Have anyone of you tried to develope a game together with another Blitzer? I really don't mean those communityprojects or fun things but as indiedevelopers pushing hard together to release a commercial title. I'm thinking about finding a partner for SOLO development instead of working all alone but I'd like to hear about some experience in this area (alos if people would be interested in this just mess me as well)
Dev together?
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Dev together? You see a lot of collaboration in the mod communities, but this community seems oddly uncooperative. Probably because there are lots of programmers and not many artists.
But hey, I could willingly step down the codechair for a while as I think I manage pretty well as an artist/sound designer and designer.. but you're right, don't see much of that in here which is bad.
Collaboration on code is tricky, I think. Every coder has his own style, and that might make it tricky for other coders to read. At least, it would be true for me .. :P
True, but I believe it could work if coding a lot in objects and also the fact that you are coding together you automatically gets aware of making it more understandable with more comments and higher readability.
Also, as I say, it doesnt mean that people would code together but instead of just buying a few assets one could work closely together at all time, inspiring each other and working close with designparts.
Also, as I say, it doesnt mean that people would code together but instead of just buying a few assets one could work closely together at all time, inspiring each other and working close with designparts.
Not a lot of people here have any skills to speak of, so I don't really see much point in working with other people from this site. If you want to work in a team environment, I would use a more robust language like C or C++ -- go some place where you will see actual talent.
Or do what I did, start as an artist and learn to program.
Or do what I did, start as an artist and learn to program.
Or do what I did, start as an artist and learn to program.
Think I already have done that. Personally I find my quality of work pretty good and have seen some work in here match that as well.
Have anyone of you tried to develope a game together with another Blitzer?
Yes. I'd like to hear about some experience in this area (alos if people would be interested in this just mess me as well)
Collaboration is tricky. Generally I'd say collaboration works best when not done online. In my experience, people who can meet face to face are the best collaborators. Also having software which supports collaboration (Groupware, Trac etc.) and a common process, and standards that everyone understands and agrees on. Give it a go and see what happens
Was hoping that would be a link to "Project Plasma".
I would use a more robust language like C or C++
This is a very naive statement.
Not a lot of people here have any skills to speak of
can't see how that's constructive. Just a bit elitist. can't see how that's constructive. Just a bit elitist.
I guess you must be one of the people I'm talking about, if you're bothered by it. This is a very naive statement.
Sure is naive to want proper constructors, operator overloading, method callbacks, and control of how memory is allocated and released. I guess that one coder could create the base structure and communicate to other coders which methods should be made, what they should accept, do and return. But is it smart to have more than one coder working on the base/hiarchy/structure?
If you want control of memory allocation use a outdated language like C++.
Modern language don't allow that anymore, that breaks any OO design paradigm of the past 10 years and its pure naivity to assume that new languages will remains broken as the OOP hack layer to C widely known as C++.
Get used to it or step back from programming now if you are not willing to become a pure linux user.
And even those seem to realize that SmartPointers are the way to go not iditioc and inacceptable manual new / delete stuff. SmartPointers are "no control for you" as well.
Outside the linux world, unmanaged languages will vanish within 5 years if not earlier (.NET on Windows, objective C on Apple. Everything else might look like it allows allocation but it will be one or the other that decides the allocation by the date that Vistas successor is released in 2010 / 2011)
Modern language don't allow that anymore, that breaks any OO design paradigm of the past 10 years and its pure naivity to assume that new languages will remains broken as the OOP hack layer to C widely known as C++.
Get used to it or step back from programming now if you are not willing to become a pure linux user.
And even those seem to realize that SmartPointers are the way to go not iditioc and inacceptable manual new / delete stuff. SmartPointers are "no control for you" as well.
Outside the linux world, unmanaged languages will vanish within 5 years if not earlier (.NET on Windows, objective C on Apple. Everything else might look like it allows allocation but it will be one or the other that decides the allocation by the date that Vistas successor is released in 2010 / 2011)
So what logic do you use to come to this conclusion, Dreamora?
