Future of Blitzmax

No, its not another thread demanding "Max3D or else".

I'm currently using Blitzmax via subversion. I'm doing this for the simple reason that I read somewhere that this was "how it was going to be" in the future. So I figured I may as well get used to it.

But, is there a chance that I could end up releasing a game with a broken version of Blitzmax?

Prior to this, I was using the Installer version and there hadn't been anything come through syncmods for absolutely ages. This is how somebody put me onto the Subversion copy.

Blitzmax, Subversion being the way forward, is a dog to install. You first need Subversion, then you have to bugger about with command prompt to download BlitzMax, then install MinGW and set that up which is an ordeal in itself, oh, and then you need an IDE because there isn't one if you install via Subversion.

So now I'm just confused. Which version should I be using? Has syncmods finally been scrapped? Will there be any more "Installer" updates after v1.28? I'll go back to the old method if that and syncmods will continue to be supported.

Yes, Syncmods has been scrapped. There will be installer updates, but apparently not terribly often. SVN replaces Syncmods only. Essentially installers will come out for major updates, and SVN is for betas and small fixes.

I can't really say whether it's good practice to use SVN or not. Personally, I'm not, but then I don't really need any fixes for anything. I'm using BlitzMax's core functionality, along with maps, lists, banks and streams. Everything else I either write myself or use third party modules. I'm not using MaxGUI and I'm not using any networking stuff. If I was using MaxGUI, I'm pretty sure I would be using SVN because the GUI seems to need, and get, the most fixes.

Hopefully the core functionality won't change any more now unless 100% necessary as it's changed a lot in the past and sometimes those changes have been broken (which is normal for a complex project).

Subversion is really easy if you follow these instructions:

http://blitzbasic.com:81/svn/blitzmax/README

But the next version of the Max IDE should have a built in subversion update option...

I can't really see why it would be so difficult for them to offer a packaged download, like a zip or something. I doubt that it takes long to make the package, and that way they would be pleasing both camps of developers. Sure we will eventually have to get used to using the SVN if we want updates, but should it really have to be like that?

I don't think so. I think its all getting unnecessarily overcomplicated.

What new user is going to want to find and install Subversion, open up the command prompt and type a load of stuff in, install MinGW, set up environment vars to get MinGW to work, compile all the modules (because the whole exercise is useless until you do), then find an IDE - all before they can actually do anything with it?

With Unity i just download the latest version and they update more often than BRL does...

makes me glad I stopped using blitzmax........

Very few. It's been clear to me for a while that Mark and Co. seem to have forgotten what makes (or made) Blitz products so appealing - and primarily that's ease of use.

One of the reasons why I am clinging on to Blitz3D - I just don't like the feel of BMax. It is never going to be as cute as Blitz3D. Cobra3D is cuter than BMax.

This is the sort of thing that still puts me off using BMax. The language is great but all the faffing around makes me wonder whether it is worth the hassle.

Blitz3D was great because it just worked and this is what drew me to the language in the first place over more complex languages.

Jason.

Considering they wouldn't *need* to do any of those things, probably not many.


BRL makes the current stable version available as a downloadable self contained installer/updater (this isn't going to change) and an entirely optional development version available via SVN.

Lots of other packages manage to do this quite successfully without all the whinging and propaganda that occurs here. I wonder why that is?

Do those other package have the same target demographic?

I agree with Yan: if you want the official stable versions you just download the installer/update applications. If you want the latest dev versions then you have to use subversion. It's the most professional way of doing this and I'm glad mark decided to go that way.
BlitzMax is already more professional than Blitz3D and *insertanyotherbasiclanguage*

All it lacks atm is threading. This is the ONLY feature that is missing.

Because producers of these 'other packages' have a sense of direction?

I don't know. I don't consider this 'whinging'. There are currently two delivery methods for Blitzmax and nowhere have I seen BRL mention A) why two methods exist, and B) Which we should all be using. Hence, this thread.

SVN is great if you use something like Tortoise SVN. If you have to set up all that commandline stuff to access the SVN and cant use something simple like tortoise than I agree. SVN becomes way complicated.

We use SVN for all our projects and combined with tortoise SVN I love it.

-------
BTW I got SVN working in 4 seconds by modifying the URL someone posted above. (it points at a file not a folder)

just create a Bmax folder, in the folder right click and in the tortoiseSVN windows explorer menu, choose checkout.




in the url field paste http://blitzbasic.com:81/svn/blitzmax



click ok, you will get a login dialogue popup



your login and password are the same as this web site.

