Blitz3D9: Pay for Upgrade
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Blitz3D9: Pay for Upgrade
Anyone willing to pay up to 50-100$ (upgrade!) for a DX9 based Blitz3D, please leave your posting in here.
This does not mean adding shader effects etc but just replacing the current DX7 driven Blitz3D with a DX9 based one to stop the further and further spreading, massive, compatibility problems.
If you are after Eye Candy, TGC offers the language of your choice.
This is no joke posting or anything the like.
This post is to show BRL that there is a serious interest in that, much more interest than in the next bugged BM module or waiting another 2 years until Max3D (been next gen 5 years ago) is out.
Only post if you are serious about it!
I would be willing to pay for it.
I know that I right now don't have a license due to the problems I had with textures on GeForce 6600 but wouldn't have much of a problem to send 150-200$ to BRL for a working DX9 based version :) (I'm right now even considering rebuying the DX7 one if the list of errors that were introduced with 1.99 against the current generation of card and drivers are fixed)
If it is stable, this will be a good investment for ...6-8 years.
So, lets see,
- I am not interested to give money to Steve
- I will never use a server OS as multimedia plattform
.. so i pay for B3D9 and will be happy a long time.
I would be happy about paying for it too :o) As long as it was as stable as the original Blitz3D. TBH, i'm really not interested in BMAX. Too much of a change in language for me.
I'd pay. I don't really want to learn b-mx either.
Might as well, because we will have to pay anyway for an extension as DLL if we want DX9, might as well be direct in the language!
Count me in.
I'm not interested.
much more interest than in the next bugged BM module or waiting another 2 years until Max3D (been next gen 5 years ago) is out.
If you think the next BM module will be buggy, what makes you think that the B3D update you want, won't be? Not only that, I'm sure you'd be waiting a few years for it anyway.
I want DX9. I'd buy an official update if there was one, if not, then I'll go with anyone else's DX9 engine.
I've waited for 3 years on a 3D Module that has not appeared yet and that will most likely never appear in a state that is anywhere near as stable as Blitz3D is. Above that its target has been redefined after at least 2 years into development which does not make me that confident that it exists in a anywhere usable way.
On the other hand there is Blitz3D, fully existing and stable.
I'm aware that a DX7 -> DX9 transition is not that easy due to the changes in DX after all.
But the 3D part should be straight forward, the 2D part could be replaced by a BM like 2D through 3D approach or a copy surface approach onto a single texture and the like.
In the end: Out of what we have seen so far, I believe that this is much faster to be achieved and much more stable than what "Max3D" has presented so far ... especially as it would need to have 2 graphic drivers implemented (OpenGL is a no go on Windows and BM is cross plattform targeted) and I think you agree with me, that Max2D does not raise the needed confidence that this will that easy or even anywhere near as bugfree as Blitz3D.
Another reason I don't think it will play out that nicely is the bug degree of the Blitz3D SDK which seems like a bad joke as it is the same price as Blitz3D ... Even the mmEngine worked better ...
To me its important as the Realm Crafter community has the RC Standard / RC 1 sources which are Blitz3D based for Client and GameEditor it would be great if they could be used further (as BRL does not seem to be interested to adopt the DX7 driver changes every 4 months)
But target of this thread was not a discussion on the point but to show BRL if there is interest in a DX9 replacement and if yes, how large it is. If you do not have any interest, just ignore this thread and have fun with BM + 3D :)
Blitz3D is dead, long live BlitzMax+3rd party 3D engine.
To cut the long story short, I'd be willing to pay for Blitz3D DX9.
Barney
I made a similar post a year ago.
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=57952#644635At that time, many people show no interests because they waited for BlitzMax 3D Module...
In fact, Blitz3D is one of the most successful products in the world (easy, fast and complete 3d commands).
Even a little child could program games in Blitz3D!
:)
No, not if its DX only.
How about Blitz3D opengl (for pc, mac and linux)?
I think this will be a GREAT and UNBEATABLE product.
:)
How about Blitz3D opengl (for pc, mac and linux)?
There already is. MiniB3D.
Theres a reason that Blitz3D is stable and easy to use. It mostly comes down to Blitz3D having an extremely basic render engine that offers a fraction of what a modern engine does. Probably less than 5% of what a well designed feature rich renderer for modern tech does.
It isnt going to happen, unless compatibility is broken.
DX8 and up doesnt have "DirectDraw" anymore, so no 2D available (all 2D stuff is done in 3D).
Also, DX9 wouldnt fix the alpha problem - it's an engine problem; if you dont sort your alpha surfaces, even opengl will show the same behaviour.
The only good thing that could come from updating B3D to DX8 or DX9 is antialias and support for shadows... of course, shaders could be implemented too.
I would want a DX9 too - specially with the alpha sort problem fixed, and shadows; Could even drop the 2D thing, only keeping text (which dx9 can render fine) and 3D sprites.
I've waited for 3 years on a 3D Module
Really? So you've been waiting for a 3D module (I assume for BlitzMAX) for more than a year longer than BlitzMAX has even been out? What does that say about your expectations?
will most likely never appear in a state that is anywhere near as stable as Blitz3D is.
BlitzMAX is already more stable than Blitz3D. It works on TebletPC's out of the box, and has less opportunities for memory leakage from inexperienced programmers.
I'm aware that a DX7 -> DX9 transition is not that easy due to the changes in DX after all.
It's not a matter of not being easy. It's a matter of not being possible. At all.
But the 3D part should be straight forward,
Oh yes. There is no difference at all between a fixed function, and a programmable pipeline.
Out of what we have seen so far,
Which is essentially nothing, so probably not a very good ground for wild speculation.
But target of this thread was not a discussion on the point but to show BRL if there is interest in a DX9 replacement and if yes, how large it is.
I doubt BRL (unlike you) have any illusions about the interest of a DX9 version of Blitz3D. Even if they did, they're not making software for you, they're making software for themselves, and selling it to you, giving you the option to buy.
They've even gone and given you the opportunity to change any aspect of BlitzMAX you don't like, if your own wishes clash with theirs.
In fact, Blitz3D is one of the most successful products in the world
Which world is that? In the world the rest of us live in, GameMaker and 3DGameStudio are more successful than Blitz3D.
Even a little child could program games in Blitz3D!
Small children can hardly write their own names, much less games.
A render engine is a lot more than just the API it uses. There's a lot of scene management, occlusion and culling required to give you the optimization and flexibility you need with a modern engine that Blitz3D doesn't even touch. Shaders are the same regardless of what engine you use, its all the low level scene management that determines how fast and efficiently the rendering will run.
Huge ammount of work for someone to add properly to B3D, and BRL have been working on something on and off for bmax these past 3 years already.
FD: OK so 2 years. I lost the track if it was 2 or 3 years ago BM was released for Apple only originally when I bought it.
Evak: If you plan to sell your technology to 3rd party users, let me know. Would be interested, followed the thread on the ogre boards. (there is nothing else comparable to it for BM. MiniB3D is a no go for me, TV3D through BM is pointless, if then through C#, Dreamotion fires that many device init errors that I ask myself if this is considered > pre alpha at all)
I'd definately pay but I won't be holding my breath.
I just don't have the time to start learning a new language from scratch right now and even then I'd probably opt for c# rather than max.
i'd pay for too.
Heh - my GFX card can't even do DX9, so I don't care. :D
Is there a card incapable of DX9? Even SiS and S3 onboard have DX9 drivers ...
I really don't understand all this "i can't be bothered to learn a new language" stuff. I switched from B+ to BMax and within a week I was up and running. Sure, I was learning on the job and still am but it's not like I needed a programming degree.
> Really? So you've been waiting for a 3D module
> (I assume for BlitzMAX) for more than a year
> longer than BlitzMAX has even been out? What
> does that say about your expectations?