That you are a Linux user or doomed with your hope that unmanaged is what you will see much longer or are one of those Pro C++ developer not realizing that a managed environment is the only way to guarantee correct and memory leak free code (ok not in BM due to missing cyclic ref check but with any professional managed language)
Microsoft already planned to make Vista pure .NET with sandbox execution of insecure (unmanaged) code but the overhaul for the kernel was a little too much work and will happen with the next major Windows Version (forgot its codename, check the MS page).
Microsoft already planned to make Vista pure .NET with sandbox execution of insecure (unmanaged) code but the overhaul for the kernel was a little too much work and will happen with the next major Windows Version (forgot its codename, check the MS page).
I might be very new in here Mr.Cower and can assure you I do not really know who actually can produce and who cannot. Within these 9 months I been learning B3D I've now released 2 commercial titles and I can honestly say that I've been looking for something you might have created but cannot find anything. Yes I know you have contributed a lot to this community with modules and such but still in the end this is about developing games.
I might be wrong but having such attitude towards the quality in here just doesn't seem right unless you have a lot more to give/show. Well, now, I guess this wasn't about that in the first place and I also guess you've made your point that people in here are pretty bad, but I beg to differ. During the development of my 2 first games I've found both excellent professional help and support in here and am willing to say that the expertise in here is pretty high.
As I'm not even a year old in here I guess I'm another one of those you are talking about.
I might be wrong but having such attitude towards the quality in here just doesn't seem right unless you have a lot more to give/show. Well, now, I guess this wasn't about that in the first place and I also guess you've made your point that people in here are pretty bad, but I beg to differ. During the development of my 2 first games I've found both excellent professional help and support in here and am willing to say that the expertise in here is pretty high.
As I'm not even a year old in here I guess I'm another one of those you are talking about.
That you are a Linux user or doomed with your hope that unmanaged is what you will see much longer or are one of those Pro C++ developer not realizing that a managed environment is the only way to guarantee correct and memory leak free code (ok not in BM due to missing cyclic ref check but with any professional managed language)
I asked for logic, not ad hominems. Your odd belief that you cannot get memory leaks in a managed environment is most unusual, considering -- get this -- the underlying code for that managed environment is still written in an unmanaged language. If fault-less underlying code can be produced, then I think it's completely possible as well that software can be developed correctly and without memory leaks in an unmanaged language. You can either acknowledge that or go on with your rather peculiar belief that your managed languages are perfect in every way.Try again.
I might be very new in here Mr.Cower and can assure you I do not really know who actually can produce and who cannot. Within these 9 months I been learning B3D I've now released 2 commercial titles and I can honestly say that I've been looking for something you might have created but cannot find anything. Yes I know you have contributed a lot to this community with modules and such but still in the end this is about developing games.
You're mistaken about one thing, and that is what this "is about." I don't make games, I develop middleware. BlitzMax is a generic programming language that happens to have code provided that appeals to some developers of 2D games. Just because you do one thing does not mean I'm going to do it too. Just because you do one thing does not mean I'm going to do it too.
Let me clarify my last sentence. This post is about developing games.
You've made your point, now let the discussion about actually developing games together in here continue.
Oh, mainly studied computational science with a head of SE institute called Bertrand Meyer, if this name is any known to you (if you have any OO background you should, otherwise you are one of those "OO for dumwits" readers most likely or don't know more on real OO than C++ beginner tutorials show you).
So quite little to do with "believe" but more with higher education in computational science.
You are right that the underlying system might have memory leaks. But its easy to guarantee that the amount and chance of leaks there is of that many magnitudes below your own unmanaged code (due to the simple and hopefully even for you understandable fact that a few hundred tousand devs find more leaks than you as individual with your individual code ever will be able to even if you search for them a few aeons) that it makes any reason against using managed code just for lazyness or "I am god, I rule my world" is totally pointless
From what I remember, you used Blitz3D as well and never had any problem with the fact that the core managed your memory usage.