When your done you will have:

We were raised on Blitz3D. These forums were once united - a common cause - now we are split - each faction fighting for supremecy - we are torn - the community spirit diluted - dissolved - faded. On a hill, a small boy clutches his Blitz3D, turns and walks into the cold, dark night - stooped and hunched, his shoulders crushed by the weight of his loss - what does tomorrow bring him? What future has he - this lost lamb of Blitz?

you can get tortoise SVN from http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/

Just run the installer, reboot your puter and SVN is in your windows explorer right click menu. Takes a couple of seconds to set up with bmax, see my last post.

The title of the thread is completely wrong: the future of Blitzmax is not related in the way it is/will be distribuited.

As said before: full & ready version is available via standard download+install .exe (or other package). Click & Run...
Developement version is accessible via other tools (they could be not so pratical but they works).
The only - negative - effect is the number of tools needed (SVN, CVS and whatever will be exist).

How its distributed is directly related to its future.

If you needed Subversion, if you needed MinGW, if you needed to find your own IDE, if you needed to manually compile its modules first, it probably wouldn't have a future. The majority of people don't want to spend hours farting about and jumping through flaming hoops like that.

Christ, you don't even need to do all that with C++.

I may get shot down in flames here but, what was wrong with Syncmods?

i guess the linux users would be used to all this faffing ;)

That's great, except now Project Studio does not know what day it is because the files are all over the place. I'd rather stick rusty nails in my eyes than use the standard IDE.

Is a little consistency really too much to ask??

I don't understand the problem :

1. Most people should and will use the stable binaries posted on product updates.
2. If you are more adventurous, you get the added bonus of getting access to the latest development versions using SVN. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE IT!

The *one* problem with this situation at the moment is that maxgui users have no means of avoiding SVN, and I agree that this specific situation is not good.

I've just noticed that the SVN version has four folders.

v1.28/win32_x86
v1.28/main (same as above but with only subfolders and no modules)
dev/win32_x86
dev/main (same as above but with only subfolders and no modules)

Why??

I have MaxGUI.

The "stable binaries, plus SVN for the adventurous" system is acceptable. But frankly BRL could be a little more communicative about the process, particularly the timetable for stable binary updates.

Hallelujah!

Well, sod this subversion lark - I've wasted more time than I care to talk about messing about with this today. I've just reinstalled 1.18 and the 1.28 update, done a syncmods, and Project Studio (and me) is as happy as Larry again. Whoever Larry is...

I was under the impression that SVN was going to be used so those more adventurous could get a hold of the latest developmental version of BlitzMAX, and syncmod was still going to be used for patches and bug fixes that didn't need a whole new version.

For example, Version 1.30 gets released. You would download and install. Then a bug is discovered, Mark works on a fix. You could download the fix via SVN. After it was determined that the fix actually works and doesn't break anything else, then the less adventurous users could syncmod the fix.

When bug fixes are not necessary, then you can download the next working beta version (version 1.32beta in my example) and help test and debug it. That way, when it is finally released as an installable download, there will be fewer bugs which will need to be syncmodded.

I guess I must be wrong about that, since no fixes have been reaching the syncmod server. But I think it would be a good way to handle things.

Well...Yeah...But this is BRL we're talking about, so that goes without saying, does it not? ;o)

Worth the hassle? hell yes it is.

svn isn't as scary as most of you are putting on.

EDIT:

rusty nails!? But seriously, have you tried out BLIde?

Not for a long time. I went off it.

As a new user, I had no issue with SVN. It was very simple to figure out and I appreciate being able to easily keep my versions current, especially for MaxGUI which I am heavily depending on for my work.

SVN is good move. Be nice to see the public implementation as I am needing to make such a move soon (public that is).

Several things. For starters it does lots of things, much more poorly than Subversion, and is (at best) fidgety about being cross-platform.

That certainly depends on whether you're doing it recreationally or professionally. In the first case, no worries. In the later, you probably just want something that works out of the box. Like every other competing product.

But surely this is a problem with a somewhat limited impact? Eventually the 3rd party IDE developers will get their act together and support updates via Subversion transparently.

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the whole point behind SVN was to keep track of source code versions between many programmers working on the same code (ie. BlitzMax itself). It may be beneficial for BRL internally, but for BlitzMax users too? I'm not so sure, I thought Syncmods did a better job for the end user.


