HD Format War may finally be over...

Looks like HD DVD is going to be left high and dry and we will all use Blu-Ray, if this does go through it might be worth finally buying a PS3 before they put the price back up!

There is one good thing for consumers if Blu-Ray does win which is that the "Hard Coat" is mandatory on all Blu-Ray disks which means that they don't get scratched ridiculously easily like DVDs do. The "Hard Coat" was optional for DVD (and HDDVD) and so of course most companies didn't bother, at least if Blu-Ray does win the disks should be a bit more robust and last longer.

Links:

HDDVD Implodes.

Toshiba's Response

Personally I really do hope this is the end of this silly squabble that the companies should have the sense not to even start. I'm suprised nobody has come out with a universal DRM free format in the meantime but mabye I was hoping for too much.

Darkheart

And if bluray wins, my prediction I made a year ago was totally wrong! Shows what I know. :)

But don't worry about silly squabbles. We soon have something else to argue about.
Who's up for some good old science vs religion? ;)

Syance vers religun! None o dem helps mah 'tatoes!

Neither format is of any real importance, at least as carriers for purchased content. Bill Gates was right when he said that these are "the last physical media". They might get a life as backup media, but I think that both formats will simply be made obsolete by downloadable content.

Downloadable content sounds nice in theory, but if you saw the broadband situation in countries like Britain and (even worse) Australia, you'd either laugh or cry at the thought of a 10+ gigabyte download every time a single person wants to rent a movie.

I always thought Blu-Ray would win through - simply because of the name. It's something people can relate to as being 'new', rather than simply sounding like a revision of an old technology.

There's a lot of simpleton consumers out there, and I'm proud to be one too :)

Its funny that the worse format wins (feature wise the BR is still lacking behind HD DVD) ... on the other hand: it would be the first sony "driven" format not losing in the end like the MiniDisk did as well so lets recheck that situation in 3 years again ;-)

Caff: For those users, there are vinyl disks ... totally new and simple to use ^^

I just have to ask one thing, once the winner is decided (and it does indeed look like BluRay is now, THANKS A LOT WARNER BROS... /sigh), will we start see'ing a decline in prices for 'true-HD' (such a retarded marketing fad) TVs?

I mean, as much as I'd like to watch digital transfer in 1080p, I'd rather just buy a video card with an HDMI port on it to display it downscaled on my monitor, rather than purchase a $2-3k TV.

2 things from the responses:

#1) Yes there is still a need for a physical medium, HD downloadable content is not a reailty for most of the world's population and won't be for some time. Also with content taking up so much space now being able to "park" it on a single disc IS convienent.

#2) Prices will come down once they start producing in volume. Blu-Ray/HDDVD are expesnive at the moment because they ship less than 10% or the volume of DVD. Once the numbers go up the price will come down, this is just the way of things.

Darkheart

Is there a scenario where the US will chose Bluray and Europe/Asia will chose HD-DVD.

The reason I ask, is because even movies which are exclusively Bluray in the US are sold as HD-DVD in Europe, so the Bluray exclusives seem to be focused on the US and not elsewhere.

netflix rents out blu ray and HDDVD titles at no extra charge. Can have 3 at a time for as long as you like for what ammounts to 7 pounds a month.

If I had a TV that could display HD I'd probably go that route. Think both formats are too young, and I don't buy DVD's since I rarely watch the same film twice. It just isn't fun once you know the story (just like games).

I think technophiles vastly overestimates normal peoples need for HD content.

You ever think you're going to hear anyone going "Yeah, Army of Darkness is a great movie. Too bad it isn't in 1080p."? No, me neither.

Where as everyone can afford a 1080p TV and Blu-Ray player.

No it isn't. Production costs are not a factor in retail pricing. If there is no competition in the market, there is no incentive to lower prices. If the demand for a product goes up, so will the prices.

Hmm i always thought that Sony will win this just because it was advertised better, looks and sounds better and the greater installed player base due to the PS3 but it will take some further time till people really watch those movies as a) they are still too expensive compared to DVDs and b) you can't borrow them in most video libraries. And then the real competition might come from the net distributions.

I don't understand why people are upset/disappointed, even angry that one format has won over another. They both play video in HD so whats the difference/problem? Hardly something to be bothered about...