Sure you could request a clean, but still, Blitz3D managed the memory, you were only allowed to use it and request it, no actual control.
Especially since you don't target Windows ME, the last OS where you actually had any control over memory without having a lower level memory manager controlling your doings.
Now, you can only request the kernel to do it but thats it. Try to do stuff not allowed in that area of main memory and the OS will show you where apps with this kind of programing unparadigms have to go. Correctly, nirvana, abyss or however you please to call it.
But as mentioned, its naturally free to you to do it the way you want it to do.
The languages to do so are there, but please stop assuming that upcomming and modern languages use paradigms that were even old and inacceptable when C++ introduced them and sadly made many to believe that this is the real way to go in object oriented software design.
So quite little to do with "believe" but more with higher education in computational science.
You are right that the underlying system might have memory leaks. But its easy to guarantee that the amount and chance of leaks there is of that many magnitudes below your own unmanaged code (due to the simple and hopefully even for you understandable fact that a few hundred tousand devs find more leaks than you as individual with your individual code ever will be able to even if you search for them a few aeons) that it makes any reason against using managed code just for lazyness or "I am god, I rule my world" is totally pointless
From what I remember, you used Blitz3D as well and never had any problem with the fact that the core managed your memory usage.
Sure you could request a clean, but still, Blitz3D managed the memory, you were only allowed to use it and request it, no actual control.
Especially since you don't target Windows ME, the last OS where you actually had any control over memory without having a lower level memory manager controlling your doings.
Now, you can only request the kernel to do it but thats it. Try to do stuff not allowed in that area of main memory and the OS will show you where apps with this kind of programing unparadigms have to go. Correctly, nirvana, abyss or however you please to call it.
But as mentioned, its naturally free to you to do it the way you want it to do.
The languages to do so are there, but please stop assuming that upcomming and modern languages use paradigms that were even old and inacceptable when C++ introduced them and sadly made many to believe that this is the real way to go in object oriented software design.
Oh for goodness sake put your willys away and get back on topic...
There's no reason why you couldn't have a blitz dev team, however, as flame said, ideally you need to be face to face.
The other problem is when you start and your partner gets bored of the project and just bails.
You'll need to have very good communication, especially if you get something written and actually need to start talking money, who did what, who deserves what etc etc.
Anyway, I'm sure it's the kind of thing you can work out, best of luck.
There's no reason why you couldn't have a blitz dev team, however, as flame said, ideally you need to be face to face.
The other problem is when you start and your partner gets bored of the project and just bails.
You'll need to have very good communication, especially if you get something written and actually need to start talking money, who did what, who deserves what etc etc.
Anyway, I'm sure it's the kind of thing you can work out, best of luck.
In some ways AJirenius and Noel could have practicly already worked together on a project. I dont know if he used it or not, but I remember AJirenius asking about a free particle system and Lotus being recomended.
It has to be said that if Noel posts something on the code achives, its nearly always worth a download, (Probably at least half the ppl here use his alternative Lists or Vector class). Equaly, I was impressed with the speed AJirenius produced a product, (for one of the Comps somewhere)
When it comes down to it, the two of you are probably ideal candidates for a Dev project, with AJirenius doing the design plan and Noel either saying its not possible or producing well writen "middleware" objects for the project.
PS. @ Noel, whats with the goggles?
It has to be said that if Noel posts something on the code achives, its nearly always worth a download, (Probably at least half the ppl here use his alternative Lists or Vector class). Equaly, I was impressed with the speed AJirenius produced a product, (for one of the Comps somewhere)
When it comes down to it, the two of you are probably ideal candidates for a Dev project, with AJirenius doing the design plan and Noel either saying its not possible or producing well writen "middleware" objects for the project.
PS. @ Noel, whats with the goggles?