Fully agree, in my opinion using SVN actually promotes never ending tweaks, prolonging the committing of code to a stable release binary.

I really don't get who BlitzMax is targetted at, it's not as simple as the other Blitz products for newbies. It leans more towards the advanced user, but for the same amount of hassle they could go with C++/C#/etc instead and benefit from more resources/better IDEs/better docs/endless libraries.

True, but blitzmax is a lot easier to learn then c++/c.

I think Bmax should really be using a system like BZR, since the whole modules thing does not fit well with a centralized repository...
As for using such a system for updates, I think it's a good way to do it. Why write a custom updater when there are systems out there essentially designed for that?

On the topic of being convoluted, I for one agree. Mark, take a step back from Max3D and write BlitzMax the proper all-in-one "making stuff work" tool it deserves!

Stupid consideration: someone could create a 'downloader+installer' program to manage & setup all the things (Mingw, SVN, OpenAl and of course BlitzMax core + modules and external program as new IDE, FrameWork Assistant, UPX...) - to simplify the user life.
I think it should not be too complex to create (SVN can run via command line interface...)
So the 'complexity' will be hidden by a step-by-step program.
Of course BRL should decide once what system will use and not change the 'folder structure' (like v1.28/win32_x86 - v1.28/main (same as above but with only subfolders and no modules) -
dev/win32_x86 - dev/main....) or create 2 separate folders: Stable and Dev.
Only my opionin/suggestion of course...

I agree it would be nice to have a 'install and run version' I too think that its stupid that it has to have MingW installed to run some things. Maybe it should be included in the installer to make it easier for new people to enter the BlitzMax arena, syncmods worked well I havent tried the SVN thing it seems convulted and a long way to go about it why not just have a dev section of the site that points to the folders required.

I would like to know where max is going, we have been promised so much new stuff I think its about time that BRL delivered on some of those promises.

Blitzmax is pretty much a dead language now.

Why not just use Flash instead? Instant multi-platform and you can do 3D, much quicker than Blitzmax and infinitely more reliable.

@Enay: Flash is slower than BlitzMax, Flash itself is also more of a "set up scene and run" environment than a programming language. Plus the costs to develop with Flash are too high for a student like me and most indie developers. Flash is not good for application programming and it's 3D part is simply worse than MiniB3D.

Of course it is. And there's a new DX9 version of B3D coming out tomorrow. And Microsoft have just announced that the next version of Windows will be written in BlitzPlus.


For the same reason that I don't brush my teeth with a pitchfork. It's not remotely cut out to do the job.

lmao

lol, Flash is a joke. It's a step up from HTML, but its main function is really to produce nice dynamix web sites. It was flexible enough to make games, but its not really got the muscle for it.

What Gabriel just said :P

I really wish we could hear mark's take on this whole deal..

Sounds like it's screaming out for one of the IDE writers to integrate SVN into their offerings :)

On the TortoiseSVN front, I think it's very useful and easy to use in conjunction with my sporadic C/C++ Innosetup scripting endeavours. The Diff tool within it alone is great for development purposes.

I confess, I have not attempted the SVN route for BMax, but you don't need to if you don't use Max GUI, then again I've not updated for a while.

As for BMax being a dead language, my children's school which is using an educational tool where the 'engine' is made using BMax would disagree. The software is also sanctioned by BECTA.

Yep, like Gabriel said.

*Ahem* SVN is integrated into the CE IDE.

1) Install a command line SVN client, and make sure typing "svn" at a command line is at least recognised.

2) Install the CE IDE.

3) Go to managing project, set the type to SVN, the URL to the official one, and the directory to wherever you want to checkout to. Hit checkout.

4) Get updates by right clicking in the project navbar on the right and select Update.

You'll need to consider where you want to checkout to (are you happy to overwrite the stable binaries, or not), and then build modules.

There's not too much more that could be integrated into an IDE. It's not really advisable to check everything out over the top of the stable BlitzMax directory, but that's your call. And you still need an svn client installed and MingW to build modules.

Except it isn't :-p

*Support* for it is integrated, sure, but "Install a command line SVN client" implies you've still to install a whole load of other stuff on-top-of everything in order to make it work.

Integration, at least to me, implies that you get the IDE and SVN is part of it.

