3D Engine and Game Development

I indent to proceed to the purchase of a 3D engine.
Which 3D engine do you propose?
Basic prerequisites are:
1. Maximum price: $150
2. DX9.0 and above
3. Use with C++ language
4. Proper for Game applications

To be honest, I would personally just go with straight DirectX... Simply because, when you buy X engine.. will additional coding be required on top of the engine to make your game as intended.

Its a situation I've seen tons of times.

[EDITED: Bloody girlfriends, I go for a drink and come back and in this page was bebo!]

Are you an engine coder? Are you willing to spend the time to compete with existing technologies feature wise, debug, test, test, test, test, test, etc or...are you a game designer just wanting to dive in and start making a game? Answer that first and it will determine which way you ultimately should go. ;)

When I jump ship into the 3d realm, I'm 100% sure going to purchase one of the more popular stable 3D engines to work with.

I would use OpenGL (download the NeHe tutorials and your away)


Its free


Its multiplatform and supports all the stuff DX9 does


It works with C/C++ and it completely multiplatform.


Yup loads of games developed in it.

Spend the extra 50 bucks and pick up the C4 engine.

http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php

stayne: Is there a special reason to spend 50 bucks more for the C4 engine?

becuase you can't get it for 50 bucks less?

It takes some believing that you've received three answers (presumably) without knowing what kind of game you want to make with it, but anyway, I think I'd like to know what type of game you want to make with it.

Reading the futures of the C4 engine I don't see something special. Take a look for example in the futures list of the TV3D engine. There is build in physics engine. C4 does not have built in physics

I don't have a type of game in my mind. Is it necessary to have?

No, it's not necessary, but I wouldn't want to try to make anything other than a FPS in C4.

Well the only two general purpose 3D engines I think are worth anything are TrueVision3D and PowerRender. I think both come in around $150. TV3D can be used with any C++ compiler, whereas you will need to be using Visual Studio or Borland C++ if you want to use PowerRender.

PowerRender is very nice, but development seems to have stalled, and the developer is now looking for volunteers to join the project. To play with or to learn from, it's great, but it's probably not what you want if you want something production ready ( and you said you do. )

TV3D is very fast, very powerful and very easy. The downside is there isn't any official documentation yet, but there are lots of examples, articles and docs for an older version around, and besides it's really *very* easy. I suppose another downside might be that you won't be able to get much C++ help on the forums, so if you need help brushing up your C++ skills, you'll probably want to do that elsewhere. The TV3D community is primarily using VB, and some C#. The biggest upside is it's completely free until you want to release a commercial product, so you don't have to pay to try.

That's the type of info I want. Thanks Gabriel

Visit this site: http://www.devmaster.net/engines/

Plenty to choose from and plenty of (biased I'm sure) reviews.

Thanks. I forgotten that page. Very helpful indeed!

What's the difference? (except from the Price of course!)

For $150 you can distribute one product for $500 you can distribute unlimited products.

Which means that I can sell only one copy of my game or I can sell unlimited copies of only one game?
(sorry for this stupid question but this is what I understand)

Im liking irrlicht.

Unlimited copies of one game.

Oops! that's not good...
D4NM4N: Irrlicht is not bad but its API looks greeks to me (lol)

I think you got me, but I should probably clarify that I meant the $150 license is for unlimited copies of one game, and the $500 license is for unlimited copies of unlimited games.

C++ and Ogre, a combo lots of companies are using.

I think Ogre guys are clear:
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What Is OGRE?
OGRE (Object-Oriented Graphics Rendering Engine) is a scene-oriented, flexible 3D engine written in C++ designed to make it easier and more intuitive for developers to produce applications utilising hardware-accelerated 3D graphics. The class library abstracts all the details of using the underlying system libraries like Direct3D and OpenGL and provides an interface based on world objects and other intuitive classes.

What can it do?
Lots of things! See the features page for an up-to-date list of the current features. Also, take a look at the screenshots page to see for yourself the kinds of eye candy OGRE can pump out.

