Controllers...

Is it unreasonable to demand a user has a controller with 2 analogue sticks?

I think it probably is... But I'm thinking of doing it anyway!

So if you could give me a rough level of how annoying it would be on a scale of 0-10...

0 = I don't care, I've got a controller with 2 analogue sticks so ner
..
..
5 = OK, I've got one, but I really think you should support keyboard / mouse too
..
..
..
10 = What?! Are you insane? Controllers are evil and kill children how dare you use such a satanic input control

8

6 - I've got a PS2 pad with PC adaptor, so I could play it. But you should always allow for keyboard/mouse combo's on PC games.

I've got 4 USB controllers with dual sticks in addition to 2 old style XBOX controllers. Good for gauntlet style multiplayer games.

10 ...I wouldn't even think of buying it.

3

Until very recently, i would have said, 5, but now, its more like.. uh... 10.

You cannot play PC games properly with a controler, not usually. FPS games are usually dumbed down on consoles to take up for the lack of control given by the mouse.

The ONE thing I dislike about using the keyboard is the 3-4 button max limit, IE Playing half-Life 2, using control, walking and jumping at the same time causes a clash and i cannot jump or walk forward.

This has me thinking.

On a console this would be no problem, on a PC I think your really reaching, not many people will buy a 2nd joystick to play your game and relatively few people have gamepads.

So I'd say 9.

Darkheart

This is interesting actually.

It's not an FPS, it's a flying game, and I'm shooting for an 'interesting' flight model rather than traditional, hence the need for 2 analogue controllers. Likewise a need for trigger buttons also.

I think a keyboard / mouse combo would be shocking...

Anyway, I'll press on with my experiment and see what you guys think! it might turn out to be an unholy pile of poo and not worth pursuing anyway!

10 - If I can't play it with a mouse then I'm not playing it. Sad but true.

I used to play flight sims entirely on keyboard. Obviously the controls are a little jumpy but it worked.

1 - I've got a controller with 2 analogue sticks so ner

0 - I use my ps2 pads for everything.

The thing is, if the control system is best suited on a dual stick I say go for it. It's a pain in the arse implementing all the other keyboard , joypad , mouse combinations to cater for those who still live in the dark ages. I'm not planning on supporting anything other than dual stick only or keyboard only in my current project.

Providing you support just about every possible dual pad I don't think it's such a big deal but others clearly do.

0 - if it's a good game, I'll sort out a twin analogue stick joypad to play it with.

unless it is a game I want real bad, about 9.

I think a lot of PC users in the US also have 360's or at least 360 controllers. Especially gamers. I posted our old fun racer demo on the local game dev meetup forum and everyone (11 people) was able to play it on their system with the 360 controller they had either bought or borrowed from their console.

It's a straight plug and play, and is probably the nicest gamepad with dual analogue on the market anyway. Plus most console ports have built in support for the 360 gamepad which often works just like the 360 version. Even pop up custom 360 controller UI elements if its plugged in like a image of the red B gamepad button to go back in the menu and green A to select.

Gears of war, assasins creed plus some others I tried work with 360 game UI if you use the 360 controller.

1 not fussed at all

since the 360 pad is usb i got one to try out as i got used to the classic S type which i still prefer to the 360
i dont mind fps on both thumb sticks as i stopped playing (save for the really old unreal tournament) fps on the pc and had a few on the xbox

fps wise as a personal choice id rather have the pad than kb mouse as id have to have a table near by to get the mouse on as i can type with the thing on my lap but have to reach down for the mouse

your flight options make me think of the RC boxes for hobby kit pilots

and games like geometry wars with the keyboard ???

ps can you get all buttons in blitz? i think i didnt get a few registers when i tried the joystick demo code

but on the other hand some games on the consoles NEED kb mouse cos the pad is just too slow
you wouldnt use paintbrush with a joy pad would you

On a scale of 0-10? 11.

Hardly anybody will have a dual analog controller for PC (the people here are all geeks and not a fair representation of Joe Public).

From memory, you're going to have problems mapping the controls for the second analog stick since I recall that they vary from one controller to the next.

