BlitzMax In The Industry??

OK,


I had this question for a while. BlitzMax is proven to make pretty much anything any other language can, I don't even think BlitzMax is all that limited unlike the other Blitz langauges. Well then why doesn't more people/companies use BlitzMax?? It's also C++ or C#. I know C++ & C# make optimizing applications easier & with C++ it's easier for memory storing, but BlitzMax is made with C++. So BlitzMax can do half others can do as well. Why not use it commercially more often in the industry?

Because its a minority language LilMain...

It doesnt have a vast amount of resources behind it like Microsoft or Borland compilers do, and receives little to no marketing from BRL to get it out there.

Its still a BASIC language no matter how you dress it up and many... many people in the industry still frown upon BASIC languages (With VB.NET probably been the exception) for whatever reasons they give.

Dabz

OK,

Thanks for that great answer; makes sense to me now.

Speed of the produced code (not really much of an issue with VB .NET), flexibility (again, not an issue), and support. All of the above are really not that good for BlitzMax in comparison to other industry-standard languages like the aforementioned (I know if I name any specific ones, Dreamora will jump on me for not including one or including C++). Documentation in BlitzMax is just awful, I don't think anyone can argue otherwise there, the speed is still less than that of better-documented industry-supported languages as well. Overall, it's really just not worth it for anyone to adopt BlitzMax when they have a good system in place and programmers who are already proficient in a language.

plus, the number of people using it. I doubt a studio could hire 30 odd blitzmax programmers in the same area to make a game with.

I had a telephone interview with a place in home. Talk moved onto what I had done in BlitzMax. His reply was that it was amazing what you could do with interpreted languages these days...

I used Blitz Max for an industrial application, then found it had a memory leak in the Free Gadget command on OSX and had the throw the project away because months later the bug wasnt even acknowledged let alone fixed. When jobs are on the line you just cant rely on middleware development teams like Blitz, especiallly ones that historically do their own thing and cannot be swayed by demand or need of their users.

Luckily for me I resigned that job anyway, but if I was to find myself in the same situation again I would not choose Blitz even if the feature list appears to cover everything.

"interpreted", I hope you drove over there and set fire to his cat!!!!

My current contract for a major independant UK developer actually specifies that the project will be written in Blitzmax.

I haven't had any negative feedback from the industry. A lot of programmers like blitz and use it recreationally.

The industry standard is still C\C++ (despite what flameduck might say!).

Na - couldn't be bothered to go to Hove to do it.

Sorry but that's a very naive answer Dabz, and totally untrue to boot. Blitzmax is very advanced and the only reason big companies use C is because of the years of development and libraries which shorten their dev time considerably. Eventually you'll see the shift from C to something a bit more sensical. Rome wasn't built in a day.

It's neither naive nor untrue in my experience. How long have you been working in the industry to have formed this opposite view?

Over the years, in my PC programming life... I've had many conversations with experienced programmers from all walks of life, and every now and then, some of them come good and end up getting a job doing what they love best... programming.

And not once did they get the job because they knew a minority programming language like BlitzBasic, it was either because they knew VB, Java, C/C++.... I remember Nullmind from the BlitzCoder forums got right into C#, but never found out what happened to him.

If I, right this minute, picked up the phone and phoned a dev company up in my area, and asked for a job because I know how to program in BlitzMax, Blitz3D/+ or even Dark Basic... They'd turn round an say "okay, we'll get back to you", and I'll never hear from them again... its a fact!!!



Advanced against what?... Dark Basic, PureBasic, GLBasic, FreeBasic?

You cannot honestly compare the sheer scale of VB, C/C++/C# or Java to BlitzMax... thats just absurd!!!

And if the truth is known, and if you want me to tell you how it is... I think BlitzMax is out of date... I think it was a has-been even before it had beened!!!

Granted its a great little language, but no one right here right now can tell me its a revolution in the Blitz line of products... because quite frankly... it isnt!

The only thing that makes BlitzMax look good and usable for most experienced devs on here, is through 3rd party plugins or engines... that respectively has nothing to do with BlitzMax or BRL at all!

Dabz

Dabz: yes your're right on that. Blitz would be a better langauge for showing off game design skills, rather than programming ability. If you wanted to get a job ion the games industry, you'd be better off getting up to speed on C++ and use something like Ogre for your graphics engine. Then start phoning companies.

If you had the cash to fund your own development team, then yeah sure, go for Blitz3D or Blitzmax, you can make any type of game you want in them. The reason the industry likes C++ is simply that it makes it easier to give the source code to other studios to port it over to other platforms.

