What are the chances of an initial release of Max3D appearing for xmas?
No?
Yes?
No?
Yes?
Max3D For Christmas?
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Max3D For Christmas? None
Mark must be near some level of completion for it, atleast?
How long have we been waiting now? 2-3 years?
How long have we been waiting now? 2-3 years?
Youve been waiting 2-3 years?
Why?
There are enough alternatives out there.
Why?
There are enough alternatives out there.
I thought Max3D had been cancelled, and he was making more of a game builder style product.
Groundhog Day, anyone?
[edit] I thought the same as Oddball. Although, I didn't read Mark's worklog too closely, as I'm not in the market for Max3D, anyway.
[edit] I thought the same as Oddball. Although, I didn't read Mark's worklog too closely, as I'm not in the market for Max3D, anyway.
Yeah he's making a more fully featured game creation package, based around Max. I think it's a good idea, but it will be years away.
I know there are other alternatives. I guess I just want to see what Max3D will be like.
I never once read anywhere that Mark had cancelled Max3D. Can someone point me to where he said this?
I never once read anywhere that Mark had cancelled Max3D. Can someone point me to where he said this?
There are enough alternatives out there.
Not really.. not if you want a userfriendly cross-platform solution.
I'm re-releasing Holiday Bonus GOLD for Christmas, you can have that instead, it'll make you happer.
Quoted directly from Mark's worklog:
The way things were going, Max3D would have ended up as 'yet another 3D API', along the lines of B3D, Ogre, DB, etc. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something that just doesn't hold enough interest for me anymore.
The fact is, Blitz3D and its peers only solve a bit of the game creation problem, and I really want to aim for something that solves more - something significantly higher level.
I have many thoughts on how to achieve this, but key amongst them is:
* Custom tools/editors. I have tried many times to somehow 'extract' portal information, shader-friendly material properties and the like from 3rd party app files like 3DS etc, but to no avail. Enough! I'll do my own editors that will be able to produce exactly the data I need. This also means being able to add whizzy stuff like sound effects to surfaces etc etc.
* It will include a 'game editor', however...
* It will remain fundamentally code driven. If you own a Mac and haven't played with 'interface builder' yet, I encourage you do so now to see what I mean. Interface builder takes quite a radically different approach to RAD design - instead of generating code, it really just connects up existing code. This gives you huge flexibility to customize absolutely everything without the headache of maintaining sync with generated code.
This is of course quite a departure from what I've done in the past, but it's something I've always wanted to have a go at and, if not now, when?!?
More on all this as it develops...
The fact is, Blitz3D and its peers only solve a bit of the game creation problem, and I really want to aim for something that solves more - something significantly higher level.
I have many thoughts on how to achieve this, but key amongst them is:
* Custom tools/editors. I have tried many times to somehow 'extract' portal information, shader-friendly material properties and the like from 3rd party app files like 3DS etc, but to no avail. Enough! I'll do my own editors that will be able to produce exactly the data I need. This also means being able to add whizzy stuff like sound effects to surfaces etc etc.
* It will include a 'game editor', however...
* It will remain fundamentally code driven. If you own a Mac and haven't played with 'interface builder' yet, I encourage you do so now to see what I mean. Interface builder takes quite a radically different approach to RAD design - instead of generating code, it really just connects up existing code. This gives you huge flexibility to customize absolutely everything without the headache of maintaining sync with generated code.
This is of course quite a departure from what I've done in the past, but it's something I've always wanted to have a go at and, if not now, when?!?
More on all this as it develops...
It's in his worklog. He doesn't actually say it's cancelled, just that it's becoming something quite different.
EDIT: Quote removed, no need to quote it twice.
EDIT: Quote removed, no need to quote it twice.
I dont get what all the fuss is about, MiniB3D seems to be coming along just great (so far) Its certainly capable enough to make a game in..
What are the chances of an initial release of Max3D appearing for xmas?
Depends on which Christmas. MiniB3D seems to be coming along just great (so far) Its certainly capable enough to make a game in..
