UK 'Big Brother’ database for phones and e-mails
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/UK 'Big Brother’ database for phones and e-mails
Since last October telecoms companies have been required to keep records of phone calls and text messages for 12 months. That requirement is to be extended to internet, e-mail and voice-over-internet use and included in a Communications Data Bill.
A massive government database holding details of every phone call, e-mail and time spent on the internet by the public is being planned as part of the fight against crime and terrorism. Internet service providers (ISPs) and telecoms companies would hand over the records to the Home Office under plans put forward by officials.
The proposal will raise further alarm about a “Big Brother” society, as it follows plans for vast databases for the ID cards scheme and NHS patients. There will also be concern about the ability of the Government to manage a system holding billions of records. About 57 billion text messages were sent in Britain last year, while an estimated 3 billion e-mails are sent every day.
Pretty scary stuff. Especially when its a new EU wide directive. Full article at:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/telecoms/article3965033.ece
"About 57 billion text messages were sent in Britain last year, while an estimated 3 billion e-mails are sent every day."
Exactly. The governement has ideas that everyone else knows are not feasible.
And you know, terrorists ain't completely stupid. When they know they're being watched, then they'd start using code, encryption, etc.
*Sigh* they're watching me, and I'm not planning to attack anyone anytime soon- So why are you wasting your time watching me? go watch that shifty looking fella over in the corner. He's wearing shabby clothes, looks like he's from Iraq and sits there fiddling with gadgets!
Um, Seriously though, it's crazy what they spy on. If I hear of a weapon- and I do have a fascination with them- and I don't know what it is, I Wiki it. Does that mean I'm going to get targeted?
And the response to that will be to make encryption either illegal or breakable by the state. And if the UK government had by private key, then I may as well post my emails up in the town centre.
The terrorists that illict this response hate the way we live, the freedoms we have and the 'decadent' way we live our lives. So they attack us to try to make us live the way they want us to. And suddenly countries that once fought for freedoms are torturing people, surveyling the populous to degree unknown before and when an innocent man is held down and shot 6 times in the face the authoritires just say opps.
The terrorists have already won, and we have given away the freedoms our grandparents fought for without even a complaint.
It is precisely to watch you Cygnus. You're (we're) the threat to the loathsome reptiles who rule us. Terrorism and rampant crime will continue business as normal as it is meant to...nevermind, I hear a new console is in the works.
The government just want to send out another disc full of personal details which will 'accidently' get lost in the post again.
Im starting feel like the old donkey in animal farm, i can see whats happening and where it appears to be leading, but am starting to really think that it may soon be time to be careful what you say.
It doesnt take a genius to work out what this is about, its about power and control. Not of terrorism or crime but of normal people. As if terrorists or tech savvy criminals would be thwarted by this, they would simply use encryption (or if that gets banned then simply make up their own language/codes). Its every governments dream to have full eyeballs on their citizens. I cannot help but wonder if shows like big brother and other reality crap is in fact a major unconsious social experiment, to see how we respond to being watched and help us except it as the norm. Constantly using fear as the catalyst for what we think we need. In our grandfathers 'day' the idea of cameras watching every move you make was totally abhorrent (in the days when even asking someones date of birth without good reason was considered rude)
This would never see the light of day and if it does I'm rioting.
you should. Ill be right behind you.
Definately big brother, although im sceptical that theres a sinister all powerful illuminati-like single entity doing it (although there could well be in THIS case :) but its more due to the mechanics of society and the direction its heading.
For example: My mum recently went to buy a TV (in cash!) and the clerk asked her to fill in a registration form which asked for name, address, phone number and DOB.
My mum asked why she needed to fill this in and was told it was company policy. Being a long suffering victim of junkmail and salescalls she asked to see the manager to get an explaination and was told (quite abruptly) that it was company policy and that was that, and that if she refused to give the info then he could not sell her a tv.
Now, neither the clerk or manager realize it (nor even the company i suspect) but they are feeding the proverbial "beast", not at the instruction of any govt or agency, but by this strange invisible force that society seems to be generating itself to collect data on everything.
With no thought seemingly given to how it could be missused years later.
