Clones rule and the King is hidden object

...in case you didn't know that already.

This has some good points:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16426

and is by someone with real data to back it up.

match-3 is declining and hidden object is king. That's if you want to make money. If you "innovate" there is a very rare chance you may succeed and make lots of money, but it's very unlikely. That's why people (inc. me) choose the safe path of cloning when it pays their bills. If you are doing it for fun cos you have another job or are a student, then heck, sure make what you feel like! :-)

It's a bit out of date, isn't it? Match3 has been in decline for a good six to nine months, and Hidden Object games have been occupying large parts of the charts for about the same length of time. I'd be extremely wary about starting a hidden object game now, as the market has been saturated for six months, so it's only a matter of time until the bottom drops out of that too.

My "step-son" really loves the tower defence games. He's 10 years old.

How does this cloning go legally as far as old arcade games are concerned? Is it allowed? do they come down on you like a ton of bricks? Is a clone of a clone breaking anyones copyright?

its hard to say as nigh on everyone has done pac man and tetris these days

when no one makes money out of it they may turn a blind eye

but as gridwars goes no one can make a vektor glowing like minter shooting like robotron game and not get their lawyers (or even microsofts) breaking down their necks with cease and disists

Well I know that but some others may not (the ones making match-3 games).

Yeah, I partially agree. Depends how long it would take really. 3 months, unique theme, think you can stand out, go for it. 6 months, same as all the rest, forget it (maybe...you'll still make more sales than if you make a match-3 or a "unique" game). Of course the franchises will keep on going (MCF etc) as they are big (massive) now.

This from the same people who complain that graphically advanced games lack originality, and that they are somehow "keeping it real" with their low-quality knockoffs.

Leadworks: please elaborate as I'm not really following you, sorry.

Graphically advanced games may or may not be original, and may or may not be fun. Knock off games are obviously not original but can be fun and graphically advanced.

I was talking to my partner, Helen, tonight about the two opposing camps of indie developers. There's the cloners who seem to be in it for the money and the idealists who are doing it for art of whatever. She pointed out that if you make a clone, and you enjoy making it and people enjoy playing it, then what's the problem? You've delivered value and made money from it, fine. If people sit around criticising cloners and say they'd never lower themselves to such a thing and then never actually produce anything, then it's just all about their ego - they aren't delivering any value anywhere. If you manage to combine "high ideals" AND you make a game, then even better, good for you - but don't expect it to sell unless you are delivering what a large number of people like (to spend money on) and not just what you like. Of course you can always release it for free so your work is out there - but these days it takes a really large effort to finish a decent game so you'd have to be ultra dedicated to do it just for fun; and whereas a lot of us might like to think we are dedicated enough to do that, the obvious reality is that we are not. Shame, but there you go.

In fact in order to compete, one could argue that knock off games NEED to be graphically advanced, in order to successfully compete. I mean what other value do they have?

yes that's true, they do need to be prett well polished. The other value is making sure they play smoothly and well and so are FUN + if the graphical theme can be slightly "new" but not "way out there" then all the better.

We have enough Match3, Zuma, Hidden, BreakOut, and, oh yes, DinerDash.....

Who's "we"? Programmers and male action game fans? Clearly the booming casual game market's customers haven't had enough. Oh, I still like Breakout (if done well) 24 years after playing my first one, and shooters, and platform games, and FPS games and RPGs :-)

wouldnt some clone have copyright issues? If memory serve, I think pong is copyrighted by atari. Or something along those lines. Wouldnt that be a problem too?

"Partner"? Are you a lesbian?

lol

I'm supposed to say "I wish" aren't I? ;-) It's one of those tricky "what term do I use" situations. I figured if I didn't say "Helen", you'd think a) I was gay or b) it was my business partner. Basically "girlfriend" is accurate but I've also lived with her for 9 years and she is the mother of my two sons, but we are not married so "girlfriend" sounds a little informal, possibly even temporary. In fact imagine we were both 60, would "girlfriend" sound right then? Partner would be more accurate right? I could have said "common-law wife" but how weird would that sound?

Anyway I asked: please elaborate as I'm not really following you, sorry.