To be fair though, when BMax was first announced, I'm pretty sure it was announced to be pretty much multi-platform Blitz3D. It was only later on when it was released that it became the "we'll release the 2D part now and 3D part is coming later" type scenario.
Do we really need DX9 though for people making Match 3 games and pretty much everyone else not finishing their games?
I'd love a b3d9 upgrade, and would pay 90-100$ for it quickly (as long as the commands are all the same so I don't have to translate all my code)
Enay: no we do not need it for those. We need it for all. After the recent master fails of Blitz3D (Dirtytexture failing, CreateTexture failing totally and the like).
Chances that this become worse is definitely >0 due to the major redesign of graphics hardware with the current generations ...
I would really like to use the language further but with the current rate of updates and sometimes totally breaking features (either due to B3D or the drivers, its hard to say without the sources) you will soon even be forced to drop Blitz3D for match 3. Oh and in the same go naturally BlitzMax as well as it is OGL DX7. And OGL is a no go for windows (on XP it has at least a software fallback, on Vista you are just dead on Intel Onboard and ATI as MS does not provide a software fallback).
So BRL will most likely need to create a DX9 driven backend anyway or leave the Windows Market behind them totally (with a massive wave of fundback request when Blitz3D and BM do not work as advertised on Windows anymore due to missing support for the graphics API which has been standard for several years now.).
You know, even if BRL did pump out a Max3D, these types of threads would still pop up every week. A pack of dogs, you lot are.
Small children can hardly write their own names, much less games.
I've known 6 yr olds who have dabbled with B3D quite successfully.
To be fair though, when BMax was first announced, I'm pretty sure it was announced to be pretty much multi-platform Blitz3D.
I never saw that anywhere. Probably because I made less assumptions about a totally new product nobody knew anything about than you did. Being that it was a totally new product working across three platforms, I think it only fair to -assume- it was going to be BlitzBasic with B3D coming later - exactly as it happenned originally.
on Vista you are just dead on Intel Onboard and ATI as MS does not provide a software fallback).
So MS provided a software fallback for OGL for nVidia but no others?
Even if they did, they're not making software for you, they're making software for themselves, and selling it to you, giving you the option to buy.
Can't help but to snicker there.....
They've even gone and given you the opportunity to change any aspect of BlitzMAX you don't like, if your own wishes clash with theirs.
Just what I wanted.... A world without standards.....
Problem with 3rd party and user customizations proves itself time and time again. When that 3rd party dies (or decides to take a permanent holiday) or the user chooses to pull a Noel Cower (forgive me here Noel) or better yet an Ant (no need to ask forgiveness there) then the whole idea is shot to crap.
This holds true for linux. Every time I want to do something fun with linux I run into problems. I search for 40 days and 40 nights through every newsgroup I can get my hands on to find out A. what is my problem, B. What is the work around, and C. can I go back? The really funny part was installing Debian 4.0 after installing 3.1 sarge a few months back... Come to find out that nothing works like it used to. Now I have to find out where telnet even went, what happened to Init.d, and so on.....
3rd party is great, they do a great job, that is as long as they keep the motivation up... User customization can stick it where the sun doesn't shine because chances of others using 'your' improvements is slim, and even if a few find it useful the chances of anyone supporting it officially is zilch.
To be fair though, when BMax was first announced, I'm pretty sure it was announced to be pretty much multi-platform Blitz3D. It was only later on when it was released that it became the "we'll release the 2D part now and 3D part is coming later" type scenario.
I wont lie, ENAY hit the nail on the head on why I bought BMax. Now it sits on a back up disk collecting dust because it lacks standardization and I have yet to see a decent 3d game made from it.
BlitzMAX is already more stable than Blitz3D. It works on TebletPC's out of the box, and has less opportunities for memory leakage from inexperienced programmers.
That's right, just like saying this piece metal inside my mouse is very stable, but after adding the rest of the mouse components it becomes unstable... Hell, if I were to add an extra light onto it and then call the manufacturer and say "hey, now the mouse doesn't work" they will tell me to piss off as I modified it from the original.. Same with BMax, it's great if your just going to do 'in-box' applications within the limitations of it's shipped syntax list. Once you add on all the stuff you really want to use you'll find that you're back at the begining looking for other solutions.
Blitz3d was good for it's time because it was a standard in itself. You could start and finish a 3d game within the confines of blitz3d. Some users added extra functionality via the DLL support, but you see how quickly those died off (and how many users stopped hosting the dlls others produced, IE the nature of 3rd party support).
If one could have the language of BMax with the built in 3d support, I think one would have a winner on their hands.. But who am I, just a guy who doesn't use BMax for the above mentioned reasons, just a guy who used to use Blitz3d until 'emulating' OO became to painful in it. Just a guy who bought B+ thinking it was a good way to support the guys brining us Bmax 3d by throwing extra cash their way. Hindsight - I could have saved myself 150 bucks by waiting for the winds of BRL to change directions as one usually can with small time indie developers.
But hey, at least it was fun while it lasted right?
No-one say the grass ain't green, or Flameduck will tear you a new one :oP
No need to get on your high horse about people created basically a forum poll for something. I would like to see an upgraded blitz3d. Probably won't happen, but i still would like to see it happen. And i'd be willing to pay for it too.
Oh yes. There is no difference at all between a fixed function, and a programmable pipeline.
No idea what that means :oD That's why i'm still with Blitz3D.
BlitzMAX is already more stable than Blitz3D. It works on TebletPC's out of the box, and has less opportunities for memory leakage from inexperienced programmers.
I probably beleive that to be true. But last time i looked (about 3 month ago?) there was lots of daft things wrong with Blitzmax. Even longer ago, there was a terrible problem with the mouse pointer if i recall correctly. Took a good while to get sorted.
I agree with Stevie G about the issue of learning a new language, particulary Blitzmax. Talked to morduun about this a while back and he said would be better off learning a more wider supported language, with more functionatilty, plus a massive library of code that is tried and tested.
Still, bare in mind - while we wait for Blitz3D v2. Cobra is available:
http://www.squeakyduck.co.uk/ I said this (below) in the other topic about this, and i still think its the way forward, as it would take next to no time compared with the time it would take to write the b3d from scratch (which would be what it would need as it is understood to be so 'spagettified' with dx7)
Here was my idea of what should be done:
If brl abided by the LesserGPL of an existing engine they could make and release their own controled official version of irrlicht (or one of the existing cross platform LGPL engines) simply for compatability monitoring and call it "max3d" if they want. This would ensure only official and fully "wrapper compatible" updates were added. In the same way mods for newton and a sound system could be created too.
For example:
|---LGPL brl controlled builds+source---|-------------------------PROPRIETRY-----------------------------|
official-max3D-newton-build.a ------------------>official command wrapper ---------------\
official-max3D-3dsound-build.a ----------------->official command wrapper----------------> Blitzmax
official-max3D-irrlicht-build.a ------------------->official command wrapper --------------/
A set of 'official' BRL wrappers would not only 'look right' but would feel like B3D as well. This would save them a lot of hard work, time, "wheres the max 3d" earache and would make blitz max much more attractive to those wondering about buying it.
This way B3D users would feel right at home as it would be basically B3D with OGL and DX9, plus the power of MAX so most would be happy. Also those that want to use other engines/mods can still do so in the same way as before.
(heroes :) like gman and cygnus, evak etc are more than half way there already. However it appears that because they are not 'official' mods, rely on a 3rd party release of the wrapped engine and use additional command prefixes, seems to make them less attractive to some b3d fans.
Hotcakes: No microsoft does not offer ANY OpenGL fallback on Vista
The driver makers must write their own OpenGL driver or it just failes!
NVIDIA did
Intel did for the new ones but older Intels are not WDDM conform and therefor can not get OpenGL support
And ATI always was trashy on opengl and now trashy and inexistant.
Is there a card incapable of DX9? Even SiS and S3 onboard have DX9 drivers ...
