video games training killers?

http://kotaku.com/386441/perhaps-the-stupidest-anti+gta-vid-youll-see-today

I agree with his points, do you? What is wrong with our world that we celebrate killers and people that have no morals and we want to be like these people, well atleast in virtual world.

why dont we have some games where you dont kill, where you are thought about important things in life, so much killing everywhere.

Now I am off to buy this game to study it!!!

>>What is wrong with our world that we celebrate killers and people that have no morals and we want to be like these people, well atleast in virtual world.<<

Because this world is so damn screwed buddy, and its going to end like that...

No morals?? Haven't you noticed that the GTA protagonists are anti-drugs? As in it's cool not to do drugs? Sure they are violent serial killers but because killing somebody is beyond fantasy, influential people doing drugs is much more likely to get people into drugs than killing. GTA is helping more people than it's killing, whether right-wing religious nut jobs agree or not.

What po said.

One of the user comments:

This is exactly what I was thinking as I watched. My friend just got the game, and he told me you're also able to, in fact often encouraged to, drive legally, safely and courteously. Which is brilliant, I think! Makes it much more of an interactive film/proper role playing game...

Personally I like playing, say, Hitman. I don't get a sadistic thrill out of performing the hits, but I do enjoy the challenge. Kid commits a murder... police find a violent film or game in kid's bedroom... game is blamed. What about the vast majority of kids with just the same films that would never consider killing someone? It's easy to blame a game. Personally I think the true problem is the parents.

I do agree with you that real life murderers are sometimes glamorised, which is a sad state of affairs.

The local paper today carried a headline today 'the games that screw with childrens' minds!'. It was about GTA4 and the fact that it's been classified as R18 in New Zealand didn't seem to come into it.


We do - it's called casual gaming.

But in terms of general gaming, it's for several reasons.
Firstly, particularly in the early days of PC game dev, it was much easier to build excitement by having a pixel moving across a screen representing a bullet, rather than by trying to model complex social interactions. It was just a limitation of the medium.

Secondly, the whole field of programming simply appeals more to males and they are the ones who have built up the field of gaming. Even today, look at any dev team and they're mostly guys in their twenties/early thirties wearing cleverly captioned t-shirts and jeans. And they know what they like which is combat and space marines/special ops/orcs and bloody elves.

That annoys me too. I dont understand, are some parents stupid or something, is there a genetic defect that makes them idiots?
Its quite simple, DONT LET KIDS PLAY THEM OR WATCH THEM! Its not as if the warnings and ratings are not clear enough. Ignorance these days is no excuse as theres been enough press on the subject.

I mean how many parents would sit their kids in front of the "hostel" or other video nasties regulary, play unsupervised with fireworks or let them drink themselves stupid every night?
- If they did it could almost warrant removal of them by S.S. so why should any other restricted material be different.

Hell Yeah!

Because video games are about escapism. How many copies do you think a game where you had to fill in tax returns would sell? Do you know anybody who enjoys the thrill of filling out government forms?

More than you might think. However bad parenting is also not caused by videogames.

It's an interesting attitudinal phenomenon, similar to the attitude in US and UK being much more censorious of adult, consenting sex than of casual, fatal violence in films and TV shows. And a wider debate might include the US attitude towards gun ownership. But that's already been raked over in lots of other threads...

It's a problem, todays games whether you realize it or not, games like GTA IV are not good for future society. Brains of kids today are shaped by these games, millions of them will be playing this and it will be part of their reality. Maybe for FlameDuck who is man of 30 years this is escapism, but for someone young who's parents don't have time to baby sit him or pick his games this will become the reality because he was trained and society accepts it, next time he goes on his raping and killing spee in real world, he will quote FlameDuck "it's entertainment, its esapism but on a higer level, I decided to take it to the next level, it's all fun and games few people of flesh and blod got hurt but so what, I'm cool... I am escaping this boring reallity, etc...". As the reporter said these kids are training in virtual reality to become societies worst nightmares.

Sure you can say every parent should do it's job and not allow kids to play these games, but we know that millions of kids will be playing these games, and blame should not be put on unknowing parents, it should be put on people making these interactive games which allow you to "become" not anymore watch but you "become" and you pull the trigger and kill policemen, rape woman, do hit jobs, etc. Our societies are turning into zombie societies, and here is FlameDuck calling it "escapism". Good book or movie where you are third person watching or reading something that touches you, that moves you emotionally or stimulates your imagination is escapism.

GTA4 type of games is not escapism, it's a frigging training simulator that will be destroying entire generations of young unsuspecting minds who think its fun to kill cops and rape woman. By destroying I mean it will be acceptable in these kids mind to have these thing which they did in game do in the real world, when the trouble comes they will do what they have trained for decades, hit, run and rape. I mean it's fun in games, entire generation spend they time in front of computers no real interaction with human beeings, so what If I kill and rape someone, it's accepted, it's funwhen done in virtual environment, why whould it be different in the real world? It's slippery rope, maybe our generation is doing ok, but next 2-3-4 generations will be doing worser if these kind of games continue to be produces in future without much tougher control :) my 50$

That's stupid. If a game is released, you children will play it, whether you allow them to or not. If you don't let them have it, they are just going to go to their friend's house and play it without you knowing. And then you're just going to be considered the one parent with a stick up their butt, while everyone else's parents are cool.

The problem he is talking about is much bigger than a video game. It's about the intentional ruin of our culture. People are sheep, they will do anything Murray Rothstein tells them to. I see adults doing the stupidest sh*t because they saw Paris Hilton do it.

Think TV has no influence on the population? Give me control of the airwaves for ten years and then come back and see the changes.

when you have 12 years olds running around london with replica guns as a status symbol being antisocial for a laugh, and the police are afraid they are going to have to shoot them because they can't tell the difference.

I agree with maximo. Games like GTA would work well as a training tool. These days many gun crimes in the US are hard to trace. The bigger ones have upwards of 70,000 members, and the leaders can order a hit over their cell phone. Police have a hard time solving gang murders because the gangs now have an national network that crosses state boundaries. So a call in Florida can be used to activate an anonymous team in LA who will travel several hundred miles to do the hit and leave again, leaving very little clue for the cops to chase up on.

It really sucks, and kids will emulate behaviour for games initialy, some that stray will have a lot easier time getting around their concience (if they have one) if they have been desensitized by games and violent movies that celebrate the kind of behaviour they have previously admired in fantasy.

Very few people here on this forum have an objective opinion where their own choice of game genre is concerned. It's a hard thing to have, especially as it involves self-denial, unless that is, you can live with being an utter hypocrite. Everybody that likes sicko games here says they're okay. I would never even consider these trashy games that exploit the sleazy, selfish aspects of human nature. I would probably like GTA from a purely selfish point of view but in principle I cannot be for maintaining decent standards for everybody else and then go excusing myself like some repulsive politician.

I look at it like this. If I were about to land on some new and populated planet and parked my flying saucer in the outer atmosphere for a quick scan of the place, and then I saw the same obsession with all things vile being passed off as 'entertainment' I'd hit reverse and cordon the whole solar system off.

It's like there is a frightening mental illness spreading through the human race.

Yeah, I don't really object to GTA on the basis that it is violent, it is more that it reflects the gangsterization of America and England.

You don't see GTA:Stockholm because the Swedes don't put up with that kind of crap, and they have standards and a good culture. The populations of America and England have become totally passive.

And most of these people will argue that nothing matters until it kills them, so I say let those countries fall apart.

Kids whose parents don't have time for them are screwed either way. Stopping making or selling games isn't going to magically take him away from his bad parents and give him to decent parents. Parents who "don't have time" to look after their kids don't deserve to and shouldn't have kids.


And there's the nail in the coffin in the argument that these problems are caused by games. These games are available in all these countries where this isn't happening, so why is it only happening in America and England and maybe a few others? The answer is a whole slew of complex reasons involving greed-motivated politics, an older generation who think everyone else should raise their kids for them (don't even get me started on schools having to teach kids table manners) and let's not forget the people who excuse bad parenting and criminal behaviour by blaming videogames and movies, who have far more responsibility for the ills of society than the games and movies.