Everyone I know that is an experienced C++/C# user finds Blitzmax extremely limiting in the OO department. Our low level C++ Flow coder has had to do so many work arounds becuase of OO limitations and missing functionality that it has been one of the major causes of delay with getting flow out the door.

It still is very much a basic language, even if it is a flexible one, and experienced C++ coder can find Blitzmax's simplicity very limiting. That has definately been our case. Cygnus, who's our high level Bmax coder had a strong dislike for C# and C++ but over the months of working of Flow he has started to have a grudging respect for those other languages and become somewhat disappointed by blitzmax limitations.

That's not to say that Blitzmax is bad, just that it has a specific audience in mind, plus its not as portable as other languages, making it less than ideal for established developers wanting to develop for multiple platforms including consoles and handhelds.

Thanks guys!

Here's an email I sent to a small indie company that uses BlitzMax for their games.

http://www.anawiki.com/

Here's the email,





I hate how some say BlitzMax isn't worth using then others say nice things about it. It reallt gets me confused, I want the total truth.

Not sure I'd agree there. For something to be a 'has been' then I'd presume it is no longer considered useful. I disagree, I've been using BMax for over a year now. Granted I have been using a 3rd party development tool in conjunction with it (Grey Alien's Framework). I confess to using a VB6 front end for my apps, I suppose that proves even an indie developer sticks to what he knows best for certain areas.

I do not think I would be as close to releasing my product as I am without BMax + Grey's framework. In fact to be able to produce a polished product with relatively little effort would be nigh on impossible within C / C++ - from scratch. Sure, I may have got here, in about 5 years or so.

BMax certainly has it's place in the indie market, not so sure I would have got as far without Grey's framework.... keep up the good work BRL. As far as larger developers not so keen, I suppose it all depends upon the libraries etc. they've already in place.

If you had a new development company without the baggage of existing libraries and experience in other languages... who knows the possibilites....

Lack of portability? Not sure that VB.net and the like port to well to linux ? BMax does. (;-)

It does, depending on the supporting libraries you use. System.Windows.Forms isn't yet complete and other aspects of the .NET framework are still being heavily worked on. The code and compiler work and execute just fine, the problem is with supporting the rest of the framework that people really need, which is difficult but a lot of a progress has been made. In general, .NET-based languages are sort of a cross-platform dream, you compile on one platform and it will work on another platform provided its dependencies have been supplied.

we're not talking about porting to linux, it's other platforms if your game get's big. i.e. DS, PSP, PS2, Xbox360.

If you want your games to be PC only, then fine, stick with Blitz, but you're going to find it very hard getting a professional coding job with a non-indie developer without having good C++ experience.

Welcome to the real world where there are no absolute truths, only opinions and experiences. In the same way that there is no absolute truth about whether Cherry Garcia is a better flavour of Ice Cream than Bohemian Raspberry, there is no absolute truth about a programming language. Everyone has their opinions and everyone has their experiences. All you can do is listen to people's opinions, note their experiences, combine them with your own opinions and experiences ( which should always hold more weight than anyone else's because you're the poor sap who actually has to live with the decision ) and come to an informed decision.

If you're going to want to sit and wait for people to come to a 100% consensus, you'll be waiting for a very long time.

It's a myth that games coded in C++ are magically portable by clicking your fingers and games coded in other languages are not. There are mobile phone versions of several of my games floating around, and they were written in Blitz3D. A friend works for a company which has a number of games already on and in development for XBLA, and he often complains that the amount of work to port a C++ game is often just as much as starting it again from scratch.

Bottom line, if your game is worth porting, the language it's in won't matter. And for most people, it won't happen anyway, so all you'd be doing is coding in a language you didn't like to not increase your chances of getting ported to a platform you were never going to get onto anyway.

Dabz...

we're not talking about trying to get a job by knowing BlitzMax. You're off topic.

We're talking about you, Gabriel, and some major developers being naive. You're stereotyping. And you're also saying to a degree, that games programmed in C++ are automatically gold. They're not. They never will be. It's the people behind the tools. No matter what the tool is. Period. This discussion wasn't about getting a job by using BlitzMax as a credential. That's not what we're talking about.

Now in order to get a job in a game development company that uses C++, then, umm....yes...you would need to know C++. That's common sense. But that also wasn't the question posed by the original author.

To answer the question (which no one did):

It's not used more commercially because C got there first. And it HAD to be that way because BlitzMax is written in C. For major companies to make a switch is COSTLY and they lose years of libraries they've created.



