Open B3D Source to Registered Users?

This is just a hypo anyway, I think BRL has their concerns, I just think about these:

1. B3D is a tested DX7 engine, however more engines are starting opening their source to licensed users, that may make B3D live longer.

2. Boost MiniB3D development, I knew Mark has helped simon a lot about B3D source, but it's only one-man-work which may cause some bottleneck.

3. Mark don't have to make it public, maybe a scheme like Torque might work, or a seperate license t the source access.

4. That's an easier way to extend B3D or add functionality, even upgrade the renderer to DX9 etc.

I think this suggestion is somehow boring or stupid, and we already have IrrB3D or MiniB3D etc.

If Max3D is going nowhere, I think Mark should extend minib3d, or work with klepto to get his newer version released and supported.

1) Blitz3D uses 3rd party propriety software (like FMOD). Try again.
2) MiniB3D has been "complete" for more than a year. What's there to boost?
3) Maybe Mark doesn't want you to have the source code. Maybe it's embarrassing. Maybe there are swear words in the comments that will turn your children into mindless axe wielding maniac zombies.
4) No it isn't. Blitz3D is apparently coupled too closely to DX7 to make a DX9 upgrade feasible. Otherwise Mark would have done it himself years ago.
5) No one cares about Blitz3D anymore anyway.

I think the whole thing should be open to developers maybe make a system where there is a nominal charge to get access to the inner workings of the system. Just because Mark cant make a DX9 version of Blitz3d doesnt mean that some of the coders here cant.

Microsoft does that with thier stuff, DBLtd does it too why not Mark?

Well no it doesn't mean they couldn't, although I am a little sceptical. If they can't do it without anyone anyone else's baggage weighing them down, I have a hard time believing that a huge wodge of someone else's code that they have to somehow understand is going to help them, but I'll concede it's a possibility. But why should Mark play Santa? We already got what we paid for. Why should he give us much much more for just a "nominal charge"?

Some pretty moderate priced engines go for at least $10,000 plus per user when you're talking about source licenses. Why shouldn't Mark be entitled to earn that ( or a portion of, seeing that it's two DX versions old. ) In fact, for all I know, he may already have sold source code licenses for $10k before now.

No they don't. At least I can't find the "src" directory on my Windows CD, nor can I find an option to purchase the Windows source code on their site. In fact they don't even sell their packaged software at what one could reasonably consider "nominal charge", never mind the actual source code.

Minib3d only supports .b3d for one thing.

Sure But writing an importer for any of the 2 (?) other formats is probably fairly benign, and doesn't really require access to the Blitz3D source, particularly since there are already tons of open source loaders available off the Internets.

Ogre which is free for Open source costs aproximately $5000 for a unrestricted license, and I think that may even be per title.

Been considering asking whether the flow wrapper would be classed as a single title, since that would allow for a single dll and smaller footprint with all the core components staticly linked.

This has been asked before:
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=40879

Result: no comment from BRL.

My forecast for this thread: still no comment.

Yoko,

Far easier than hacking into B3D would be to create a B3D type addon for Blitzmax, which is virtually the same language. Even easier, just extend miniB3D to your heart's content.

My forecast for any queries, ideas, or anything to remotely do with BRL: still no comment!

:)

I care about Blitz3D

I was expecting to see puki here as a Blitz3D fanboy who goes beyond caring for it :)

I had to step back.



"FlameDuck" brought shame on the community. People on other forums are laughing.

These forums are a shrine to Blitz3D.

I suggest he remove that comment.

Agreed with puki and boomboom.

Blitz3D gave me the tools to learn 3D on the PC, even learn some Direct X! With all the good things that Blitz3D brought to this world, I think everyone should care for Blitz3D.

So in a sense I agree with Flameduck, because if more people cared for Blitz3D, it would be better. Hopefully, some 3RD party add-ons are still being implemented.

So does the latest build of Torque. Try again.

Blitz3D could be used to accomplish so much if it were open sourced, or if Mark would at least attempt to get an Xbox 360 port license. These days Microsoft is much more favorable toward that sort of thing.