DX9 wasn't even out when I got my GFX card. :)
heh, someone would probably send you a free card if you paid for postage and packaging. I have a Geforce 3 and 6600GT AGP that run most things fine, Geforce 3 doesn't do much in the way of shaders but still.
If it gave faster rendering speeds without breaking all sorts of existing stuff, then 'yes in a flash'. Else, depending on features, highly likely to probably.
(Rubux.net is developing a DX9 replacement for Blitz's commandset. It's not finished yet, but it has promise)
I would be interested.
..I would be interested too..but I doubt that will happen, keeping in mind that similar products already popping up /Cobra 3D, Dreamotion.../ and keeping in mind that some other thingy, open source is already out,and multiplatform, I would like to say that waiting for such thing next 1-2 years while that time can be used to learn something whats already out there, is a waste..
Meh.
Blitzmax for me.
If you are looking for an OpenGl improved equivalent to Blitz3d, try Cobra3D.
http://www.squeakyduck.co.uk/ Big plus is that the developer communicates well and is prepared to listen to his users.
Chumpin'nora! That Cobra is looking mighty excellent! I'm all afeared I'm going to have to buy this and wave B3D goodbye for my next game. Cobra is showing such promise - it's like it went down the road B3D missed at the last turn.
You guys need to realize that features like bumpmapping aren't simply something you "turn on". It's easy to write a simple shader demo, but it is much harder to integrate features into a cohesive renderer. The original Blitz3D doesn't even have lighting, except for simple commands that wrap GPU vertex lights.
I agree with Leadwerks the only way your gonna get a Blitz3d DX9 renderer is write your own. It would be easier to do it in OpenGL and use Max's openGL capabilities to do it like klepto is doing with his Minib3d enhanced.
So could I post: 'BlitzMax 3d Module: Pay for release'?
I'm not a hard-core-programmer but as mentioned during the years it's quite a hard work release an update to support directx9: it comports a major rewrite of the render engine itself...new commands for lighting (as mentioned by Leadwerks) and for shaders, and so on...)
At this point it will be so a different product...that you can call it Blitz3d v.2
I prefer BlitzMax - more advanced language - multiplatform - modular.
It been said hundreds of times that Blitz3d can not be upgrade it would be a complete rewrite because direct x 7 is so different from 8 and 9 or even 10.
I think there is still a market for a blitz3d 2 (opengl) with mac and linux versions. build in ODE. add a shadow system. You would sell millions. Mark has the knowledge of opengl to do it.
Who actually READ MY INITIAL POST??
I'm not asking about realtime lighting and shadowing or anything the like.
I want the DX7 dependance be moved over to DX9 due to the issues that already have appeared and will appear even more the longer fixed pipeline gets emulated through driver based shader stuff which is meant for DX9 not DX7.
First report indicate a total fail of CreateTexture (not only the one that was reported with VRAM + MASK / ALPHA flag) which means that over short or long loadtexture itself could fail as badly.
And just to repeat that: I have 0 interest in OpenGL, otherwise I would use one of the existing engines.
I'm not interested in high end shader stuff, I own a TGEA license and Blitz will never even get near that capability level.
I'm after a simple to use, stable DX9 based game engine environment that works on a broad userbase (my GMA900 is what I see as min requirement so OGL is out, it is emulated on these cards through MS OGL 1.1 emulation) and I am willing to pay for that exchange of DX7 dependency with DX9 one!
No shader features nor any high end trash that needs 3-4 graphic people to get them done right.
Hey - well said!
iam pay for !
I would definitely pay for a DX9 version of Blitz3D. BlitzMax does nothing for me at all.
I'm after a simple to use, stable DX9 based game engine environment that works on a broad userbase... and I am willing to pay for that exchange of DX7 dependency with DX9 one!
That says it all for me.
Then why dont you buy DBPro thats 'Direct X 9' based the syntax maybe very different from Blitz But it does fill the required need.
I want the DX7 dependance be moved over to DX9 due to the issues that already have appeared and will appear even more the longer fixed pipeline gets emulated through driver based shader stuff which is meant for DX9 not DX7.
And what are these issues exactly? Everything I have compiled before DX9 and Vista works exactly as expected under DX9 and Vista, or DX9 and XP. Same with all the B3D games I tried so far.
The only thing I recall is Antialiasing not working as it should.
CreateTexture does not work with VRAM flag and MASK / ALPHA correctly anymore with new NVIDIA drivers
On some machine, CreateTexture even fails totally and does not generate a texture at all and stuff like this.
The new "cool" features of 1.99 are already broken again (bufferdirty etc)
It makes no sense to fix stuff that is going to be broken with new drivers over and over again as the drivers don't care for an API abandoned years ago.
I've known 6 yr olds who have dabbled with B3D quite successfully.
Yeah? But he didn't say "Even small children can dabble in Blitz3D quite successfully". Besides which I'm sure your wonder child could dabble equally well in either language.
Problem with 3rd party and user customizations proves itself time and time again.
BRL is a 3rd party. Particularly so when they're doing something you don't want or need. If you find people like Noel (huh?) or Ant (fair enough) unreliable, find someone else (like GMan, GrahamK, Cygnus or whoever).
because chances of others using 'your' improvements is slim
So what? If no one else wants to use your DX9 module, what have you lost? Nothing. You've gained a DX9 renderer.
You could start and finish a 3d game within the confines of blitz3d.
Provided you wanted a simplistic and somewhat bland 3D game, sure. It's been 6 years, and while the cream of the crop (Tank Universal and Naked War) are true accomplishments, most of the good games (like Best Friends and Skidmarks Construction Set) were done 5 years ago!
But hey, at least it was fun while it lasted right?
Absolutely.
No idea what that means :oD That's why i'm still with Blitz3D.
A fixed function pipeline (often referred to as Hardware Transform & Lighting) means that you simply feed the GPU data, and it does all the work for you. This is what Blitz3D does, and why you're limited to 8 lights, 4 layers of multitexturing and simple texture blending.
A programmable function pipeline (often referred to as "Shaders") allows (or rather requires) you to write small programs for each step. This means you no longer have to deal with arbitrary limitations on how complex your scene can be, but instead means that overdoing it can cause severe performance loss.
The world is no longer as innocent as it once was, and the continued pressure from the likes of Crytek, to push the graphics hardware to do even more complex stuff, is further going to alienate people who want simple technology that just works.
Even longer ago, there was a terrible problem with the mouse pointer if i recall correctly.
This is a shortcoming of DirectX, not BlitzMAX.
seems to make them less attractive to some b3d fans.
Yes. Well there's no way to deal with that kind of fanaticism. "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" - Winston Churchill.
CreateTexture does not work with VRAM flag and MASK / ALPHA correctly anymore with new NVIDIA drivers
I fail to see how shitty nVidia drivers are somehow BRLs fault! This is far from the first time that nVidias random, poorly thoughtout, incoherent "optimizations" to beat ATi in whatever DOOM3 benchmark is being used over at Toms Hardware has had a negative impact on everything else. Remember when nVidia users suddenly noticed that any Blitz3D program that was using DirectDraw commands slowed to a halt? Do you ever wonder why most games come with troubleshooting instructions like this: If you're having trouble with video artifacts, try installing the latest drivers. If you're using an nVidia chipset you need to use this specific driver version xx.yy instead, because it's the only one that will fucking work.
The only thing I recall is Antialiasing not working as it should.
This has never worked as it should on nVidia cards. I remember it not working back on my TNT 2 cards while Blitz3D was still in beta.
You don't get it right?
Its no NVIDIA Driver problem.
DirectX7 has officially been abandoned YEARS ago, DX9 is the standard since 2004, thats soon 4 years ago and before it, DX8 was the standard!
So its a wonder it worked fine so far but it will be the even larger wonder if it will keep on working now that GPUs do not have any fixed function pipeline anymore on which DX7 fully bases. This stuff is emulated through shaders that are meant to replicate the DX9 behavior which in some cases isn't the same thing as DX7 does.