(eg. Im sorry Mr Amon, but our information (your supermarket card data) shows you eat too much microwave food. You cannot have your hip operation for at least 6 years, as lots of salad eaters need them first! :)
I'm sure there's a big brother going on, but somehow I expect society to find loopholes in which to move. It's kinda comparable with the record/movie industry: they try to forbid tons o' stuff (remember the initial protesting when the very first mp3 players came out?), but in the end ppl find a way to share/spread stuff. In NL it's even legal to download music and movies. Could you imagine saying that to the industry, say, 15 years ago?
It's a bit like that line from Jurassic Park: "life finds a way".
Encryption/code would be an easy thing to do already, and anonymous/hidden messaging will continue, BB or no BB.
asked to see the manager to get an explaination and was told (quite abruptly) that it was company policy and that was that, and that if she refused to give the info then he could not sell her a tv.
It's actually for TV licensing, but still, a good example of tracking info.
Also, don't forget to place nicely online everybody and try not to get too excited otherwise you may trigger a few alarm bells ..
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/02/nations-spies-w.html It's actually for TV licensing, but still, a good example of tracking info.
I'm almost certain that the TV licensing people don't need your phone number or date of birth. I've bought 3 TV's in the past couple of years and never been asked for either. So they might have been hoping people would think that, and indeed some of the information might have been, but it does sound like they were throwing in a little extra information "for good measure".
Its not, theres no requirement for stores to collect info on behalf of TVL. It could be being purchased for any reason, a gift for example. Also it doesnt matter what she was buying, apparently it was for if it was faulty, but then whats wrong with the normal receipt? (as the actual warranty is with the manufacturer themselves, not the store)
And you know, terrorists ain't completely stupid.
Of course they're not stupid. That's why the blow themselves to smithereens in the name of some unseen being which they don't even know for sure exists. I mean, how could you dress something like THAT up as stupidity?
But on a more serious note - I don't care if somebody's keeping a log of phone calls/text messages/internet use. Mobile phone companies already keep logs of SMS messages and calls, and I know because I used to work for one.
The bottom line is, if you aren't doing anything wrong then what are you afraid of?
The bottom line is, if you aren't doing anything wrong then what are you afraid of?
Im sure average joe german thought that too in 1932. (Not to mention quite a few russians before that)
Occasionally it is wise to not blindly follow authority without questioning it.
In order to be decisive investigations should be well directed, aimed and not based on information control. In a 9/11 documentary a spokesman of the pentagon admitted that they had the basement full of documents in arabic language which no one even translated due to lack of time and personnel. Since the inefficacy of the method has already been proved, this kind of choices are therefore done in the name of the fight against terrorism rather than for the fight of it.
GFK of course has a solid point, if we stay in the criminal field. However, people is proccupied that once the government has access to this kind of information, they could use it illecitly for other purposes as well. Since the population can never be sure of where its governement is leading, whereas it could be an idillic utopia or a dictatorship or everything in between, it is reasonable to avoid that its government gets hold of dangerous instruments of power, expecially if the benefits are not clear.
Anyway, I remember that such a proposal was in the works since 2003. Basically it is an extension of the data retention directive adopted in 2006.
Since the population can never be sure of where its governement is leading, whereas it could be an idillic utopia or a dictatorship or everything in between, it is reasonable to avoid that its government gets hold of dangerous instruments of power, expecially if the benefits are not clear.
Exactly. The whole purpose of a (true) democracy is that the government does NOT control the population, rather the population controls the government. This system becomes impossible when such powerful, controlling tools are slowly allowed to be introduced by those in power.
If I am not doing anything wrong, what am I scared of?
Losing my privacy.
And besides, as soon as that old line gets touted out its time to worry, especially when people believe it enough to actually repeat it.
You can use it to justify just about anything. Someone opening your mail, if you aren't doing anything wrong why worry? Random blood tests on the street? Camera in your front room, bed room, toilet.
If ID cards come in along with all this other stuff, then In Soviet Russia lives already YOU!!!!!!!!
Especially as the goal-posts for right and wrong are being moved by stealth all the time. Patriotism is now Racism - what a sickening inversion of a nation's healthy pride.
The window is closing on the free western world as we once knew it. Wake up people!
Follow the money trail. Same clan every time.
I'm almost certain that the TV licensing people don't need your phone number or date of birth. I've bought 3 TV's in the past couple of years and never been asked for either. So they might have been hoping people would think that, and indeed some of the information might have been, but it does sound like they were throwing in a little extra information "for good measure".