FlameDuck wasn't born a man of 30 years old. In his day the evil murder simulator was Mortal Kombat - a game he played at great lengths, it even partially motivated him to take up healthy exercise. Yet for some reason he doesn't run around tearing peoples still-beating hearts out through their chest, or ripping peoples heads off, with their spinal cords still attached.

Have you ever actually trained someone to kill? Or been trained by someone to kill? I was in the Royal Danish Marines, and I can promise you violent videogames, were not the order of the day. In fact the only "vile" media we were subjected to as part of our Infantryman training, was an informational video on why you should take care of your feet, so as to not contract gangrene. It was in black and white, and was to this day, the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. Why? Because the soldier whose foot just feel apart, was not virtual.

Sure. For training people to play GTA. Not for much else, certainly not to kill someone, or even jack a car.

Video games / Movies / Evening News does not desensitize you to violence. Paranoia and fear desensitize you to violence. Once they produce a credible case where someone has developed acute Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, from playing a video game, then lets talk. Until then, video games are escapism.

Yes. Because without games like GTA IV there wouldn't be a "Russkaya Mafiya". Think of all the lives that could have been saved, if people who played too much GTA : San Andreas hadn't been duped into thinking that rioting and pillaging are socially acceptable, and tore up downtown LA, simply because four upstanding officers of the peace helped a poor black man stand after he'd fallen down and beaten himself repeatedly with a police baton.

Sure. But since the human race, predates video games by about 6 million years (6000 years if you're a new earth creationist) the "cause and effect" is fairly simple to determine. George Bush decided to wage war on Iraq because he played too much Stratego as a child? Get real! What video game was Cain playing?

so in the other words, we are all living in a moraly and mentaly screwed world and games which have power to transform people are not doing anything to help stop this, instead they are doing everything to promote this and for what reason? so that 1% of people who profit on them can continue their self indulgent life styles not caring if product they made have any negative impact on society at all. As Mister FlameDuck put it, it's all about money, how it's made it does not matter as long as it is maid. in words of a spartan: this is madness!

wow, on what planet is that? you must be old earth creationist dude! 6 million years, wow were there any dinosaurs then with humans mister duck?

When I was young we went to theather to watch kungfu movies. After just 1.5 hour of watching the movie we'd come out and start jumping in the air, kicking and shadow fighting and even attacking other kids that were not in our "gang". I guess we were just creazy? I mean 1.5 hours inspired us to do that, to think that we are bruce lee and that we can kick other peopls ass. I was what 12-14 back then?

Now imagine kid of today, spending 30-60 hours playing a character that rapes, kills, shoots, puts on fire, etc. He is not going to be affected at all, i guess that is what you are saying?

You are fool to belive that experiences that you get in your "escapism worlds" will not have any effect on you or not transform you in some way. Thanks God for you Duck, I mean you are not running around MortalKilling anytone YET. Who knows maybe you will if put under enough stress...

It wouldn't be a decent Rockstar release without some overzealous finger pointing media coverage. Free advertising, I say.

pssst I am rockstar promotion manager, pssst dont tell anyone :D ;)

Yes. Read much history?

Actually they are. They are keeping violent psychopaths indoors, playing video games, instead of outside stalking their next victim.

But violent video games DO have a positive impact on society. Look up statistics for violent crime, in any industrialized country (where violent video games are available), you'll notice a constant decline since about 1992. Compare this to countries without violent video games (like Sudan). Which of the 2 general populations seems most desensitized to violence? The one that has people playing GTA IV, or the one which has public executions, and corpses dragged down the streets?

I didn't say that. I said that your assertion is incorrect and that I consider your opinion ill informed. There are lots of things one should not do for money, thankfully most of them are already illegal.

No. They died out 65-70 million years ago IIRC.

Yeah. Pretty much.

Sure. Under "enough" stress anyone can go postal, regardless of the amount of violent media they have been exposed to. But personally I'd take my frustrations out on my video games, and not other kids at the cinema.

Games like Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto just made me want to learn how to make games, how the physics worked. I became a game programmer and studied physics because of games. If someone wants to be a killer then they'll use any excuse game, parent, teacher, bully, whatever. I don't think games are the cause. People have always formed gangs and such as a source of power and stability. These gangs are no different than countries at their core, groups of people coming together to support each other. They have rules and hierarchies which have nothing to do with GTA and everything to do with survival. The game may glorify the lifestyle but only to someone who's already chosen that lifestyle.

... and at the same time I've no interest in making games that contain graphic violence.

TBH I think there is a certain section of society that become way to engrossed in this and play it every waking moment. Its these sort of people that shouldnt play games like GTA, its these people that become maniacs.

For the rest of us we detach from the game when we close it and drop back to the desktop.

As ever the proponents and apologists for vicious, violent tack and sleaze try to wedge opposite opinion into their own (quite worrying) black and white framework.
I don't recall anybody claiming these games automatically cause murder and the like, but even a deaf, dumb and lobotomized primate would deduce it certainly sends out the wrong signals for one and all. You can't sanely condemn the same sort of behaviour in real-life and then gleefully emulate it in a sick game...and with such emphasis and detail.

Human history might well be full of violence and slaughter, but I expect back then there were far less pseudo-intellectual hypocrites to enjoy or profit from it whilst airing their liberal, goody-goody, 'what ever rocks your boat' credentials. You'd think for the sake of sanity we'd draw a line and say don't EVER cross it. But no, that would take restraint, and if there's one thing the gelded western metro-fag that calls itself modern-man cannot abide nowadays it's self-discipline and restraint. We've only a few taboos left. In a few years time when stuff like GTA 7 (as well as mags, books films etc) has paedophilia included (with a new responsible age limit of 21 of course) the same people defending this trash here will be spouting how this can in no way encourage you or me to fiddle with children. And all the massaging of statistics in the world won't change the reality of rampant, increasing perversion and pointless violence one Iota.

GTA might not command the peons to go out and slaughter people but it definitely says 'Hey! It's no big deal - we take this sort of stuff very lightly anyway.'

GTA is boring anyways, who would waste their time being a criminal.. especially in a virtual world.

I however, am looking forward to The Force Unleashed.

It's all about where people get the ideas from.

Video Games influence behaviour just as much as all other media does. It could be good or bad.

Well said Hujiko, thats exactly how I feel about it.

I've seen many more violent reactions and fights over basketball games than I have video games. Perhaps we should get rid of sports?

there is an easy solution, put your 'adult' themed games out of your kids reach. Hujiko's 2nd paragraph is very thought provoking however, if maybe going a bit far to prove a point.

you know, that is a good suggestion!

I don't think games cause violent behavior, except in borderline individuals who are easily pushed over the edge. It's more about making people passive and tolerant of all things destructive.

What is it with this idea of good parenting? Do you really think any parent has the power to prevent their child from playing a violent game, when they can just go to an arcade or a friend's house? If it's on the streets, there's going to be one kid who's parents let him do anything, and everyone is going to go to their house to play it.

The only way to protect your children from exposure to things you don't want them to have is to form a village like the FLDS people, and then the government will come in and take your children, or like in Waco they will just kill you. Or in Germany, the government takes home-schooled kids away from their parents.

I don't think this will influence a significant number of people to commit criminal acts. Regardless, is this something you want to have around you?:


Something is really wrong in Western civillization right now. I am in favor of trying anything to fix this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4774412

Liberals will tell you there is nothing to worry about, there is no cause for this, or that it's all the fault of heterosexual white males in some way shape or form. Conservatives will tell you it is because you don't pray enough to the great joo-joo in the sky, or because you are not supporting the occupation of Iraq. Both these explanations are insane.

I think the guy in the video is speaking some sense.
Alone from the first screenshots of GTA4 I thought, why do people even want to play this kind of boring games, where there are only stupid and violent people.