I fail to see how shitty nVidia drivers are somehow BRLs fault!
Exactly. This isn't a DX7 issue at all. There are brand new DX9 and DX10 retail games out now which all-but refuse to run unless you have the precise Nvidia driver version that they want you to use. And because I know someone will ask, Timeshift and Gears of War, to name two.
Leaving aside a lot of the messy stuff, the simple truth is that this won't happen whether you want it to or not. Why?
1) BRL do not like DX9. It's there for anyone to see. The oft-mentioned B3D DX9 upgrade "promise" ( those are big, sarcastic, finger wagging in the air quotes for a reason ) did not come. BlitzMax has an OpenGL driver, a DX7 driver and a DX9 driver. Which one is the only one not written by BRL? Correct. When Max3D was being mentioned in worklogs, was there a DX9 driver? Nope. Was there even talk of a possible future DX9 driver? Yep, and it specifically said that someone else would probably do it.
2) BRL know that a large percentage of people who say they'll buy something won't. How many people said at one time or another that Blitz3D you could program in C++ would be awesome and they'd buy it in a second? And how many did when B3D SDK was released? Judging by the forums, about ten.
(3) Sell an upgrade and now you have two completely divergent builds to support. You double the workload for nothing like double the profit. Bad business. The only way they could vaguely make it work would be to sell all new versions of Blitz3D with the upgrade already included, and then the complaints in point 4) below would be even worse.
4) Probably the best reason of all. BRL saw what happened with the B3D SDK. For every person who bought it, another five people blazed off angry forum messages about how it was blatant money-making, ripping off customers, selling the same product twice, the worst thing since Hitler, etc, etc. Again experience with BRL tells you that this is precisely the kind of thing they do everything possible to avoid. It's likely the reason they are BRL and not working in a big company somewhere. Sorry, but I don't think they're going to fall for it twice.
Its no NVIDIA Driver problem.
Oh really? How did you come to that conclusion? It works on ATi cards, it works on an Intel on-board chipsets, it fails on nVidia cards. Hrmmm, must be a problem with Blitz3D.
DirectX7 has officially been abandoned YEARS ago, DX9 is the standard since 2004, thats soon 4 years ago and before it, DX8 was the standard!
DirectX7 was officially dropped with the release of DirectX10, so only one year ago.
DirectX8 was largely ignored by everyone.
DirectX9 was released in 2002 and has since 2004 seen "bimonthly updates", so can hardly be considered a "standard" by anyones definition from that point on.
This stuff is emulated through shaders that are meant to replicate the DX9 behavior which in some cases isn't the same thing as DX7 does.
Listen. The only entity you should blame for lack of backwards compatibility is Microsoft. You want to be able to develop backwards compatible software, use OpenGL. How long do you think it's going to be before Microsoft drop support for DX9? My guess is that it's a shorter amount of time, than what one could reasonably write a DX9 renderer in. Basically what I'm saying is that even if Mark did drop everything he was working on now, to focus purely on a rewrite of Blitz3D to accommodate DX9, it would be unsupported by the time it was finished.
If I were a gambling man, I'd wager that's why he switched to OpenGL in the first place. Probably just got tired of working on products that were obsolete by the time they were ready to ship.
Did you check the B3D SDK boards?
The SDK is no B3D in C++. Its a large broken DLL that does half of the stuff not that B3D does (no 3D sound, memory leaks and all the like and the first patch is in beta after months post release).
Comparing that to what users said is unfair as BRL did not delivery what was assumed to be deliveried, a C++ usable Blitz3D! Lets recheck that situation WHEN the Blitz3D SDK is Blitz3D in an SDK form (like mmEngine was until stopped by BRL)
And an upgraded Blitz3D wouldn't be like that. The old one would be stopped selling and there would only be the new one. The old one can't be sold that much longer anyway otherwise the support (which is already slow as hell sometimes) would be flooded with refunds due to not working commands (CreateTexture as mentioned above) and features -> break off advertisement which is break of contract and entitles anyone for a refund.
The SDK is no B3D in C++. Its a large broken DLL that does half of the stuff not that B3D does (no 3D sound, memory leaks and all the like and the first patch is in beta after months post release).
Comparing that to what users said is unfair as BRL did not delivery what was assumed to be deliveried, a C++ usable Blitz3D!
That's precisely my point. There's a significant faction here who say any new BRL product will be wonderful, far better than anything else anyone's ever written and they'll buy it immediately. At the same time, they've got nothing good to say about any of the products which BRL actually have released.
Now I don't own the B3DSDK, so I'm going to carefully walk along the fence when it comes to accusations of what's wrong with it. However, there are two possibilities. One is that the accusations are not true, and they're just good excuses for people who said they would buy it not to do so. The other is that the accusations are correct, and there's no reason to assume that a DX9 version of B3D would be any better. In short, either people will have a good reason not to buy it, or a bad one. Either way...
And an upgraded Blitz3D wouldn't be like that.
Which demonstrates my point perfectly. The next product will always be perfect until it arrives. It won't be anything like the one you're criticizing in the same breath.
The old one would be stopped selling and there would only be the new one.
I already said that's the only way it could work. It's why the complaining would be even worse. I can already see people writing "So now those of us who supported BRL by buying Blitz3D when it was first out are being kicked in the unmentionables by having to pay for an upgrade that Johnny-come-lately B3D users will get for free". Tell me that won't happen. Now do it with a straight face.
break off advertisement which is break of contract and entitles anyone for a refund.
Anti Aliasing hasn't worked properly for over four years. How many people do you know of that got a refund for that?
And because I know someone will ask, Timeshift and Gears of War, to name two.
Bioshock and Crysis to name two more games that apparently deserve special nVidia driver versions.
Hey, here's an idea! Maybe someone should write nVidia and ask them to create special Blitz3D driver versions?
If the new B3D version have the same features as Bioshock or Crysis (Engine) with a simple Api nVidia will do that. ;)
they don't need special driver versions. they just need drivers that are supporting a specific DX9.0c version at least.
As a mather of fact, there are minor modifications to DX every 2 months, so if your driver is older than that, you potentially run into problems especially as the DX9.0c shader compiler has been replaced last dec and got improved since then so that old drivers will just break or not work at best performance.
Gabriel: A not working CreateTexture is not something that has not worked for years. Its something that is now broken and that I am not sure that BRL can fix it without moving to DX9 as the texture problems haven't appeared for the first time.
They already had issues with GF6600
No microsoft does not offer ANY OpenGL fallback on Vista
That's interesting as I can run ANY OGL app (software fallback 1 frane per second goodness) on my machine and I'm using Vista drivers with my GeForce3... I must have some kind of magic computer goblin translating API calls for me.
And ATI always was trashy on opengl and now trashy and inexistant.
So ATI owners can't play Doom 3 on Vista? That's nasty. Or a good thing. For them. Depends if you liked the game or not I suppose.
Besides which I'm sure your wonder child could dabble equally well in either language.
I wasn't speaking of wonder children.
As DirectX is always being changed and raise different problems, what's wrong with having Blitz3D V2 Opengl for cross platform?
Besides, there exists a book called "Game programming for teen-2 edition" so that a little kids could program games. Is it possible to have "BlitzMax for teen"? I don't think so.
I think the spirit of designing Blitz products is to allow everyone (small kids or the old) who like playing games could write their own one, no matter they are simple or complex.
As DirectX is always being changed and raise different problems, what's wrong with having Blitz3D V2 Opengl for cross platform?
Yes! If only there was a language where the syntax was just like Blitz3D, but it was cross-platform and used OpenGL. Oh wait, there
already is.
Besides, there exists a book called "Game programming for teen-2 edition" so that a little kids could program games. Is it possible to have "BlitzMax for teen"? I don't think so.