To summarise, no its not unreasonable to demand it but if you want more than a handful of people to be able to play whatever game it is you're making, you must at least offer an alternative control method that's useful to the masses.

8 - I love My PS2 joypads and my XBox360 joypads, and I have PC hookups for both, but I can't be bothered to plug them in and use up USB sockets I could be using for external drives, headphones, my PSP, flash drives, etc. Besides, I hate cluttering up the place with extra leads.

So I wouldn't be able to play it.

my mobile modem uses the front 2 usb ports for power ... found it very intermittent with just the one when i first got it (mind you that might have been due to the sim moving cos ive had to blu tac it down since)

so i do time share an extention lead from the back for every other bloody device ... must get a usb card (not hub) and my external hd shares its type b cable with my printer (when i can be bothered using it)

Shouldn't you allow for other control systems as well:
mouse, keyboard, wiimote, trackpad, pen tablet?

There is a solution to almost all possible pad configs in the archives so this isn't an issue.


Alot of PC owners will also have a last gen or current gen console and therefore a couple of dual stick pads. IMO, if you're used to using a dual stick for a racer or fps then playing with keys and mouse is a complete chore.



Speak for yourself.

27 on a scale of 0-10.

joysticks and the hand-held controllers are pretty much unusable to me, and while I do own an old one I haven't hooked it up for years. I won't even consider playing a game that doens't support mouse/keyboard.

Nothing quite like trying something new and thinking outside the box is there!!

Not if they're the wrong tool for the job, no.

What I'm writing is a flying machine that has 2 independent directional thrusters, these are controllable with the 2 sticks, so you push one forward and one back and you'll rotate on the spot, etc... A bit like a tank, but with more options!

The trigger buttons give the appropriate thruster an extra boost.

Yeah I could convert this to a mouse / keyboard route but it would be so mind blowingly pedestrian and generic it would be utterly pointless! The idea is that it's going to be tricky, interesting and fun to fly this thing!

Maybe you should write it for the iPhone and use the builtin tilt facility.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/28/iphones-tilt-sensor-hacked/

It would require 2 iPhones as it needs 2 tilt facilities! And I'm not daft enough to buy 1 iphone let alone 2!

2... I've a dual stick usb control pad, quite a bit PS2 esque, and personally using a second stick for acceleration feels more natural than just depressing a button.

Trust me this scheme will all make sense in a few days with a tech demo thingy jobby wobbly thing.

Of course all those nay sayers will just have to peer over the fence say "Hmmmm"

As I said it's just an experiment, probably won't ever be a game, but hey!

It won't to me, cos I lost my Dualshock USB adapter :/

You're going to be pining with indifference Dave!

Another 10 I'm afraid. I don't own any kind of gamepad for my PC and I'm not likely to buy one unless lots of games start requiring it.

You know... I find it hard to believe how many people will happily spend 200 on a graphics card but not less than 10 on a controller!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saitek-105782-P380-Gamepad-PC/dp/B000ISTYAG/ref=sr_1_71?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1207833674&sr=1-71

It's more about not wanting another piece of crap cluttering up the place tbh

12 if you develop for PC
1 if you use XNA to develop for XBLA

:P

[You know... I find it hard to believe how many people will happily spend 200 on a graphics card but not less than 10 on a controller!]

> I don't undestand it too :(

I have an adapter that allows me to use my 360 controllers on my PC, so it would be fine for me.

I think a lot of the non-console owners don't see the usefulness of it. You can't really do the two analogue stick thing with the mouse and keyboard.

If making a game like that you should go ahead and allow mouse and keyboard, but a person playing like that would just be gimped compared to if they had a two stick controller. Using an 8-way directional keypad sort of thing rather than an anyway stick for one of the controls.

For me 0, i have usb ps2 style pads i got for my game and pro evolution soccer.

Logitech dual action game pad, has to be the best Ps2 rip off. there is a problem with ps2 adaptors as there is a very small delay with buttons, you can only pick it up in pro evo really, its a really small delay but, if you try a usb pad agains a ps2 pad though an adaptor you can see the difference when reaction times are vital.

alot of games now even have the xbox 360 pads on option screens in pc titles. although this is mainly down to them being ported games.

i think even if the game doesnt play well without a controller you should have the option or come up with a method they can use thats almost as good.

