language or a pack of already included ones.
- At the moment Indie goes out for $200 plus taxes but this means Mac only for development and publishing but i didn't read win only in you criteria.
- Easy to use.

WOT does S2 Engine code look like?

No, Unity won't do, I have to make games for the pc market.
Ill look at dx studio and get back on that.

I meant world builder as in something like TED or 3d World Studio, many of the game engines seem to come with them.

I would like to see an example of s2 code, as they have no demo, I'm a bit skeptical that it will run on my old desktop.

Yep, Unity with windows publishing would cost $1500 + taxes.

Regarding DX Studio, has anyone taken a deeper look into v2.3 and how it works under production conditions?

Hmmm... Dx Studio looks nice, but its not a full featured game engine is it? It doesn't have networking or physics, so those would have to be handled via external libraries?

Maybe reading through their technical specification helps.

-> http://www.dxstudio.com/features_tech.aspx

I have try dx studio and I didnt like it.
Avoid dx studio but everyone is different!

Have a look at Torque Engine + Torque Engine Advanced upgrade (costs less and gives you both licenses and therefor access to boths resource repositories and wiki documentations!)
Costs a bit above what you mention (295USD for both, both with sources and the editors unlike the C4 ones are not ugly and crap counter intuitive) but gives you most likely more than what you mentioned there.

TV3D has no editor, C4 has no DX, so the first does not meet your requirements and the later makes me think if you really thought deep enough about your target platform requirements or: OpenGL on Windows and its massive driver dependance when it comes to ugly bugs.

If you're new to C++ then i'd stay away from C4. Its a great engine, but you do need to be very comfortable with C++.

The last time I used C4, ( about a year ago), physics had to implemented seperately, it wasn't integrated with the engine. And although there are tutorials to help you out they can be difficult to understand.

@HotShot2005
this is the source for main menu in S2 engine..its very simple and easy to use..and whole thing is SM3 powered, physics, layered AI, all possible editors with it(level, material,animation..)..very nice..

<define>
showMain=true
loaded=false

<init>
/* load menu level */
LoadLevel: "scenes/FPSmenu.s2";

SetParam:"width",500;
SetParam:"height",500;
SetParam:"halign",0;
SetParam:"valign",0;
SetParam:"extended",true;
SetParam:"texture","sfondo3.tga";
SetParam:"cursor","cursor.tga";
SetParam:"name","mainframe";

/* exit button */
CreateWidget:"button",0,"exit,EXIT,128,64,0,0,0,arial.ft2,0","0,175";

/* title label */
CreateWidget:"label",0,"text,S2 engine,512,64,-1,-1,0,arial.ft2,0","0,0";

/* title label */
CreateWidget:"label",0,"logo, ,256,256,0,-1,lo.tga,arial.ft2,0","0,10";

/* load level button */
CreateWidget:"button",0,"level0,START,128,64,0,0,0,arial.ft2,0","0,-35";

/* options button */
CreateWidget:"button",0,"option,OPTIONS,128,64,0,0,0,arial.ft2,0","0,105";

/* exit button */
CreateWidget:"button",0,"close,CLOSE,128,64,0,0,0,arial.ft2,0","0,35";
SetSubWidgetFlags: "close","w_grayed";

/***********************************************************/
/* optionFrame */
CreateWidget:"listbox","scripts\optionsFrame.sc2","optionsFrame, ,500,500,0,0,0,arialBig.ft2,0","0,0";
show;


/**********************************************************/
<function=show>
ShowWidget:showMain;
ShowCursor:showMain;
ShowSubWidget:"optionsFrame",false;

/**********************************************************/
<Update>
if(IsKeyPressed:"@esc",1)
{
if(IsEqual:showMain,true & IsEqual:loaded,true)
{
SetVar:$showMain,false;
EngineResume;
show;
}
else
{
SetVar:$showMain,true;
EnginePause;
show;
}
}


/***********************************************************/
<Message>
if(Message:"pushed" & IsEqual:sender,"exit")
{
Exit;
}

if(Message:"pushed" & IsEqual:sender,"level0")
{
CloseLevel;
LoadLevel: "scenes/FPSDemo.s2";
SetVar: $loaded,true;
SetVar: $showMain,false;
ResetSubWidgetFlags: "close","w_grayed";
SetSubWidgetFlags: "level0","w_grayed";
show;
EngineResume;
}

if(Message:"pushed" & IsEqual:sender,"option")
{
ShowWidget: false;
ShowSubWidget: "optionsFrame",true;
}

if(Message:"pushed" & IsEqual:sender,"close")
{
CloseLevel;
LoadLevel: "scenes/FPSmenu.s2";
SetSubWidgetFlags: "close","w_grayed";
ResetSubWidgetFlags: "level0","w_grayed";
SetVar: $loaded,false;
EngineResume;
}

