B3D and AAA Publishers

..honestly, let say if one small team produce 3D game with very good looking levels, physics and maximum what can get out of DX7 regarding VFX, and of course that game has interesting gameplay, will big publishers take that game since its developed in B3D?? Is B3D as itself, limitation in order to deal with big publishers (EA, UbiSoft, etc..?)?

Publisher won't give a toss. They won't even ask if you don't tell them.

If you manage to make something that looks good enough in B3D then why should they care?

just don't say its b3d ;)

imho a game is not better when coded in c++. this does not say anything about quality. but noone knows how the big p's think of it.

i think you have to give it a try ;)

Why on earth not? Why is everyone so insecure about this?

Most people I've spoken to (in the industry) have a lot of respect for Blitz. Many programmers use it for recreational coding.

A good game is a good game regardless the language used to make it.
The important thing is that the game/program:
1. do is goal
2. sells

"1. do is goal" ????

I wouldnt have though the publisher would be too worried about what its written in, as long as it is fun & is of a high standard.

Although saying that, I suspect most AAA publishers would be keen to know weather there would be a future market on other platforms for your game too. C++ would certainly make the actual game code more portable than blitz as its not relying on a unique language with a built in engine relying on windows & DX.

You don't actually code in C++ do you? Maybe C++ has changed in the last 5 or so years, but otherwise the idea that a game written in C++ is more portable than one written in any other language, is absurd. When porting a game, it is usually rewritten from scratch by a different (ie more experienced on that platform) developer.

The only reason most developers are still using C++ (as opposed to for example C#) is for legacy reasons. It's the language all of their other stuff is written in, and rewriting it would be a huge undertaking, and would require testing it from scratch.

Sorry: I mean '1. the program works perfectly'

>just don't say its b3d ;)
>Why on earth not? Why is everyone so insecure about this?

i am not insecure - but do you know how the publishers think of it? no! thats why i would tell them only if they ask. thats all.

>A good game is a good game regardless the language used to make it.

100% agree.

I don't know what you were thinking, but C++ is much more portable than Blitz3D. I've written C++ code that compiles without modification on Mac/Linux/Windows, so no, it's not absurd.

There are several reasons C++ is still used:
- "Legacy reasons", as FlameDuck said
- Speed - C++ is still used as the high standard when comparing the speed of other languages
- Portability - C++ code can be written for practically any known platform

It's true that C++ is very old now, and it's true that some BASIC users have a fierce aversion to C++, but the fact is in the games industry there are still many good reasons to use it.

your publisher will want all source code, and will want to know what software, tools and libs you are using from the start. This will all crop up when developing a AAA title since you will be expected to go over the design and technical docs with the publisher before negotiating a contract with them.

There's a good chance they will frown at B3D since a AAA game is more likely to need to be portable than a budget indie game.

Tech docs usualy go into a lot of detail about tools and libs and the execution of your game code, down the specifying what file formats your using, and which languages, IDE and artist tools.

C++ is way more portable, and a decent established engine framework like torque or Ogre requires little work to port to other platforms.

A true AAA title is likely to end up on a console, and there is no way to get a B3D game on one of those.

There are plenty of more serious hurdles you have to cross first, like having a proven team with sucessfully published commercial titles under their belt. A proven team means a team that has already worked together, not a collection of developers in a new team that hasn't worked together before.

I also think a lot of publishers would question your choice of a basic language, and it would give an impression of amaturishness. With AAA publishers it also helps to have a central place of business where your team works, remote teams don't work too well, and actual office space means they can visit, hold meetings with you and get a sense of your commitment and professionalism.

So its very unlikely a B3D game would get a chance as a commercial AAA game, but would most likely be ok for proof of concept prototyping.

It didn't seem to cause JP any problems. I'm pretty sure he wrote Future Tactics in B3D and that was ported to the XBox. Perhaps it wasn't the final release version of FT that was in B3D, but I have it around here somewhere and I think it was.

and sticky balls, and that (concept) got published (and beaten with a bent stick).

I dont really, not any more (not since uni), but C++/C# whatever, my point is they are widely used in the industry. I do know they (C++ & C#) are virtually a must-know for almost every (good) game programming job advert that i have ever seen.