Your statement is dated, invalid, and it just plain irritates me. Btw, I still love you man...just voicing my opinion. :)

Who mentioned Linux? Oo

And to be honest, away from these boards... in the world where we walk and talk and breathe... I have YET to meet anyone that use's Linux as their primary operating system, if at all!

Though I know plenty of people with a DS, PSP, PS2 and an XBox360... countless people infact.



Basically, BlitzMax was released years after it should of been and that was still too early.



And thats where its at... If your going to apply for a programming job (In the industry, non-indie)... I highly doubt just having BlitzMax on your CV will get anywhere.



If you want to make indie games, then its obvious BlitzMax is where its at... If you want to go and work for a big dev company, or even a small software solutions company... Then knowing one of the industry standard languages will get you there. Pure and simple

Dabz

Group hug? hehehe

Dabz

I know of C / C++ coders who have been in the gamers market - they are no longer in the gamers code development market due to the substantial pounds of flesh some game development employers expect. Yes, they still code, and the gamer coding in C/C++ provided them with the tools to jump ship - so I suppose it's all about choices.

Yes, I'm a strong advocate of BMax/B3D due to the speed an indie can develop applications.

At the end of the day coding in any language broadens your horizons, I code mainly in BMax for pleasure coding.... and a splash of B3D now and then for some spice. The key is to reap some enjoyment from whatever your coding in.

You'd be surprised at just who does use Linux as their primary operating system these days.... like my works place. Granted this isn't walking talking breathing blah, but you've now met someone. greetz.

Can I join the group hug ?

Linux is used much more than you think. Linux is used in numerous server OSs because it's VERY stable.

BlitzMax does what it was intended to do. If it doesn't do what you want then you're using the wrong tool. It's like trying to eat soup with a fork.

No one said it would... As I stated before, learn the language of the job you're going after. I can't be more clearer than that.

I suppose that is the problem... Blitz Research havent disclosed who their target audience is for BlitzMax... Is it indie, serious dev, or joe programmer?

*Dabz juggles*

Then the audience collides and we have conversions like this! :)

If you get me! ;)



Sure... come here and me and Chroma will give you a nice sloppy kiss (No tongues)! :D

Dabz

Before that though, despite what John says, you're going to need at least a Masters in Mathematics and/or Dynamics. Because the only people on a development team working in C++ are hard core engine coders, and they're going to have to have a sound understanding of complex spatial mathematics and engineering.

Rubbish. The lions share of BlitzMAX is written in BlitzMAX.

On your CV, the only thing that counts is positive experience. You're never better than your last successful project. Que John Romero.

form an orderly queue..... {;-)

Reality is, you can code an "AAA" title in any lanuage, if it's that good someone will hire a coder to port it to another language or platform.

Chroma, I admire your ambition, but you can't change the reality of the world by wishing unless you've got a killer pair of ruby slippers.

I see we've a Judy fan in the house.... I prefer to code in my bare feet.

We're not talking about lions share or visionary. We're talking about what BlitzMax is written in. Without C, BlitzMax would not exist to write itself in.


Thank you.

BlitzMAX is written in BlitzMAX.

Yes it would. The compiler could have been written in any language. What? You think C was the first programing language ever written? Why do you think it's called C in the first place?

It is strange that people have problems accepting that the Java compiler is written in Java, the Mono C# compiler is written in C# and that the FreePascal compiler is written in... FreePascal. There are even Python implementations written in Python.

You might need another language to bootstrap the development, but that language does not have to be C. Or C++.

But, hey, even the first C compiler MUST have been bootstrapped with a different language, because no other implementation existed. Hmmm. Could that have been B? Or maybe even Assembler?

Must be a horrible thought for the C zealots that "their" language has not been around since the dawn of time...

First there was machine code. Then there was assembly language. Then came higher level languages (Fortran, Lisp, Cobol, C, etc.)

Any language can be written in almost any other previously existing language, even including a previous version of itself (for example a C compiler can be written in another C compiler).

BlitzMax probably could be written in BlitzMax at this point (although I don't think I need to mention how foolish this would be). But the fact is, BlitzMax is NOT written in BlitzMax, but C/C++.

Note: In case you're mistranslating, saying "BlitzMax was written in ______" means "The BlitzMax compiler was written in ______". It NEVER means "The BlitzMax default function library was written in ______".

But it wasn't. The compiler was written in C. Therefore BlitzMax was written in C.


I never said C was the first programming language or asked why it's called C. That's you just trying to show everyone how you think you know everything. If you're trying to enhance your intellectual stature on these forums, it's backfiring in your face.


Thank you.


He knows that, he's just being a jerk as usual.