That certainly depends on which type of game you want to make. If Max3D doesn't make it until christmas, you can probably get a Tech 5 engine licence from John Carmack instead for a couple of million dollars... :)
I think you'll have to give it quite a bit more time considering the extend of Mark's new vision for what he wants to achieve with it - he's going to have to code various editors and quite a lot of functionality on top of a fully functioning 3d api. You'll be waiting not only for Max3D but also for an entire toolset.
We're having turkey.
You'll be waiting not only for Max3D but also for an entire toolset.
I think is better release FIRST the 3Dmax engine, and then the toolset: In Blitz3D, the community provided itself about tools and editors.
Mark, please, release first (and soon) the engine, and THEN, your editors : 2 years without a official 3D module for the great BlitzMax is too much :(
I don't think so and i would even less expect anything which runs reasonable in a real world scenario.
i see alot of, "why max3d, plenty of alternative" remarks. Obviously there are many alternatives. I think one reason people want to see a 3D module from Mark Sibly , is because it will create a standard for 3D in BlitzMax, and thats important because then users can use it as a cummunity, much like B3D, when someone asks how to you acheive THIS, you know precisely how to answer, or you can look in the code archives and know that a code snippet will integrate into your work easily if you want it to, or your contributons will be used easily.
If you use ogre for example, youre going to be posting more on the ogre boards than here perhaps, and I would like to see the community stay on these boards as much as possible.
So im also waiting for a 3D module for BMAX, that could be the standard here.. from Mark or anyone else.
If you use ogre for example, youre going to be posting more on the ogre boards than here perhaps, and I would like to see the community stay on these boards as much as possible.
So im also waiting for a 3D module for BMAX, that could be the standard here.. from Mark or anyone else.
Really?
I don't think that there are a lot of alternatives. Actually i think the opposite is the case and that exactly these alternatives are still missing for BlitzMax.
How are these alternatives called which are easy to use, powerful enough, supporting 3d and physics and working well together with BlitzMax on all three platforms?
I don't think that there are a lot of alternatives. Actually i think the opposite is the case and that exactly these alternatives are still missing for BlitzMax.
How are these alternatives called which are easy to use, powerful enough, supporting 3d and physics and working well together with BlitzMax on all three platforms?
If you use ogre for example, youre going to be posting more on the ogre boards than here perhaps, and I would like to see the community stay on these boards as much as possible.
That seems counter-productive to me. Why is it an advantage to only be able to ask questions to people with the same language when using ( since it was your example ) Ogre, lets you discuss, ask and answer questions with a much broader collection of people? The Blitz community is one of the best narrow communities there is, but I've always felt that the biggest disadvantage to a language like Blitz is the inability to mingle with programmers on a broader scale because of the Blitz-centric way some things are done. ( Blitz3D's notion of surfaces and brushes being a good example of something other programmers would look at you like you were talking Serbo-Croat if you mentioned. )
when someone asks how to you acheive THIS, you know precisely how to answer, or you can look in the code archives and know that a code snippet will integrate into your work easily if you want it to, or your contributons will be used easily.
Unless they're a very inexperienced programmer ( and if they are, why are they using Ogre? ) any programmer should be able to see straight past a few syntax variations in most of the common languages. C++, C#, Java, VB, Delphi, BlitzMax, scripting languages like Lua and Python, and maybe even others are all so similar at the kind of basic level you're going to get on forums that I can't believe anyone would have problems with it.
It's not like you're going to ask how to enable anisotropic filtering in Ogre and someone's going to give you some massive Java class, complete with multithreading and reflection to work through.
Stop nit picking :) if you want to talk about a dozen engines every day, be my guest. I would rather discuss just one standard. Maybe see alot of usefull modules like Blitztrees Max or somthing, would be nice to have the module made in Max as well for low level modifcations perhaps. Im just in favor of a main standard. This wouldnt prevent anyone, like yourself from deciding not to use it , obviously.
Heh, I just hope people like yourself aren't disappointed if it doesn't become "the standard" after you've waited so long for it.
What would be even better would be a cross platform browser plug-in to allow you to have Blitz applications based on the web - kind of like Flash or Flex. What do you think?
