One time payment of Blitz3D source code...

Hi all,

Mark has spent so many years to develop this great tools.
It is unfair for him to share his codes with others without any money.
(Assuming you have developed a very successful game and you could still earn money from it, will you release this source code to registered users or public? Definitely NO! Then why ask Mark for this?)

I think we could follow what was happened to Blender.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_%28software%29
In the section of "History"



Finally, blender is actively developed and improved for each version...
The new version 2.46 is comming...

Maybe we could suggest an amount that could attract Mark agree and be happy, in return for his kindness to release the code and for the goodness of blitz3d future...

We Blitz3D users do CARE the future of Blitz3D and its community,
no matter the right or wrong of Blitz3d/blitzMax/Max3D in the past.
The future is the most important.

I hope everyone here could vote for an amount for Mark...

Assuming there are 300 registered users (I don't know how many),
I suggest each pay USD 100 for this.
so my suggested accumulated amount is 300 x 100 = USD 30000?
How about yours?

With respect to every Blitz3D users

I'm sure there are many qualified people around that could convert the original Blitz3D to Direct X 9, knowing some people made 3rd party DX9 engines :P.

Not this again. :/

*shoots self*

I doubt anyone would pay $100 again for blitz3d on the hope someone or group of people successfully update it to DX9. More to the point why should I pay $100 for someone else to get the source code for free that I and others have contributed to.

I seriously doubt a "conversion" would even be possible. It would more likely take a virtual re-write of the whole 3d engine and if that's the case it's pretty pointless as those talented enough would be better off putting their efforts into a separate 3rd party engine. It would require far, far too much work before you even started adding fluffy DX9 commands.

What are you hoping for in the end? Blitz3D with the commands :

AddShader ( watertexure, summersunshine )
AddBump ( walltexture, brick )
LightScene ( fog, visibility = 50 )
ShadowMode ( softandfluffy )
ReflectionMode ( wowfactor3 )

> NaN went bankrupt in 2002.

That's why Blender went open source.

@_33: How much amount would you suggest?

@GfK:Did anyone suggest this before?

@Qube: With Blitz3D source code in hand, would your code be much more efficient and accurate in timing?

@Markcw: the main character is Blender(Blitz3D), not the company.

What, making Blitz3D open source? Yes. Here (two days ago), here, and here in a thread that ran for over two years.

And that's just the ones I found - there's probably more.

Happy Sammy, I don't know, a big enough amount that ensures the source be kept in safe hands. Between 250 and 500 USD to me sounds honest, depending how clean the code actually is.

@_33: Good suggestion!
Options:
1. USD 250-500 per registered user.
2. USD 100 per registered user.

Any more?

(Don't imagine Mark would give out Blitz3D source code for free.
This will never be happen (except he is God)
This is the reality: Money is very important, especially in commercial society.)

Here's the reality: this is never ever going to happen. Not in a hundred million years.

Do you really think Mark would sell a decade of work for quote, "$250 to $500 per registered user"? Sure that'd be a lot if thousands of people bought it, but they simply wouldn't. He'd be lucky to get ten takers. One of those ten would do so, because they want to give it away to everyone via BitTorrent (don't tell me this doesn't happen, because it does).

Anyhow, I think you've subconsciously figured this out for yourself:


Even if he DID release the Blitz3D source code by any means, there'd still be people wittering on that BRL was holding them back somehow.

People are not going to pay for it. Even now you get people expecting Blitzmax for free because they paid £20 for Blitzbasic nearly a decade ago. "<Marksibly> Sure, have a free copy of Blitzmax. And how about the shirt off my back while you're at it?"

(OK, he's never actually said that, but I'm 99.9% confident he's thought it on more than one occasion)

@GFK:
That's why my topics is "One time payment".
Mark will only release the source code, on condition that he get the ACCUMULATED amount he agreed.
If that accumulated amount does not reach, nothing will happen.No source code.
Then this could avoid the problem of BitTorrent and protect the benefits of Mark. By the time BB source code on BitTorrent, Mark get what he want, users get source code for continue development. As a result, Blitz3D source code becomes open-source. Right?

Just like Blender,

Is Blender now afraid of BitTorrent? NO.


Edit:

When Mark get what he wants, he will release the complete Blitz3D source code. Or, God will punish him later for dishonesty!

Firstly if someone had $250-$500 to spare I doubt they'd pay for the Blitz3D source. Instead I think they would invest in one of the already established 3D Engines currently available. $500 buys them a multi-commercial license for tv3d 6.5 which has a lot of power and is very well established.