"It doesn't have networking or physics"

DX Studio supports two physics engine Bullet and PhysX
The editor is good
The game architecture is fantastic

The only issue can be the importer particulary if you use low cost packages
such as Milkshape and Fragmotion
Moreover it seems quite slow
Remember that DX Studio has been originally designed for simulation rather than game programming

C4 is one of the best and more advanced engine around but you said

" Not ridiculously complicated "

Well ,on this point..no comment

However my favourite is TV3D being the more balanced
There is also an editor but I never tested it

I use Selene, it's DX9, Windows only, developed by Japanese guys, but should work under all languages.

http://selene-lue.halfmoon.jp/

Not much to say, using this engine need a few skill on Japanese anyway.

yoko: Looks like I'll need to brush up on my Japanese for that one :)

We seem to be getting a lot of mixed comments, I guess it is quite user opinion.
If C4 needs some c++ background, I don't think it will work for me.
The system requirements on S2 are generally high, my Computers barely meets the minimum, and since I'm not going for high poly realism games, can I just tone down the amount of polygons to have it run smoothly on my desktop?

S2ENGINE 1.5 requires OPENGL 2.0 and shaders 3.0, so be sure your graphics card support at least OPENGL 2.0

I'm guessing this means that S2 runs on OpenGl 2, I suppose it comes down to the same problems C4 and other OpenGL on Windows Engines Have?

From Dreamora:

Hmmm... Besides Power of Destruction, S2 doesn't have much going in terms of projects being released for it.

..well..I cant say much since i recently brought it, but, every single level i had before or some geometry I use to play with in B3D, is a way faster in S2 and as I said, simplicity of just drop object on scene and see receiving/casting shadows and all other fancy things set in no time is a nice refreshment..very simple and intuitive material editor making things so simple to use regarding normalmapping, specularity, water reflections/refractions and so on that its just beautiful..provided editors for level building and scene editor for scene set up and run, placement NPC's, editing their scripts and so in is outstanding...really nice..I am surprised too that there is no more advertising for this beauty...but what I know that Fabio(engine developer) responding in no time and really nice fella..

Sounds nice, looks like I'll probably be going with S2.
Which license for S2 do you have, Naughty Alien?

Nevermind, Only the Basic license is available to buy currently.

I do have basic license, so regarding all important packages, its same as others...of course later you can always upgrade if you want to..

could you post the screenshot of your S2 Engine with all the editor if you could as I would like to see it. please

yup..give me few minutes

good Alien

Im really not comfortable with giving the author my skype name, so a screenshot of the editor might help somewhat.

I give to autor my cell phone, and everything and asked him to join for coffe...soon i got my keys and S2 beauty :)...guy is okay.. :) here screenshots..

Material editor...
set up everything you going to apply over your geometry and simply use in all other editors later, or change in runtime inside Scene Editor


Map Editor
Place you going to build your level, terrain or whatever, CSG or import from 3dsmax (you will receive all exporters for 3dsmax for static geometry and animations...cooll)


Animation Editor
Here you load your model, assign materials on to it, and blend animation sequences and so on..


Scene Editor
Beauty place where you can setup whole game, waynodes, AI, portals, triggers, VFX and play your game instantly to see is it okay or not..if not, change your scripts and see it in action on the fly..here im editing demo level and changing some AI behaviour..


and here are few screenshots from actual game I use to edit in previous steps..




I hope you like it :)

very nice, looks like it is well though out and streamlined.

Well, I think I'll be going with S2. Thanks everyone for your quick replies.

LOOK very good. So with S2 Engine mean it can make only FPS games or can make
any games with it?

well..forget about 2D games :)

S2 ENGINE REVIEW
http://www.devmaster.net/engines/engine_details.php?id=305

overbloom.

overbloom? eh?

oooh I know what he mean.
yeah it is overbloom.

I like bloom.

I went ahead and ordered S2, It's been a day and I haven't got my download email....
Getting Kinda Anxious...

..you'll get it..no worries.. ;)

Good, I got it, I was starting to get worried :)

Hey Fuller

HOW you getting with S2 Engine?
Let me know what you think of it on Ease of used and so on.

Well, so far its looking very nice. I haven't had time to really delve into it, but the initial presentation is very good. Everything is organized nicely, and you get an account to access the developers area of the site. There are a good amount of tutorial and info there.
I'll post again once I have more of an understanding of the engine.

Any link for the site of the S2 engine? Naughty Alien?