Going back to this- and this is possibly worrying- When I worked in retail 5 years ago, we were trained to take this information, It was only on hardware that could recieve TV. We were trained that the purpose was for tracking people who did not pay for their TV license.
We also took details of people who bought radio transcievers that were possible of listening in on, say, police frequencies.
Maplin Electronics by the way.
Britain doesn't really care about freedoms. Blasphemy is illegal, so is holding an "insulting sign" (a teenager hold a sign saying that Scientology is a cult), it is illegal to own the Anarchist Cookbook etc.
It seems every man and his dog wants to collect information nowadays
How many games and applications do you have which attempt to phone home?
I always get nags from the Sygate Personal Firewars telling me app X, game Y is trying to connect to address blah. Even demos like Race Driver Grid
My current worst offender is Pinnacle TV. Always wants to connect. I block every game and app which fails to inform me WHY they need to contact their master
Mobile phones - Do you REALLY think that, once you "delete message" it is gone for good?
I had a Samsung E700 and chose DELETE ALL MESSAGES before parting with it. Only to be told by my brother that, after connecting a data cable all messages were still there even though the phone says "no messages"
Very annoying and maddening. Do you think companies do this for a reason?
Is it any wonder that identity theft is so rife? Particulary in the UK where personal info is practically given away free inside your box of cornflakes!
Just think how much time, effort and tax payers money goes into implementing these things. England has almost 5,000,000 CCTV cameras watching the public. Originaly designed to make the streets safe and prevent crime. Yet the cameras were only used to solve 3% of crimes that occured in public view.
Not so long ago on the BBC they were reporting on programs on trial in a couple of British cities where the CCTV cameras interact with the people on the streets. One had pre recorded messages spoken by small children that would rebuke you for dropping litter. Another program has actual people with a microphone that tells you off for all manner of antisocial behaviour. This towards the end of last year and havent heard any more of it.
But the technology is pretty impressive these days. Not only is face recognition avaliable, but Gait recognition where you can be recognised with as little as 30 frames of continuous footage of you walking around without ever seeing your face.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200610020022 Um, Seriously though, it's crazy what they spy on. If I hear of a weapon- and I do have a fascination with them- and I don't know what it is, I Wiki it. Does that mean I'm going to get targeted?
No. What are the chances of them finding out you went to wikipedia? Do you think there's a slight chance that your Internet traffic (and that of any actual terrorists) is DWARFED by all the warez traffic, porn and spam going around? Yeah pretty much. Needle in haystack does not even begin to illustrate the problem. It's like being at a Manowar concert and trying to listen to someone whisper to you. From the far side of the moon. They will find Extraterrestrial life in far away solar systems before they find one real terrorist on the Internet.
The bottom line is, if you aren't doing anything wrong then what are you afraid of?
What's fear got to do with it? If you're not worried about the ignorance and stupidity of your elected officials, how about this. Who do you think is going to pay to store all those teenage girls pointless, stupid messages? God? Well you're wrong. There's only one person who's going to pay for this large and ultimately pointless surveillance technology. British citizens (through their taxes) and consumers of British products (through the increased cost of service).
It's not a matter of fearing the Gestapo will kick down your door because you looked at that picture of Rhona Mitra. It's a matter of your government wasting your money on stupid bullshit you don't need.
What's fear got to do with it? If you're not worried about the ignorance and stupidity of your elected officials, how about this. Who do you think is going to pay to store all those teenage girls pointless, stupid messages?
The mobile phone companies. Big news - they already do. When I found out I was liek OMGWTFLOL!
God? Well you're wrong.
Actually I'm agnostic. Those four words you uttered are for another discussion.
There's only one person who's going to pay for this large and ultimately pointless surveillance technology. British citizens (through their taxes) and consumers of British products (through the increased cost of service).
There's currently around 60 million British citizens. Which quite obviously, is not "one person".
It's a matter of your government wasting your money on stupid bullshit you don't need.
Oh my... we ARE mad today. While I agree partly with the sentiment, please don't swear, it makes baby Jesus cry (who may or may not have existed).
FD, so i was exadurating, so what. :-p
Taxes here are high enough already and FD is right about it being paid with by taxes. And i just lost a chunk of cash from the tax rate being dropped, (at least we get that back later in the year.)
Don't get me started on taxes and the boil on the foreskin of society that is Gordon Clown. :/
Gordon Clown. :/
LMFAO. Nice one :-)
it is illegal to own the Anarchist Cookbook etc.