Even when download speed matches Blu-Ray, there's more developments to be made...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_Multilayer_Disc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Multilayer_Disk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein-coated_disc

I don't like this downloadable content idea, all it means is that they can sell you something with no actual product, over and over again. If i buy a film i want a physical disc i can watch whenever i choose, not whenever MS decide my license is ok and that they can be bothered to support it.

There is always option 3:
Use DVDs and lo-definition TV - or just opt out completley. I suspect many people will choose this route (at least until forced to do otherwise). Format wars and technological masturbation just alienate consumers.

I have to admit, I've watched Blu-Ray content on a large 1080p televisions and on a projector, and I couldn't really see much difference between that and a standard PAL DVD.

Just watch one of the promo DVDs they have for HD. They purpote to be showing DVD quality on the one side and HD quality on the other. The DVD side is laughably fuzzy and has artifacts all over it of course...

Beaker I think most people have been sticking with option 3 until now, if the format war is over and everyone uses Blu-Ray then it opens up the possibility of HD finally becoming mainstream.

Darkheart

todays filter devices in TV and the filter algorithms in gpus are quite good at scaling up the DVD without losing quality and make it crisp sharp ...

So the only change that the HD war isn't over in the way of : both vanish again is that they drastically get down the prices on the disks and the devices ... otherwise they might be dead before any of them started to shine.

My PS3 is happy :)

cost of producing the disc is the same as a dvd or an audio CD
once the master is made its just stamped out (and coated for bluray aparantly) in volume
its probably the same amount of plastic used

movie on HD £20
movie on DVD 3 for £20
which one do i choose?

ok im running on a monitor so would i get HD content with just the drive and bog standard gfx card?
probably not

movie studios siding with a format is almost a self fulfilling profecy
sony owns alot and they arnt going hddvd
some just picked one at random and others probably sided with the other cos it wasnt paying sony a movie competitor

edit:
im also glad for the likes of itunes and 3music (my mobiles dual music shop)
ive long seen CD singles as a rip off and a waste of plastic 3 songs @ 15 mins or 74 min album ... same production costs
download the song you want and not be saddled with 2 pants remixes youll probably never listen to and pay only for that song
before itunes the next cost efective option was to get
"now thats what i call" and other compilation CD's
after 3 singles youve spent enough for an album

no CD single = a small step in environmentalism

Well that's probably because you don't have a several hundred dollar, few months old, obsolete piece of technology. I think people have every right to be upset. Now if only a boycott of Warners Brothers movies was effective. Too bad they haven't released any movies that you absolutely must see in HD, and that you haven't already got on VHS/LaserDisc/VCD/CD-i/UMD/DVD.

Yeah like that huge collection of VHS tapes and LaserDiscs you have lying around. Oh wait.

Thankfully.

And there's a good reason for that. And it's not because i can't afford it.



Well it's their own fault for going out and buying a piece of technology that no-ones sure will be around in a years time. I don't have much sympathy for people who go out and buy new tech when it comes out. If your going to buy something at several hundred, at least, dollars or pounds, you should do some sort of research on it first.

I'm really cool with my normal cheap dvds

Despite what Flameduck (for some reason I typed Flame*uck and had to correct my typo, really, true story, I'm suprised it doesn't happen more often) HD discs will eventually come down to the same price as DVD's or so close that it won't make any difference. The acutal production costs of the disc itself is not significant you will probably start to see pricing like this for a new film:

£12.99 Blu-Ray version £9.99 DVD version most people will pay the extra for HD and eventually they will be the same price as DVD is slowly retired.

Darkheart

I seem to remember DVD's taking a long time to reach the price point they are now.

aye and ive still not seen metropolis for less than £20
a bloody old film £20
last summers blockbuster bought in the 5 for 30 virgin sale
hell it costs the same as the cinema ticket and i can watch it over and over

but metropolis and when on VHS some asain films were seen as niche markets "we wont sell many so the few we sell will cost more"
"i want to buy this film but not at £20"

You won't see my buying a hidef DVD flavor anytime soon.

The switch from VHS to DVD was massive: convenient small form factor, betting image, better sound, no rewinding, no quality degradation after repeated plays, etc.