What would be even better would be a cross platform browser plug-in to allow you to have Blitz applications based on the web - kind of like Flash or Flex. What do you think?
OSAKIT and iGLoader do this already, ie. allow your blitz game or app to be playable via a web browser.
He said crossplatfrom and it's always a difference if you come up with a third party plugin or not.
Yep, cross platform is really important - this is the future of the web.
What we need is a runtime that allows Blitz apps to be compiled on the client side. It wouldn't be feasible to develop web apps with Blitz when each download takes maybe 17MB - this isn't good for the user download time or the server bandwidth. Some type of runtime that can compile the Blitz code within the browser before running would reduce bandwidth and download issues significantly.
What we need is a runtime that allows Blitz apps to be compiled on the client side. It wouldn't be feasible to develop web apps with Blitz when each download takes maybe 17MB - this isn't good for the user download time or the server bandwidth. Some type of runtime that can compile the Blitz code within the browser before running would reduce bandwidth and download issues significantly.
I keep reading about all these wonderful 3D alternatives to non-existent Max3D. If they are so good and powerful and nice, how come I can't see plenty of games written in BlitzMAX and any of other 3D solutions?
Even after all these years I can see what most people still want and why they want it. Basically, they want the stability, the ease and the productivity of Blitz3D in BlitzMax environment. They partially have it only with MiniB3D or B3D SDK, but the keyword is *partially*. We are still far away from the Blitz3D on steroids, which BMax should've been from beginning.
Barney
Even after all these years I can see what most people still want and why they want it. Basically, they want the stability, the ease and the productivity of Blitz3D in BlitzMax environment. They partially have it only with MiniB3D or B3D SDK, but the keyword is *partially*. We are still far away from the Blitz3D on steroids, which BMax should've been from beginning.
Barney
I'm not really expecting Max3D ever anymore. I think the reason people want Max3D so badly is that Blitz3D was suck a great product. We want something up-to-date from the same guy.
It'll be a nice surprise if it ever comes, but I'm not really expecting it to.
It'll be a nice surprise if it ever comes, but I'm not really expecting it to.
Gee, this place does not change at all, ever, does it? ;o)
same old same old
Told you so! <sigh>
same old same old
Told you so! <sigh>
I think one reason people want to see a 3D module from Mark Sibly , is because it will create a standard for 3D in BlitzMax,
I beg to differ. You think that BlitzMAX is going to come along and all of the sudden, people who have spent YEARS integrating a 3rd party 3D engine is going to just abandon all that work and switch to Max3D? That would be absurd. I'm afraid the only people who are going to switch to Max3D are the same people who aren't going to do anything with. How are these alternatives called which are easy to use, powerful enough, supporting 3d and physics and working well together with BlitzMax on all three platforms?
Not everyone needs (or even wants) all of those things. I would rather discuss just one standard.
Why? Ignoring for a second the idea that there couldn't possibly exist a standard 3D engine - why would you want to limit your understanding to just one tool? If they are so good and powerful and nice, how come I can't see plenty of games written in BlitzMAX and any of other 3D solutions?
Probably for the same reason you don't see plenty of games written in Blitz3D - despite it being a much more mature product, that's been on the market longer and has a reasonably flexible and complete toolchain. Yet the only games that really come to mind are Naked War and Best Friends. Gee, this place does not change at all, ever, does it? ;o)
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I think the golden age for 3D development was around 2000-2004. Small teams had a fighting chance, and projects like Counter-Strike and Red Orchestra became commercially successful. With the increased complexity of engine design and production pipelines, I don't think it's realistic for one person to design a complete 3D solution with all tools included. We have two people, and we only aim to provide the level editor, and it's still incredibly hard.
It would be accurate to say that shaders pretty much killed indie development. This is not because they are too hard to program, but because shader engines are a convoluted mess of multiple unsatisfactory techniques. This includes engines like Unreal Engine 3, which has 250,000 lines of rendering code and uses stencil shadows, shadow maps, lightmaps, and cubemap lighting. This is necessary because none of those techniques are actually capable of providing satisfactory shadows.
