Synth keyboards?

Hey everyone, i'm looking for a synthesiser keyboard. I don't know too much about them however. My mate a while back had one, and he could play electric guitar and violin and such, just by playing the notes on the keyboard.

Firstly, i assume it's a synth keyboard i'm after?

If so,

Yamaha PSR E403-K Keyboard

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0660323/Trail/searchtext%3EKEYBOARD+YAMAHA.htm#tab3

Would this be of use to me? £200 is the most i'd be willing to pay for one. Any help would be appreciated, as, as i say, i don't know much about them, only what they can do (well, some of what they can do :D )

Just get yourself the cheapest one with a Midi interface. Then you can plug it into your computer and make it sound like anything you want :)

I would strongly recommend that you go for a professional synth, something like the Roland Juno-D if you could stretch to £319
http://www.dv247.com/invt/24460/ the sound quality of this synth is excellent.

You will however also need some sequencing software whereas the yamaha has a built in sequencer for recording and editing your compositions.

It really depends on where you are going with it but the Juno-D is something you might start to build a recording studio on and the Yamaha might be something you would want to replace after a while.

Having owned many synths and keyboards over the years I have only just got my studio how I always wanted it.

If I were you I would try and demo the keyboards before deciding, sound quality is often subjective to the listener.

And as boomboom says, you might want to go down the route of a midi controller ( just a keyboard that makes no noise ) and software synths running on your PC.

Hmmm, interesting. I really don't know what i'm after tbh.

When you say sequencing software, what do you mean? I have a copy of Cool Edit Pro 2. It records sound from the mic, works in multitrack mode, applies effects to tracks... etc.

I really am stuck here. What i'm after really, is something i can use to play a range of instruments, to add to the music i record with my acoustic guitar. Electric guitar, drums, violins... etc etc

What would you say are the main differences between the 2 keyboards? Thanks for your help so far chaps :o)

I'd go for the cheapest keyboard with MIDI imaginable, and let the PC do all the sound work. I've a rack o' modules, and a bunch o' keyboard-synths (including a mighty JD800), all doing nothing since a year. 'Everything in the box' is my motto. One keyboard I use frequently is my VMK-88 masterkeyboard, with 8 octaves, I use it to control my PC.. :P Seriously, a supermarket PC outrules all my combined hardware synths (and 2-meter mixing console) by a mile.

Maybe you should take a look at the microKorg?
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/3432

I would agree with CS_TBL - don't spend money on a hardware synth - get a good midi controller keyboard and use virtual instruments. A midi controller keyboard doesn't have any sounds itself - it just sends midi information. There are many virtual instruments out there from the free/cheap to the more expensive like Steinbergs Virtual Guitarist 2,Virtual Pianist, Virtual Bassist and Groove Agent 3 for drums.
http://www.steinberg.net/157_1.html
Another route could be using an application like "Band In a Box" by PG Music that can generate backing tracks in many different styles to your own chord progressions (you can also create your own styles - all you then have to do is add your acoustic guitar and vocals etc. (No keyboard required)
http://www.pgmusic.com/

CS_TBL- still got the supernova? *Cygnus needs supernova badly*

I can vote for the "Midi controler attached to PC" option but make sure you have got a good system- a bad chipset or soundcard will end up with a latency between keypresses and the sound coming out the speakers.

Selecting these components seems to be quite difficult because even "brand named" equipment sometimes has latency.

With this in mind, I would also like to ask- What system would you all reccomend for audio?

My current one has a latency of 8ms but my old celeron 1.2 had a latency of 2ms! 8ms is enough to notice.

Still got all the synths, actually I sampled some stuff from the SN2r last week, to be used as samples in Halion.. may sound odd, but consider this: SN2r: 24 voices and the hastle of having to wire it up, A/D sampling noise, etc. And now in the form of samples: 256 voices (or something :P) ability to run it through every DSP I want, saved with the song project, and even able to introduce sampler-artifacts such as pitching samples (which can sometimes be practical). Also consider this: an 8-part voice on the SN2r takes 1 voices, on a polyphony of 24 that equals 3 voices to play with. A sampled version doesn't have this issue anymore.

Furthermore: hardware FM synths are 100% obsolete, FM8 is just so much more practical regarding editing and functionality.

As for the ideal system: more CPU = more voices/DSP's. More mem = more samples, faster HD = more streaming samples, bigger HD = more space to store samples. So, there's really not much to tell here, except: "more is simply more".

Sequencing software is something that can record midi data and audio so that you can then edit it afterwards.

For example you might want to change/delete notes that you played or alter the tempo etc.

I would say the main difference between the keyboards will be sound quality and the extent to which you can alter the sound.Plus the Juno has twice the poly, you can have twice the number of sounds at any one time.

Some people prefer software synths others prefer hardware synths, I own two hardware synths (Roland Fantom XR and V-Synth GT) and prefer them to software but I have been thinking of getting a software drum solution like Battery3.