Well, I live in Britain, where most teenagers can't read. Other than that, I'm not sure what your point is. Teenagers can't learn to program in BlitzMax? That's odd, because I know some who have been for years.
There's also MiniB3D Extended which imho IS Blitz3D v2 opengl and cross platform.
Blitzmax ist not B3D. We want a new B3D Version and NOT Blitzmax (I have a lizenz of Blitzmax )
openGL on Windows is a nogo, thats the problem of Cobra and GLBasic. Nobody is paying a new grafikcard because his intel chips onboard are not able to deal with openGL. And OFFICE pcs from HP/Compaq Dell etc with integrated intel chips (or Ati) are the most selled PCs worldwide. If you want to develop for windows, you use directX. If you want to develop for Linux or Mac, you use openGL.
Most of the peoples here on board are not interessted in Bmax, or openGL or Mac or Linux or whatever. We have here always the same 10 guys in this board who are flooding every thread with her bmax music. If you love Bmax, use it and let us ask and talk about what we like and want to see, a new B3D Version.
bye
Hotcakes: Do you even read what people write before you quote anything?
I said that NVIDIA HAS OGL support on Vista!!!
You have a GeForce so unless you have a magically rebranded ATI Radeon 7500, it IS NVIDIA!
So please, think before you post and destroy the purpose of this thread or don't post if you have no idea what graphic card you have or what we are talking off.
I would really like to develop my next project with Blitz3D but as we already have problems now (there has been a mention that even a simple loadtexture with flag 2 failed in the bug thread), I don't see any chance that the games will run at all anymore when I am done with it in about 12 months.
As these things are even now not commented or confirmed when posted, I don't see this kind of handling getting any better but the situation getting quite fast worse.
There are only two ways to handle that:
1. There will be a new version that handles this stuff stable ie gets DX7 replaced with DX9 without adding "nifty features"
2. Blitz3D is taken off from the product pages as it does not longer work as advertised.
I would prefer number 1, definitely, and that preference is worth 100$ upgrade for me. (the current blitz3d could be seen as the last version of Blitz3D 1 and remain like that)
The SDK didn't work out and just took care that even less support for Blitz products has been there due to a further spreading and actually, what I've seen of the SDK (bugs, memory leaks, 1/3 of the performance etc) does not make me believe even the least bit in it or show me that the 100$ are a fair price for it. Its not even Blitz3D in DLL form (broken features, removed features, removed sound especially)
So please, anyone posting here, only post if you are interested in having a DX7 replaced with DX9 version of Blitz3D (don't care how it would be called)
If you want to rant about Blitz3D, DX7 or want to let us know how godlike great you think OGL is: USE A DIFFERENT THREAD
Please ...
This is a seriously meant thread
I would even pay upfront if there was some kind of a "if XX user pay upfront we will do it within 2 months, otherwise we will refund the money" contract bound to finance it!
I would pay for Blitz3d DX9.
I originally thought DX9/10 will always be compatible with DX7!
I thought Dreamora mentioned this thread
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=71111(jfk had to use special methods to bypass the problems)
It seems that DX7 really causing compatibility problem with DX9 or DX10.
Does Blitz3D SDK have the same problems?
We could not prevent users from upgrading to DX9/10 or newest display drivers.
If Blitz3D stays at DX7, will more unpredicted problems occur in future?
I began to worry about these...
(It should be much more stable than DarkBasic pro. Why?)
Yes, the longer it remains on a years abandoned API the higher is the chance that NVIDIA, Intel and AMD don't care for it anymore in their driver implementations (DX7 has nothing to do with DX9 or DX10. Is it its own API) to get 2% more performance out of their DX9 / DX10 drivers.
Especially in those cases where Blitz3d itself ignores the DX7 standards to give the users features not existing at all. (create a non square power of 2 texture or pushing as many polygons and vertices into a mesh as you want even thought DX7 clearly specifies 64 * 1024 as max for both which results in not rendered meshes and the like)
Just to add in my little note - I would pay for Blitz3d DX9
I am always amazed at some of the misinformation I see here...
Some good examples..
That's interesting as I can run ANY OGL app (software fallback 1 frane per second goodness) on my machine and I'm using Vista drivers with my GeForce3... I must have some kind of magic computer goblin translating API calls for me.
Not really sure if that's a comment that OGL works on vista, but at 1fps... If thats the case, then a quick update of drivers should bring it up to speed! OpenGL works fine under vista with both ATI and NVidia, but it's really important to make sure they are up to date, as there have been some 'poor' drivers in the past.
openGL on Windows is a nogo, thats the problem of Cobra and GLBasic. Nobody is paying a new grafikcard because his intel chips onboard are not able to deal with openGL. And OFFICE pcs from HP/Compaq Dell etc with integrated intel chips (or Ati) are the most selled PCs worldwide. If you want to develop for windows, you use directX. If you want to develop for Linux or Mac, you use openGL.
This is a corker, most Intel onboard chips can use OpenGL just fine (certainly the current ones). I recently bought a new 'small form factor' pc with vista, and embedded Intel card, which ran most standard cobra features 'out of the box' (and at some speed), which amazingly wasn't the case when I threw some directX code at it. The same was true for some of the older laptops I've tried as well as a lot of "office" pc's.
I fear you are seriously wrong Graham. GMA900, which is still sold, falls back to Microsofts OpenGL 1.1 emulation (even thought it has hardware PS 2.0).
That definitely is a NO GO
And that actually was a quite high onboard for the date it was the common chip (1-2 years ago).
Even today there are still a fair amount of systems sold with it. Apple sold it until a few months ago with any macbook and mac mini!
@ GrahamK
Play this Game (openGL/SDL/OpenAL) on a SYS or an older Intel
chipset and have fun with your 6 fps. :P
http://www.scherfgen-software.net/blocks5/ I fear you are seriously wrong Graham. GMA900, which is still sold, falls back to Microsofts OpenGL 1.1 emulation (even thought it has hardware PS 2.0).
That definitely is a NO GO
Interesting,
Same card as my secondary laptop, and runs my test examples at the same speed as directX, and in fact runs some better than directx... Again, no tweaks to drivers or anything special, just the base machine as it was given to me (I know the same to be true on mac mini, but I don't have one myself so I can't re-verify).
Sure some things don't work well (eg. hardware assisted shadows), but the same is true under DX (usually different features though, which is a pain!).
Nobody is paying a new grafikcard because his intel chips onboard are not able to deal with openGL.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong. If people really want to play your game, buying a £20 graphics card is not really much of a show stopper. Besdies Intel onboard aren't able to deal with DirectX either, not because they have poor drivers, but because they're poor chipsets.
And OFFICE pcs from HP/Compaq Dell etc with integrated intel chips (or Ati) are the most selled PCs worldwide.
Yes, but the range of office applications that require hardware accelerated OpenGL or DirectX is pretty marginal.
If you want to develop for windows, you use directX.
Sure. If you want to maintain your software indefinitely. How many DirectX games have you got that won't run? I can still play Quake (OpenGL) on my Windows box, yet Call Of Duty 4 (DirectX) failed, with a call ironically enough to CreateTexture().
Most of the peoples here on board are not interessted in Bmax, or openGL or Mac or Linux or whatever.
Oh. Right. So that must be why there are separate forums for Mac, Linux and OpenGL programing, but not one for DirectX programming. Because nobody cares.
We have here always the same 10 guys in this board who are flooding every thread with her bmax music.
Much like we have a the same 10 Luddite whiners that can't seem to realize that their 7 year old software is obsolete (largely thanks to it being locked down on a Microsoft platform) and refuse to move on.
If you love Bmax, use it and let us ask and talk about what we like and want to see, a new B3D Version.
You're right of course. There's no harm in letting you cretins delude yourselves. Or is there?
Most of the peoples here on board are not interessted in Bmax, or openGL or Mac or Linux or whatever. We have here always the same 10 guys in this board who are flooding every thread with her bmax music. If you love Bmax, use it and let us ask and talk about what we like and want to see, a new B3D Version.