No it isn't. The fact that someone who was arrested owned the book does not make the book the reason for his arrest. I expect the same person also owned a pair of socks, but it probably wasn't the reason he was arrested. Don't believe everything you read on the BBC News website. ( Seriously, they're just awful recently. I'd double check before I believed their reporting of the score of a football match. )
Heh - most of you are taking this the wrong way.
It's got nothing to do with a 'Big Brother'/'police state' etc.
Who the hell is going to sift through billions of e-mails and text messages, etc?
They want this info for particular high-profile criminals.
We don't know who the terrorists, etc are - so they store everything.
If you go out and rob a bank and get caught, they will probably investigate all of your calls, e-mails and text messages, etc to find the rest of the gang.
They are not reading everything, unless you are a threat/criminal.
Heh - most of you are taking this the wrong way.
They are not reading everything, unless you are a threat/criminal.
No, I think you're taking what most people are saying the wrong way. What most people are saying is precisely that they won't be able to wade through billions of emails and so they won't be able to determine if you're a threat/criminal. So all they'll achieve is wasting a lot of money and giving themselves a false sense of security when in reality they will not be any better equipped for the purposes they intend it for.
It is not an exaggeration to call the UK a police state. It is a police state right now. Everywhere you go the government has ads threatening people if they don't follow the rules.
This database has nothing to do with stopping crime, and everything to do with controlling the population. The UK and America are the new USSR, but I have to say the UK is in a more advanced state of decline right now.
Yeah, The BBC Is pretty selective in what they show these days, and are hardly impartial when it comes to news reporting. It's even worse that its funded my the UK tv license which you have to pay even if you don't watch their channels on broadcast TV. They have their fingers in every kind of media these days and make vast ammounts of money through licensing their programs abroad.
I'm not sure why everyone in the UK has to pay almost $300 a year, thats more than basic cable TV over here. And I get quite a lot of BBC for free through PBS. Which is publicly funded much like the BBC only voulantarily.
I thought it was funny that they mostly ignored the London elections the minute Boris Johnson collected a significant lead in the opinion polls. BBC paracticaly had a blackout with no news for the best part of a month right up untill election day. The Guardian actually had far better non biased coverage which I found quite surprising.
He's wearing shabby clothes, looks like he's from Iraq and sits there fiddling with gadgets!
Sounds like my "Big Brother" or it could be just another MI5 agent trying ( unsuccessfully) to blend in with the riffraff.
If I was to post my views on terrorists I would get banned ( because it would involve things that have a half-life of 24,100 years ).
As for "Big Brother", it will never work because there's a CCTV camera nearly on every street corner to "Combat street crime" so we are told but street crime has gone up.
I was always confused by how the germans went through with Hitlers plans and how no-one seemed to oppose him.
Then I found out that Hitler burnt down his own government building (the reichstag) to create the justification for the police state.
bush did the same with 911 and Blair did the same with that bomb on the bus,
In the book 1984, people are accused of helping the rocket bombs reach their targets in London - which is the justification in their society for watching people 24/7. In the book it is hinted that the 'big brother' government could be behind the rocket bombs.
They are even starting to install video cameras into laptops and TV's now
In KOTOR they explore the same idea, there is a question that you have to answer about 'would you let an attack happen if it would save more lives' and then you get dark side points for saying 'yes'
Yet the cameras were only used to solve 3% of crimes that occured in public view.
15-20% in areas with a new policy change. I wish people would have read that article and not just blindly quote the headline.
The mobile phone companies. Big news - they already do.
And I suppose you don't have a mobile phone?
Who the hell is going to sift through billions of e-mails and text messages, etc?
"Intelligent" software? Like say carnivore?
They want this info for particular high-profile criminals.
Yes of course. Because high profile criminals are stupid enough to send incriminated e-mails, unencrypted, from their own personal e-mail account using the Internet connection in their house. Because they're stupid you know, that's why Scotland Yard hasn't been able to catch them yet you see.
There's currently around 60 million British citizens. Which quite obviously, is not "one person".
Cheers Gfk, I've just had a mini choking session drinking some juice after reading that! :D
Money gets wasted everywhere in the UK, you cannot fart without getting taxed on it, the only time you are technically protected by the law is when you break it, and you are safe in the knowledge that when you work your balls off all your working life, your kids get 55% and the taxman gets the rest.