I'm making a game where violence will be punished, maybe even so that the player gets sick in real life by swaying the screen sub-consciousnessly. And the game is not about boring all day life, but about some mysteries and higher civilizations and intellengence. Just try to be violent in that game, and you will loose. Try to be friendly, collaborative and intelligent and you will win :)

stopped reading at this point so forgive me if im saying something already said

nope the messenger said "this is madness"
king leonodis? said "no this is SPARTA!"

and if you have seen the film then in those days the spartan males were raised to be warriors (no such thing as pacifism for them) what might be playground scuffles to us would be the equivelant to a dirty look in their books

as for teaching you about car jacking i can see em getting the window smashed then coming unstuck when the abxy button combination fails to work from their wireless 360 game pad

People have always liked death and killing. In the Middle Ages public executions were entertaining events. Besides, the very same violent stuff has been glorified in movies for decades and decades, and the world has gone from violent to less violent.

Well said Leadworks


It depends on the person. People can be just as easily influenced by the people around them in a bad way even if neither party has violent/sexual/drug (whatever) video games.

I am not against the violence part. Halo, medal of honor,and stuff like that are ok. Violence can be used for good things like defending your country and what not. But drug abuse and rape in videogames is asking for trouble.

One of the things that disturbs me tho, and is wrong no matter how you say it is one day i was at a friends house helping him with something, and his brother was over, with his 5 year old daughter playing Gta San Andreas. An they were in a strip club. An the guy just let her play it. I was like Holy Crap.

Books training killers...... CIA training killers......... ARMY training killers...... Games? Really? Choose your destiny, don't get fooled.

This thread has made me sick to my stomach... I'm quite dissappionted (and a bit disgusted) by some of the views expressed here.

Sure, you say you're not affected... but if you deny the effect it has on thousands of people less intellectually gifted than yourselves, then you're lying to yourself.

Personally, I'm torn down the middle. The GTA games are revolutionary and amazing productions in regard to the industry... but I cannot ignore its lack of morality.

Yes actually. That's exactly what you can, if you're able to tell the difference between reality and make believe. And if you can't violent video games are the very least of your worries!

If the fact that it isn't (yet) in a mainstream video game, is the only thing preventing you from sexually assaulting your children, you need to seek help. You need to do this now.

Organized religion? You want to see examples of glorified filth and violence, read the bible! Why is this worse than GTA IV? Because for instance, Davids merciless slaughter of the Moabite prisoners of war - is something you have to use your imagination to visualize.

Yes it is. Too bad it's factually incorrect.

Why? They can also be used for good things (namely making good musicians, and good interrogators respectively).

Except the women aren't naked, so it's not exactly a strip club.

I'm sorry, but it IS down to the parents. Look at the Madeline McCann incident. Her parent were sooooooooo far wrong it's unbelievable. They are BAD parents, however much you feel sorry for them. As most decent parents will tell you, you never EVER leave children that age by themselves unsupervised. They are even talking about them leaving the door unlocked...

Plus, kids aren't exactly stealthy with their showing of violence. Parents should be able to spot this. My mum used to give me a right good slap and that'd put me in place.

As someone mentioned back up there /\ somewhere, there are people in countries (take Zimb. for example) I can't be 100% sure, but i'm sure the mass violence isn't down to copies of GTA 4 being released early over there, if they even have enough money to buy their food, never mind computer games.

I think everyone should be more worried about these rappers you see on telly, rapping about guns and how they've killed 20 people and had 25 hoes.

The most terrifying thing though, is children may grow up with the belief that all rappers walk and drive flashy cars reeeeeeeeeeeeally slow. (that really gets to me ;o))

Really? How do you define lying to yourself then? Would you say someone who persists on repeating the myth that violent games contribute to violent behavior, despite all evidence to the contrary, is lying (in a broader sense, but also to themselves)?

I would say that anybody who maintains that Rape being down by a factor 5, Robbery by a factor 3, Aggravated Assault also by a factor 3, Simple Assault by a factor 2 and violent crime (in the US) being at an unprecedented historical low (that is not once, in the combined history of the US, has there been less violence than now), is somehow a sign that the world is going to hell in a hand basket, and violent video games and/or media is somehow to blame is at best delusional and at worst batshit insane!

BTW, here is the link to the facts, as posted in Paul's wonderful chart above. Google it for more than 5 seconds, and you'll find the numbers similar for all countries were violent video games are available.

How mainstream does something have to get before you can overcome your media-induced mental trip-circuit of denial? Does it have to be non-stop 'in-your-face' breakfast television in big block letters reading 'PAEDOPHILIA'? Even then I'd expect more apologetics and asinine reasoning. The biggest fools are those who fool themselves.

The internet alone is rife with paedophilia - filthy porn is obsessed with so-called barely legal - why the obsession with youth? The music industry bombards kids with sexualized image after image. Many schools now teach all kind of perversion as normal and healthy to toddlers!!. There are calls from many quarters and concerted efforts underway to lessen the stigma of child molestation. They only have to try something as simple as redefining it, making it something less alarming, and all like-minded hedonistic self-worshipers will eventually accept the well-informed reasonings of their favourite media icon whores. 'Hey it's not harming anyone' - 'Kids can make choices too.' 'Define a kid?' ' Bringing adults and children closer together' etc.. Look what they did to the word 'love'? Total inversion from 'selflessness' to shameless 'selfishness' in the space of a single generation. Once the stigma is eroded and the boundaries of the law pushed even further into absurdity no doubt there will be 'cutter and pasters' on forums everywhere defending it.

We're all on a metaphorical barge right now, and it's slowly coasting towards an amoral whirlpool of horror - we have been for the past 50 years but so long as standards continue (as by plan) to deteriorate by stealth the self-anaesthetised have plenty of vapid ammunition for mockery and ridicule.

Distraction, innuendo, and even irreligious biblical finger pointing - all indicators of somebody without a justified, or even compelling argument for such violent tack and sleaze, yet nonetheless determined to defend their addiction to it, as well as trying to position themselves beyond reproach.

GTA isn't by any measure guilty of all of this yet, but it stands as just one of a number of embarrassing symptoms of a modern so-called 'intelligent' society in terminal decline.

OOOH! Statistics! Facts!! My Government wouldn't lie to me - they love me, and so does every international banker and media mogul! I can't believe how far some people will stoop to avoid uncomfortable conclusions. It was only 50 years ago in Britain when people never locked their doors at night! But here's some telling figures, and you can bet your Aunt Nelly's last Bingo book these figures have been tweaked and re-arranged to lessen the actual impact of serious violent crime and sexual assault. Sometimes no amount of slimy snake oil can pull it off.

Scales over eyes will never fail though.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page24.asp
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page66.asp

I'm more worried about the increasing number of people who apparently can't recognise the difference between reality and fiction.

If somebody's fruitloop kid decides to go out and murder a bunch of people, then the tendency to do it would be there even if GTA didn't exist. What did people blame for the actions of loonies before computer games and Marilyn Manson existed, I wonder?

Woh! You should be a fiction writer! That sounds dangerous :o) It's only a game :oP



Uh huh. I'm sure that happened everywhere in britain... You forget as well, 50 years ago, people were still feeling the effects of the world wars, and were more closer knit >because< of that.

I don't believe anything the government say anyway. Everyone knows they lie about everything, and are trying to squeeze the UK population for every penny they have.

I could give a straightforward and correct explanation for this but it would conflict with PC/Marxist ideology.

Point being, it's not down to video games.

No people weren't more closer knit 50 years ago because of war.

It has more to do with broken families, lack of social responsibility and pride, no respect for ones self or others. Poor city and town planning that favours vehicles over pedestrians forcing isolationism and anonmity.

People simply don't get involved in their neighbourhoods and get to meet people out in the streets like they used to. The media breeds fear in the population so even in safe neighbourhoods people are afraid to let their kids play out in the streets and walk to school. Many would rather keep them cooped up at home watching TV and playing games rather than have real social interactions outside of a controlled school environment, making it hard for them to understand basic fundamental social interaction. There are fewer consequences for delinqent behaviour. Those people that are supposed to disiplin children and teach them how to be socialy responsible often don't have the authority to do so.

When I was a kid there were almost no single parent families, (unless the father was working on an oilrig or detained at her majesties convenience). Divorce was almost nonexistent and something to be frowned upon, families stuck together, everyone in the community knew each other and looked out for one another. And this was only 20-25 years ago.