I just found a ps2 style USB pad in my "box of tricks". Don't know when I bought that, or what for!

Controllers need to be standardized on PC... Every controller I've tried nearly always gives a different response when pressing a button.

As an example, if you press A on sidewinder, the default drivers may return the numerical value 2, on another controller, press A and the drivers return a string character (Which I presume is a keyboard event), or a wildly different numeric one.

In this sense, setting them up is always a pain in the arse and I tend to chuck the controller to one side and use keyboard and/or mouse instead.

So for me, I'll give it a 5

thats why the 360 controller is quite nice. Support for it is standard in XP and Vista. Just plug and play and a lot of people have them.

0 - PC owners need to get their shit together.

Anyone who doesn't already have a proper controller, is not going to enjoy the kind of game you're making anyway, certainly not with such anachronistic input devices as a mouse and keyboard.

Knock yourself out! For every copy you don't sell because some aging hippie doesn't "groove" with them fancy input devices, invented in the mid-70's - I'll buy 2, just to piss them off!

as game makers id have thought you would have got a few pads to see whats what cos although you may not want to play ANY game on a pad your customers might
[specially seeing as you sometimes have 2/3 systems or dual booting OS's for testing
"i bought an intel mac for testing my bmax game now im too skint to get a 360 pad"]



360 is usb by default no adapter needed ... it just needs software that supports ALL buttons and sticks
although i love the classic S more than the 360/games for windows one

Just getting the flight model working!

Nice models :)

3D Desert strike Remake? wink

I have two, and it was testing these too with BlitzMax that I realised how crappy controllers are on a PC... Which brought me to do this:-

http://www.syntaxbomb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1595

Which is still not complete (Though, I've unplugged it from the GUI), and it does the job! ;)

@Rob - Very nice... you got a texture for that yet?

is this based on a real air craft or just a work of fiction
cos i remember some R&D jets having 3D engines as well as VTOL

also cosider this:
if you went to the arcades to play gran turismo youd expect to see a steering wheel and gas pedal not a joystick
motorbike handles for motorbike games
light guns
etc

why are YOU so hung up on wsad + mouse ... yes some games suck on a joypad/stick even on the st/amiga (i remember 2 player bloodwych being 2 joysticks which was a nightmare to play id rather have had the one mouse controlling both parties as i was playing it by myself as my brother got lost in 3d mazes)

Nope, probably not going to be the final model anyway, just knocked that one together in an hour or so. To give me something to play with.

It's based on a helicopter with the rotors chopped off and big fan things bolted to the side instead. So fiction!

well after seeing some experimental jets and cars over the years who could tell ;)

deffo make it 360 joypad native and then tweak any others that dont quite fit
cos (dunno bout wireless) any 360 owner* can try it out with little fuss hint hint

*perhaps i should buy a 360 to use my pad on :))

Needs a bit of tweaking yet as it's a complete bitch to fly at the moment!

And I can't do any more work on it tonight as I'm getting the upstairs of my house re-carpeted tomorrow and I've got to empty all the rooms and my computer room is the last one I'm yet to dismantle everything, take it downstairs and rip the old carpet up!

just realised where i thought id seen that from
one of the HK's from the terminator flash backs (although its WAY different)

Reminds me of the ORCA unit from the original Command & Conquer.

At any rate, even if it is fiction, wouldn't the fans have to be a little larger to propel enough air to lift the body?


You need a USB dongle if you got any of the wireless 360 devices, as not everyone chose to go with the USB-wired controllers.

Anyways, regarding controller support, I'd just implement a full blown controller editor so you can just assign whatever button/axis to whatever the heck you want, that way everyone is covered.
(as well as sliders for the acceleration rate if one chooses to use a digital button/key)

true i forgot most xboxes ship wireless
i got a wired one by itself but it means i would have a spare controller should i get a 360

looks abit like a compact next gen osprey. That dodgy US army helicopter/airplane hybrid.