I'm pretty sure I have seen a few of these. Definitely troublesome finding multi-talented teams on these here forums, since all the people here have bought Blitz, which is mostly for programming as opposed to artwork / animation. The other problem is that most people here have their own objectives they don't really want to put on hold for any significant amount of time.
That is why posts about team requests should be really detailed. It is possible that someone is working on a similar project, so could be interested in joining forces.
Bottom line, though: The more general indie game dev sites would give you better luck in terms of finding a bigger team.
As for collaboration, I think people here are very helpful and collaborative outside of general discussion.
That is why posts about team requests should be really detailed. It is possible that someone is working on a similar project, so could be interested in joining forces.
Bottom line, though: The more general indie game dev sites would give you better luck in terms of finding a bigger team.
As for collaboration, I think people here are very helpful and collaborative outside of general discussion.
I agree with CS_TBL, that Collaboration on code is tricky due to every coder having a different style. This motivated me to write AOBPwB3D in an attempt to produce 'a coding standard.' Needless to say it is a tough sell.
H&K: The goggles, they do nothing.
Noel may have made some good modules but he's always been seriously abrasive I'm afraid. I wouldn't make a sandwich with the guy let alone a game...
AJirenius: Yes there are loads of skilled musicians, artists and programmers on these forums. Some are busy with other projects and others may be free now or soon. Good luck with your mission, I'm looking forward to seeing what you make next. How's your current game doing btw?
AJirenius: Yes there are loads of skilled musicians, artists and programmers on these forums. Some are busy with other projects and others may be free now or soon. Good luck with your mission, I'm looking forward to seeing what you make next. How's your current game doing btw?
Hi Grey. The game is at the publisher now for approval (test panel making their final decision whether it's finished or not). About my next game I'm going back and forth whether I should use 2D or 3D. I know 3D is harder to achieve same "casual" quality but if it's done right I might have an excellent and beautiful game.
2D on the other hand could help me spit this game out much earlier, but then I might start reading into BMax instead as there's a lot more to win with that language.
I might write you a letter Grey regarding some questions I have about your framework and design in general if thats ok (just need to get home and settle down).
2D on the other hand could help me spit this game out much earlier, but then I might start reading into BMax instead as there's a lot more to win with that language.
I might write you a letter Grey regarding some questions I have about your framework and design in general if thats ok (just need to get home and settle down).
> "...but he's always been seriously abrasive I'm afraid."
That kind of god-complex is quite common among programmers; esp. among those who really like system, ahem: "robust" languages like C++ or who (have to) use them daily. You can have a nice evening out with tech support and technical documentation people, but certainly not with such programmer types.
But according to my job experience, the same is also true for most MDs, by the way. Usually only surgeons and nurses are fun to be around, but certainly not chief physicians. (I have worked in pharmaceutical IT and in a clinic before, in case you wonder.)
As for the team development: I would not want to work on a project with folks that I do not know personally. The "chemistry" is extremely important to me, and having had a beer together really helps a "long distance team" to stay together as a team.
That kind of god-complex is quite common among programmers; esp. among those who really like system, ahem: "robust" languages like C++ or who (have to) use them daily. You can have a nice evening out with tech support and technical documentation people, but certainly not with such programmer types.
But according to my job experience, the same is also true for most MDs, by the way. Usually only surgeons and nurses are fun to be around, but certainly not chief physicians. (I have worked in pharmaceutical IT and in a clinic before, in case you wonder.)
As for the team development: I would not want to work on a project with folks that I do not know personally. The "chemistry" is extremely important to me, and having had a beer together really helps a "long distance team" to stay together as a team.
AJirenius: Sure email away and I'll see if I can help. Good luck with your game. You could try 2D for a change BMax is great to program in once you use the OOP properly and probably Blitz3D will seem annoying by comparision afterwards - I could never got back to BlitzPlus.
Winni: I took some risks and worked with people I didn't know but it was based on friendship built up here and it turned out really well in all cases :-)
Winni: I took some risks and worked with people I didn't know but it was based on friendship built up here and it turned out really well in all cases :-)