What i was saying about portability is if you are porting in the same language all the bits that actually talk to the graphics, sound, control hardware etc would obviously need an overhaul. However vast sections of the game code eg. the ai, game logic, event system, physics (if not hw specific) etc could remain the same regardless of platform. A conversion team is unlikely to re-write the entire mechanics of a game (unless they absolutelty have to), just the bits that need it. (Assuming its a structured program with good docs :)

That said, I agree with you, that if a games is good enough and they think its worth investing in they probably would without question, even though it would require a lot more work to re-write the entire game.

future tactics came out for PS2 too, which would require opengl and C++. And the game isn't exactly AAA. AAA being equivalent to bioshock, stalker oblivion etc.

But that wasn't your point. You said that it would hamper the chances of getting a AAA game published if it couldn't be ported to the consoles. So I demonstrated that it can be and has been ported to the consoles. If Future Tactics doesn't fit your definition of AAA then that only adds further weight to my point because it will have had a smaller budget and a smaller staff and it still wasn't a barrier, so with a AAA publisher it will be even less of one.

No

Playtus was ported to the PSP too remember.

I used B3D to prototype aspects of Future Tactics and Sticky Balls. The code was ported to C by another coder. It took barely any time to port.

(We didn't use OpenGL on PS2 BTW. No idea where that came from. We did all our PS2\GC\XBox stuff with Renderware)

No publisher will ask or care about the language you use. They probably wouldn't understand if you told them.

I said GL for PS2 since it isn't likely to be D3D. A lot of publishers do send staff that do know a fair bit about game development. It just depends on the kinds of games your doing.

Getting a commercial game out is a great achievement, and far more difficult than indie shareware. But the Original poster was talking about AAA games in the topic. Which is why I said what I did.

Some people on here need to lighten up a bit.

..I was simply asking IF game content is really at some pretty much quality level, fully physics interactive, let say has a reasonably good gameplay, animations is mocap done, vfx is good as you can do it with dx7, is that good enough for AAA publishers even if it is done by B3D...thats all i was asking..porting game later for another platform and with another tools is open for future, but I was asking just to step out, is it limitation becouse its donr by B3D, regarding publishers?

How many people here are actually hoping/intending to create a game that they will have published by a AAA company?

I dont know...I just wanted to know regarding maybe some exact knowledge from some forum members is that particular situation I explained ok with publishers of AAA games or not...

Your only limits are the ones you impose on yourself. Everything else is negotiable.

well said - though, you are limited by your own budget,
and time. This isnt really self imposed...

As for the original question...
"This is something only a publisher can answer"

I would imagine that if a publisher loved your game, and
could see a market for it - they would most probably
invest in it.

I would suggest creating a demo + showing
it off through some major international competition..this
will get u the attention your after...if its really good - you wont have to go to them....they will come to you.

What does that have to do with OpenGL?


I can't recall a single incident in 20 odd years of game development where a publisher has expressed the slightest interest in the language we are using or even looked at ths source code.

The only exception being Rare in the 80's where they insisted we submit source code instead of compiled code. And they weren't a publisher, we were subcontracting.

People throw the term 'AAA' around all the time. Actual triple 'A' games represent a tiny proportion of development so I generally take it just to mean mainstream commercial releases in this context.

WTF?
I code in C/C++ as a Game Programmer at A2M. We develop games for PC, PS2, Wii, XBOX360 and PS3 (as well as DS and PSP). The game I have been working on for the past year or so (under DNA, not announced yet, will be around October) will be released for both Wii and PS2 with the possibility of a PC version. And I can tell you, the code is almost exactly the same for all 3 platforms. The only things that change is the underlying engine (we have an engine for all platform with the exact same APIs) and the obviously different control schemes and the TRCs. The AI is the same, the jumping code is the same, the menu code is the same.
Same thing when I worked on Scooby-Doo Unmasked, we released it for PS2, GameCube and XBOX. It was just a matter of recompiling and burning a new disc.
Just look at Ogre, you've got the same APIs for Windows, Linux, Mac, and using either D3D or OpenGL for Windows. Your game code just needs to be recompiled on the proper platform and will remain mostly the same except for a few #ifdefs here and there.
Game logic doesn't change from a platform to another. Why would you even need to re-write from scratch? API calls to move a 3D object, animate one or draw GUI should be the same, except handled differently by the engine depending on the platform.
Now, do that with Blitz3D.
Also, before you argue that you said "usually" and that my place is different than most, I know people that work at Ubisoft and others that work at EA, and it is done the same way as us. Doing otherwise would be completely absurd and a giant money loss.