Only touching the tip of the iceberg and avoiding politics, but the world is nothing like it was 50 years ago, and in many ways its much worse.

Its one thing to say that video games are merely a part of a growing movement towards a moral decline, but another to say it does not contribute at all.

Its all a matter of perspective... we're on a computer programming forum. If I went to a music forum and said "Rap music is the cause of moral decline" I would receive the response "Oh, but what about video games and television" and "parents are responsible for what their kids listen to." If I went to a forum for every so called "real reason" for violence, each reason would blame the others.

Such a touchy subject... No side can prove the other wrong. Reminds me of an argument I had on the better side scroller series: Sonic or Mario. I'm still internally conflicted about that one...

The difference between the world now and 50 years ago is that people aren't struggling for survival but rather happiness. 50 years ago it would have been suicidal (or nearly) for an unhappy housewife to leave her husband. These days people are searching for the ideal not the necessary. It's unfortunate though that often times they drop the ideal situation right under their nose instead of working through minor issues.

..i always liked smurfs and today teletubbies...they seems to me so softy and rounded and having said that, i like female tits abd butt sooo much and im grateful for that...obviously, i was affected...yes...

Number of working people + (Number of poor people * Number of aliens) = Total Amount of Crime

Indeed. At least there's something we agree on.

So tell me which video game was Josef Fritzl been playing 24 years ago? Pedophilia has always existed, and if you had any understanding of history, you'd realize that it hasn't always been a "taboo". In ancient times it was actually customary. So in reality, we have moved in the exact opposite direction than what you're predicting.

First of all, I'm not addicted. Secondly, you're the one defending these violent "video games made me do it" psychopaths, by justifying their excuse for their anti-social behavior. Not me. And I wasn't aware that I needed a compelling argument for why I wanted to do something in a free society - if it's fun and doesn't harm others, why the hell shouldn't I be allowed to do it?

Playing Mario made me kill a spider.

Because of that, I dont play video games now, or watch TV, or listen to music, or read... I sit in the airing cupboard all day...

Just in case I go berserk again and do something really stupid.. like swat a fly or something!

But there was no spider enemies in super ma... OH NO! YOU MONSTER!

I recommend reading the latest study from Harvard on the subject: There is no evidence for a video gaming - violence relation. And by the way, this study was financed by republican politician who --wanted-- them to find such evidence, but the scientists at Harvard had to disappoint their sponsor.

I think this is more about conditioning people to accept the ruin of their country as "normal".

-The Mexican military runs drugs inside U.S. borders.
-The Hispanic gang MS-13 is engaged in ethnic cleansing of blacks in California. (Oh no, liberals don't know how to react to this one!!!)
-95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
-My next door neighbor in high school shot and killed a SWAT officer before he was killed. He was part of some Mexican gang.

A game that glorifies gang trash, drugs, and crime is a kick in the teeth right now, especially living in California. It's like marketing a Vietnam war game in Asia.

There won't be any borders soon. North America, Canada and Mexico are uniting to form a single entity, with the common currency of the Amero. It's all signed, sealed and about to be delivered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hiPrsc9g98

the armed children of africa are not influenced by gta or rap or anything
they were just given a gun (almost as long as they are tall) and told to shoot the enemy

i did an old search of my posts last month and stumbled upon the palistinian suicide bomber flash game
played it a bit but found it more pointless than tasteless
(perhaps if i was jewish or isralie it would be more offended) but having said that a video game to train suicide bombers would teach them that their is no next level (unless you believe the hogwash of eternal glory)

Come now, that's rather an exaggeration, don't you think? Not that what you're implying would be a bad thing, mind you.

I don't think. Only time will tell for sure, I guess.

That is the problem, people don't think, mission achived, now we can put bush as a puppet and start wars all over the world, because people don't think anymore, they let time show them how their not thinking about future ruined future for billions of people around the world.

Not stab at you John, but you wrote it perfectly, you dont think, you do not allow your self to think, you let the time show, well it will be late by then ;) Think now, think hard! Revolution must start in USA and spread to the rest of the world. Capitalist bastards wants us to not think and loose our selfs in mindless and pointless entertainment.

Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism it's the opposite. Viva la revolucion!

I think you'll find it's the governments and armies of the world doing that!

Oh, absolutely. But governments and armies are collections of individuals.

Only someone who aims to create said "mindless and pointless" entertainment and has failed to do so would say such a thing. If entertainment is so "mindless and pointless" why would you be trying to make video games?

Capitalism is a much finer pursuit than war. It's not perfect by a long shot but it's the best thing we've come up with so far. It actually causes people to think so they can come up with their own million dollar idea, not the other way around. At any given time you can stop utilizing the "mindless and pointless" entertainment provided by others and create your own. In the meantime it's usually pretty good inspiration to get your ass in gear.

Woah- easy, Maximo! I agree with you that a lot of people refuse to wake up and think, I disagree on your assertion that I'm one of them. The problem is what do you do to tackle it? How many Americans are aware of the Amero? How many Americans understand the real cause of the devaluing dollar? You can lead a horse to water. You can't make it drink. So what's the answer, Maximo? What are you doing to tackle the problem?

I think that in some circumstances developers should be made responsible for creating thoughtless junk that preys on the worst side of human nature and does nothing more than simulate the worst most degraded bahavious in modern society.

Both GTA and Manhunt are prime examples of the kinds of things that should never have been. I'm normaly ok with most kinds of violence in games so long as it is pure fantasy and isn't likely to be emulated, or games that simulate wars where sides are clearly defined. Games like GTA are basicly exagerated simulations of what really goes on all the time in our cities and shouldn't be encouraged.

Capitalism most often comes down to exploiting others for your own gain. I don't think its the best solution either. People complain about countries like China, developing countries are using oil hiking up prices mostly for our gain. It's often overlooked that we created their need by expoiting those countries cheap workforce. Most of the energy requirements in those places are the direct result of our manufacturing our own goods on their soil so we can have a better quality of life cheap prices, and better air. Whilst a few over there get rich and the majority suffer at our expense.

GTA is pure satire, nothing any adult can't chuckle at and move on with regular life. Kids should not be playing it though. Considering what Leadwerks said above about at least one kid on the block getting his/her hands on it I agree that developers should be more responsible. That said, I think GTA has a lot more to offer than it's sick sense of humor and violent aspects. There's a lot of depth there that could be applied in a much nicer direction. I still enjoy the game though.

I agree that there are some aspects of the game that are groundbreaking. It does look like it takes a living breathing realistic world to a new level. Playing the game as the cops defending the normal people on the streets from thugs could definately be fun and the option in MP would interest me. In my opinion it's a shame that it couldn't focus more on that aspect.

Censorship = Dictatorship

you don't like it, you don't play it.

Personally i don't enjoy playing GTA and the likes.

Now let's compare video games to movies, a movie like "Blood feast" (1963) was considered highly outrageous when it came out. Nowdays it almost looks ridiculous.
My point is there will always be something for people to consider this is the end of society and of 'good morals/whatever'.

Sometimes you need censorship and I don't believe for one minute that censorship = dictatorship. Thats just when things are taken to an extreme.

Me coming to your house and punching you in the face, taking all your belongings and then kicking you in the butt would by todays standards be considered outrageous, but don't worry in 10-20 years that will also become accepted and nobody will do anything to stop it, people will laugh at you because games though them so.

These games are fun, true but in every game there is a lesson and GTA4 is teaching you some bad lessons, kids play them and kids will draw wrong conclusions by these games. Last thing we need is sociaity full of people who are accepting things that should be outrageous. And they are accepting them because it's fun to do it in the games.

FlameDuck is wrong, we don't need any psychopaths going out and shooting people, these games will switch of moral parts of our society so more and more things that should never be allowed and accepted will become acceptable. In the end we'll have BigBrother sociaty imposed on us because we don't have any respect for each other nor any morals, big corporation will use this and put us all under their control so they can provide their own version of society.

the best thing would be to find some way of enforcing the age restrictions or at least have parents take them seriously, because lets face it GTA is no more violent than your average b movie theses days.

how about chipping teenagers so that of they try and play GTA they explode like logans run in the carousel.