That is a Marine VTOL, not Army.

its way sexier than a chinnock (sp) that my dad rechristened kinnock (as in neil the mp) as it was just as ugly

tried the tech demo i can see it working more than i can see it failing
it just takes an open mind to try these things
and it got me a new sig out of it

so come on you coders implement joypad support
even if you dont like using em I DO !!!

edit:
would you play robotron/smash tv with cursor and wsad?
keyboards fine for most things but i cant see it working for this

bringing this back up for one or two points

1 check out the tech demo if you have a 360 pad or similar
im liking it (save for my issues with the camera)

you only need your 2 thumbs if your pad supports buttons under the thumbsticks compared to the possible implementation of wsad space and cursor num0



2 those of you who stated you were anti joypads does that mean no joypad support for customers that WANT to use em?

i know some games arnt for joypads (or keyboards for that matter)
you COULD play a match 3 game with cursor or joypad but it feels nicer with a mouse

but as seen on consoles you can nay HAVE to play games like tetris on the pad it doesnt seem like sacralage to me to offer such an option to a normally keyboard game
as stated up there a while back a usb games for windows pad is only £25 or there abouts and as alot of you are willing to spend god knows what on a new gfx card it seems cheap as chips in comparison (if only for testing purposes)

eg the match 3 game method
if it was a fixed grid movement and not glide ala mouse you could go 5 steps left in 5 clicks of the left key or stick

some games like my beloved deflektor would have been better as mouse but as it started out on the mouseless spectrum by the time it got to the st and amiga the controll method was stick-grid movement and joy button left/right to rotate mirror
now with a mouse it would be easy to go from one end of the level to another in a simple stroke compared to however clicks needed and you could rmb / lmb the mirrors

edit:
i could post about all the good and bad implementations of ANY controll method of games (that i can remember) some may be just because they came out when we didnt have mice or more than one button
but i think it would be more of a rant or monologue of royal institute christmas lectures magnitude

but i will say this
some games just played better on the snes than the megadrive due to the controller 3 buttons compared to 6 on a well thought out system

the ipod solitair WTF with the spinner ???
the 360 breakout however works wonders on the spinner

360 pad:
2 player pong one on each thumb stick
either just up and down or recreate the old spin fealing with a more circular movement

could you really enjoy gridwars on keyboard?

Arcades:
some cabs had their own way of doing things from steering whells and handle bars to ride on mini bikes
wouldnt they all just suck if they only gave you joystick controlls?

mame cabinates
once youve installed the front end of your nice showpice arcade cabinate at home the last thing you want is to be reminded its only a pc after all by having to get the keyboard and or mouse out each time you wanted to select a new game
so you choose a front end that suits the xfire or whatever stick you have installed
and if it is devoid of a trackball then a joystick navigation screen is a must

It all depends on the game itself which controller is best...

I use :
- Keyboard and Mouse for First Person shooters, Strategy games and MMORPG's
- Gamepads for Emulators and Arcade style games
- Racing wheel for the more realistic driving games

I don't like to play First Person Shooters on consoles because it's a lot slower than the PC versions, aiming is a lot faster with the mouse :-) (HEADSHOT!!!)

So if a game only can be played well with a dual analog sticks, so be it. Just don't forget to mention it when selling the game.

I'm a fan of dual analog gamepads but I think that it would be commercial suicide to require players to use one.

You could sell your game with the needed controller.

Look at Guitar Hero for example, or Dance Dance Revolution, or even Playstations Eye Toy... Want to be able to play those games with keyboard and mouse as well if available on PC?

I think the 360 controller is more common than some people think. If you list compatibility with the 360 controller as a feature people who arent aware that it just plugs into a PC and works are more likely to figure it out.

I'm with Evak, support for the 360 pad is brilliant. Slap a "Games for Windows" logo on it and be done with it.

I go with zero, i have an x360 controller.

aye i was thinking bout the guitar hero controller afaik you can play it with the ps2 pad but it jsut doesnt feel right

i myself wouldnt make anything joystick exclusive (unless xna for 350 ;) ) but i only have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs trying some games like robotron on keyboard would be cripling and so would the hover demo

i remember playing blodwych 2 player with the joystick that lacked a grid method and moving from one end of the screen to the other was a pain doubly so as i was playing both teams myself as my brother always got lost in those types of maze games
so if it was predominantly mouse id have to look into the best way to offer other alternatives
eg card games like solitair only need you to use the cursor keys and dlick substitute and it would snap from one card to the next no fuss

So, the 360 controller. All you do is plug and play? What software you guys using to get it too work?