Do you think BRL care about these posts? Or do they prepare something big and that's the reason why they remain silent? I love Blitz3D too, it's the best tool I've ever used to develop games. Fun, easy, solid... And I would certainly love to see it expand and stay alive.

I wonder if there will be a 2.0 update and if so, what features will it contain.

I was going to reply to this thread, but given that these things typically end up with everybody handbagging everybody else, or complaining that not having DX9 is stifling their artistic talent, I don't think I'm going to bother.

Yes you will.

"FlameDuck" has been jolly naughty.

I luv Blitz3D too, even i do have pretty much everything out there regarding engines, available for one man show thingy, call me crazy or whatever, but I just like to have it, and play with it , having fun and stuff..so far majority of fun i had with B3D, lately Unity consumed me a lot and S2..C4 I dropped since I dun like it..soo..my expectations here are quite minimal regarding BRL, but honestly, they never went over edge called Blitz3D..soo, if somehow caused by magic potion served by Puki, Mark decide to change something regarding B3D API, I will be ready to buy it again..if not..im okay..life goes on :)

> Do you think BRL care about these posts?

I imagine they are sick and tired of these type of requests but don't want to say the obvious - that they are happy with their software just the way it is. I know I'm sick of them.

Mark just seems like a hobbyist these days who releases stuff when he feels like it. In the growing world of indie/amateur/pc dev software brl is such a small fish and team even. In the dx 7 days they were the best with b3d, which even today is very good, but they didn't even stand out then and show off the product, i only found them by mistake after using the pittyful darkbasic.

ps im not saying it's a bad thing though because he isn't trying to bleed us dry of cash by releasing half finished, buggy stuff, i actually think bmax is very good. Maybe he's just too much of a perfectionist and i don't doubt the mans talent's but where other devs keep releasing new stuff or even just updating news about products we just get 'blowing tumbleweed and cricket sounds' echoeing around us.

irrlicht.b3d is open source, cross platform and well over 50% completed. Why not just give gman a hand with that?
It 'feels' like B3D and the engine underneath supports OGL DX9, shadows, shaders, parallax mapping, loads of 3d formats and everything else people keep asking for.


-D4NM4N swings spiky "Man-bag"+2 for 5 Pts damage :)

As Blitz3D is used to develop commercial software like Realm Crafter and other, it would be a great step if the source was made available so the users could take care of the bugs that were introduced with 1.99, to make Blitz3D really DX7 compliant and life on for longer than it will in its current state ...

@Dreamora: Realm Crafter is no more developed with Blitz3D. The author use C++ instead because of DirectX7 of Blitz3D.


means "FlameDuck does not care about Blitz3D anymore anyway", but not every blitz3D users.

Hard to believe given I'm one of those working on RC Standard (the DX7 Blitz based one) and we released a few updates in the last 3 months.
RC Professional will be a pure shader DX9 render engine, but RC Standard and RC Professional will exist side a side to each other and fullfill different needs as not all develop the next Vanguard, Tabula Rasa and the like and therefore can not afford to have similar system requirements.

If the source was available to us, I think it would be much more convenient to do stuff like:
- Update engine to DX9 + add compiled shader loading / assign
- Incorporate shadow systems and functions
- Fix / improve the Antialias support + add Anisotropic modes and mip map modes
- Add double precision arythmetics
- Improve texture blending modes
- Add speed hacks to the text instruction (ala FastText) + improve font support
- improve performance when manipulating strings $
- Add jump table capabilities (even if it's like "On number goto label1, label2, label3 ..." like GWBASIC / BASICA)
.............

Maybe they lost the source like Maplet :s

Blitz3d has accomplished more than any other blitz software since it was released. I've not seen anything 3d wise, that can match work done with blitz3d. I mean an actual running game. Techno the base was done in blitz3d.

I'm not saying that other blitz software isn't capable, but i've yet to see anything running to say other wise. I still care about blitz3d :o)

Blitzmax and MiniB3D are *almost* as capable as Blitz3D and the command structure is mostly the same.

Still a few little bugs to iron out.

the thing is speed wise Minib3d isnt as fast as Blitz3d

I did say "almost" ;)

Not to reiterate the obvious flaw in your logic, but like Gabriel mentioned earlier: If they can't do it without anyone anyone else's baggage weighing them down, I have a hard time believing that a huge wodge of someone else's code that they have to somehow understand is going to help them.