@CS_TBL I use a Layla3G with typical latency of around 6ms for audio and 0.5ms for midi.

Interesting. whilst more is better, I also found the bus latency played a big role in output latency. I would idealy want a super-efficient motherboard and a good, low latency sound card. I am using my laptop at the moment, does what I need but the latency is stopping any live performances.


I use FLStudio after many years of trying the other options, and they were all too clunky, though FL is probably just as bad now as it has evolved. I can say that it is quick though. I tried Orion pro a while back and found it to be way more slow than FL.

Wonder how much a supernova II costs these days, would really love to get one. I don't understand why they stopped making them.

They somehow focused on the KS series, even if it was inferior to the SN series. Silly..

As for the availability of the SN2. I dunno, I always believed the SN2 was really a professional all-round synth, rather than just a mere techno/dance/house machine (like *lots* of other synths from that era). I estimate many SN2's ended up in serious/all-round studios, and I estimate those ppl won't be selling it much as the synth is so all-round it won't become obsolete much and it's still in daily use.

That said: On Ebay

Ross, I have a M-Audio Keystation e49 USB plugged into my Mac and use ith with Logic Express 8 and Propellerhead Reason 4.

Windows XP also identified it immediately (but I'm not using it there, so I don't know if it works).

As the name says, this is -not- a MIDI keyboard in the original sense; it connects via USB, so you probably won't be able to use it with a real hardware expander or other hardware that traditionally uses MIDI. But it works nicely with music software and is a good product for the price.

Thanks guys :o) So, i'm stuck between a hardware synth or using software stuff. TBH, i'd rather have the hardware synth, as i would want to be able to play stuff directly from it, such as live stuff, without taking a computer with me. Plus the latency issue might be a pain too. I don't have a very good sound card (onboard), and my motherboard is pretty cheap too, so i dopn't expect it would be a speedy one.

Maybe a mixture of both? Hardware synth with the option of using midi output?

200 pounds doesn't get you very far tho. It depends whether such a synth will be your only synth or whether it's just an ingredient in a whole array of synths. For all-round usage, an all-round "bread 'n butter" synth is preferred. You could obtain a JV1080 very cheap these days. A friend of mine got one for roughly €200. Still, it's a module, so you're left with keys. What is really the uber-maximum budget you can stretch yourself to?

I had one of those and took it back within a week, it had stuck notes!

Ross C, download the fruityloops demo, and see how low you can get the latency with a few heavy CPU synths loaded. Fruityloops uses ASIO and even comes with ASIO4ALL which is really quite handy.

Thats the best way to see how your system will fare since price doesnt necesarily equal latency.

yea, just get yourself a cheap keyboard with midi output. It will have onboard stuff as well as able to use it for software stuff.

Unless you have mega bucks all the synths on keyboards are software anyway, just programmed into small chips and uneditable.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5400526/Trail/searchtext%3EKEYBOARD.htm done

Thanks guys, that looks good to me :o) Really appreciate your help with this!

You will probably need to get one of these if you have just onboard sound http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-MIDI-INTERFACE-CONNECT-CABLE-FOR-KEYBOARD-TO-PC_W0QQitemZ120192220595QQihZ002QQcategoryZ123445QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

tbh its probably best keeping this as cheap as possible until you get a hang of it and know its what you want to spend alot of money on.

Thanks man, your right. I don't want to get lots of expensive stuff, if i've never used anything like this before.

CS-TBL, £200 is the maximum i think. As boomboom says, would be nice to get to grips with whats what first, plus money would only stretch to £200.

On the plus side, i now don't have to wait to get a semi acoustic guitar. Result!

Cheers Guys. I'll check out that cable boomboom. Might consider getting a cheap sound card if they are better than onboard.

What do you's reckon?

My keyboard cost £99 and has velocity and aftertouch (49 keys).
Dumb keyboards are pretty cheap and its amazing what can be done in software now.

Any of you having trouble with latency, be sure to try the ASIO4ALL universal ASIO driver mentioned by Cygnus above. It worked wonders for me.

http://www.asio4all.com/

Ok thanks man. I'm sure i used to have that somewhere, but didn't need it. I'll grqab that just now. Why does it reduce latency btw?

I use Creative's X-Fi ASIO drivers in FL Studio. Are the ASIO4All drivers beter than Creative's efforts? I'm really tempted to get myself a MIDI controller for FL Studio now. Great thread...

Hey Ross, spend a little extra money beyond the M-Audio 49, I've got myself an M-Audio Oxygen 49, which is bad ass for about $150 in total. :)

The way to reduce latency is to lower the size of the ASIO buffer.

The only problem is that if your CPU can't keep up then you will get clicks and pops and drop outs in the audio.

Ideally you want a separate partition or hard disk to load another OS onto. Install your music recording software and nothing else so that the CPU is as lightly loaded as possible.

I just got my latency down from 6ms to 2.5ms by reducing the buffer size to 64 from 256...will have to see if there are any consequences though ;)

What the difference Zen? Thanks shambler!

