Is it just me doing this or do you others have an idea for a game, work on it, then feel like its not good enough and throw it out? Then you think of another "good" game and it ends up in the same place as the first one.
Back to the drawing board...
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Back to the drawing board... Did you ever watch the movie "Under The Tuscan Sun"? It begins with a speech of an author who has exactly the same problem. Then his teacher tells him to go and take one of his bad ideas and work on it. His speech ends with the sentence "Well, I did", and then he shows his new book that he is holding in his hands.
Here's another very famous example: Did you know that Stephen King threw away the manuscript of his fist published novel "Carrie"? Legend has it that his wife fished it out of the trash can and sent it to a publisher - who bought it. Stephen said in an interview that he still thinks that Carrie is a horrible novel, "but the girl was very good to me, so I won't complain".
Tchaikovsky said about his Capriccio Italien that he was not sure about its artistic value, but that it at least would sound good. He did not like the 1812 Overture and found her "too loud". Despite what he thought about his own creations, they both became his best known works.
Sometimes, you will have would you think is a great idea - only to find out that you are the only one who shares your enthusiasm and that everybody else will tell you that your idea sucks. Do you think an artist like Picasso would have listened to those voices? He would have said "what the heck do you people know about art?"
Sometimes, you will have an idea that everybody else loves, but that you think is inferior. Well, at least that could be one of those things you could make money with.
But if you dump ALL of your ideas without pursuing them long enough, then maybe you just aim too high. Or you need an excuse to never ever start something - it's easier to dream of a project than to actually work on one. Maybe you also just underestimate your ideas. In worst case, you are right and your ideas really suck. But as long as you do not come up with something better, you should keep your wheels in motion and work on what you've got. Ultimately, it's better to have dozens of finished bad ideas than waiting for the one stroke of genius and not doing anything else in the meantime.
Here's another very famous example: Did you know that Stephen King threw away the manuscript of his fist published novel "Carrie"? Legend has it that his wife fished it out of the trash can and sent it to a publisher - who bought it. Stephen said in an interview that he still thinks that Carrie is a horrible novel, "but the girl was very good to me, so I won't complain".
Tchaikovsky said about his Capriccio Italien that he was not sure about its artistic value, but that it at least would sound good. He did not like the 1812 Overture and found her "too loud". Despite what he thought about his own creations, they both became his best known works.
Sometimes, you will have would you think is a great idea - only to find out that you are the only one who shares your enthusiasm and that everybody else will tell you that your idea sucks. Do you think an artist like Picasso would have listened to those voices? He would have said "what the heck do you people know about art?"
Sometimes, you will have an idea that everybody else loves, but that you think is inferior. Well, at least that could be one of those things you could make money with.
But if you dump ALL of your ideas without pursuing them long enough, then maybe you just aim too high. Or you need an excuse to never ever start something - it's easier to dream of a project than to actually work on one. Maybe you also just underestimate your ideas. In worst case, you are right and your ideas really suck. But as long as you do not come up with something better, you should keep your wheels in motion and work on what you've got. Ultimately, it's better to have dozens of finished bad ideas than waiting for the one stroke of genius and not doing anything else in the meantime.
Some great anecotes there. I've heard about Carrie before. But yeah all very true stuff. Finishing something always teaches you somethine whereas idea hopping never gets anything finished properly as you are always thinking the best thing is just round the corner.
@Ked: A Design Document is useful in these situations.
However, if you can salvage some code/media/lesson, You dont walk away completely empty-handed. Keep your head up, and don't give up.
However, if you can salvage some code/media/lesson, You dont walk away completely empty-handed. Keep your head up, and don't give up.
Another anecdote containing a wise lesson:
Once I was making soup, but it tasted like nothing, so I added some more salt, still crap, then I added more soupstuff, more whatever, in the end, it was whole can o' crap and still it tasted like nothing. Then I threw the whole soupshebang into the loo and started all over again, which finally resulted in good soup (tm).
The bottom line: even with code-reuse 'n such, it still could do miracles to ditch the whole thing and restart from scratch.