IF someone wanted something more simple like B3D they could purchase 3impact for $200.

Personally, myself, I wouldn't buy the source to Blitz3D if it were available.

Of course, this donation is not compulsory.
After an accumulated amount is agreed, each users could determine how much they could donate.
In spiderman I, spiderman's uncle told spiderman in his car, something like this...
"the more power you have, the more responsibility you bear"
If you can, you could donate more.

You know what? I can't even be bothered talking about this subject any more.

The whole thing is a ridiculous idea and that's that. Anybody who believes that Blitz3D will ever be open source, probably thinks the moon is made of cheese as well.

hehe or believe pigs can fly just because he saw it in Simpsons ...

He said "With great power comes great responsibility" which doens't really apply to this.....made up spiderman quotes to guide financial decisions? ok.

The first step in your plan would need to be to get Mark to agree a price, so why don't you contact him and see what happens. I don't think you will get too far.

Its a good idea, but only if no-one is buying Blitz3D anymore.

Well before that day NVIDIA and AMD will drop DX7 driver support and on that day its too late for this move.
Blitz3D needs to have the DX7 FFP features replaced with DX9 FFP soon ... the sooner the better, by 2010 its too late.

I converted the graphical 2D command set of BlitzMax to DirectX 9, well, say copied, built an engine on them, as a learning exercise:-

http://www.syntaxbomb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1998

It wasnt too bad actually, and one day, I may have a pop at moving Blitz3D over to DirectX10/10.1, though, not in the near future. A lot of things to do!

Ah, the clever argument ad ridiculoum from Gfk. Congratulations, the debate is over!

First: there's no way Blitz3D can be "upgraded" to DX9 without breaking compatiblity. From DX8 there's no more DirectDraw, so DrawText and a lot of other commands wouldn't work.

But that aside, B3D still needs some updates, like implementing those commands on Tom's DX7 DLL, giving the option to pass an icon as a parameter when creating the window, specifying the window initial size and position (all this can be achieved by hacking or coding, I know) or even Z-sorting of entities to fix the alpha problem.

This "donation" thing is very nice, but what happens if the specified ammount isnt reached? All the money will be sent back to everyone? If not, what people who payed will get for their money? Who will control the money donated/payed?

The idea is nice, but I don't see it happening...

Shouldn't you be hiding under a bridge somewhere robbing gold coins off travellers?

Grow up.

That's my job. Anyway, don't you know that "but I want it!" always trumps logic and common sense in online discussions?

well...if you want the source code contact Mark Sibly directly and ask him what he wants for more than 7(?) years of work. Mayble you can buy out even BRL...

$30.000 USD? What is that? 3 months salary? Why on earth would you sell something like that, so cheaply? Try at least $250.000 USD!

And that's really the core of the issue. The kind of people who want "The Blitz3D source code" are also the kind of people unwilling to pay the cost of software development - that more than anything else is why this is doomed from the start.

Of course you can. It's a privately held company. But nobody here is going to be able to afford to do so, or to hire the staff required to maintain it, never mind adding functionality. You can kind of tell by the way they think $500 USD will buy you a software development team.

And please don't try to come back with "But FlameDuck, it worked for Blender3D!". Sure. When BRL are chapter 11 (or whatever the law is in New Zealand), and up to their necks in legal fees, we'll talk again.

Mark - if you're reading this. I've got some magic beans. Wanna trade?

I would, under international law, veto any move by BRL to open source Blitz3D.

> Anybody who believes that Blitz3D will ever be open source, probably thinks the moon is made of cheese as well.

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but they probably believe that the moon landing was faked.

Lets not even go there. :)

We didn't. ;)

*runs*

I bet Mark is performing good luck maori rituals as we speak.

Personally, I think that anyone with an interest in building a new 3D engine for Blitz3D, would have their time better invested building one for Blitz Max.

@FlameDuck

The amount is determined by Mark and all members, not one person only.

@SLotman:


If the specified amount isn't reached, the money must be sent back to everyone.

As a member, I just want to think of some ways to help making Blitz3D open-source.
Blenders seems to have similar situation. That's why I quote it as an example.
This is just an idea. If there are better method, I would like to go that way, too. :)

From the above discussion, it seems that most of experienced users are not likely to make donations. I hope someone could think of a better method than this to make Blitz3D open-source.
IMO, there is no free lunch in the world. If you eat cheese, you need to pay for it.