Is OGRE A Game Engine?
No. OGRE can be (and indeed has been) used to make games, but OGRE is deliberately designed to provide just a world-class graphics solution; for other features like sound, networking, AI, collision, physics etc, you will need to integrate it with other libraries, something several frameworks have done, and we have a collision / physics reference integration library as an example in our distribution.
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@ moraldi,

I know, thats why i am writing a load of "b3d-ish functions" containing the equivalent irr commands, so i only have to delve in to the greek when i need to do something out of scope of what my own functions do.

Email me if you are interested in sharing :)

Id recommend Ogre too. There are a bunch of well maintained addons that make creating a game framework from seperate componants fairly straightforward for a competent C++ coder who's comfortable with OO.

Irrlicht is supposed to be easier but suffers from weak art pipeline thanks to supporting too many incomplete geometry formats and materials. Plus less organized project management and design. I think thats why you don't see many finished projects done with Irrlicht compared to some other engines.

I recommend Leadwerks engine.
http://www.leadwerks.com
It is very interesting and I think it is going to support C++.

Im highly recommending Horde3D..seems to be much easier than OGRE and its modern engine with all or almost all fancy things..and its free..

OGRE + OpenAL + PhysX + Your Custom Game Framwork = Win.

Well, you asked for a 3D engine for games - a game engine is something completly different, like "rpg maker", "game maker", "mugen", etc - so I pointed you to a 3D engine;

'But there's no easy way - you have to test a lot of 3D engines to find one which will best suit your game/application. It could be Ogre, Irrlicht, Horde3D... anything. Just try out the engines, see how complex it is to write a simple demo of what you want, and see which gives you better results, not only in performance, but also in development time.

angel martinez and Naughty Alien, have you actually programmed a project to completion using those engines? You can't really make an informed recommendation on an engine that you haven't used extensively.

Just out of the stomach:

1) Go, get some work and buy yourself a unity pro licence and spare a lot of time afterwards.
2) Have a try with free solutions like XNA2 ( http://creators.xna.com/ ) or JavaMonkeyEngine ( http://jmonkeyengine.com/ ).
3) Try out Gabriel's TV3D with BlitzMax.
4) You also could give Shiva a try ( http://www.stonetrip.com/index.php?lang=en ).
5) Wait for Director's 3D Engine Update / Flow with BlitzMax / Max3D (or at least a worklog update :O).
:

..yeah, unity rocks, i must admit..version 2.x is real beauty..

@boomboom
my dear I havent try it on that way, and thats for sure..but im pointing on to it regarding features list and comments about I use to read, so..what i can guarantee, based on my touch ups with is JME and recently my rebirth in Unity3D environment..

For heavens sake don't take Leadwerks Engine! Version 1.x was never really stable or working on a wide range of hardware. I'd recommend C4 as well:

- you use C++
- features are awesome (take a look on the website)
- it has its own World Editor (which is quite important if you really want a good workflow)

Only downside is: it costs $200 but hey: you get a stable engine with lots of features and it works on PC, Mac and (whith seperate license) Playstation 3. But only buy it if you're 100% sure you want do develop with C++. If you're not sure then better chose BlitzMax and wait for Flow!

Unity is nice as well but I guess the Indie price tag is already to high for you.

I thought Unity was Mac only... maybe I'm thinking of a different engine?

Unity IS mac only... however it has a cross-compiler to create windows apps, web apps (Mac & windows), iphone apps and obviously Mac OS X apps.

PLS

And Wii games...

Thanks guys for your responses.
I will comment these:
For all those they purpose OGRE/Horde3D: I will spend some money because I want a ready to use solution. I don't want to waste my time finding how I will combine various libraries.
gosse: Your purpose looks interesting but requires more time in order to have a productive start.
Unity looks very promising but my machine is XP based and I don't intend to change it.
Leadwerks engine: A totally unknown product to me. Which tool the author used to develop it?. It seems that the development is based on a single person. I don't think it is a professional solution and it is waste of money.
I am looking towards to TV3D and C4
C4 looks much more value for money (all in one with $200) but TV3D gives you more freedom in code (take a look at some samples) and it is much more expensive (Equivalent to C4 licence: $500)
Java, Blitz Max? What is that? junk food? :) Sorry but I am a lover of C++...
But I still waiting for some news from Mr. Mark about Blitz3D SDK DX9.0...