As in who are "the same people" who you seem to think are hypocrites? :-)

Call her your live-in lover.

wowzer, I'd maybe have to check with her first ;-)
I could call her "Player 2"

Couldn't you just say something like significant other or lover? I mean, it's not terribly complex after 9 years. Now in my case, coming up with the right term is just downright mind-bending. O_o

"my right hand" springs to mind... ;)

If only it was that easy.

Oh, I see. Why aren't you married?

lol ...
Player 2 ... welcome to the world of love of gamers ^^

Naw would definitely use partner or significant other as well (its the translation of the german word "Lebensgefährte" which in a word by word translation would be something like companion for life and is used to make clear that she is "your wife" / "your husband" without beeing married ie that you are sharing your lifes)

Wow I actually agree with you GA! Yep, I have my main job to pay bills etc etc, so I have the freedom to innovate (and not actually ever finish a game!).

Realistically, coding is more of a hobby in my case. Although I really would like to earn an income from it, I'm counting more on my retirement accounts and investments for that. On another note, I'm deploying for 1 year overseas in 2 months by myself (can't take the family). So I'll have unlimited time to actually finish a game (or 2!). I really would like to complete my Orbicus game and the flight sim.

So is anyone writing a Hidden Object engine yet?

Bah GA! I agreed until I read your following post.

And clones may or may not be fun. You're implying that all knock off games are fun which is a fallacy.

As long as the game isn't a total rip-off and it's of great quality, then there isn't a problem. It's the people who clone a game in a month and it's horrible, those people are the problem.

Yeah that's the goal.

You really push the "never actually produce anthing" angle really hard. As I've said before, I'd rather not finish anything than finish a crappy clone game and saturate the indie market with more rubbish. You're not doing this so you really don't have to push that angle. But by doing that, you're basically saying, if you haven't finished a game then you're full of $hit and I won't listen to you. I personally wouldn't alienate yourself from people just because they haven't finished a game. It's like a bad form of stereo-typing/racism.

Your path and ideas aren't the sure-fire formula for success. Some people make innovative games and do just fine. Relax and try not to act like a know-it-all or put yourself up on a pedestal. It's very distasteful imo.

There you go again with the "you're not as dedicated as me and you won't finish your game" stuff. And yes we know it's all about polish. Not everyone is on the cloner path that you are.

Let people co-exist with you. Just some advice.

Sigh, do you enjoy arguing? Everything I write you choose to interpret in a certain negative way that suits your position and allows you to attack me - does that make you feel good?

Let me explain a little and perhaps you'll be able to reevaluate:

No I'm not, I'd be an idiot to assert that. If I didn't word that sentence exactly right then I'm sorry.

As I stated, this was something that my significant other half came up with on her own - however there is an element of truth to it because some people are anti ALL clones whereas others, like you, seem to take a sensible middle ground which is anti crap quality clones. The only thing I'd add is that in order for people how to learn how to make a good clone, they might have to go through the crap clone stage first, make sense?

I'm not saying that. Please don't put words into my mouth and I won't do it to you, it's rude and not conducive to a good natured discussion. I won't alienate anyone who is nice, but I will alienate people who are negative due to their own agendas interfering or whatever.

I agree anyway that I'd be a fool to discount the opinions of someone who hasn't finished a game BUT, and this is a big BUT, there ARE a lot of people who do talk rubbish - both here and on Indiegamer which has now set up a private forum for people who have finished a game. However, just because people have finished a game, it certainly doesn't stop them from talking rubbish either...

Delivering crap clones certainly isn't a path for success, but delivering good ones is certainly ONE path towards success. In business it's all about delivering value, if you can deliver a GOOD clone to the correct audience you will make money, it's that simple - however making a good clone isn't easy. ANOTHER path to success is making an innovative game as you've said, but again it MUST deliver value to the correct market otherwise it's a dead duck. I'm suggesting that the innovative path to success is most-likely very difficult, although no doubt extremely rewarding if you make it.

Actually it's this kind of non-constructive comment which *I* find distasteful. Who said I know it all? I never did. Everything I've said is my own opinion based on my own experience, take it or leave it but please don't accuse me of being a know it all or tell me to relax.

There you go again putting words in my mouth. Turn it round and make out like I'm an a-hole, gee thanks man. Is it a fact that most people will not finish a game? Yes. Is it a fact that you need to be dedicated to finish a game? Yes. Where did I make a comparison to me? I didn't.

You would do well to heed your own advice.