Thank you for your comments.
:)

With best wishes.

Blitz3D sales are presumably drying up as we speak, so making Blitz3D open source for a payment might be a way to maximize profit (open source is a good selling point too, it allows the community to add features that BRL has no time to).

And to fix bugs BRL implemented in 1.99 and didn't adress yet.

With source code, users may use C++ debugger to trace the bugs of 1.99 and think of some ways to solve the problems themselves. No need to wait forever...

mr. Happy Sammy, lets put down some facts, shall we? Here we go

1) Even if mr. Mark release B3D source for free to B3D owners, Im VERy sure, 99% of existing users will have no idea what to do with it or how to use/upgrade it

2) For remaining 1% of population, capable to do something with B3D upgrade, upgrade itself will be a nightmare since B3d is designed too tight to DX7 and with thinking/approach of Mr. Mark, such capable guys have to understand on first place.

3) very soon guys from no.2 will drop it all and simply make their own stuff if they really want to, based on Dx9 or whatever, with maybe using some tips and tricks they use to see in B3D source, but thats all about having benefit for it..

Conclusion:
Forget about it and learn something you can use NOW..

1) That figure is likely closer to 100%. There are maybe a handful of people on this forum that could do something useful with the Blitz3D source code, and they are all way too busy with their own thing.

2) Also if you think the BlitzMAX documentation is bad, how well do you think the Blitz3D source code is documented? Not at all? Simply getting to understand it all is an enormous undertaking, one nobody here is willing to undertake out of the goodness of their hearts. Why? See 1) above.

3) Except no, because the techniques used in Blitz3D are obsolete. There isn't a single line of salvageable source code in Blitz3D. I'm sorry but Blitz3D is obsolete beyond repair. 3D hardware has simply advanced too far in the 8 (?) years since Blitz3D was written for it to have any merit.

1) Even if only a hand full that makes a hand full of interested ones, which is infinitely much more than right now with 0

2) Can't be that tight, otherwise B3D would follow the DX7 specs at 100% not at 80% + 20 hack-cent.
I agree thought that it surely won't be simple to understand, but compared to TGE and TGEA, I don't that the DX7 source will be that complex, neither compared to OGRE.

3) If I wanted to do that, I would have started writting either a BM module using existing technology, would have dropped B3D for Torque or would have started to write the not going to be finished DX9 Userlib number 10001 for BlitzPlus which is 1:1 identical commandwise to B3D to just use them without much work.
I'm to "lazy" to port the code from B3D to BM, if I am forced to move it I will move it to a professional environment not to one that still is not finished 2.5 years past release.

The whole point is, Blitz3D is the only Direct X solution from BRL, and it is so dated NOW that it is sickening!!!

At the moment, every single game in the casual game market can be coded in B3D with the same or often better results than the original counterpart.

If you want a DX9/DX10 engine you should move to BMax and buy a wrapped third party DX engine.

What if you don't want to make a game for the casual market?

At the moment is the problem ... if you start a larger project now, DX7 support in drivers will have potentially been dropped by the day you are finished.

I am not looking for shader technology (I own TGEA and Unity Indie if I need that for some reason), I'm looking for a Blitz3D that will just work in the future! It already has enough problems right now with texture load flag 2 and 4 and those problems definitely won't get any better.

Then read the second statement of the post.


Come on, to have DX7 support dropped altogether I would say that you should be coding a game for at the very least 5 years, and it is still a wild guess since Microsoft cares a lot (and I really mean it) about backward compatibility. It is an unjustified fear not supported by facts. Anyway, if that is the case you should choose a different solution in the first place, and even if you have been shortsighted and chosen B3D for a five year mission, spending two or three months for porting shouldn't be a big issue by then.

Anyway, I was referring to casual games which aren't really large projects, framework aside.

Direct X 7 came out summer 1999 (when the first Geforce and Radeon came out). Remember Half Life 1, or System Shock 2?

To take things into perspective, the first XBOX (launched in late 2001) is Direct X 8.1...

Here's some Vista stuff to get used to:
http://www.vistax64.com/vista-games/98515-directx-7-games.html

Adapt Blitz3D to the newer DirectX APIs, then some hack types will add the meat around it.


Here is Half Life 2 compared running on various Direct X APIs:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/567/567437p2.html

the differences between dx7 and dx9 are so huge, an upgrade is pretty much impossible. I would pay 100$ for a dx9/10 version of blitz3d that uses the same entity system and stuff.