I'll play it if i got a pad, but i'm afraid i'm not going out to get an analogue pads just for one game, cause all my other games use the mouse and play great with that.

However, if the 360 pad works, then great! Must be lots of people with 360's. And probably most of them stupid like me, and not realising you can easily use them on your PC.

if its wired its better cos you dont have to buy a wire less dongle (unless borrowing it from the 360 itself (typed the right number this time) ) it might not work on every game, i was having issues with unreal anthology at one point but never really worked on getting it sorted

but blitz supports most if not all buttons nativly
i cant vouch for any other pc game pad or ps2 to usb effort

i lack games as my gfx card spits out nigh on everything i put in it these days and the old ones it could work on refuse to talk to xp

i was on the market for a pc pad to complement my wired 360/games for windows one
to see how different they are in button ordering etc

hmv had a gioteck ps3 going for £10 thought id get it cos it was a tenner and came with an a/b usb cable which also fits my camera and sd recorder so it would be worth it for a spare cable

they had the sony sixaxis one for damn near £40 from what i can tell the bottom buttons are analogue triggers not buttons ala 360

thus far it dont want to talk to windows let alone the hover thingie demo, but i might find something on hinternet if i can be bothered looking

but it was a tenner and if it worked out of the box £10 is £10
game had a pc pad for less than £15 but i thought id try this out first

Speaking of button order... I've just got my hands on a 360 controller and bizarrely the triggers are on the same axis which means they can't be used individually, they are mutually exclusive, which seems utterly daft to me. And the buttons above the triggers are 5 and 6 not 9 and 10 like they were for you. Further more I can't get any response from the D Pad at all.

9 and 10 were the under the thumb stick buttons
thats why i thought theyd be best for thruster controll ... only thumbs needed :)

5 and 6 were the index finger buttons
dpad is listed as a hat in the joystick config section
but i never tried that

im not sure but i think some xbox (clasic this is) games allowed for both triggers to be used
if you go to the calibrate section of your game and hold one then hold em both i think it kinda 'works' but if it works in game is another matter

edit:
it finally saw my ps3 pad
button number order seems the same
the dpad ends up as 13 14 15 and 16
but 360 pad is just 'hat'

so for all you nay sayers ouit their in the uk go to hmv and get the gioteck ps3 wired pad its only a tenner (and boy does it feel like a fivers nay £2.50's worth) ... then test your games for joystick support for us joypadders (or get a wired adapter for your 360)

Can people with controllers have a go with this and just see if it calibrates ok for your controller.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.farley/download/Misc/AutoSetup.zip

The analog sticks both work perfectly on my 360 pad, button quits the app too.

I've tested it with a 360 and a Saitek controller and seems to work ok... It's a somewhat friendlier way to set up a controller than the one I've got on the tech demo!

360 works (not that you need telling that ;) )
cheapo p-o-s ps3 compatible ditto

Hi Rob,

I assume you sorted the 360 independant triggers problem. I've got the 360 wired usb controller working for an FPS with just the built in commands if that helps.

I also got the PS3 controller working (just digi + analogue, no motion), but I have to run a PS3 initiator app on the cmd line first time I plug the pad(s) in, which is a slight pain (got the exe from the dcemu forums iirc).

It is quite amusing having 2 player split screen, one using 360 controller, one using PS3 :) plus I'll whack in keyboard mouse support for some 'keyboard + mouse VS gamepad' action. Hee hee.

Cheers,
LW.

LamptonWorm, are you from washington or the north east by any chance? Your name makes me think so. It seems there are more geordies on this site than I thought!

'fraid not, I'm south-west England. Oo-arrr.

have a "Thrustmaster" joypad here but is has only one (left) analog stick
the programm runs fine ,exit button also but the "not available right stick" moves in the same way as the left, i think its ok .
mfg