Basic computer skills are a prerequisite for any programming language. Using a simple command line program should not be beyond the capabilities of any programmer. If it is, these people should not be programming as nobody wants to install a program written by somebody who lacks basic computer skills.

Blitzmax isn't dead. Saying that is showing ignorance.

SVN isn't the issue here. The issue I keep seeing voiced is laziness and an aversion to change or an aversion to something new.

I guess you could take that stance...I briefly thought about doing just that, but a) presumed - with admittedly no real research - that this would take quite some effort to achieve, and b) installing an svn client isn't that hard - why re-invent the wheel?

On the basis that someone wanting to use the latest & greatest *must* have installed a compiler (i.e. MigW on windows) to build modules, the effort to simply install one more app (svn) made the judgement call a simple one in my mind.

Mark: You left out "c) anyone that even remotely has the *need* for Subversion updates, will have Subversion installed already!"

I think that the problem stems from you already have to install Blitzmax, MingW to get anything to work, now we need to install SVN as well to get updates. Surely there should be an easier way than that, three different programs just to write games in max.

:)

I think some people think they're missing out on something special without SVN. You're not - it's not like there's a shedload of fixes & extra functionality hiding in there for you - albeit with the sole exception of the problem child that is maxgui...

I think the main 'problem' with SVN is that its much less userfriendly to the end user than syncmods ever was, so it's easily seen as a step backwards.

Syncmods 'just worked' without the need for either a 3rd party SVN client or MinGW to be installed.

While SVN is probably a lot easier to manage from BRL's point of view, I can definitely see the other side of the argument as well.

With the exception of Blitz basic, I don't feel that any of the other BRL products were ever finished.

max will never be completed because as things change it needs to change with it. I would like to see everything encased in the one package without the need to download and install loads.

Over romanticizing the past are we? Syncmods didn't "just work", and without a roll-out procedure making a release on syncmods must have been hell! Subversion is easy, and actually works. If it's too much of a hassle to type "svn update" at a command prompt, then maybe you shouldn't be programming in the first place.

I hate to reiterate what Duffer said, but he was right on the money. This is more about aversion to change than any legitimate concern.

Yes I realize that the idea of using versioning software can be daunting, but anyone smart enough to be able to program computers somewhat competently, is capable of figuring out how to use Subversion in an afternoon or so.

Well, I agree with Gfk. I just want to download and run or update. Is that too much to ask for?

Also, has there been an official announcement from BRL or a sticky describing the new update process? When I look at the 'update' page there is nothing mentioned about SVN or what ever... Also, no mention in the blitzmax forums.

This is not about aversion, but a lack (AGAIN) of communication about the matter from BRL. They do this time and time again and we keep at it because the product rocks, but to be honest, I am losing faith here.

No. I don't think that seems unreasonable at all, although I do think BRL provides this, albeit less frequently than everyone seems to want. Personally I'm content with the occasional update trickling my way, but I only use it sporadically, if at all these days (mainly due to lack of time and shortcomings of the language compared to Python).

Get it from Account -> Product Updates? From what I understand, playing around with SVN is for people who absolutely must have the latest and greatest. Kinda like -unstable- packages in Debian. It's not that they don't work (although that's a definite possibility), it's just that they haven't been tested vigorously enough, and you probably shouldn't use them in a production environment, which is what I suspect GfK is chiefly using BlitzMAX for.

I couldn't agree more. At the end of the day, however it makes little difference what you or I think. It's BRLs game and they're entitled to play it any way they want, and as long as they're happy with the way things are going, we can huff and puff all we want - it's not going to bring the house down.

Figuring out the svn was a lot simpler than figuring things out not included in BM docs =P. It was really easy actually.

Even if it is easy, the point of software and alternate coding languages (alternate to c++) I would think is for ease of use. Otherwise why in the hell would we bother?



Totally agree lol. I've learned with blitzmax that it doesn't matter what you think, they are going to do things their way (seem'ingly no way at times). Final judgement: complaining has been attempted how many times? Search through the forum...it doesn't work here.

I think the best developers here realised that a long time ago and decided to stop relying on brl and started working on their own mods and updates.

If people want stable BlitzMax updates they go to the file section download and update. Nothing has changed.

I would recomend version 1.28 as a stable platform to develop on especially at the audio and graphics driver level which have peaked nicely.

Do not use development versions of BlitzMax for your own release versions unless there is a specific fix you are dependent on.