I have found creatives ASIO drivers to be unstable, however, if they were as bad for everyone as they were for me, i'm sure they would have improved them.

All in all, ASIO4ALL I would imagine would be the best for performance on non-ASIO cards. if you have ASIO drivers for your card, try those first.

I found creatives asio to be very slow, Asio4all leaves them standing.

Thanks - I'll give ASIO4All a try.

Also, would a 25 key controller suffice for everyday use? I'm looking at the M-Audio Oxygen 8 V2.

Totally depends on your instruments/style/needs.

For ages I've been using typical 5-oct synths, but ever since I've been using an 8-oct masterkeyboard I'd never want to go back to 5 octaves again. So convenient for pianos and large drumkits, other instruments that feature "largeness" :P are harps and a full section of strings.

Now, you may not need those large instruments, but even synth voices could demand some range. The only question you need to ask yourself is: "what range do I need?"

These things are awesome:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMEZAG

Ross, the truth is that it looks cool as heck from the outside but once you start rounding up what you need for even a small PC-based studio it gets rough. Like they said, latency becomes an issue, what cables to buy, what sound card to buy, decent speakers, a place to put your keyboard, etc. Actually, run out and buy a Roland V-Synth or a JP8000 and have it shipped to me ;).

You really should consider purchasing a standalone synth with MIDI outs like the one in your original post. Don't take the PC route unless you're completely sure you'll utilize it. I have a decent studio going and have been doing MIDI/VST/DXi/Guitar crap for years so if you go that route hit me up. I'm currently using an M-Audio Keystation 61es for a basic MIDI controller.

You should already have my email addy :).

I'm not sure i'll utilise it :o) I only really need guitars/violins, piano's, perhaps some stringed instruments. Do you have MSN, or are you on IRC?

@CS_TBL:

I'm pretty new to it all - I've just started with FL Studio. I used to use Trackers on the Amiga, but I've done nothing for ages.

I don't want anything that takes up too much desk space, and I assume the octaves can be shifted about? I guess I'd use it to simply come up with tunes and bass lines etc.

BTW: Using ASIO4All my X-Fi card happily works with a latency of at least 2ms! Thanks for the tips.

As for tracking, go here. I'm using this one these days. Nice stuff if you're used to the traditional IT interface. Has its own sample player, but you can also control VSTi's.

Twisty Knobs! Sliders! Buttons! All that fun stuff you can use in software synths :D

Nice! What spec is your system?

Would like to point out what I mean here :-) The same sound card that gave me 2ms in an OLD system could only reach 15ms in a new system. That blew my mind a bit at first until I realised it was bus latency- Crap motherboard.

My current spec is a half-decent laptop, but worried about buying PCMCIA cards as I dont trust it'll help my latency.

Current system: Intel core duo 1.83ghz, 1gb Ram, Hi-def Connexant Waikiki sound. Latency: 5-8ms.

For midi on a PC i would recommend a good controler keyboard from M-audio, Novation or Alesis. If your not looking for portable get a PCI soundcard like a audiophile from m-audio. theres alot of USB/firwire low latency devices out there but there true latency is not as good as pci. most of them have internal buffers that stop pops and crackle but add a few ms to your final latency. I have an audiophile in my second pc its old but has rock solid drivers.

If your pressed for space something like the M-Audio KEYSTUDIO 49I would be a good choice. I havent had first hand experience with it but by the spec it seams like you get alot for your money. It does midi audio and has lots of keys. I used to work for Yamaha and i love there pro end stuff but the PSR range is not what you want to be looking at.

keystudio 49I. read some reviews see what the drivers are like first.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/KeyStudio49i-main.html

Milky Joe:
What asio4all settings are you using to get it down to 2ms? I cant get under 8ms with my x-fi card.

Make sure you've set your card to "Audio Mode". The other modes seem to add latency. I also enabled hardware buffering in the ASIO4All control panel.

Also, make sure you enable bit-matched recording and playback. I found this tip on one of the ASIO forums somewhere.

My system spec:

Core 2 Duo 2.4Ghz (o/c 2.8Ghz).
EVGA 680i Motherboard.
2Gb SLI RAM.
Creative X-Fi Gamer.
ATI X1900XT 512Mb.

Decreasing the size of the ASIO buffer is the way to reduce latency BUT you may get drop outs in the sound.

Also soundblaster cards are not considered ideal for music production on PC, best go for firewire brands such as proteus/rme/emu/audiophile etc. for the best performance.

Internal pci cards if you can but you can get quite good latencys with usb or firewire just not quite as good even if they do quote 2ms or zero latency on the specs. If you get a device with zero latency hardware monitoring it will be perfectly useable. the only thing to watch out for is some of the better usb/firewire audio interfaces have quite bad midi that can lag quite badly. its a bit of a mine field. if you just want cd 44.1 recording go for an older card with good drivers and you at least know what your getting.

Best card I've ever had, an Aureon Fun.It was meant for home use but it just worked so damn well!