You know nearly every week I get an email from someone thanking me for my framework, or my blog, or my games. People have often said that I have inspired them to take up an Indie career. I'm REALLY flattered with this and think that they give me too much credit - I certainly won't let it go to my head though. On the other hand there are the odd few people who seem to want to view me and my creations in a certain negative way for whatever their own reasons. I suggest that these people actually look inside themselves first before pointing the finger elsewhere and look to see if there is anything amiss that can be improved.

I hope that my post has helped to clarify things for you.

I'm just pointing out my observations, which you don't seem to be taking well. :\

Btw, the following statements are NOT bashing:

We all realize you're all about the business. Some people here are just hobby coders and some are trying to do what you are doing. Everyone can co-exist.

Your framework is mostly from the archives and from the help of other seasoned veteran coders here. Without them and the archives, your framework wouldn't exist. To claim otherwise is ludicrous. But the main point here is that a lot of those helpful coders have never finished a game. Therefore, be respectful of them by not bashing people who have never finished a game.

Maybe in all your 'success' you've forgotten how to treat people or maybe you just don't realize that you're belittling people and/or projecting yourself in a father-knows-best idiom. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and remember where you where 3 years ago. Keep your feet on the ground bro.

Hopefully you'll read the above and let it sink in before you fly off the handle again and go defensive. /shrug

That's practically slander. Have you actually seen my framework? 99% of it is types and functions I've made myself to help create a game with, 1% is from the forums and the kind help of other people whom I'm very grateful towards. Don't forget all the BlizMax bugs I've found that BRL have now fixed for everyone to benefit from.

I say again, don't put words in my mouth. When have I been bashing people who haven't finished a game? How about you be respectful by not inventing crap and then spouting it every chance you get. I was a hobbyist game programmer for 22 years before I released my first commercial game. There is totally nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, it's brilliant fun without the pressure to earn money.

1% archives and help from the forum coders?!? Keep telling yourself that...

I've put no words in your mouth nor have I invented anything. I've just based my opinion from your actions and statements. And, you are bashing people who haven't finished a game by your general statements. You're not naming anyone specifically. But this line:
You apparently are able to finish a game so clearly you're not refering to yourself. You're refering to everyone who hasn't finished a game. Which is probably most of BRL customers. Nice move. But seriously, lay off people who haven't finished a game. Personally I don't care but there's some out there that do.

Anyways, I can tell this is pointless and you're not listening because you've already adopted the 'holier-than-thou' attitude from getting a couple of your games on the portals.

I can't access www.zamagames.com ???


Most games are written by using other peoples code for thing. If I read a book on programming then write a game, am I just ripping off the book?

The code archives are there for anyone to take ideas from, expand on them, then release a game based on those ideas. It's not copying.

Wow! This thread got derailed Big Time.

@andy: My site is in limbo for the next several months. And no, if you read a book on programming and write a game, then you're not ripping off the book illegally...you're ripping if off legally.

Yes, the code archives are public domain and free to use. But it's legal copying. =p

And, to get back on TOPIC:

So if Match3 is outdated and Hidden Object is fading, what do you think the next big clone fad will be?

Actually, you didn't quote his entire statement and got the meaning slightly incorrect. Looking at the entire statement, he wasn't talking about people being unable to finish ANY game, he was talking about people being unable to finish a large game in their free time without monetary compensation. Thus he was in fact including himself in the criticism:



This is an example of what he's getting at when he says you are choosing to interpret his statements negatively.

Well he's made similar statements in the past. And when you get labeled I guess it's hard to change the impression people have of you. But seriously let's drop it. This is just wasting bandwidth.

Manhunt 2 clones, mine's webcam based!

That, literally, is the million dollar question! Unfortunately I've got no idea.

GA, do you think you'll make a six-figure income over the next year?

Despite the perceived madness in this post, you're actually motivating me to finish my game. I know I have the coding and art skills. What I lack is focus. I honestly think that once I get to Korea in a couple months that I'll be able to focus on something like this and see it through to a finished product.

WTF? Why di my last post go in before the post I was replying to?

Yeah in pence. Seriously though, I know I'll make more money next year than this year. It's *highly* likely that a game I make will generate $1,000,000 in revenue, but I won't see all of that.

Hey I just got offered a job by Real Networks (the biggest online games company, I think Big Fish Games is like the second) to make some license games for Mattel and Hasbro, but I said no.