I'm also looking at the TGEA (Torque Game Engine Advanced) :P

http://www.garagegames.com/products/28/

But, really... Torque doesn,t seem to have all the bells and whistles, even the "Advanced" version, that most people here read from say the Crysis engine specs, or say the Leadwerks. Even, if it does have a lot of things that I wish other engines to have, it still is a little dated.

oficial ling to the engine is www.profenix.com , there is hidden developer area with PDF documentation, video tutorials and stuff..very handy...just got update 1.5.1..nice extension in script and full Collada support too :)

..if you want i can post one video tutorial so you can see for yourself how easy is to set up and run things :)

Sorry for my english.
I bought the engine and I had test it.
After the spend two days I have a nervous breakdown.
It´s horrible to work with the tools.
My PC have a very good configuration and the FPSdemo work fine.
But ...
For example, the WorldEditor and SceneEditor don't send error messages only crash if you do something incorrect.
The engine have an own system files and collada support too (only static meshes) The export plugins only work in Max 8 version.
The script manual is incomplet.(only commands description without examples)
The User Manual is simple.
Haven´t multiplayer and physic wrapper.
I bought neoaxis engine and C4 engine (great engines). But I look for great render features with easy programming (very easy script lenguage) and tools suite, S2Engine have it but in my opinion have too a lot of bugs is very slow and need a very high specifications computer.
I think that I lose 135 Euros.
Bye

For me, the most complet and robust suite for make games is Unity Pro.

>>WorldEditor and SceneEditor don't send error messages only crash if you do something incorrect<<

Actually, this happen if you missing some of elements on your scene, model, etc..however, thats not excuse for crashing..I would suggest to try to export and use S2 file formats, rather than colada..

Hey Naughty Alien,

Can you please post a video tutorial :)

Hi Naughty Alien,
I can't try S2 files yet. I haven't the 3DSMax 8 version.
Anyway, thanks. ;-)

Well...try it with original S2 format...i have included 7 million poly terrain and some geometry from Max...and its running smooth like a silk on my 7600gt...common 'error' is actually missing elements, names or materials over geometry, so thats why system goes off...o but if handled properly its just working fine..ill post video tutorial in next few hours soon as i get back...and one piece of advice..dont rely on colada yet...use S2 original material/format scheme..

@Hotshot
Here is tutorial i promised...its involving previously done geometry, so, tutorial is about placing lights, atmosphere, importing prefabs, and stuff..I hope it helps

http://www.mediafire.com/?en1y33h2mmn

THANKS!!!! for the tutorial
I'll try S2 format.
Then, It's better use geometry terrain than heighmap terrain ?

Eiii I have this tutorial. jajaja
It's good idea post it here for the people who want to see more about the engine in action before purchase.

very good video and it is very interesting.
the script already done for you which is good things

some scripts are done and if not, you write your own..its damn simple..once you see syntax, you'll understand :)

ok how you getting on with S2 engine to Naught Alien, M2PLAY and Fuller

S2Engine have it but in my opinion have too a lot of bugs

It is not the only one
Take B.V. for example, great user friendly engine but full of bugs
A Game engine is a very complex software
Stability is the most important feature

S2 has bugs of course, but you are pretty much limited to do such due use of scripting language..however, if you do make some errors(and its only inside your scripting) system will quit, without error message, but you will see in your log file, what went wrong, if some script missing, or shader name is typed wrong, therefore missing, and so on)..practically, it will goes down if you did wrong buggy scripting..

how you all getting on?

Very nice actually, built my first building today. I am having to upgrade my computer though, as I don't meet the minimum specs.
About Multiplayer, the developer of the engine says it is a planned feature for the next release.

can u post the screenshot of your first buildings if you dont mind

Its really, nothing to look at. Just some indoor building like Naughty Alien posted earlier.

Wouldn't rely on it. I would suggest finding something that supports everything you want initially. Anyone who invests anything into something that doesn't yet support their needs is [comment removed for harsh truth].

@ anyone planning to pay for the engine before all wanted features are available.

Unmade promises happen over...and over...and over.

while you may be true(and you are, at least for majority of cases around), and future based on someones promises usually is uncertain, I must say that Fabio(S2 developer), is quite nice man and so far everything he said, came true without much fuss or complications...having that in mind, I think that next release will have what he has promised..

C4 ist the best engine you can get for low money. At the moment it costs $200 but will cost $300 soon when the new voxel based terrain engine + foliage system will be integrated...

But: C4 is completely different to all other engines I know. It's even harder to get into it. The code is very clean, the features are great. I'd give it a try (well I did. ;) )

The community is very active and helpful but you need to understand C++, and not only basic C++.

Regards - Xaron

Yes, It´s the best engine.
I had purchased looking for the future features.
It`s necesary to have good level of C++