Moraldi: A lot of engines (especially the $0 - $200 ones) are single-developer projects, so don't think it's a waste of money just because of that. Instead, check the product out and see for yourself how you like it.

Regardless of cost, Ogre is an excellent graphics engine (it's quality and support is better than many $500+ engines), but as you said you want a full game engine, and you don't want to be an engine programmer. In that case I'd check out C4, TV3D maybe (I've never been impressed by TV3D in any way, but I hear it's easy to use), NeoAxis, Leadwerks engine (which would be an excellent RAD solution if it fits the style of game you want), and others. Try them and find what you like.


Uh oh. Flameduck should be here soon telling you why you really should be hating C++.

... though he does have some good points - C++ can be a difficult language to work with at times, but I like it too because it's speed is fast enough to allow you much more freedom than any special C# or Java features can offer.

Neoaxis is Pretty cool and uses Ogre for rendering. Utilizes the power and convenience of C# and the .Net platform and is compatible with any .Net supported programming language. ODE or Physx, pick whichever you want at startup. They just got a extra developer to port to Mac, Linux via mono and 360 after that.

Comes with various editors and seems pretty cool.

http://www.neoaxisgroup.com/description.htm

Ogre seems to have more games released with it and recently had had a handfull of commercial games made with it. Something that can' be said with most of the Indie priced solutions out there.

I believe its had more commercial game releases than Torque. Which isn't saying much lol.

@Naughty Alien
Anything done with it yet - link? :O)

Try this

Aoneweb @This look really interesting. Thanks for the link.
Just for your info:
1. I noticed that the newest update exists since Aug 27 2007
2. There is no detailed information about its futures. I hope I can mine something somewhere in forums...
3. They say it is a game ready engine but they sell extra a collision plug in... Probably these guys think that collision capabilities is not a must for a game engine ...

Gabriel

I also like TrueVision3D thanks to its straightforward and essential game architecture
Hoewever I am looking also for a world editor
Did you try Planetx map editor ?
I got the impression it is a little naif

Never used PowerRender but it seems good, tools included,
It should be also stable , I suppose, thanks to the long experience of the designer

The point is the comunity
The engine is not dead but nobody seems to visit the forum
Why ?
Just a poor marketing ?
Anybody using Power Render ?

Moraldi
The updated version will be out soon, the collision that is sold for Blitz3D is Incorporated in to the software.
A version of the core is also being produced for the Basic language, we are beta testing the IDE right now.

NuclearGlory is DX9 thing? I cant se any information on web site...if so, im very interested in to purchase...

@Taumel
Im working on some juicy outdoor test drive in Unity...I'll post screenshots over there on forums soon..its actually one of the levels i use to engage with B3D...so what im trying to do is learning how to properly use 3DSMAX->Unity, inclusive lighting, radiosity and stuff.. ;)

TrueVision3D. No contest.

Hahah. Not really. Ugly women need to be loved too! :o>

i've used TrueVision3D on and off for a few years I havent touched it in a few months last I knew you could not make a commercial product with it yet because its still in beta? That could of changed but I would recommend using TrueVision3D hands down very easy to use and the community isn't to bad.

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what can I say...? ;)

EDIT:
ckob: Are you still developing?. What is the tool you use now?
Is there any reason you stop TV3D except that it was in beta stage?

Nope, I'm writing my own game engine, which requires its own tools, so I haven't tried it. From all the positive things people say about it, I got the impression it was very good, and I've talked with the author on IRC, and he certainly seems to know what he's doing. But it's just an impression.


Historically, PowerRender was a very expensive engine, used mainly by professional development companies. It's only been available at such a low price for a few months, so I think it's just that most of the users are professional developers who aren't going to hang out on forums like we do.

I would agree that I prefer an active community personally, but you asked why, and that's my take on it.

thanks

Moraldi, Yes still developing I have not used TV3D in awhile mainly because im restricted on time so I haven't really been working on any games mainly just tools.