I thought that happened now... if someone comes into your house, and you lay a finger on them, your up in court for assault.

Well, in the UK it seems... but UK laws are bent and



doesnt hold true...

Maximo, what you describe has always happened and I'm pretty sure it was worse during the Middle Ages. I think people like to experiment, games let them do that without real world consequences. Apparently, it's not only the psychopaths that need to learn the difference between reality and fiction. Games aren't real there's no reason to censor them. Millions of people have played Grand Theft Auto and you know what ... the world is pretty much the same (if not nicer) as it was before the series existed.

Much of the content in GTA makes me sick but it only serves to enforce my real beliefs about life. I don't like the criminal lifestyle and experiencing the game doesn't change that. If someone is pre-disposed to like that sort of thing they're going to do it with or without the game.

Heck, by looking at the statistics it looks like many game players have actually chosen not to get involved in the criminal lifestyle because by playing the game they've witnessed how ugly it is. I would argue that playing Grand Theft Auto actually has social benefits. Who wants to be around that ugly lifestyle after experiencing it? Once you play the game there's no wondering what it's all about, it's no way to live a real life.

Anyone who play's GTA and wishes for that over their actual life has a really crappy life and that's a much larger socio-economic issue than simply banning the game.

There are large segments of the population within which violence, rape, and crime are desirable behaviors, and will determine one's status within the community.

Large segments? I'd hate to live where you live.

I don't think you should project your views on the rest of the population. Just because 80% of the population are fundamentaly good doesn't mean that the 5-10% of seriously bad eggs don't feel the same way as you do.

In Richmond east bay area theres an area called the iron triangle, mostly residential but includes the business district.

Here's a breakdown of serious crime there in the last 8 months.

2008

Apr. 22 Man Shot Multiple Times In Robbery
Apr. 17 Three Injured In Drive-By Shooting. Iron tiangle
Mar.30 Church Shooting Leaves 1 Dead, 4 Injured 5 people were shot in front of Church of the Living God Sunday morning as they were setting up for a homeless outreach event
Feb.28 2nd Murder In N. Richmond In 2 Days
Feb.11 Man Dies After Shooting At Intersection
Feb.3 Shooting killed one man and injured 2nd
Jan.30 2 Women Killed In 12 Hours In Richmond. Iron Triangle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

year 2007 ... more >

Dec.28 3 killed in shootings
Dec.17 5 Killed In Recent String Of Shootings The death of a person in a pair of shootings has pushed the city's homicide count to 43 this year, one more than last year's total
Nov.27 Pizza Deliveryman Shot Dead
Nov.23 3 Killed In Pair Of Drive-By Shootings. Iron Triangle
Oct.20 Man killed, woman in critical after shooting. Iron Triangle
Sep.12 10 Shot, 2 Killed In 24 Hours

------

I'm not saying that its caused by GTA, but its the same kind of behaviour.

its the kind of 'life' that 'art' is imitating not the other way round
drive by shootings have happend since the whenever-ties

its only since gta that this aspect of life has been turned into a video game

i dont recall any speccy or c64 games that had you posing as a rapist trying to rape your way to the end of the level before getting caught
infact most games were the opposite renagade had you kicking gangland arse with a buddy or by yourself (try that in real life and see how long or should that be short you live)

afaik the warriors is the only movie based on gang life (i could be well out there) but if one was out that had the 'hero' end up dead or in jail its a better ending than lives to commit more crime another day

Yeah, I just don't feel those aspects of life should be imitated in games for entertainment.

ironically its white middle class people who are producing this stuff:)

Evak wrote:


So that whole "right to bear arms" thing isn't working out too well for you, eh? Maybe that should be looked at before people start thinking about banning games.

It's interesting to note that when questioned about their views, pro-censors often say, "Of course, I know the difference between life and art, but other people..."

It is nearly impossible to obtain a permit to carry a concealed firearm in California. Most weapons used in crimes here are stolen or purchased illegally.

Not surprising that a Brit doesn't want Americans to own guns, considering our history.

And yet there's less gun crime in most other developed western countries. Strange that.

All in all, games and tv are just to shut peoples eyes to whats really happening in the world. There is so much more wrong with the world than bad video games. SO much.

And what is the hotly discussed topics? Whether GTA 4 is a bad game? When the next Quad CPU is coming out?

Ever heard of a guy called Paul Chek?

You also don't have MS-13 operating across your country, and approximately 40 million undocumented felons wandering around.

The thing is, there's always been lots of really bad stuff happening around the world. And people have always been "outraged" by new forms of entertainment. These discussions the censorship of video games have been repeated throughout history.

... which supports the broader point that I was trying to make: that there are important social/cultural/legislative/governmental issues that need to be addressed (in both our countries) before we consider banning video games.

im more offended by the fact that i earn in one hour what some child labour 'slave' earns in one month making a tshirt that can sell for either .99p or £19.99 depending on if it has a logo on it or not

but if gta keeps the asbo nation off the streets ...

I think everyone can agree that although GTA is tasteless there are (have been for centuries) far worse things going on in the world and that censoring tasteless entertainment has nothing to do with stopping those things. As it was said these games are produced by well educated upper-middle class people who most likely have never partaken in such acts. In a way the game is ridiculing less civilized life which of course is tasteless, but it's not the cause of that lifestyle.

When people talk about "addressing" these issues what they really mean is putting millions of dollars into social programs that have never produced results, and never will.

I object to stuff like GTA and gangster rap because it conditions people to accept crime and gangs as "normal". It inserts what should be completely unacceptable things into the mainstream culture, and in so doing, changes the culture for the worse.

when I was growing up it was punk rock causing the same 'moral' outrage.
I actually was really in to punk rock and was in a gang for while aged 10 or 11.

There will always be gangs , there will always be subcultures.
People should stop getting their knickers in a twist.

These games are not made by rapper or gangsters , they are made by the middle class inteligencia and are just aping the behaviour of a subculture they can never be part of .

I remember going for an interview at a place where they were making BBox games and it was quite funny because there was not one black person working there and they were all 'posh' types.

ali G and the Staines massive sprang to mind.

Today on the BBC: Why are girls fighting like boys?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7384394.stm

A speech by a Chief Rabbi of all people. Self-worshipers everywhere activate trip-switches now:

*************************

There's a crisis on our streets, especially in London, and it has nothing to do with the cost of housing. As the blame game is played out between ministers and bankers over why mortgages are suddenly much more expensive, the price of life in parts of Britain's inner cities has hit rock bottom.

Forget, for a moment, that the property market is dying, and look instead at the number of murders through unprovoked attacks by amoral teenagers demanding a perverse "respect". While we obsess about a rise in payments to the building society, the society we have built is falling apart.

In two court cases at the Old Bailey this week, details emerged of killings perpetrated by gangs of youths, some as young as 14, operating like hyenas. They hunted in packs and slaughtered their prey.

In February last year, in an affluent area of west London, a group of feral monsters set about 16-year-old Kodja Yenga with knives, hammers and baseball bats. The boy, a regular churchgoer, who was studying for AS levels, died in hospital, having been beaten and stabbed by five members of the MDP gang - Murder Dem Pussies.

Two months later, on Good Friday, a few miles across the capital in Leytonstone, 14-year-old Paul Erhahon was walking home when he bumped into the Cathall Street Bois gang, described in court as a "cult obsessed with violence". One of the older boys, aged 15, ordered the "youngers" to attack Erhahon. He was stabbed through the heart with a sword.

In both instances, the victims were assailed by a rampaging mob, howling for blood. The culprits appeared to have no fear of being identified. The Cathall thugs even boasted about their criminal exploits on YouTube. Brazen? Stupid? Evil? Take your pick.

Yenga's tormentors chased him along a street, shouting "Catch him! Kill him!" It was eerily redolent of Lord of the Flies, as if a scene from William Golding's sinister masterpiece had been transported to W6.

In the novel, a group of schoolboys, stranded on an island, descend into savagery. They whip themselves into a frenzy, chanting, "Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!" Then they rip to pieces one of their own, Simon.