Those prepared to learn the ropes with SVN will notch up another real world skill but need to understand the difference between release and development versions of BRL code.



MaxGUI is another can of worms. Nothing has been decided yet for dealing with loss of syncmods post 1.28 but the latest versions on SVN are looking pretty stable and represent a major "release" quality update. Hopefully it will be made available from the file download section soon, I will see what I can do.

Yes to both, as that is where I learned it,

Good to hear skid - hopefully this will satisfy those people with a legitimate reason to moan.

@Skidracer, thanks for the response and a hint that MaxGUI might be downloadable outside svn.
Personally, I'm not expecting any mind-blowing developments in Bmax so glad there are some community mods available (Skid, while you're here... any ideas or can we get a clue from Mark?)
I do worry that new users might look elsewhere if installing is a pain. We know the lure of the Dark-side is strong but if its made difficult for new programmers to install I worry about further sales (which matters to me as it gives more chance of continued support for the product).
The Blitz products, for me, were always half-way between gamemakers and 'professional' languages. Bmax seems to have moved slightly more towards the professional. That's great but is it too niche?
Still, as always, I have more than had my £60 worth from Bmax.

In my book, if I want to develop a 3D application with relative polish and ease, limited development time and effort, I would use and recommend Blitz3D over BlitzMax 1000 to 1.

That's nice. Only this thread has nothing to do with 3D.

Sorry Gfk I just went with the title of the thread.

When can we expect the "open source" announcement?

tbh I think brl has two options:
1) merge the svn into the ide so downloading is as easier as syncmods (do mingw while your at it)
2) do a website thing some where so you can download the bits

i (a complete noob) downloaded the SVN software windows binary
then installed it
then copied and pasted the SVN commandline commands into the RUN dialog on Windows XP
and it worked like a charm,

using SVN is so easy.

I actually found tortoise SVN more difficult to use because it wouldnt accept my password.

if BRL are paying attention i wouldnt advise them to change the way modules are updated at all.
Just put a message on the website saying if there is a good update available

we use SVN on a daily basis and adding a Bmax repository is no big deal.

I'd recommend anyone working in a team remotely to get their own SVN setup. Great for sharing programmer and art assets.

I first used it with one of the torque engine devs, and then we started using it with Flow. Don't know how we got by without it now :).

Where would one find the official announcement about this? Also, is this specific to a platform, or does this apply to all three?

All platforms.

Thread from Blitz Module Tweaks

http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=74439

So yes, there indeed is a sticky... In the modules forum... sigh.

One tip to BRL: Create an offical announcement forum for changes like this so at least it gets noticed, or put on the front page. Communication is vital in these situations, imo.

Given that it is publishing the availability of an "in development" version of BlitzMax modules, I thought "Module Tweaks" was a very sensible place for it to be actually.

@skidracer
Actually i quite had some issues with 1.28 in the making process on osx which i've never experienced before.

Huh. I don't think I've ever been in the Module Tweaks forum before. Anyway, I didn't see anything in that thread about subversion becoming the only way to get the updates.

If they're going to change their product in a way that is fundamental to its functionality (reliance on a third party product instead of self-contained updates) they could at least make a halfway decent announcement about it and post it somewhere that it will be noticed.

Thats a top idea. I hadn't even seen that thread in the module tweaks forum. I don't think I've ever really been in there for much.

Funny place to put it, really.

From Mark's FAQ on SVN:

So, where do you find this FAQ? It's not mentioned in the "official" thread.

I would have liked to have seen it on the front page and as a sticky in the blitz max programming, possibly generaly discussion.

I never look at module tweaks because I don't use modules, Do have a Max3D licence but don't really use it.

I would like a Ferrari

For users of Project Studio, I'm currently building in SVN support as we speak. Hopefully won't be too far away.

Shame on Mark for posting it on the "official" forums! It is also in the "official" thread.

In the official forums which not everybody visits (whether good or bad), in the Module Tweaks forum (whether the best place or not) in a post mentioning a README in a SVN directory which happens to contain an FAQ but is for Advanced Users only so people might not read. Arthur Dent's House Destruction plans were more obvious to find.
Just in case :

For the ocular challenged, the thread title was: BlitzMax now available via Subversion!

MinGW is distributed under a GPL license. Unless BRL wants to make BlitzMAX GPL, you will never see MinGW distributed with it.

