Minter Gives In

http://www.developmag.com/news/28844/Jeff-Minter-disappointed-by-poor-Space-Giraffe-sales

**Don't go OTT and get this thread locked/deleted. Anyway discuss...

Mmm, his comments seem somewhat deluded.



Where is "GfK"? "Minter" is asking for it.

Have him!

Oh, my god!!!

I just looked at some screenshots of 'Space Giraffe'

Unbelievable swearing in it - I won't even post any links - I am shocked at the on-screen swearing - shocked!

Mother!!!

This from the guy who wrote Llamatron? Besides, isn't Space Giraffe just a remake of an old (1980's) shite arcade game (Tempest)? Much like say Tempest 2000 or Tempest 3000 (also by Minter)?

Sorry for trying to beat a dead horse for the better part of 25 years more like it.

well... it probably doesn't help that the game looks like someone puked a rainbow of skittles on the screenshots.

What a foul-mouthed Scrote.

Those will be the shots used to dissuade charlatans from hot-linking. There's no swearing in the actual game -- do you think Microsoft is mental?

Yep.

Totally agree with FlameDuck.

Actually I'm just thinking back to that Ballmer video and, yes, mental.

Anyone see the validity of putting such swearing into screenshots to prevent hot-linking? I don't.

I think there was some sort of story about some dude doing something or other to offend Jeff and having some swearies appearing on the hot-linked piccies on this dude's site was some sort of retaliatory joke.

Something like that.

GridRunner++ does swear at you, though, although to be fair *you* probably swear at *it* too.

I found this:


Seems like someone was trying to hype up a game to hopefully sell it.

That makes no sense -- devs and publishers kill for coverage at news-stand (do you think Microsoft is mental? etc)

I prefer my barely-remembered half-explanation. It's sufficiently fuzzy so as to be irrefutable.

He's been told. He cant refuse to dilute his game vision then complain when sales are poor,write games others want to play...not you.

Space Giraffe?! :/

I think the comments on that news page sum things up pretty well.

And threatening to take yer ball home because no-one wants to play with you is a bit childish, IMO.

I found "Minter's" blog - he put the swearing in.



He put it in pre-release. It was in there in development.

He then posted the pictures - knowing they would spread.

I will speak with his parents.

Erm, just had a look at Space Giraffe - it IS just a re-hash of Tempest, but with too many FX to see what the heck is actaully going on. :/

If he wanted to make money he should have made 'remakes of old, shite arcade games'.

You can never complain that your game doesn't sell, if you didn't do your research before hand and found out what people want then its his own fualt.

You'd better speak with mine while you're at it then. My source code is filled with the most foul language, some of it to remind me not to do something, some to chastize myself for previous mistakes, and some to blow off steam about other people's bugs and mistakes.

Every time I release a new update to the source to the TV module, I have a quick panic and go looking to make sure I removed my filth. Not that I imagine I would offend anyone these days, but it would still be rather rude to send it out to people like that.

Tempest is OK but it get's boring quickly.

lol, from his second post

"and I don't give a rat's arse if you don't like my games; they aren't made for you anyway"

Thats quite a hypocritical statement, declaring his games arn't for 'the people', then complaing 'the people' don't buy his games.

His like an aging pop diva, throwing his toys out of the pram because everyones tired of there old formula.

People on xbox live style places either want to play cheap mini retro games or more intresting, more 'clever' games. Look at Portal, Little Big World...

Still, I wouldn't mind having a go on this 'Space Giraffe' thing.

Is there a PC demo?

Every genre has it's donkeys. I think we are at the point that graphically game designers can achieve their vision. Now if only they could achieve compelling, entertaining game play that matched the current gen technical prowess.

Allan

Even though I always appreciated the extremely well calibrated and frantic gameplay he offers, Minter's comment does seem out of place with a game like Space Giraffe... since it actually is what he is insulting, the only difference being he considers Frogger a worst arcade classic than Tempest. :)

I didn't play Space Giraffe but played through most of his classics and went through a 10 minutes video from YouTube and... not only it clearly resembles Tempest, but even reuses some of the Tempest 2000 samples (such as the "superzapper recharge" voice). Camera movement, the shape of the 'giraffe', transitions between levels, enemy movement and enemy shapes all are Tempest 2000 alike. It may have significant gameplay differences (as sequels do every now and then), but indeed clearly resembles a remake of an old arcade game, and a remake of his Tempest 2000 too... too much not to be noticed. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing (not for me as to speak), but makes his comment look like he doesn't realize the obvious.

I suppose the original Frogger had ten times the fame of Tempest as well, and I think it doesn't shock anyone (an abstract psychedelic wireframe shoot'em up only owns a niche market, as good as it may be, compared to a cute and easy to pick-up game, and as a kid I for one loved "frogger 2" for the C64). :)

Space Frogger, anyone?