To get used to if you don't install the full DirectX 9.0c package.

Maybe Rubux will eventually release their engine... Let's hope...

Really? Wanna take a shot at GridWars? Besides the lions share of casual games aren't 3D anyway, so you could make the same arguement for BlitzMAX. There are however tons of casual games that do clever little things with pixel shaders that you would not be able to do at all in Blitz3D.

Hahahah. If you think BRL has better documented source code, and more tech support resources, for their little one man project, than an open source 3D engine, then you're way past delusional. If the person who wrote Blitz3D in the first place couldn't upgrade the product to DX9, what on earth makes you think someone else even stands a chance?

Well tough luck. A programmable pipeline is the future (or rather it was the future about 4 or 5 years ago). Even now your nice new GeForce is actually using a programmable pipeline to emulate the fixed function pipeline of earlier GeForce models.

There's a DX9c for Vista?

Of course you can install DX9.0c runtimes (and should if you want to run most recent games). It's something most users don't even notice since most companies do it automatically when you install a game.


I was gonna add "except BMax games" but then found it obvious. :)


There aren't many (unless they are doing a xbox live arcade-type action game, but there aren't many of them and neither are the bestsellers). To say the truth, casual developers use the lowest requirements when possible, preferably under DX9 since Windows XP CD's made before SP2 have DX8 installed by default. You can check the demos by yourself: it is rare to see something beyond particles, sprite deformations and screen transitions.

Which part of "NVIDIA and ATI plan to drop DX7 support in the driver totally" is that hard to get that you insist on "DX7 is all you need"?

Technically I agree but unless you provide DX7 driver to all 3 major GPUs (Intel, NVIDIA, ATI) for a forseable future to prevent the guaranteed death, I guess you agree with me that insisting on staying with a guaranteed to die technology is dumber than just "not agreeable".

Let me see that official announcement.

Well you don't seem to have developed anything the past 12 months with Blitz3D, if you aren't aware of Blitz3Ds already existing issues and that even thought it is officially supported in the drivers.

I see, there isn't an annoucement about a DX7 support drop and so you resort to personal attacks (I actually coded quite a lot, but you're awfully going off-topic... you don't seem to have shown much code here either in the past two years). Your argument about 'the plan' is based on personal feelings about the industry then?

No about the fact that they started to stop to care about DX7 when they reached DX10 sadly ... Every second driver version has problems with loadtexture/B3D models and the texture flags 2,4,256
So this means about anything you want to do works or does not work and thats no little problem, at least to me.

What I said above was not a personal attack. There is very little use in personal attacks.
But if you developed something with it in the past months and sent it to testers, you would have run in the loadtexture issue reported by your testers. It seems like 1.99 is much more affected by that thought and BRL has shown no interest in that fact for the past X months.


Do I show code: Nope not anymore, unless I get payed for work. I offered some of my systems for free for quite some time in the past and if you do not even get simple mails telling you that they like it, I won't give it to those bloodsucking noobs anymore just like that, sorry.
I invested years in learning all aspects of Blitz and how to use it as efficient as possible and helped here and on the german Blitz3D boards. I invested quite some bucks as well into the different libraries.
My only problem is that I do not have a finished game to offer to play, mainly because my graphic skills are near inexistant or my dedication to them at least and I do not have the cash to hire an artist.

Dreamora, can you post up a link to a thread about the texture loading issue (I couldn't find one in the bug section)? I would like to read more as I am close to releasing something in b3d.

i had some texture problems here

It looks like you just had to use a power of two texture (which is always advisable).
Another suggestion: in the latest versions of B3D *always* add the 1 flag (i.e. LoadTexture("texture.bmp", 1) ).

I just want to ask 2 very simple question:

1. Today(2008 May 11), if we want to develop a game for selling and keep long-term relations with future customers,
should we use Blitz3D or Blitz3D-SDK for serious development for future version of windows,
without considering how much libraries or tools we bought in the past???
(eg. Fast Extend library, JV-ODE, PhysX wrapper for Blitz3D, Sprite candy,
Particle candy, KODE, AShadow, Easytok,etc.)

("Long-term relations" means once there are problems in programs reported by customers, we have the ability to solve them.
"serious development" means we could earn some money.)

2. How would you deal with the existing commercial blitz3D programs?
Just stay there doing nothing?

:)

Blitz3D is Vista compatible and can produce Vista compatible programs, end of story.

In future, please do not start threads on same topic as already exist.