AMEN

Thanks, tonyg. I never would have thought to look in the SVN directory for the document that tells me I need to use SVN. That's kind of like putting the instructions for how to open a box inside the box.

...

BRL could easily distribute MingW side a side to it. They don't include its source, they use the application so they are totally unbound to the source.
But it makes no sense to do so, the most current version is available on the page not in a fixed distribution of BRL ... :)

Just so new users aren't misled by the untrue nonsense quoted above, the official thread is specific and tells you exactly where to find the Readme for the necessary information.

The thread tells you where to find the README right before it says "NOTE: This is intended for advanced users." It doesn't mention that there's a FAQ, and it doesn't mention that it's required for everyone.

Exactly, it tells you where to find the readme BEFORE it says that it is for advanced users. That way you can read the readme and make the evaluation of whether it suits your needs or not (ie, whether you should consider yourself an advanced user).

If people would calm down, and actually read the information and tutorials posted by BRL and others, they wouldn't have a problem. Using SVN is not even remotely hard or complicated. If I can figure it out from the info on the forums anybody should be able to.

In the end, anything that makes developing and maintaining BlitzMax and MaxGUI easier on BRL is a benefit to all of the users as BRL gets to spend more time on the important things.

Duffer, you keep mentioing ease of use of SVN when many people's argument is the implementation of the change. I don't think there are many who would argue that BRL's communication skills are lacking and this is another example.

OK, Duffer, next time I will stop reading at that point, go read the readme, and then come back and continue on in the post. Good call!

For more information on reading, you can find an article here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_(activity)

NOTE: Only go read that article if you are obtuse enough to think that the argument is about how difficult SVN is to use, not the fact that its use becoming mandatory was communicated poorly.

Well I think you just defeated your point perfectly. I don't know which part of "NOTE: This is intended for advanced users." you took to mean "mandatory", but I suspect that BRLs communication skills are not the weakest link in this particular case.

I guess besides the laziness and the aversion to changes being expressed by users, we are also being led to believe that the longer you use Blitz the more IQ points and common sense you lose.

The poor communication argument does not hold any weight. I stress again, I am new to BlitzMax and I put my "skills" at mediocre. Within an hour of purchasing BM/MGUI, I had read on how to do updates, how updates were now being done via SVN and how to install and use SVN and MingW. BRL's communication about this SVN change has been VERY good, so good that a newcomer is up and running within an hour of purchasing the product. If me, a newbie can find this "supposedly hidden" info with no problem, why can't the people who have used the products for a longer time?

The only argument I am seeing here is still laziness and an aversion to change. That laziness also includes the aversion to reading official posts. Then when people can't figure things out (even though all the info is clearly spelled out on the forums) they play the blame BRL game so they won't feel foolish.

Actually, FlameDuck, I did not defeat my point. As graciously provided by Duffer above, there is this quote from the buried FAQ that says:



That sounds kind of mandatory to me, assuming I want to keep getting the latest code as I have before.

It doesn't say anything about SVN replacing installer updates though...

That's like saying "There's only one make of car on the market, assuming I want to buy a Ferrari."
If you don't like the other of option of just waiting for stable updates, then obviously, you don't have any others left. But that's nothing like saying it's mandatory.

No, it's not like that at all. It's more like I already bought the Ferrari, and if I want to continue driving it the way I did before, I now have to purchase a special funnel to get the gas into the tank. But Ferrari forgot to send out the letter telling me I need the funnel.

In this case the funnel is free, at least. :)

No, that's an accurate metaphor for the situation, and represents what you probably should have said in the first place. What you actually said is just as absurd as my metaphor.

Ah, I think I see where your confusion is coming from. I didn't intend the "keeping getting the latest code as I have before" to mean "keep getting the latest code by the same method I have before". I meant it in the sense of continuing to be able to get the latest code without waiting for the installer updates to come out.

Well syncmods just is more troublesome simply because many didn't realize that syncmod -> instable code
Now its clear: SVN are the instable code versions, noobs are not able to get it anymore -> far less flame kiddie problems anymore.

TortoiseSVN thought is idiot proof so most should be able to get it within 3 minutes again.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot. ;-)

I don't do ... but unluckily there are step by step tutorials for TortoiseSVN on how to add SVN Repo XY and how to checkout ^^

Im agreeing with GFKs original post. It is getting very confusing, it all seems to be getting very "Bitty" with too much reading/forum checking needed. I too am worried that i will end up with broken apps. Im guessing im at the latest version with 1.28 as thats what the update page on the site says. I hope the updates are/will still be published on the site as mentioned above. However, i use Maxgui, Minib3d and irrlicht.core/b3d, so will i need the SVN version or not?