Frogger is really nice as a sub game, like it is used in the Simpsons Game on the DS ...
But how can anyone play it for hours ... I get that aggressive, far worse than with Nightwish and Q3 Arena for a whole day ...

He should make a game where you are a Giraffe on mushrooms trying to cross a busy road and then leaping onto logs to get into a "giraffe nest" on the other side of a river. That would sell bucketloads on the Xbox360!

I would think that - regardless of their personal views of the game - most people, particularly creative ones, could have some empathy with a guy who has put his heart and soul into a game and seen it do very badly. Just because Minter's heart and soul might be a little bit more surreal ( to say the least ) than others doesn't mean it's any less of a kick in the teeth. Are we all so perfect that we've never created anything which did really badly?

Granted it's not the most eloquent or insightful of blog posts, but can we not forgive him having a few sour grapes at the moment? I'm sure in the cold light of day he'll know that it was just sour grapes, but so what? A little vent never hurt anyone.

I haven't played the game, and I really have no interest in arcade shooters of any kind, so no comment in that regard. Everyday Shooter, Geometry Wars, Space Giraffe, it's all the same to me.

OK you got me, I do empathise with him because of course I've had plenty of failures in life, but his attitude could improve. Maybe he's not really like that and it's just a bit of PR? If so it worked...

I do empathize with Minter. He's an ass and so am I. Really, are we all losers because we didn't get Picasso's vision of what art is? If I create something and nobody likes it, is it their problem? Nope, it comes with the risk of putting your creation out there. If no one likes it, tough titty.

Allan

A game design didn't work?
An unusual, untested game had a chance of not being accepted by the paying audience in favour of well known formulas? People are obsessed with 1st-person shooters and would buy them over text based 2nd-person shooters at first glance?

Say it isn't so!

I found the following post on his journal rather odd:
In the post right before that one, Jeff explicitly stated his disappointment with the fact that a wide audience was not interested in his game. And yet, he soon after says that the game wasn't made for them anyway and thus he does not care. Rather backwards, it seems. Given that attitude, I don't think it should come as a surprise that Space Giraffe did not sell well to that large number of people it was explicity "not made for."

I'll agree with his thought that the obsession with arcade remakes in these games channels is a completely stupid and irritating practise. Nonetheless, being this bothered by a single failed concept is silly. Making unusual games like he does is a risk, and the dangers should be accepted.

In terms of empathizing with him, sure. He isn't the type of artist I would care to associate with (a little self-absorbed, it seems), but he has definitely tried to make something unique, and put a lot of work into it. That's commendable. However, rather than complain loudly about it, Jeff should take a moment to think about why it failed. First off, it's another "retro" twitch shooter. If there's anything besides remakes that we have too many of, it's those.
Furthermore, while there has been a clearly defined attempt to not remake Tempest, I do not see people taking him on his word there. Frankly, until I think a bit about how his changes affect gameplay, this game looks and sounds rather identical to Tempest. If he wants to differentiate himself from those over-rated remakes like Frogger #421, then he has to make a game that actually looks and feels different!

I would postulate that the ridiculous title is also part of its failure to sell.

but you never know .. cos sometimes games can become cult classics you know .. cos some movies were flops but later people appreciated them ... probably just wasn't marketed right ...

personally though, I thought frogger was a great game !! :)

I've never heard of this game before but i've just watched a few videos on youtube of it. From what i've seen there i would say it's a typical Jeff Minter game. I do like the name. i do like the colours but i can't say if i would like the gameplay from the videos. I just would like to try it out as it just looks and sounds very cool.

Maybe there are some faults with the gameplay because a game like Geometry Wars sold extremely good and somehow would belong to the same category.

Is it only available for Xbox360 or does there exist/will be a version for pc/mac?

Beside of this Frogger is a fantastic game. I still play the original from time to time and it's still a lot of fun.

Looking at some of the videos on youtube, I can say that this game has absolutely -0- draw to me. Sure, it's flashy -- but it doesn't seem be be any *more* than that.

Frogger (to name his anti-example) is clear, has a purpose, and above all it's easy to see what the heck is going on on the screen without being blinded by the eyecandy.

I've vote for Frogger.

But it has a great sound design! I would buy it for the Mac.

To me this is interactive psychedelic art as much as anything. It is from this perspective that I really value and admire his work.

I'm sure it would all make perfect sense on acid - but then, doesn't everything?

Um....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl6vKTP7KPs


Does anyone have any idea what's going on there?

Has got some pretty particle effects though.

Good retro action tempest based shooter which makes usage of todays gfx capabilities?

-> http://llamasoft.co.uk/yak/SG_to_lvl_9.wmv (for a better quality)

I'm going to stick a hand in the air in defence of Jeff here [with the disclosure that he's also a close personal friend of mine].

Sure he's had a rant, and he's done it publicly in his journal, but sometimes we all need to vent don't we. It's just in Jeffs case there are more people watching his every move to take notice.