The theme, Golding wrote, is about "the darkness of man's heart". His plot has become a tale of our times. From the fiction of 1954, to the facts of 2008.

Crimes of serious violence are rising in Britain. This is not the creation of a fevered press, anxious to produce eye-catching headlines, as some ministers claim.

The Government can spin the numbers hither and thither, but the brutal reality is that knife and gun attacks are becoming an everyday occurrence. Of the 200,000 violent offences in London last year, 3,459 involved firearms.

Statistics issued by the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London show that street robberies in which a knife was used jumped sharply between 2004 and 2007. Deaths linked to knife crime rose by 18 per cent last year, from 219 to 258. The victims are more likely to be young people, those living in poor areas and ethnic communities.

Enver Solomon, the centre's deputy director, said: "The average age of male homicide victims in the Metropolitan Police area is definitely declining."

A BBC London poll of 500 youths, aged 13 to 18, across five boroughs, Brent, Croydon, Hackney, Lambeth and Southwark, revealed that one third knew someone who had been the victim of a knife assault and 17 per cent knew a victim of gun crime. Three-quarters of those questioned expected violent crime to go up again this year.

From the curse of coarse behaviour and the blight of litter to casual violence and extreme physical abuse, there is a pervasive nastiness rotting away at this country's foundations. Some urban areas feel wholly dysfunctional.

Apologists are quick to blame deprivation. If only it were that simple. Quite a few of England's worst football hooligans are earning fortunes in the City. Their poverty is not financial; it's a complete absence of worthwhile values - a collapse of decency.

Britain's Chief Rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks, sums up the anxieties of many: "We are living through the death of civility … Today, it is commonplace to encounter road rage, muggings, street crime, drunkenness, lager louts, hoodies, yobbishness and laddishness. Teachers are attacked in the classroom. Nurses encounter violence from patients."

The death of civility? I'm afraid so. The liberal revolution of the Sixties, which separated morality from law, is leading us, says Sacks, to "a new form of barbarism". The view that "it's legal, so I can do it" is destroying the fabric of social harmony. Manners are disappearing, along with courtesy and shame.

The story of Shannon Matthews' abduction tells us much about the state we are in. Mercifully, the girl was rescued and taken into care. But the details of her mother's breeding with a multiplicity of partners defies rational analysis.

Karen Matthews has seven children from five fathers, an extreme example of what author Tony Parsons called "the blended family", a toxic mixture for many of the unfortunate offspring who are trapped in the middle.

The breakdown of the traditional family was likened last Saturday by a High Court judge, Mr Justice Coleridge, to an out-of-control cancerous body, posing more of a threat to our futures than global warming.

The family courts, he said, are witnessing "a never-ending carnival of human misery". So, too, are hospitals and clinics, as the number of abortions in Britain continues to rise.

When young hoodlums are prepared to hack someone to death in broad daylight, I suppose we should not be surprised that their teenage girlfriends switch off unborn life without remorse. I spoke to a leading female academic who said "more education" was needed to ease the problem. She was, I'm afraid, making excuses for many who are comfortable with abortion as a form of contraception.

About 200,000 terminations take place in England and Wales every year. The numbers have been rising steadily for a long time. Are we saying that the availability of information about safe sex and reproduction is diminishing? Hardly. What's missing is a code of ethics.

While Court of Appeal judges fret over the human rights of terrorist suspects, blocking their extradition in case they don't get a fair trial, British law is happy to approve the extermination of unwanted foetuses at 24 weeks.

The state protects Abu Qatada, but not semi-formed babies. Their lives are no longer precious, not even cheap. They are deemed to be worthless.

When our legal system loses its moral compass, it is only to be expected that on the mean streets of Britain many impressionable children will do the same.

*************************************

Nevermind - lets make light of it all - disassociate ourselves from any and all responsibilty and make a cult game about it.

Two sides of the same coin. Capitalism is war.

When is the last time you got "wasted" by a cop, and woke up a few hours later short a hundred bucks and all your weapons? What the hell city do you live in?

Too bad nobody has a sense of humor anymore.

Why should developers who develop a game for adults, which is clearly labeled as such, and named after a FELONY, have any responsibility over what parents allow their children to do? Parents should be held accountable! It's not like RockStar is trying to dupe all these poor innocent parents into buying the game for their kids. It's called GRAND THEFT AUTO for crying out loud, not Barbie Horse Adventures.

The problem is there is too much stupidity in this world. I'm not saying there should be a law against it or anything, but why not just take the warning labels off everything, and let natural selection take care of the rest?

So you think anyone who wants to experiment with the criminal life style, should jest run up and join a street gang?

Feminism. It's certainly not because girls suddenly got interested in GTA. If it is, I was definitely born in the wrong decade.

with regards to the asbo nation
if you cannot be arrested or charged for ANY crime because you are too young in the eyes of the court then you are eventually going to feel untouchable

many years ago i thought the best option was to say

"ok you did this crime and that has a minimum term of x with no parole as due to your age you are serving parole now, on you 18th birthday we will come and lock you away for that term before you even get to blow the candles out."

"ah i see youve committed another arrestable act that will be liable for jail term, guess what its going ontop of your current unserved time."

so the more crime you do the longer you get
x months here and their mounts up to a couple of years

but just imagine as some of these crimes are murder
you could go into jail on your 18th and not leave till your 30's or later with no chance of parole as you were using that up in your under 18 years

the old addage of do the crime serve the time needs sharper teeth when police officers darent try anything incase they themselves get arrested for assauling a minor

Regardless of whether a game is for adults or pixies - the fact that such a simulation of shameless evil is even desired registers more alarm for me. How can you even like to do these things in any form of pretense? As the shock and giggles subside, dysfunctional 'Adults' will require even more perversity.

It's a one way street, and one descending very steeply into what some of us yet recognise as horror. 'Adults' filling empty lives with games is a sorely embarrassing state of affairs. Mere appendages to a huge machine over which we have no control - 'Adults' are simply passing from the cradle to the grave with not a jot of conscience for the future they've contributed nothng to. In short, we've been socially engineered, made docile and neutered - all in the space of 50 years or so. Look at the heros and great men from the past - today they would be terrorists or insurgents or religious fanatics, or some other clap-trap, but I tell you this: if a handful of the founding fathers were alive today you can bet after they had seen the plight of common people, pulled and pushed this way and that by the scum who class themselves as our betters they would tool up and take out the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, and Parliament and all the rest of the rat's nests that dot this planet - or die trying. I'd bet my life on it.

Some will say 'Oh the irony!' - advocating violence at the same time condemning it! I agree, a shame mere words and petitions will not change a single thing. Our keepers will not relinquish their grip on us - EVER! As society descends, they will consolidate their control with even more extreme tyranny. Pointless violence, selfishness, amorality etc. simply keeps most of us swatting at each other like pesky mosquitoes and prevents us focusing on the bigger picture - the problem of our Parasites.

GTA is simply one of many boils on an already festering state of affairs.

It's a game and it's fake, stop being so dramatic!

if all the global energy used against gta was leveled at making sure criminals served real time and not some namby pampy you could go to jail longer for tax evasion fiasco we live in now THEN the world might be a better place

you're a child and you killed another child but cos you're a child you can go free
what next a scouts badge of merrit?

It isn't drama - it's real. It's hard to criticize GTA without going beyond because the buck doesn't just stop at rockstar's doorstep.

Maybe I've been watching too many Japanese movies lately but I reckon that we should establish a modified "Battle Royale" act here in England.

Each year we should:

a) Randomely pick a group of, say, fourty filthy chavs and chavettes from amongst the most scummy council estates in the country.

b) Drug them - or wait for them to pass out "down the park" or amongst the bins "down the shops" after drinking too much cheap and nasty booze.

c) Ship them off to a deserted island somewhere.

s) Equip them with weapons.

e) Tell them that if more than one survives after three days, we'll detonate the bomb-rigged chunky "gold-ish" Argos necklaces, sovereign rings, and tacky bangle earrings that we fitted them with whilst they slept.