Im currently finding C++/codeblocks/irrlicht easier to set up at the moment than Bmax on both OSes

!!--Not as nice and easy to code though :) --!!

But my point is the setting up is a breeze in comparison, for example:
-install c++ compiler & other pre-compile essentials.
-download needed libs (& 'make' if needed)
-install codeblocks + add paths and libs in "global compiler settings"
-Start coding.

As opposed to (this was the procedure last time i did it):
-Install Bmax
-get updates
-install another IDE & configure it to use bmax
-install c++ compiler & other pre-compile essentials.
-Hack about some code for Fasm parameters so BMAX can build large projects including itself (not sure if this is a prob on windows)
-copy contents of MinGW\libexec\gcc\mingw32\3.4.2 to MinGW\bin (when installing on vista)
-Set up the Environment and path vars for MinGW. (when installing on vista)
-install any modules / libs to fiddily folders rather than just adding a path in the ide
-rebuild above modules + docs
-start coding

How about;

- Download & install BMax binary installation file.
- Update
- Start coding

That would be nice. :)

D4NM4N: LarsG is simply describing the current situation, since you don't need MinGW, SVN or anything else if you just stick with the major releases and don't recompile anything. All the other steps are completely optional.

and meant for advanced users only (which we hopefully agree are not dumb as bread and incapable of reading even basic explanations)

unless you use MaxGUI.

I know, i was being sarcastic :P

I realise that now about the versioning, however for a while there i actually thought SVN was to be the new delivery for all of them. I am more interested in full stable updates so will always use the website (as i have always done for b3d)

However to do anything interesting with bmax involving 3D/mixed language (ie with 3rd party libs -as you do with any other general purpouse language) you do need mingw and set it up more or less as i described AFAIK.
Anyway, while an inconvenience its not exactly hard to install, none of it is really, its just getting more and more fiddily.

@dreamora, i dont mind reading at all i just prefer what im reading to be in one place.
My point was I recently found it easier and more straightforward to install C++, codeblocks and 3rd party libs than it was to install BlitzMAX with 3rd party libs.
Which you have to admit shouldnt be the case for a high level general purpouse language thats supposed to be easy to use.
I was also saying it would be nice if the information & solutions to get stuff going was in one place (ie an online manual, rather than various people's posts spread around the forums) or if it is in one place then make it more obvious where to find it on the site.

For example: why is it I ended up on the blitzcoder website to find out how to get it to run in vista? Im sure its here too somewhere but surely i should have arrived there first?

I am not moaning about the language itself though, that bit is great!!. Its just the communication, the packaging & general 'polish' like the IDE/help etc. could use some attention.

I agree that there should be a central spot for all those informations. Don't understand why the "how to" threads that were pinned in the boards were cleaned out compressing the informations into a new sticky or make the documentation searchable. (there were stickies for the information on how to install mingW, how to get it to work on Vista etc)

But still: Using MingW (-> which is only needed for external usage) or SVN is not needed for using BM the way its advertised and sold. The stable MaxGUI release as well is still handed out through syncmods.
So I see why no official support above the notes might be given as beginners will definitely assume that they can bomb the support and the boards with their questions on anything that is related to those (even if not related to BM) instead of using their brain and reading their docs + asking on their pages.
Its simpler to make it hard to use to guarantee beginners won't be able to use it than to clean the apocalypse caused by a horde of noobs incapable of behaving even like an apprentice programmer / developwer.

3rd Parties offering solutions to extend BM that need SVN or MingW should offer their own descriptions on how to use them, BM itself does not need it.

True,
However mingw is also needed for blitz's own stuff too. eg. building blitzmax, maxgui and (the un-official but 'favored') minib3d.

BMs own stuff comes precompiled, so no to use BM itself its not needed. This holds for PUB, BRL as well as the current MaxGUI modules ...

If you modify it, it isn't BMs own stuff anymore. And MiniB3D is SimonHs project, not BM / BRL. Blitz3D SDK is the "official spinoff" for B3D in BM.
Thats just to do it "precisely". You surely are right even modifying the given stuff needs MingW in some cases. Thought most modules don't need it, only those interacting with the OS/Graphics/Sound Layers directly.