Silentdreams has problems to find a publisher for this :
http://www.grotesque-game.de/

And that is C++ with the Trinigy6 Engine ,so please dont talk about dreams like AAA Game with DX7.

With BB you are not able to produce an AAA Release because you have no chance to do that what the publisher asks for if you come with your first playable beta and your techdocs. (really not)

But i think what you mean is not AAA but games like "Anhk". But also Games like Anhk uses engines like OGRE. It should not bee impossible to write a game with BB for a "big"Publisher. But not a MMORPG or a FPS. You can not ask for a DualCore CPU to play a FPS DX7 Games with facked Shadows. -.-

cu

@ Abrexxes
Im not TALKING about any dreams...im ASKING for oppinions..

So take this as what a have seen the last months. :)

..and guys, please, if you can, and if I am not asking too much, stick with topic itself...Im not trying to compare B3D with any other language..Im just wondering is it possible to be taken by EA, UbiSoft, or any other big publisher, regarding let say well done game in B3D, thats all..if yes, please explain why you think that or if not..why..I will apprechiate that a lot..

That little simple flash game where you play a plankton 'thing' eating other 'things'.(that was based on evolution or something) Apparently this was considered good enough to be bought up by a big console (sony?).
And that was written in flash!!! so it certainly didnt sell on graphics (as they were hardly state of the art, not even 3D).

So i would say yes, it probably would be taken on by a large pub. if good (bloody good!) enough. Using the latest shaders and physics isnt everything, look at some of the WII titles, the graphics on some are shocking, (far, far worse than B3D at its best) but theyr'e MIGHTY FUN! ('WIIplay' & 'WII sports' spring to mind :)

I wasn't suggesting it couldn't be done. I was suggesting it would be less time consuming writing separate versions for the platforms, so you don't have to work out problems between libstdc, Microsofts Standard C library, Borlands Standard C Library, and Metrowerks' Standard C Library.

I suppose it depends on how you define a "good" job. These days almost everyone uses a 3rd party engine to drive the game (Gamebryo, Unreal 3, whatever) and the need to have dedicated C++ developers has almost been eliminated. In a 30 man team, you'll be lucky to spot 1 full-time C++ programmer. Most will be Python/Lua programmers building the game, or C# programmers, building the necessary tools.

Publishers are in the business of making money, not promoting religion.

Good for you. I can assure you, you're in the minority.

Really? Well I know several companies who do nothing but console ports. That's why the intro screens for different versions of games like (say) Marvel Ultimate Alliance are different from platform to platform. So I think I can say with absolute certainty that Activision/Raven Software don't do it that way. I'm also fairly sure that the PC/Console versions of The Sims, aren't cross compiled, being technically different games with the same title.

The tasks "finding a publisher" and "making a godd game" and entirely different. The assumption that a publisher will automatically pick up a game because it's written in C++ is equally absurd. It's a sales process, and typically takes 6 months from contact to contract - and engineer types are notoriously bad at it.

Based on intro screens, you can say with absolute certainty that a game was developed a certain way? I think most people here will need a little more evidence than that to make such bold conclusions.

I understand that some game developers write first, port later, but even in this case it's a huge advantage to use C++, as opposed to something like Blitz3D.

***delete me***

Aha, found that link to the plankton thing i was on about:
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116460570723333343-ERt2oZlzSQ5MpEbvNZXMxrIFoG0_20071128.html?mod=blogs

So i guess the answer is yes. (at least they may buy the concept of a game)

Eh? Pretty much every game on consoles is written in C\C++

Yeah I know. FlameDuck has this strange hatred of C++. If it was so bad Mark wouldn't have written BlitzMax in it. He did because it's faster than anything (bar assembly language) and the most powerful of languages.

You can write a hit game in any language. If it's a good game, publishers will hire developers to port it to other platforms. If you could do the port yourself, you stand to make more money.

Indeed. C\C++ still makes the most sense for a large scale commercial project due to it (still) being the industry standard and it being extremely portable. Pretty much every game on the shelves is written with is.

I use Blitz because I'm more interested in game design than struggling with Windows. So I can get on with making the game very quickly. Blitz isn't very portable (certainly with regards to consoles) but porting the code to C is very easy so it's not the end of the world.

If I had a nice looking PC game written Blitz (3d or Max) I wouldn't expect any objection from publishers at all. And if they wanted to port to a console porting over to C is easy enough.