I'm sure Mark could do it given enough time, but it would take so long that Max3D will be obsolete before it is even released.
It would be accurate to say that shaders pretty much killed indie development. This is not because they are too hard to program, but because shader engines are a convoluted mess of multiple unsatisfactory techniques. This includes engines like Unreal Engine 3, which has 250,000 lines of rendering code and uses stencil shadows, shadow maps, lightmaps, and cubemap lighting. This is necessary because none of those techniques are actually capable of providing satisfactory shadows.
I'm sure Mark could do it given enough time, but it would take so long that Max3D will be obsolete before it is even released.
Yep, so back to 2D for me....
I think Mark has done a brilliant Job at BMax, he has created an object based BASIC, that is capable of linking with other more "common" modern languages, and using Engines developed on those platforms.
That I know of there are 3d party wrappers for, Ogre 3D, TV3D and Irrlicht3D. Directly written access for Dreamotion3D, and B3D, and Leadwerks Engine. As well as our community open sorce MiniB3D.
If some of the clever people here put their minds to it, they could probably wrap XNA, and even I, with my total ingnorance of C++, made a start at a wrapper for DarkSDK, (which I gaveup on when B3DSdk came out)
If I switched to c++ I would have practicly have less selection.
Now if you do a search back though my posts, you are sure to find posts, where I ask for, nee demand, that Mark writes a 3D engine for Bmax, and in all this time Ive been telling myself that I couldnt start my project until then, and instead have just doodeled with the language, (and gone through Eliza3d, Dreamotion, MiniB3D, Irrlicht, DarkSDK and B3DSDK).
And have I written anything?
Go-on, guess.
Now, can anyone here, hand on heart, say that its Marks fault for not doing Max3D, that I havent written anything?
Now, Im not really that bothered that I havent written anything, cos Im not doing it as a proffessional, but eitherway, its still down to me.
That I know of there are 3d party wrappers for, Ogre 3D, TV3D and Irrlicht3D. Directly written access for Dreamotion3D, and B3D, and Leadwerks Engine. As well as our community open sorce MiniB3D.
If some of the clever people here put their minds to it, they could probably wrap XNA, and even I, with my total ingnorance of C++, made a start at a wrapper for DarkSDK, (which I gaveup on when B3DSdk came out)
If I switched to c++ I would have practicly have less selection.
Now if you do a search back though my posts, you are sure to find posts, where I ask for, nee demand, that Mark writes a 3D engine for Bmax, and in all this time Ive been telling myself that I couldnt start my project until then, and instead have just doodeled with the language, (and gone through Eliza3d, Dreamotion, MiniB3D, Irrlicht, DarkSDK and B3DSDK).
And have I written anything?
Go-on, guess.
Now, can anyone here, hand on heart, say that its Marks fault for not doing Max3D, that I havent written anything?
Now, Im not really that bothered that I havent written anything, cos Im not doing it as a proffessional, but eitherway, its still down to me.
Personally, I'd like to see a 'proper' multi-platform (especially Mac) 3d+Physics module for BlitzMax developed by BRL. MiniB3D is headed in the right direction, but performance is lacking for the apps I'm interested in developing.
I suppose the real question is, what drives Mark Sibly these days? He seems to be motivated not by potential financial gains, but rather personal technical gratification. And Max3D, as many of us imagine it, is not on his agenda. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that - it's just up to us if we want to go along for the ride or not.
I suppose the real question is, what drives Mark Sibly these days? He seems to be motivated not by potential financial gains, but rather personal technical gratification. And Max3D, as many of us imagine it, is not on his agenda. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that - it's just up to us if we want to go along for the ride or not.
..I figure out that its much more easy and nicer to 'dance' with JME in nice Eclipse environment,then putting my hopes in to something what we even dont know what will look like anyway(Max3D)...so..until Max3D pop up..I have pretty nice and powerful toy to play with..if somehow Max3D never see day light, well..thats fine..JME working just fine as a multiplatform system..no loss..
I think Mini3D will be renamed as Max3D in future when it is completed and optimized. In fact you are already using "Max3D". Looking forward to this. :)