Just because you think you speak for everyone, doesn't mean you actually do. The number of active forum posters on any subject is a tiny proportion of the number of actual users. I wouldn't dream of being so arrogant as to assume that everyone uses BlitzMax because I do, although that does seem to be an accusation you're aiming at me. On the contrary, I think the only people who know are the people who own the site. So if the people who own the site aren't doing what you want, I think it stands to reason that they know something you ( and I ) don't know about who's using what.
Incidentally, it seems odd to me that someone who thinks he speaks for everyone has to ask anyone with a different opinion not to share it. Some might call that a Freudian slip.
Just throwing in my vote here.
I would gladly pay for an updated Blitz3d. I have gotten more mileage out of b3d than most things in life, so it would be a worthy investment to me. I'm quite happy with it currently, but if there was a way to move it into a new generation(s) of hardware I'd be interested.
I know the future is Bmax, as many have already said,... but I have very little interest in that.
Play this Game (openGL/SDL/OpenAL) on a SYS or an older Intel
chipset and have fun with your 6 fps. :P
Well, I get even less with a Radeon X1950pro and a Athlon X2 5200+ on Vista, everything up to date. Any other OpenGL app works great, so that's definitely the fault of the developer here. :)
are you guys stupid? mark sibly already said in these discussions that he will invest his time into making max3D rich. upgrading b3d will be impossible because of the old code structure..,.
There is a promising Direct X 9 engine floating around, and it will be sold, as a C++, and Blitz3D add-on (don't know about BlitzMax). Somehow, I don't think BRL is interested in doing business with an outsourced Direct X 9 engine, as they would have to take that and swap it in the Blitz3D core instead of the Direct X 7 core that is in place. But, that could be the easiest solution to extend the life of this product, as it might get to a point where more incompatibilities will pop up in the not so distant future if Blitz3D remains untouched.
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=67318 Seriously. How long do you people think Microsoft is going to keep DX9 on life support? DX7 it seemed had a 7 year life span (2000-2007) DX9 was released in 2002, so would be obsolete by 2009 given the same time frame. What's the point in starting development on anything at all, for a platform that's likely to be obsolete in 2 years?
Even if you were willing to pay for it today, by tomorrow (never mind by the time it's actually finished) you might not be. In fact it's highly probable that you wouldn't.
Actually, DX9.0c will have a longer life.
DX7 would have had it if DX10 didn't enfore pure shader hardware which is bad for fixed function pipeline, that only emulates DX9 functionality which in some cases breaks with DX7 stuff.
I would say that DX9.0c will exist for at least 3-5 more years, ie until the next Windows Version is going to be released. (so more 5 as release != working as the current state of Vista shows)
Mainly because of the fact that DX7 didn't get a new version after 1 year while DX9 is still actively handled by microsoft with a new minor minor version each 2 months. (currently Nov 2007 )
If people want to have blitz3d with direct x9 the short term answer seams to be the Dreamotion3d wrapper when its done. Its going well from what ive tried and Spike314 has wrapped all the blitz3d functions so it only need small changes to code. Spike314 says theres an update on the way, im look forword to this.
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=73206 Dreamotion is a pure horror, sorry.
Don't have 4 years to wait that the engine stops breaking in noob situations or even learns what "correct device initialisation" means.
I've to restart the application about 4 times until I don't get a Device creation error anymore and see a 3D window.
Even noobish alpha engines do not suffer this kind of serious issue.
Currently its not even on the "perhaps later" alternative list.
oh ? Ive only played with the example and ive not had any problem but if that is the case its a shame.
I have a quick question, since you all seem to like the idea of paying for a Blitz3D upgrade to D3D9: have you looked at the history of these requests? This is easily not the first time someone has asked "would you pay for a D3D9 upgrade?" There has always been that eery bunch of people who say they'll pay but obviously never will, and then there's those of you who seem to think anything BRL hasn't released is pure gold and everything else is a steaming pile.
Ordinarily I wouldn't mean to criticize, but have you even considered how bizarre it looks to someone like me to watch you do this over and over till the end of time? Honestly, you all should accept the fact that B3D is as good as dead, there is no resurrecting it on a newer API because of the significant change in what is (deemed) necessary to write a rendering engine, let alone a game engine.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to actually work on something- have fun waiting.
Ordinarily I wouldn't mean to criticize
Well of course.
Look, I'm one of those 'eery bunch' who would pay for a DX9 upgrade - reason being I have a large codebase in Blitz3d and I'd like it to render a bit quicker and to have a few more specialfx. I don't think I'm being 'bizarre', but at the same time, I don't care how or by whom it's done, as long as it works. And looking at the length of this thread, there is some demand for this?
Noel: This is why I say that I am as well willing to pay upfront but only against a 2 sided contract: if they get the payment of XX users the must do it within a limited timeframe, if they don't get the payment of XX users -> refund the money payed upfront.
I know that nobody invests money into a soap bubble.
The question is: is it more important to BRL to actually do this step, getting Blitz3D and the SDK working again for another few years or are they willing to take it offline and do not offer it any further in a few months?
Because the later is what they will be forced to do unless they want to have bi weekly fixes ready or start to check the driver versions to do different things differently which is a hell that will never end.
So what we actually do is show a way out of this for BRL without losing their face (especially the B3D SDK owners would take care of that and ask for refund as the SDK never worked for them as advertised in that case) and even offering further income. Income that BM most likely will never create as it tries to compete with too well known languages etc and that as a non-free language that offers less features than the free ones ...
On the dreamotion thing: just to clarify, this happens on a 7600, 256MB VRAM, not some kind of crappy card or the like.
Noel: I don't wait, I actually have a few other things to do. As the transition would take 1-3 months actually and regularily answers and statements from BRL tend to take as long, it would be a little unwise to put everything on hold
Noel: I hear ya. This thread seems to come up every few months or so, and this is the first time I've ever commented in one of the threads. I know it's usually the same crowd asking for pixel shaders and such.
In my case, I'm very happy with B3d, and really don't mind not having new shader support and such. BUT,...
- I want to be able to code in B3d for a long time
- If an update is required to keep it running smooth, I'm willing to pay
- Naturally an update big enough to pay for would have some new goodies.
I'm definately not holding my breath here,... I'm having too much fun with B3d. I'll be buying a new Laptop to run XP on soon, and that will be my Blitz machine as long as it keeps running, which hopefully will be a very long time.
@FlameDuck
My english is not 100% so i try to explain it like this.
Every one in this forum can read and see the blitzmax info page. Also every one can download the demo(ok..no linux demo available). And every one can take a decision if he is happy with blitzmax or like it to see a new b3d version (only with new dx9 version and without all the bmstuff features).
So it makes no sense to post in every b3d discussion how good blitzmax is. No, i can not speak for every one here, but i can speak for all those how have made the decission to use b3d and asking the autor of b3d (Mark Sibly) for a new version of the produkt used.
I have the Lizenz of B3D AND Blitzmax (payed after the first release with the 3D Starchip demo 2 weeks before launch -.-). But for me Blitzmax IS NOT a new B3D. I now that it is hard for a little team to have 2 big Produkts. I ask only to Mark (and not to the max users) to not forget all the B3D User. If he says a simple "Buy Bmax for update", i think he will lose lots of customers. But i can also read on the main page of this site:
Our flagship product is Blitz3D, the hit 3D games programming language used by thousands of programmers around the world.
I think he knows why, so i look foreward and hope that he will find a way to give every user good stuff in the futur, B3D and Blitzmax users. :)
I love coding in Blitz3D. So, that makes me a luddite? LOL. Pure class. Most people on here probably aren't that bothered about creating a game they want to sell for lots of money. It's a hobby mainly. I just don't get what is the problem creating a thread asking for it. If it annoys you, grow up. It's a thread on a forum board. It's not parked outside your house...