Thing is, for the past couple of years he's put just about everything into Space Giraffe, supporting a 2-man team living purely off savings. The game was finished *months* before release making for a very frustrating wait going through MS certification and again eating up more savings. So then, to get it out there having been so totally committed to it, both in time and financially for the best part of 2 years and to have it sell poorly is gutting to say the least.

Sure, he's an artist, he's emotional and maybe sometimes he goes a bit OTT with the ranting, but let's not forget, Jeff has a history in games design that started way before a lot of the guys on here were even born.

He is the original indie success story and for that reason alone the guy deserves a break don't you think?

No. I think he's been over-hyped from day one. This would go to anybody's head. This time he didn't get carried and smashed straight into reality.

Jeff's an incredible technical talent but I've always thought he needs to be managed better, almost like a rock star who has someone to keep him from going out with his underpants off, if you know what I mean? :) He needs to have a full time producer who keeps an eye on the consumer world. Jeff should be happy with SG, it's exactly what he wanted to come up with for a long time now.

Rob:
Yeah I just looked at that. This guy might have made a couple popular games in the 80's, but I think the drugs have melted his brain.

He did. He's just angry that other peoples "remakes of old, shite arcade games" are selling better than his.

That's not the point. The point is he's guilty of the exact same thing he's lashing out against. It would be like EA lashing out at (hypothetical) companies who sell the exact same sports game every year, with updated stats for the new season. It's not so much the message, as the hypocrisy of the message.

Sure. Nobodies arguing otherwise. His situation is not unique, and better than most.

No. Besides back when Jeff Minter started cloning arcade games everyone was indie. You may remember this fellow called Peter Molyneux, who is every bit as emotional as Jeff Minter - I don't recall him playing the hypocrite when "The Movies" failed commercially.

Looking at the video that Rob pointed to - I've never played any of this guy's games (or at least not to my knowledge) but that Space Giraffe thing certainly is not my cup of tea. I don't know who would like it either - just looks like a lot of flashing lights and colors and a game with no 'backstory/setting/plot' which I guess makes it hard to care about what is going on in the visuals.

One thing I don't get is why the obsession with llamas, giraffes and the like in his titles? They're just colorful shooters with so much action going on on the screen that they reward mindless pattern playing - a bit like tetris at high levels.

This is nothing new. Minter threw his toys out of the pram in 1985 when Zzap 64 gave Mama Llama a bad review (59% - issue 1, page 116) and quit* writing his column for them after issue 3.

*(or was fired after slagging Zzap off in his Llamasoft newsletter).

Old mac donald had a farm
ee i ee i oh

And on that farm he had a minter
ee i ee i oh

A moan moan here
A moan moan there
Here a moan
There a moan
Everywhere a moan moan

Old mac donald had a farm

Just watched the video and all I can say is....

my eyes hurt

I'm just hoping the PC version gets the reduce effects switch i keep asking for cos the game itself looks pretty good; I'd just like to be able to see whats going on before I fall over in an epileptic fit.

Ah the good old days, and custom artwork on each cover!

Yeah I watched the vid, seemed hard to comprehend.

I think that is the idea. When people get into it, I assume that any onlookers would be baffled by what is going on. Sort of an exclusive club of people who understand the game and those who don't :P
(Personally, I don't understand it and don't care, since it's not my type of game, but I think I see the point).

I feel bad for him. The game is supposedly a lot deeper than Tempest. It sucks when you make a game and put a lot of love into and no one "gets it".

On the critical side of things, in my opinion he should have named it something else. The name "Space Giraffe" never sounded good to me ... I actually find it repulsive. I'm sure I'm in the tiny tiny minority though.

Hello.

Not entirely sure I'd like to play it too much but I think that's a beautiful looking game. Of course he's allowed to rant and why not? As was said, he's put a lot of time and effort into it - no more or less than anyone else who's failed particularly - and he's allowed like anyone else to vent his spleen.

Good luck to him - he's still going, doesn't appear to have sold out or mellowed and still knows what HE wants from a game.

Myehh.

Goodbye.

Never liked his games, and these days he seems to be making screensavers.

And as for critisizing people remaking old arcade games - pots and kettles I think Jeff.

Nobody has mentioned it but the two tutorials you get for free on live arcade (before you put your money in the slot) as "the demo" are the most uninteresting and ugly introduction to a tempest sequel (#5?) ever. The chemical that induced the inclusion of the old mans hovering head is something I pray I will never come in contact with.

If I was the suit in charge I'd make xbox live arcade Robotron-Only until the standard of game lifted. Everything else on there pales in comparison when it comes to throwing the controller at time of death tantrums and other evidence of pure addiction.

I played the demo and found it pretty unplayable. You can't see what's happening.

Looks like a fun game, I'd like to have a go.

But yes to reiterate what everyone else is saying, it just looks like Tempest.

Seeing the word Girafftastic across the middle of the screen though, makes me cringe!