Yep, you've been able to release commercial products for a few months now. Maximum Football was the first commercial release, I think :

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=301

wow nice im glad they went all the way with that project I remember them starting it. I may get back into using the engine now once I get more free time.

I've been checking Nuclear Basic for a few days and it looks really cool. It will be released soon with DX9, shader support, dll support, commandset really similiar to B3D etc.

Check it on it's forums.

Isn't NB a basic derivative of NF but without using C++?

Looks like it will be. I think it will be better than DBP and Cobra3D. It has Shader, Win32 GUI, direct DLL(no decls need) support and author says it will have dynamic shadows and built in physics in later versions. I hope it will be fast and stable enough to compare with Blitz3D. Syntax is almost the same with Blitz3D. It's cheap too for such a product. I'll buy for sure.

... but why not buy the already available NF as you want a C++ related engine?

tonyg: are you asking me? Because they say NOTHING about its futures.

Is it DX9.0 and above?
Which compilers are supported?

I am not asking the Blitz3D community but when you are trying to sell a product the you have to be clear.

...but NB *is* NF. Anyway, if it were me and I would use their forums or contact details for more information rather than just writing them off.

Why I should do that? I have so many other solutions. :)
Its a market law...

So you're going for the engine with the best information availablen and marketing? OK, have you seen DB SDK?

Yap, I've seen it. Marketing and a lot of information for a product before purchase are important nowadays.

That's true. However, for $150 you'll be looking at products on the lower scale with small development teams. That means that not all bases are covered. Take BRL : Super languages, rubbish marketing, OK information, terrible doc. Then check TGC : Poor products, great marketing, great information, OK doc.
Personally, I check the support forums for a product and the demo. Marketing can be misleading.
Anyway, despite raising the topic, you seem to know what you're looking for and how you're going to go about it so good luck.

Thanks tonyg. I am not even an indie and my budget is very limited. Will see...

Because it's a matter of quality, not quantity?

Which one are you thinking of? Nobodies ever been fired for buying IBM/Microsoft? A product costs, what it's customers are willing to pay for it? Buy the same software as the industry leader?

In fact, much like magic, misleading people is the whole point of doing marketing in the first place.

Why don't you download NF and take a look at the command reference?

NF update shall be in Beta testing very soon, Once done NB will also be released to the beta testers.
We are giving the IDE a bashing at the moment, and all is going well.
As for the future, NB and NF will be upgraded regularly, and user requests will be taken in to account, so post your requests on the forum, you will get an answer.

hey..this thingy looks nice :)..mmmmmmMMmMmmMmmmmm...

Get PowerRender

you get the full sources, the license is like TV3D (and unlike most others) a site license not a single user license.

Those two things rule out most other engines including Torque, TGC, NF, .... and even TV3D as you don't get the sources to it (beside that point its definitely highly recommend to try it as well as it is high performant even on low end GPUs like GMA900)

Source is important especially if you want specific features or want to integrate 3rd party technology into the engine.
And I don't think I need to explain the importance of the later one ... you can easily spend a tousand and more just because each one who needs access to the docs has to own a license and the like.

trying to download free trial but seems Server 1 is down...
I will try to contact them...

EDIT: After a few tries I managed to start download. I don't know what happened. Files size is 250 MB

Stay away from NuclearFusion. It has been "announced" very long and it currently is beta at the best. I had a dual license for NF and NB but got a refund because I don't think it will ever be stable enough to actually do something with it.

Hmm..but Matthew says they spent 3 years on NB because they are making sure that it will be %100 stable and compatible with very old computers. I hope NB won't dissapoint me because from what I read and understood, it's completely what I'm looking for.

BTW, Anyone knows how much did it take Blitz3D to be released?

good advice from squareiris :)

Good question
I took a look on some samples of PowerRender. I like them very much. PowerRender seems more attractive than TV3D due to its lower price although I still don't know if it is capable as TV3D...