And we should televise the whole thing. I'd watch it. I'd buy the DVD box sets too.

id let children watch that
"this is what happens to you if you dont behave, now f**k off and do your home work"

crime needs a real deterant and if part of your social standing revolves around crime then thats not much of a deterant its a badge of honor doing time (although im sure they'd prefer not to get caught)

@Hujiklo, to quote you :







Man, i think your view of things is a very pessimistic one. You seem to see the devil everywhere. You are also being condescendent.

totally agree.

you can start with lesser crimes. Enforced comunity service cleaning up city parks and roads, grafitti etc for vandalism.

It might be cool to act tough, but not if you have to be seen in public dressed in silly clothes and cleaning up after yourself and your buddys mess.

We had something like this the year after they got rid of corpral punishment at my middle school. Picking up litter in the playgrounds and playing fields at lunchtime.

Punishment should start with lesser crime and catch likely offenders before they migrate to more serious problems. It would have to be enforced and extended if they don't make an effort to take part. Waste more of their time if they waste the programs.

Teaching kids good manners, self disciplin and respect should begin with the parents at home. But these days many adult parents werent brought up properly to begin with and are not responsible enough to have kids in the first place.

Let alone the teenage parents in the UK that have kids in order that they become entitles to free housing, bills, and allowance to bring up their kids. In poor inner cities many girls choose to have kids because they see it as an easy way out of leaving school and struggling on their own to get a job. Just live on welfare.

In England, every mother gets $1200 a month for 6 months for each child they produce. This is supposed to enable the mother to take time off work for the first few months and look after their child. But you can see how easily that can be used for other purposes.

this might seem like an OT ramble but hear me out

a guy at work has a sporty looking car (dont know what make) in a vile colour ... so vile i dont want to look at the car for fear of wanting to gouge my eyes out
was talking about it to another guy and he says that car colour affects your insurance and that vile colour is probably cheaper to insure than if it was ferrari red british racing green or black

apparantly those colours get stolen more and white and that vile abomination of CMYK rarely do

i told him that when i first lived in cambridge in the early to late 80's all students had pink bikes rented per term from the colleges
now i dont know about you but i wouldnt steal a pink bike even if it was unlocked in an abandoned CCTV less street
cos unless i was going to spraypaint it right there and then i wouldnt be seen dead in town riding it (and if i was a student i think id buy a bike instead too)

...

point?

back to the yob litter brigade
iir we trialed this in the UK ... bright orange boiler suits reminicent of the states prison gear seen in movies
im not sure if this (although humerous to joe public) would be seen as a deterant or a badge to the offenders

but i doubt we could get away with shaving heads sticking em in stocks and tattoing obscenities on their scalps (pitty its one of the things from the dark ages id like to see come back)

If there were no other bikes around but pink ones you would have no choice but to steal the pink one(s) (if you were going to steal a bike, that is).

If everyone went with the trend things would still be stolen!

if it had barbie written on the frame and her face on the handle bars?
;)

Interesting that there have been two sieges involving firearms in and around london today. Doesn't happen all that often and probably just coincidence.

Would be interesting to see if there was any noteable rise in violent crime within the same week of GTA's launch though. This kind of thing is normaly extremely rare.

Probably some fighting about the last copies of GTA IV :-)

Neji - I suppose you'd say it's pessimistic, but then I'm no longer one for sugary pep pils and the like. To some degree the sickening violent things I've seen with my own eyes, and even worse things I wish I'd never seen..or sad to say experienced first hand confirm my outlook.
I used to be like you when I was younger, but now I finally have a handle on things, and some real gritty experience to boot - I wish I could go back and punch myself for being just another laid-back, arrogant dummy with too much undeserved confidence.

It's weird how a game can provoke such a reaction in me, but then I've been in the games business for 15 or more years now, and as much as I wish I'd never started down this embarrassing path, I'm here, and so it is quite a big deal for me when I see this sort of trash hand-in-glove with everything else that's deteriorating nowadays, and then see how people defend and make excuses for it. But enough - I'm tired myself.

You'll be surprised to see how little that actually goes. Most peoples jobs don't pay enough as it is, and this mear £700 odd pounds, to cover several months, just doesn't even stretch one month. Most average people (and i don't mean london average) struggle at the best of times.

Not having a go at you, just thought i'd expand on that point ;o)

Oh, and you hear people getting shot in london all the time. And it's mostly the deprived, and black children that are involved. It's not racist, it's true. Look at the statistics on crime in london. It's all down to deprivity mostly.

Violent youth crime up a third

Robberies committed by 10 - 17 year olds up 43% over 3 years. Total youth offences up 21% in the same period.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576076/Violent-youth-crime-up-a-third.html



This age group is likely to be let off with lenient sentencing being classed as juvenile Delinquents.

Another big problem. The justice system seems to want NOT to punish these people too much, because when they get out, they are no better. Mainly because prison is a breeze over here. (a guy sued because he fell off the roof whilst escaping. Can you believe that? He said there should have been barriers up there)

So they give them a couple of years.

If, in prison, everytime you dropped the soap, a big hairy, scary man, did you know what to you, you'd soon mind about going back there. A guy in work told me once of the boarding schools type punishment places they sent persisant offenders too. Doesn't sound a place you'd want to end up.

Again, your not allowed to do these kinds of things to people, because of their right (which they should FORFEIT if they break the law and commit a serious enough crime)

Hujiklo, it is sad to know that you have been going through what you describe and that it makes you feel the way you are now. Seeing real life atrocities, how traumatic it might be is not an excuse for being so cynical. I'm pretty sure some people have seen or endured worst situations than you and are even still bearing a heavy handicap from it while nonetheless doing everything they can to look at the bright side of things.
You seem to be quick on making assumptions about someone else. I have been working in the educational field for several years now and i am certainly not a kid doing pills.

Sure doomsayers like you have always been of a great help to prevent humanity from going wrong.
GTA is just a game, nothing serious, it is not real and it doesn't make criminals more than any other depraved form of entertainment like you can find in literature or music. You may not like it, neither i do but this is not a reason for condemning it and wanting it to be censored and exposed as being the culprit for the fall of mankind.

Education from the parents is really essential to address such issues as the rise of juvenile delinquency. The problem is to be tackled at the root rather than trying to enforce more repression on young people. Most are just being what someone young is supposed to be that is to say immature, irresponsible and trying to find their way growing up in a society they do know yet all the whereabouts.

Accepting the reality of what our eyes and senses tell us isn't doomsaying - nor is using common-sense to use what we know and see to predict the future state of affairs, whether it be the balkanization of the UK and US, or the soaring trends of pointless violence, or the obsession with permitting all kind of deviancy under the banner of so called 'tolerance' etc.

It's no good trying to patch things up with stiffer sentences or throwing money at deprived areas either - it's like sticking plasters on a leper.

You talk about getting to the root - engineered people today no longer have the stomach for the medicine required, hense all the vigorous denial and apologetics. Also, I cannot be certain, but I bet most apologists are far removed from the troubles afflicting people in the prole quarters, just like the pro multi-culturists with their ivory towers well away from the enrichment of disease and crime or the wonderful, vibrant, vibrations of our reverse-missionaries detonating themselves for the sheer joy of integrating. How can we not be thankful?

It's got to be in the water or something - maybe it's flouride? It makes me wonder. Something is clouding people's perceptions.

I'd say, take some time out and discover who makes our worthless paper money. Follow that trail to its end, and if that doesn't snap you out of your hypnosis then nothing but getting caught in the crossfire of a gang-land Ballistics Appreciation Society get-together will do the trick. But by then I hope it's not too late.

Well they are, so that sounds perfectly reasonable. They're also not very likely to have played a game rated unsuitable for people under the age of 18 by responsible parents.

Well I've never known anyone to come back from prison a better man. Only more determined not to go back (that is willing to go further not to get caught).

Ever tried it? How do you know? Would you rather have we brought back concentration camps and gulags? Do you think those made better people? Maybe you should ask someone who went. Sure to the crazy violent sociopath with nothing to lose, prison might be a breeze, or even a preferred environment - but most people value their freedom.