If you want to code in something else fine. I don't care. Nor should I, as it's your choice. Ridiculing people is rather childish.
Abrexxes, We have already been told a million times that there will and can be no DX version stepping of B3D due to it being so hard coded for DX7. Thats it, end of story,(Unless a 3rd party writes an external DLL or something, but then if youre gonna use an external anyway why not just use max?)
That leaves Blitz Max which is many many times more powerful a language, similar to b3d syntax wise, cross platform, modular and obviously the next step. Any official 3d engine will obviously need both DX/GL renderers for its 3D solution to keep it cross platform (and rightly so).
Can i just ask all those screaming "we dont want max we want another b3d" What is it you want exactly? Is it the IDE? the compiler? or the commands? "B3D" as we know it can be mostly recreated on blitzmax in terms of command structure syntax etc (like gmans doing with irrlicht), even in program structure if you want to just use simple types etc, Im sure if there is to be a "Max3D" its commands will be designed to mimic b3d ones as close as possible, so i dont understand all the hostility towards blitzmax?
hehehhee
1. Blitz3D is not that hard coded for DX7 otherwise it would at least try to follow the DX7 standards and not work by DX9 standards in DX7 (mentioned at least 2 broken specifications above)
2. Nobody assumes that it is a 2 week kiddie thing. Otherwise nobody would be willing to pay 100$ for it actually (at least not I)
We know that this transition might take 2-3 months but we believe in Blitz3D and that it is a great language.
There is actually a reason I switched over from DB / DBP to Blitz3D years ago even thought DBP was and always will be more powerfull than B3D as it gives the more advanced user access to internals (FVF, Meshbuffer, functionality accessable through the runtimes -> important for scripting).
But I actually prefered the language itself.
Blitz is cleaner and better designed.
Its 3D is well built with its entity system and offers a lot of possibility to optimize it if you know how (SSwift, Filax, Fredborg, X-Pressive and a few others have shown this often in the past).
But in its current state, the only thing you will soon be able to do is throw it off the disk as its executables will straight fail on your system.
PS: for the more professional users: a move to DX9 would give you fullscreen resolution and higher window resultions than you can have right now (the max is somewhere between 1680x1050 which works and 19XXx1200 which does not work). Blitz3D is incapable of creating a 3D context at such resolutions or if you try to run it on a multi monitor setup, even thought your GPU can do multimonitor 3D hardware acceleration.
Thats a sometimes seriously annoying restrictions especially if you create tools
Dont get me wrong, i love "blitz3d" too. Its served me well and have a lot of respect for it. I like the easy commands. I know its solid, and its a damn shame that Vista/DirectX doesnt look like it will be as backwardly compatable as we had hoped.
That said, I still think blitzmax has far more potential than blitz3d. Especially when an official 3d solution does arrive, in whatever form, as it will probably be as similar as possible to b3d command wise. Anyway, many of the commands we know and love from "DX7 b3d" would quite possibly need to be quite different in a "DX9 b3d" anyway due to the differences, so there would be a lot of learning to do either way.
You have a GeForce so unless you have a magically rebranded ATI Radeon 7500, it IS NVIDIA!
So please, think before you post and destroy the purpose of this thread or don't post if you have no idea what graphic card you have or what we are talking off.
Likewise, buddy. If YOU knew what YOU were talking about, you would know that the GeForce3 is not supported on Vista by nVidia drivers.
I said that NVIDIA HAS OGL support on Vista!!!
Me :So MS provided a software fallback for OGL for nVidia but no others?
You:No microsoft does not offer ANY OpenGL fallback on Vista
Not really sure if that's a comment that OGL works on vista, but at 1fps...
Yes, it's called software rendering, which Dreamora seems to think doesn't exist.
it's really important to make sure they are up to date
It's really hard to get up to date drivers for a graphics card that is not supported. I can use XP drivers but they introduce stability problems over the Vista default drivers and also kills compatibility with a couple of games I play (Rollercoaster Tycoon 1 and 2).
Nobody said that BM has no potential.
But it also has potential flaws that are known (from a modern language I assume that it is at least callback save. Blitz3D didn't crash due to any second attempt to use a DLL usefully. Something I still would like to see on BM).
But there isn't going to be an acceptable Windows 3D Solution for it anytime soon (acceptable: Simple, Stable, DX9 based, not bloated with Editors and other "eye candy" replacement additions that are only there to satisfy those users that really hopped for a next gen engine from BRL for BM as mentioned years ago and that was often taken as reason/excuse why BM does not get the attention it should have gotten)
Dreamotion is 2 years off of beeing as usfull and stable as Blitz3D. It does not even support bone animation so at least 6+ iterations until this stuff does not break every second time anymore.
Irrlicht: mentioned my points against it above, further have been added by other ones like its inconsitent model feature handling etc
There are only 2 possible solutions at the moment:
Flow -> still quite some time off and so far no further information on availability, price etc
TrueVision 3D: If I am going to use this one, then definitely not with BM as I don't intend to wrap further libraries to really use it (gui libraries, loaders to tools that provide TV3D worlds, ...)
-> Blitz3D that works for a few more years and a Blitz3D SDK that will work as well (the current one has little chance to reach that target anytime soon).
And DX is backward compatible ... This means the current to the last. Not the current to the one that was dropped 6 years ago ... I think all had enough time to get their tech to DX9 generation if they had the least interest in it.
I don't have a problem with an external dll.
If all you have to do is add say, an 'x' in front of all your existing Blitz3d code and everything works the same but in DX9, that would be just fine with me. Why does everyone have to make such a big deal out of that?
And looking at the length of this thread, there is some demand for this?
The length of the thread is because multiple people are posting repeatedly. For example: you and Dreamora. Mostly Dreamora (1/5 of this thread is Dreamora).
Actually, DX9.0c will have a longer life.
Wish all you want. As soon as Microsofts corporate customers complete their transition to Vista, Microsoft are going to drop support for their legacy products (which include XP and DX9) like a bad habit. DX9 is living on borrowed time and you know it, regardless of what you try and tell yourself.
Also every one can download the demo(ok..no linux demo available).
Or a recent demo for that matter. The current BlitzMAX demo is not representative of what the language can do.
So it makes no sense to post in every b3d discussion how good blitzmax is.
I'm not. I'm simply pointing out how ludicrous and idea it is to "update" obsolete software, to newer albeit still obsolete software. I don't know why you subscribe to the kind of gang mentality that would indicate that because I consider Blitz3D a poor language with worse tools, you would automatically assume that I think BlitzMAX is an awesome language with excellent tools. I think I've pointed out many of BlitzMAXes long standing flaws on numerous occasions.
But for me Blitzmax IS NOT a new B3D.
Not for me either. Blitz3D has many, many limitations that BlitzMAX doesn't. Like the much discussed failure to work with Microsofts "Advanced Text Services", thus making it practically useless for (amongst other things) TabletPCs. Also I find it's laughable performance, lack of support for complex geometry, and "every problem can be solved using lists" approach quite absurd.
If he says a simple "Buy Bmax for update", i think he will lose lots of customers.
What customers? The kind that paid 100 bucks 7 years ago and keep pestering him on his forums about how they refuse to acknowledge his decisions, and insult his intelligence? I wonder if he's going to miss them much.
I love coding in Blitz3D. So, that makes me a luddite?
No. Enjoying it makes you masochistic.
Most people on here probably aren't that bothered about creating a game they want to sell for lots of money. It's a hobby mainly.
What? You mean like me?
1. Blitz3D is not that hard coded for DX7
If it's all the same to you, I'm going to takes Mark Sibly's opinion on that over yours. If you have the insight you claim to have in DirectX, and look over the Blitz3D command set, you'll be able to see for yourself how utterly inseparable they are. They even use the same metaphors.