Some people would rather a quick release than a stable product, thats why they paid for DBP.
The NF release will happen after Beta testing, this will start very soon.
NF is the core for NB, we have a custom IDE, similar to VS, the compiler is being tweaked to accommodate the many new features added to NF.
The NF update is a big one, it is also free to V303 owners, this is a major give away, you will not get this sort of treatment elsewhere.

Matthew has vowed to stay active on the forums, to answer any questions you may have.
NB wants to be the most complete basic programming language out there, no need to buy add ons, Matthew is trying to include as much as possible for the release, then update NB and NF with as many user requests as possible, thoes that make sense anyway.
The Price is right, and the support will be second to none.
So if you have concrete proof that this product is unstable, please let us Know your findings and we will address them, if it is just sour grapes, then I suggest others should not take any notice.

The last time I used NF was months ago. I now have a iMac and just because I can use BlitzMax here and NB not means BlitzMax is already the more complete solution. NF also lacks features and the screenshots so far have been not impressive at all.
DarkBasicPro is stable now by the way. That's what friends who were used to flame DBP told me. They are surprised but on the other hand that's what you expect after a product has received V6.xxx -.-

Isn't DBP syntax is a pain? And you have to buy a bunch of libraries to create something decent too. I also heard that it's slow.

Until NB comes out I'll stick to B3D. I thought LE 2.0 would be a good choice too but I changed my mind as it will need a SM 3.0 gfx card and it's no use for indie devs. IMO.

Yeah, LE 2.0 will not be for indies.

Yes DBP is stable at least the engine. the code and syntax still is a reincarnation from hell. Even 1980s Pascal language capability massively exceed what DBP can do ... its not even capable of by ref types which is a joke.

If you like DBPs visual end use GDK ... if you want something that scales to stuff lower than high end machines, use TV3D or whatever comes from a real 3d development team ie not TGC

man..save some money and get Unity3D..its simply rocks..

Hey Naughty Alien,

On what scale from 1 to 10 for Ease of used on Unity3D?

I dont have macpro. I am waiting for Window version of Unity3D Demo before I make judgement of them.

Darkbasicpro is horrible.

..well..if you compare Unity with B3D, then dont...Unity giving you freedom to see actual things you have to code in b3d or pretty much everything majority of use to deal with(basically renderers), so,once you are familiar with javaScript, wich is really easy, its beauty and charm to work with Unity..i mean, inside you got terrain editor, drag/drop objects, dynamic shadows, water, shaders, texture simply load and assign to objects and set up properities on the fly(you see it in real time)..and basically even props, I upload from my 3Dsmax machine in to folder and poop..Unity reload refresh it for me automaticaly...basically, its removing stress from your neck about setting up scene and whatever...and leaving you to focus on to game itself..once everything is done simply compile your game to platform you aiming for (PC, MAC, Web, Iphone and Wii support comming..mmm..)...but to answer your question, i think im not relevant, since i just started with Unity again after version 2.x pop up..before i hated it (I had it but never used), but now with 2.x version is whole different world...anyway, you should ask taumel for precise answer..as for me, i picked it up quite fast, and documentation is extraordinary for it, plus you can download whole source code for completed platformer game with all media, animations and so on, so you can easy see whats going on...

if only unity 3d was available for Win32, I'd buy pro version even if it not that cheep I would buy it, it sucks that it's currently only for Mac and Windows version probly won't be out for a year or longer...

Yup it will take some further time till a win version will be available, but it will come. Just to make a few things clear, the iphone support isn't available yet, it has only been announced and whilst the Wii support is available this is a special deal were you need a) a Nintendo devkit and b) a special $ intensive licence, so for the normal indie at this point it leaves the target platforms win (xp,vista), osx (ppc,x86) standalone (executable), webplayer (IE, Firefox, Safari), widget (useless imo) market for the pro version and osx standalone, webplayer (watermark on win) and widget for indie.

If you're serious about the development of a 3d game/content then it's worth the investment of a mac and the licence. If not then i would rather wait for the win version to arrive unless you want to swap to a mac nonetheless.

I recommend TrueVision3D. It's very powerful and easy to use.

-AF