When?

No you can't. And you're wrong. The fact of the matter is that juvenile delinquency is primarily caused by parental abuse - not video games. You want to blame DOOM for Eric Harris being all fucked up fine - I'm sure the fact that his father, a retired officer from the USAF who thought it was responsible behavior to instruct his son in the construction of improvised explosives, had nothing to do with the kid being all fucked up.

Maybe it's because nobody cares what happens to kids like that? Their parents obviously don't care, why should you? Why should I? Maybe you should ask someone like Andrew Vachss what he thinks? Maybe you don't have to, maybe all you have to do is read some of his books?

People here are suggesting they get thrown in concentration camps or sent off to murder each other on a deserted island. You're part of the problem - not part of the solution.

You criticise people for being engineered, Hujiklo and yet you want people to conform to your own ethical/moral values. You're really upset because people haven't been engineered to your liking.

I think; therefore I exist. That's what existentialists would argue. In other words, reality is what I perceive it to be. Other people's perceptions aren't "clouded" if their values differ from yours. I agree that we should all accept the reality of what our eyes and senses tell us but the problem is that what they reveal are experiences and "truths" that are unique to each individual.

No, Hujiklo, what you want people to do is accept the reality of what your eyes and senses tell you, right?

I've travelled around a bit. I've seen third world poverty. I've lived amongst it. I've seen brutality. I've seen people dying in the street, Hujiklo, watched by apathetic crowds. I've seen police beating on an elderly women. So get off your high horse. Just because people fail to share your points of view does not mean that th rest of us have lived all our lives in Disneyland.

Flameduck wrote:


Well, my solution wasn't a serious one, Flameduck. In truth, I don't believe that there is a solution because the problem resides within human nature. It seems to me that most of the problems in this world are a result of individual existential inauthenticity and what Satre termed "bad faith".

I'm sorry. I wasn't suggesting it was. However the fact that people like Joe Arpaio even exist is a pretty clear indication that someone would at least give it serious consideration.

Well I'm more of a John Stuart Mill type person, but I can see your point.

The 3rd world is a completely different problem.

And everybody would prefer their world view reign supreme if they'd be honest. I recognise these things you obviously don't yet.

We inheritted a civilization off the back and blood of our forefathers. We had it all given to us on a plate - things were actually looking up only 50 years ago. We took it all for granted and now don't know the way out. You can blurt your existentialist banalities as much as you like, but when you get hungry you'll eat and when you take a head-but to the nose you'll hurt big time - that's my reality. The real reality that doesn't need peeling away to infinity because it does fine as it is.

If I hadn't had eyes in the back of my head all my life I probably wouldn't be here now. My perceptions took a while to develop and don't make me feel comfortable or 'high' in the least. I can smell trouble a mile away - it's my gift if you like. I didn't have to learn it on some poncy touch-feely course in sensitivity. But - yeh, there are plenty of people who have seen way worse or grown up in more fearful conditions but so what? I hope they're okay.

Society isn't a toy - it's a humungous leviathan that is very hard to steer correctly, which is why extreme caution is much better than 'anything-goes' liberal nihilism any day of the week...and the rewards of which we're gratefully degenerating into with each passing year.

So you've travelled and you've live amongst poverty - well done! Some people live in poverty, I'd listen to their 'perceptions' of it, and 'reality' over a traveller who once glided over their plight.

Keep blaming the parents Flameduck - which generation do we start from? This lost generation of wraiths are also parents, if you can even call them that now. Somebody, somewhere set this unholy mess up and it wasn't a secret league of parents. Parents actually have no clout what so ever today. You can't expect the majority of the TV generation to assume responsibilty when they have never even heard of the concept.

What? World War 2, The Korean War and Vietnam was "looking up"? Does looking up mean something different where you're from?

Six days ago. Except there were 5 of them.

Never. They might not fear the law, but they definitely fear me.

First weekend of December 2007. Don't recall whether it was Friday or Saturday night.

I have my own car, so I drive where I please.

You'd lose.

They aren't. Not even close. And if you were honest, you'd admit that you couldn't care less. They're a disease right? The public just doesn't have the guts to "cure" them. Remember?

Yeah. I know. I call them friends. You call them criminals. More than half of everyone I went to school with is either dead, in jail or serving in the military. Don't even think to assume you know the first thing about who I am, or were I'm from because I have the nerve to disagree with you on the Internet. We can measure dicks and compare scars all day, but what it boils down to, is that your typical gangsters, are not the ones in line to buy GTA IV, much like your typical accountant isn't first in line to buy "Microsoft Tax Return Simulator 2008" and why Michael Jackson probably doesn't watch American Idle.

I wont be coming home tonight / My generation will put it right / Were not just making promises / That we know, well never keep.

I'm starting with the man in the mirror / I'm asking him to change his ways / And no message could have been any clearer / If you wanna make the world a better place / Take a look at yourself and then make a change.

Take your pick, but leave my video games alone.

I'm curious to see how old everyone is, I really don't think many people here have lived long enough to have seen the changes of the past 2-3 decades and in some ways have become a part of the problem.

It was irony.

Those in favor of the banning of GTA should take a further look at some of the countries were the governments
exercise all kinds of coercive measures to shut down what they perceive as dangerous
for the public benevolence. China, Russia, Afghanistan, ... the list goes on.
I guess they are not living in such places otherwise they wouldn't be so inclined to muzzle
creative entertainment like video games.

Where do you draw the line when you begin to enforce censorship ?

Ok, being a cop, I have learned many things. For one, people will blame anything, anyone, for any reason. Remember that. If something can get ya outa trouble, they will do it.

Something I also learned(in school) is how crimes change. Lets take for example, caveman days. Back then, their was only so much trouble to get your self into. So lets just say, stealing a rock was BIG. Dont touch a rock of a certain size, etc. This was their law. You break it, you go to...caveman jail LOL.

To us, it sounds pretty retarded. To get arrested for stealing OOga OOgas rock. But if they were to look at, lets say Atari, they would think all that will do is destroy minds. It will make killers out of ya. And guess what....it didnt happen, did it.

Taking off yourshirt (men) in public, was also a no-no. Now look at us. Crime, and people, overtime, evolve. Not just physically, but mentaly as well. In 100 years, they will look at video games and laugh. How can something on TV influence them? What was the matter with them?

In the future, they will have their crimes, that may be beyond our imagination. So to blame a videogame, is an excuse. I dont buy it. I used to play "Army" games as a kid. Always had a gun. But I didnt turn out to be a crazy guy with a gun killing people. I have a mind of my own. I knew the difference. Now I do what I do, cause I never let things influence me.

Its really on the person themselves. If someone is going to be brought into this world, going to be a killer etc, then they are going to do it, no matter what game they play. to blame video games is just a reason and an excuse.

Germany.

The most significant change between now and then is not more violence in the media. It's the eagerness with which otherwise intelligent people willingly surrender their civil rights and embrace censorship and conformity.

I'm 31.

This discussion could go on forever. and a game development forum isn't the best place to fight the problem. Plus we're not supposed to discuss politics which is a difficult thing to avoid given the circumstances.

I think I might start taking a more active part in confronting these issues where those actions can make some difference.

Is there anywhere sensible anyone knows of. And please don't mention that moron Jack Thompson. You need to pick your battles, not attack an entire industry. I really don't have a problem with 99% of violent games out there.

It's interesting to see you call someone a moron, who believes the exact same thing you do. Jack Thompson does not attack the entire industry, nor does he have a problem with violent video games that support his political agenda (most notably Americas Army). In fact with the exception of his short-lived war on "The Sims", he seems to be exclusively attacking Rockstar games published by Take Two (namely GTA, Manhunt and Bully).

Ok moron wasn't the best choice of words. I know a little about Jack Thompson as my wife worked for the Governors Office of criminal justice planning here in California. She was asking me for advice as a game developer to put forward to Senator Lelland Yee who she was also interviewing with for a job. Yee and Thompson were discussing some legislature in the run up to the release of vice city.

Jack Thompson is way OTT and no one will ever take him seriously.

Oddly my wife probably knows more about all this than I do.