Hi-def DVD's only offer a slightly higher image quality, which most people can't even see (no HDTV), at a significantly higher pricepoint that plain DVD's, AND at the trade-off that DVD's can be backed up / decrypted by any home PC's for easy backups while the hi-def discs can't (and the caveat that even if they are cracked, the industry have the ability to disable your player so it can't play any future releases)

BluRay may be winning from HD-DVD, but both of them will have a tough fight rooting out standard DVD's any time soon. (Not that the movie industry won't try their best, since they would like nothing better than putting the cat back in the bag when it comes to making backups of DVD's)

as bluray cam as standard for the ps3 its kinda obvious that it would have an advantage

but what if the 360 came with hddvd built in
would the 'war' be over

i know this is a purely console analogy as i cant be bothered just focusing on home entertainment (at the moment probably the only consumers are technophiles willing to shell out on the latest gadget regardless if it turns into the next v2000 or betamax)
the average punter is happy with DVD and will be for some time till they are forced to migrate
hell they only stopped selling vhs in the shops a few years ago
all vhs i had that ive now got on dvd went to a charity shop ... the others (although in storage the other side of the country) are unwatchable cos pc's dont do vhs cassette or lp's (ok you can buy usb tape and lp players)

I have a large Hi-Def Toshiba Regza telly, and we got a PS3 to use with it.

Now, within *1* week, we sold the Blu-Ray disks. The difference in quality between Blu-Ray and standard DVD is, currently, minimal. I could only tell the difference with fast movement.

For this reason, and for the reason that my PS3 has not been used once since the purchase of our new Xbox360, (all the ps3 games were sold, and I bought xbox 360 equivalents. and I left the shop with more money than I went in with..) I will be putting my 60gb PS3 on Ebay soon.

Seriously, whats with all this hi-def thing? I think the codecs need a bit of work before we see any major difference. For now my television does an absolute fantastic job upscaling a standard signal, making the ps2 and standard DVD look hi-def.

It's for perv's who watch pervy movies and like to zoom in :oP.

Now if they could only broadcast tv in current DVD quality i'd be happy :o)

what is the main error between the blue ray idea?
The BR society did a massive error at its beginning by not licensing porn studios that wanted to delivery their films on BR.

Massive error because their main target segment is 1:1 the same as the one of PS3 ...

just for that "we are god, forget it" attitude BR should die down ... The moment someone starts to handle a "meant to become common" standard like this, its better to make it vanish before it takes over and destroys everything

You're a bit of a "porn or nothing!" man, are you?

I always thought that the reason MS never went with HD for 360 was uncertainty about HD DVD and the cost of blu ray.

Today there was an article about it in gammedaily. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/microsoft-would-consider-bluray-for-xbox/19022/?biz=1

I've watched some Blu ray DVD's on my friends 52" 1080P LCD and it was a bit hit and miss and really seems to come down to the quality of each individual movie. Some of the early movies were not very good eg 5th Element looked no different to a regular DVD but that was discontinued and they released a remastered version. Some look amazing with great detail even on such a large screen. He has been more disappointed with the sound quality coming from some disks.

I'd have said it was unlikely. At the moment, BluRay:HDDVD movie sales are about 2:1 in the US and 3:1 in Europe. So, if anything, Europe are bigger fans of BluRay than the US. I have no idea about Asia, mind you.

I can remember how much others flame on me when I said that ya all will be PS3 loverz :) soon soon

I think Xlsior's points are very valid and for those reasons I would expect HD to be much slower to be adopted than DVD. However I do think the companies will force it thorugh in the end by bringing the price down and availability up once there is one format. For compatibility most HD movies now arn't _THAT_ high def, so that they work with most drives and TV's.

Once they start churning out movies at 1080P resolution YOU WILL notice the difference vs PAL/NTSC or current DVDs and if the price difference is only a small amount (20-30%) most people will pay the extra.

I agree a lot of people don't have HD TV's now (I don't) but over the next few years it will become standard and I doubt you will be able to buy anything else fairly soon.

Darkheart

You will only see the difference if you also have an HDTV, *and* if you have it hooked up properly with HDMI. The vast majority of people still have SDTV, and will have absolutely no visual advantage of high-def...

Of course, it's only going to be a matter of time... But barring a complete abandonment of DVD in favor of hi-def, I expect it to take a lot longer for the HD discs to get the market penetration that normal DVD currently enjoys, simply because DVD is 'good enough' for most people.

I'm sure that at some point the movie publishers will consider heading down this route. i.e. publish movies only on BlueRay, or at least the "big" releases, and/or introduce longish lead times before it gets to DVD. Sony might well lead, the others will lag behind. It's not going to happen right now as there isn't enough HD being purchased to be able to lose the normal DVD sales.

Isn't everyone?

Who cares? It's not like 99% of the big releases are worth owning anyway. Just watch them in the cinema, and don't worry about it.