Thats what puts the Great into Great Britain!
This doesnt bother me, considering the crap we put up with already.
Money gets wasted everywhere in the UK
Yes thats true it starts with the wages and perks that are paid to members of parliament.
There's currently around 60 million British citizens.
That figure can not be true as I'm sure there must be a couple of million or so illegals.
Because they're stupid you know, that's why Scotland Yard hasn't been able to catch them yet you see.
The first police force in England was founded on corruption ( see City of Vice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Vice ). There was a staged robbery of Lord Newcastle to persuade him to get funding for a police force in London.
I think times haven't changed much.
An old physics tutor of mine used to work at Bell Labs in the days when fibre optics were fairly new. He told us that what he described as 'the men in black' came round, and they were told to co-operate totally with these men and ask no questions. What were they interested in? Expensive equipment for bulk analysing communications in the fibres. We'll have one of them, one of them....
Jeremy, YES. The Reichstag. Fail to learn the lessons of history at your peril.
Dan, YES. I bet people did indeed say 'I have nothing to hide' at the outset of Nazi Germany.
It is a conspiracy, not just a theory.
Former Italian president tells the country's largest newspaper 911 is an inside job:
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/boards/thread/3903975Transport secretary recounts Dick Cheney allowed planes to hit pentagon at 911 enquiry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJAI4-e7Xw&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE&feature=relatedQuotes from history:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkKbE9qCzQo&feature=relatedWho funded Saddam's rise to power? The CIA.
Who created the Taliban? The CIA. This is not even a secret.
heh i didnt know the police was founded on a conspiracy (staged robbery)
Its a shame they dont teach the reichstag thing at school
yes, i often wonder why they no longer teach proper history in british schools (well i have a fairly good idea)
He who controls the past.
Haha, I'm not worried.
There will also be concern about the ability of the Government to manage a system holding billions of records.
Our government couldn't organise a police state in a dictatorship!
It is not an exaggeration to call the UK a police state. It is a police state right now.
I'd say it is an exaggeration. Do you know anything about life in the USSR? I'd say not.
Its a shame they dont teach the reichstag thing at school
They do, and it was in my GCSE. Sheesh get some facts and perspective people.
UK seems just as messed up as USA.
There's currently around 60 million British citizens.
That figure can not be true as I'm sure there must be a couple of million or so illegals.
Since when were illegal immigrants in the UK classed as British citizens?
Sad to say the UK is more messed up then the US right now. For the most part speed cameras have been illegal in most states. CCTV out on public streets is almost non existent. I havent decided yet whether this is simply because people protest a lot more about their rights here in the US and usualy get their way. Or whether its just that they can't justify using tax $ to pay for it.
At least in the UK MP's finaly have to declare their spending. Got passed a a few days ago, been common practice here for years.
One thing I don't understand here in California is the congestion. It's the largest wealthiest state with an economy only one place below the UK. Has almost half the population and yet MUCH, MUCH worse traffic congestion.
That might have changed now that SUV's and Pickups migrated over there and health and safety close down the roads for hours after an accident.
They do, and it was in my GCSE. Sheesh get some facts and perspective people.
Which means you must have started at LEAST 3 years ago & would have followed a curriculum designed before that. The curriculums are being messed about all the time. When looked up an saw an example of a recent history exam material i was shocked.
Yes it explained about ww2 from a factual "it happened" standpoint, it hardly went in to "why" did it happen, what factors lead up to it and its effect on present day, which are the most important things about that history. Almost nothing worthwhile about the history of Britain, colonialism and its effects etc.
Yes they teach "history" but its a weak, watered down politically correct bunch of mush. I wouldnt be suprised if they renamed it "past studies" or some such crap.
After all, you cant teach any 'sensitive' subject and risk alienating/offending someone in the class in some minor molehill way can you?. (You cant make exams too hard either because its not fair on people who are "intellectually challenged")
Grr!
Read this, the guy is totally right:
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2008/03/so-what-was-you.htmlRelated:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6932836.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6303901.stmAt least the kids in holland care:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/11/369237.shtmlAll you would get out of many kids in the UK would be:
Yeh #¤%#*@!&#?*!istory dunno mate, teacher's a c*"#! (???) eh?, u wot? Skools f¤#"=&# @¤/t anyway innit!
again Grr!