2. Nobody assumes that it is a 2 week kiddie thing. Otherwise nobody would be willing to pay 100$ for it actually (at least not I)
Really? How much do you get paid for two weeks of work? I get paid WAY more than $100.
We know that this transition might take 2-3 months but we believe in Blitz3D and that it is a great language.
It took Evak, Cygnus and an unnamed 3rd party, almost a year to wrap an existing game engine (OGRE). Why on earth would you think that writing one from scratch would take 1/4th the time?
I'll cut you a deal. I'll take a year off work to develop 1 DX9 engine exposing the entire Blitz3D command set, and which will pass any realistic acceptance tests you chose. It will include a rudimentary compiler (much like Blitz3D) and will be feature complete as far as the existing Blitz3D commandset as of today is concerned. In return you will pay me €100.000 for my work.
After the initial work on the engine is complete you can either chose to continue to pay me a set annual fee per user for continued support, or we can agree on some form of open source license.
All you have to do is find 1000 people willing to pay 100 Euros upfront and say 20 Euros a year for support.
PS: for the more professional users:
Well you're wrong, but I suspect you knew that already.
And DX is backward compatible ... This means the current to the last.
Actually it means three versions back. Nice try though.
Not the current to the one that was dropped 6 years ago ...
Then why does the DX9 runtime, released in November 2007 still contain the DX7 runtime? I mean for Microsoft to make available software that they dropped (I assume we're talking support here) 6 years ago seems like sending mixed signals.
I think all had enough time to get their tech to DX9 generation if they had the least interest in it.
Excellent. This we agree on. So the fact that BRL hasn't yet "gotten their tech" to DX9 tells you what exactly?
TrueVision 3D: If I am going to use this one, then definitely not with BM as I don't intend to wrap further libraries to really use it (gui libraries, loaders to tools that provide TV3D worlds, ...)
Eh? Now what am I being accused of? What TV GUI libraries and loaders to tools that provide TV3D worlds ( whatever that means ) have I left unwrapped? To the best of my knowledge, everything that's in there is wrapped.
Flamie could you at least ONCE stop behaving as you name yourself?
Nobody is interested in your 1.5 screen high rants just because you believe in pure pessimism.
childish behavior does not get better just because you are capabile of proofing your rants with objective arguments.
The purpose of this thread is clear, as clear as your personal attempts to destroy it. Sad that there is no real moderation on this board, on the german boards such an active personal attack and flame behavior would lead to one of maximal 3 points to your ban!
If you want to discuss, feel free to make a second thread, same title but "Discussion" at the end so all that want to discuss can do it there!!
I don't want to, I want to use Blitz3D further and extend my Realm Crafter project without having to fear the first beta release due to waves of "can't start, don't see XY, ..."
With the current problem, handling the SVN etc for it will become a trip to hell I don't plan to do.
And the DX install contains DX7 because there are apps that use it.
Sadly MS knows as well that this won't help anywhere unless they write drivers or implement a DX7 emulation layer to the one originally planned for DX9-7 on DX10. DX 10 and 10.1 cards don't do fixed function pipeline as previous generations did and the more AMD and NVIDIA fight for benchmark, the worse the situation will get until Ms is forced to drop DX7 totally due to the raising incompatibilities.
But as as well mentioned: BRLs active ignorance towards DX7 specs helped as well to make having problems. Don't know if these cases were meant to make it more stable or whatever, fact is that they are now causing issues that get worse and worse.
Now what am I being accused of?
Incompetence as near as I can tell. But hey, at least you're not the one being accused of flinging personal insults. Count yourself lucky! :o>
Flamie could you at least ONCE stop behaving as you name yourself?
1. I didn't name myself FlameDuck. I named myself RTS after the assembly mnemonic, if you must know.
2. For future reference
here is the wikipedia article on flaming. You'll notice that flaming is usually considered offensive, so accusing someone of doing it is, a personal insult. Just so you yourself in the future can abstain from hurling personal insults at others you should keep the page bookmarked for future reference.
Nobody is interested in your 1.5 screen high rants just because you believe in pure pessimism.
1. Get a bigger screen.
2. I think you'll find that you've posted more WORDS on this thread than I have. I don't know why you think your long, boring rants are any more enjoyable than mine. At least mine are to the best of my knowledge, factually accurate while yours consist mainly of incoherent rambling.
on the german boards such an active personal attack and flame behavior
No need to be redundant, but at which point exactly have I attacked your person?
I noticed that so far you've failed to respond (meaningfully) to any of my points. Here's an English idiom you might recognize. Pot calling the kettle black?
If you want to discuss, feel free to make a second thread, same title but "Discussion" at the end so all that want to discuss can do it there!!
Now I know you're going to interpret this as a stab at your diminished capacity for logical deduction, but if you didn't want discussion in your ill conceived thread, you probably shouldn't have posted it in the "General Discussion" forum.
Incompetence as near as I can tell. But hey, at least you're not the one being accused of flinging personal insults. Count yourself lucky! :o>
I'm accused of it all the time. Apparently saying anything that disagrees is considered a personal insult now, which is just downright bizarre. If I was insulting someone, I guarantee they would see the difference.
..this guys cooking something interesting, DX9, full set of B3D commands, same name conventions except in front of each command is X, but its not big deal..regarding info, first release is ready and at the moment they preparing documentation for it..nicee...
http://www.rubux.net/ Naughty Alien
Agree! I've been checking it out (in a limited way so far) and it has definite promise.
After all the arguments above, wouldn't it be great if rubux.net manage to pull off a fully working Blitz DX9 engine ;-)
He is the author of PhyX wrapper.
http://rubux.net/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,4/func,view/id,80/catid,9/Does this new DX9 engine require Blitz3D?
How is the stability?
How much does it cost?
Wow! If this pant-punchingly-promising DX9 upstart adds a little extra life to the old lady I'll sleep easier - with or without my wooly, pink underpants on. It'll do well on that strength alone I think - never mind any of the other bells and whistles there might be.
I've yet to see any compatibilty problems with my game so far, but all this chatter about DX version problems isn't making me any younger. 'Smoke without fire' springs to mind and so I'm bracing myself for some trouble ahead. I'll be lucky if I'm finished in another year at this rate - got to be a lot of spanky new DX umpty.0 machines out there by then...eeep.
Happy Sammy, to give you an idea, the Physics wrapper costs less than 40$ USD. So, my guess is that it shouldn't be too expensive. My next hope is that this engine gets ported to BlitzMax ;) Then, I'll move to BlitzMax :P
Can't some of the more talented people just help out with minib3d, open gl performance on a system with a non built in graphics card is fast enought for most people and how many games dont require a good graphics card these days?
Pete Carter got good points =)
Pete: How many systems do not have inbuild GPU ... yes, <= 30% of all systems.
And just to mention that: 6200 and the like are not built in yet they are that bad that an X3100 from Intel will crush them
Thanks for the link for Knightmares Engine thought, looks lots more promissing than Crashmotion3D
Wish all you want. As soon as Microsofts corporate customers complete their transition to Vista, Microsoft are going to drop support for their legacy products (which include XP and DX9) like a bad habit. DX9 is living on borrowed time and you know it, regardless of what you try and tell yourself.
The way things are currently looking, Vista is going to be
skipped by the majority of companies, who either hold on to XP for dear life, or intent to go straight to "windows 7", Vista's successor...
Yeah, Vista will never replace XP, it is just a "testing bed" for Windows 7 technology and that makes sense as wel even to microsoftl as Windows 7 is what Vista was marketed for a very long time with the feature and core modifications etc.
Lets face the truth: If apple weren't a bunch of eye candy XXXX, Microsoft wouldn't even have added the 3D Desktop. It only adds problems, not solving them ... But they were forced to it.
..I had receive reply and this week guys releasing B3D DX9..full set of B3D well known commands/syntax applied, and its working well on Vista as they said..cheers :)
http://rubux.net/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,4/func,view/id,90/catid,9/