How do these new media HD and BR compare to superbit DVD? Note that I haven't ever seen any of these 3. :P

> Who cares? It's not like 99% of the big releases are worth owning anyway. Just watch them in the cinema, and don't worry about it.

Going to see it at the cinema ( would still) cost more then buying the disk though. With the extra hassle of putting up with everyone else at the theater (is it me, or are people getting more rude as time goes on).

I'd agree not to buy the disks though, just rent them.

DVD will eventually be replaced with hidef, as soon as the players are cheap enough a standalone DVD without blueray will not be produced any longer (or very very few). Once this happens DVD movie selection will start to dwindle.

ive got an unlimited card for cineworld (uk) only £12 a month and basically i could see every film on offer on any given day and more than pay for it (3 films a month to break even)

ok some months ive only seen one film if that.
but if i miss a film i know it will be in the 5 for £30 sale within 6 months
missed sunshine and 28 weeks later
paid about the same as i would have without my unlimited card

true about the other audience members
the haunting of emily rose had 3 americans talking about something in the row behind me
just cos it was a friday night and the theatre was nigh on empty dont mean you get free run of the film

the times ive been tempted to kill people with their popcorn

and during saw 4 i could on the quiet parts just about hear this unending chatter by 5 girls and a guy who got up midway through the film and took an age to get the fuck out of my way so i could see the film

as for renting how much is it?
cos as you can eventually buy a film for £5 im not paying too much just to borrow it ... ill just wait for it to hit the sales

They wipe the floor with it. "superbit" DVDs are just regular DVDs encoded at a high bit-rate Superbit DVDs might display less compression artifacts than regular DVDs, but they are still limited to DVD resolutions and disk space restrictions. The "superbit" monicker is little more than a marketing slogan.

> ive got an unlimited card for cineworld (uk) only £12 a month

I've got 2 kids, add in the wife and the cinema costs $36 ($9 each) a pop for us (no monthly tickets available here either).

Renting is the way to go though, $4.99 for an HD rental from the cable company and we can all watch it. With a few exceptions of course (Star Trek, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Serenity)

HDTV's are getting a lot cheaper now too. I've been tempted all through the holidays but have debts to pay. However, prices at my local store have been very tempting:

SAMSUNG LNT4061 40" 1080P LCD HDTV $1199
SAMSUNG LNT4661 46" 1080P LCD HDTV $1599




Why are they so cheap? is it the 16bit processing or something?

I use Amazon's DVD rental £9.99 a month for 5 disks a month and I can have 3 at any one time, IMHO this by far the most econoical way to watch films particularly if you have a family (there are 4 in mine). Usually the kids have 2 choices, I have two choices and my wife has 1 (she doesn't watch movies much) and it works really well. Amazon also let's you have Blu-Ray movies if you want them and they simply count as one disk.

So that works out at £10 a month for all of us (if we want to) to watch 5 films a month usually ~ 3 months after they come out from the cinema.

Considering you could use stuff like DVDFAB HD Decrypter and Nero (or just buy DVDFAB Platinum) to copy anything you want to keep it's almost perfect (of course you wouldn't to do anything like that as it would be illegal, think of the poor studios people, and all those hard working film industry executives).

Darkheart

16Bit color processing is actually more than you have in your screen where you can be happy if you have full 8 bit because common TFTs only are capable of representing 6bit color anyway (good ones 8 and baaadly expensive stuff 10-12bit), so you surely don't have to care for it.

Its just a different name to tell you that they put something in for "super crystal clear colors"

and why are they so cheap: Samsung and LG are the only panel producers world wide (was the second samsung? I think so but I'm sure that LG is the other one) so they have some "fallback" to make it cheaper.

Sadly Samsung lacks at creating usefull digital filter chips ... even dell had better ones in their TFT screens years ago at least when compared to some of their TV screens.

Anychance that when HDTVs become the standard (by the mass majority) that it'll be the death of NTSC/PAL?

> Anychance that when HDTVs become the standard

That's going to happen in the US in february, unless they pass another law extending the deadline.

Does HDTV still have the issue with PAL / NTSC?

Heh, my wife works for the deparment of health here in CA, and $3bn of their budget over 3-5 years was cut so that everyone in CA could get a free converter that lets them watch HD signal on a regular NTSC screen if they want one!!.

Pretty crazy really.

Thanks for explaining the 16bit thing. Thats pretty cool.