Do you understand the above statement? If you can't build your own engine from scratch, you are not going to stand a snowballs chance in hell modifying someone elses.

Besides having an understanding of the underlying engine, in order to implement your other suggestions, said person would also need to understand how the compiler works.

Now let me reiterate my own point from earlier. While I realize there are a handful of Luddites desperately clinging to the illusion the Blitz3D is still good in 2008, anyone who is even remotely capable of pulling off a fraction of the things you want done, stopped caring about Blitz3D ages ago and moved onto something that allowed them to do what they wanted. They either did their own thing (John J, GrahamK, Halo) or used someone eleses thing (Gabriel, Evak/Cygnus).

Assassins Creed? Bioshock?

Sure. If you have somewhat loose definitions of the terms "Blitz3D" and "actual running game".

Really? Everything I tested was loads faster in MiniB3D, and with the added bonus that MiniB3D doesn't have arbitrary limits on how big your mesh can be.

Ok, stop asking, we tried this ages ago and we know it doesn't work. None of you have the time, skill, or energy to go through the Blitz3D code, sort things out, and replace the renderer without giving up about two days in. In no way would the Blitz3D source code benefit any of you.

Give it a rest. I did this ages ago, thinking it was a good idea. It's not. This doesn't work the way you think it will.

Oh sure they have. They can rewrite Windows and run a hugely successful business better than Microsoft don't you know.

You're not suggesting its all just hot air, are you?

Blitz3D is far from a dead product - it still sells - it is the only BRL product that was designed to be 3D ready - it is the only competition to competing TGC, etc products.

I cannot see "Sibly" letting it loose. Blitz3D is worth too much - there are people out there that can use Blitz3D to help them create a competing product. Blitz3D might be old, but it sells. It's one of the easiest to use products of its type.

As long as Dark Basic/Pro is being pushed, then Blitz3D is always going to be a valuable product.

In addition, look of the lack of Blitz3D users (who hunger for more) who are not using Cobra. Cobra must be closest thing to Blitz3D 2 that we are ever going to see.

Mmm, guests have been over at www.cobrabytes.com - taking a look - taking a snifter.

You can be a Blitzer and a Cobra user at the same time - don't be shy.

There are still some notable differences between MiniB3d and Blitz3D - the readme.txt and commands.html files packaged with MiniB3d V0.51 give the details. For many (most?) users the differences do not matter, for others they do.

B3D competing with DBP?
In which world actually? Language wise B3D might be above it. But the simple fact that B3D uses DX7 which is compatibility wise a larger and larger problems on XP as on Vista due to the dropping interest in supporting it at all on the pure shader GPUs definitely disqualifies it as concurrence to a DX9 based technology.

As mentioned more than once, ATI and NVIDIA are "soon" going to drop DX7 driver support (they already just carry it over more or less with very little testing why NVIDIA 100-168 are just ugly broken in most cases for example) and on that day Blitz3D is dead and Mark is not working on replacing the DX7 bindings with the corresponding or similar DX9 capabilities, at least as far as we know ... so within the next 12-18 months its granted to be dead if nothing happens till then either at BRL or at a DX7 emulation layer that works fully and correctly and that on XP, 2003, Vista, 2008, 32Bit as 64Bit

Nobody assumes to get top end DX9 shader technology (at least I don't, as I am not interested in that within Blitz). But I assume that something I program now will still run by the end of 2010 and with DX7 this definitely is not going to happen!!
Must be really hard to understand for BRL that beside very few users, most are just interested in future stable version of Blitz3D, not in eye candy shader usage. Those who are interested in that shifted away long ago or use BM with corresponding engine wrappers that allow that.
That B3D would become 10-100% faster just due to the move to 3D optimized drivers from the currently semi optimized drivers is a side effect, that isn't really that important after all (DX9 is optimized for heavy mesh pushing, DX7 breaks in far to fast on that end).

I may have forgot to mention, but thought it was pretty obvious, that i was talking about BRL products, as i also mentioned blitzmax in the same statement.