Once I was making soup, but it tasted like nothing, so I added some more salt, still crap, then I added more soupstuff, more whatever, in the end, it was whole can o' crap and still it tasted like nothing. Then I threw the whole soupshebang into the loo and started all over again, which finally resulted in good soup (tm).
The bottom line: even with code-reuse 'n such, it still could do miracles to ditch the whole thing and restart from scratch.
yeah that's true too.
Once I was making soup, but it tasted like nothing, so I added some more salt, still crap, then I added more soupstuff, more whatever, in the end, it was whole can o' crap and still it tasted like nothing. Then I threw the whole soupshebang into the loo and started all over again, which finally resulted in good soup (tm).
That's why I like condensed soup.. Just add water. That would be what, a Game Maker? :P
@CS_TBL: True, however, cooked food is not reusable. hehe.
@Ked: A Design Document is useful in these situations.
Dear God, save us.
Ked: I've been doing that for years....and years.........and.............y - e - a - r - s......
Is it just me doing this or do you others have an idea for a game, work on it, then feel like its not good enough and throw it out?
Frankly, it sounds like your standards are greater than your abilities. Even a small game done well is *a lot* of work.
I agree with MadJack, just finish something simple then move on gradually to bigger projects - you're aiming too high for now.
All the time, although if i have invested a LOT of time in a project then i am more inclined finish it.
I NEVER 'bin' projects though, no matter how bad or unfinished, as the source and media that is created can be invaluable recyclables for future projects. Always keep your experiments/faliures/unfinisheds for furute reference.
I NEVER 'bin' projects though, no matter how bad or unfinished, as the source and media that is created can be invaluable recyclables for future projects. Always keep your experiments/faliures/unfinisheds for furute reference.
...source and media that is created can be invaluable recyclables for future projects.
Yep - another good point.
Thanks everyone for your replies. I try to work on something very, very easy and maybe add on to it. Maybe I'll end up with something.
The first thing I properly finished was a Tetris clone and that took 2 weeks!
The first thing I properly finished was a Tetris clone and that took 2 weeks!
I've finished a few small games over the years, but the most fun I've ever had was doing a Croco Magneto remake in a day! :)
None stop finger pounding... it was great! :)
Dabz
I wouldn't say it feels like my current game doesn't feel good enough, but I always find it more fun and tempting to start something new. In my experience, I'm always surprised at the speed of my progress on new games, but finishing things is tough and laborious. Haven't actually completed a game yet!
The hardest bit of any project is finishing it off. Once all the fun stuff at the start of the project is done, you know, all the stuff that got you interested in making it in the first place, all the boring stuff needs to be sorted. Like cranking out levels, front end menus, game saving. Its all very dull but all very necessary to get the project finished. There is no easy solution but to grit your teeth and get it done but once its finished, it will make you feel fantastic and give you a great feeling of accomplishment.
A project is rarely hard in my eyes, but the big bottleneck is halfway, when you find out you've started the wrong way and need to rewrite the whole soup again.. :P
The biggest problem is that I'm usually the user of my own products, and I always invent new ideas and functionality during the process. You'll have to be damn sure at the start that all odd ideas *can* be supported or you'll be working against yourself.
The biggest problem is that I'm usually the user of my own products, and I always invent new ideas and functionality during the process. You'll have to be damn sure at the start that all odd ideas *can* be supported or you'll be working against yourself.
I'm stuck in the boring end bit now but actually I'm excited because I've done it before and I know what it feels like to have a finished game, that's my drive now - finishing it and seeing on the front page of BFG - wooo!
Dabz: One of the reasons it took so long was I was figured out how to do windowed mode properly in BlitzPlus. Once that was worked out though I applied it to Xmas Bonus and Easter Bonus so it was time well spent.
Dabz: One of the reasons it took so long was I was figured out how to do windowed mode properly in BlitzPlus. Once that was worked out though I applied it to Xmas Bonus and Easter Bonus so it was time well spent.
I think this sort of things is inevitable. Everything you do to create the game `grows you` and gives you a change of perspective. It doesn't take long before you're now perceiving your game from a different vantage point than you started with, and maybe some of your desire or interest was really tied up with looking at the original from the original vantage point which has now changed.
You have to expect also that there is no such thing as finishing something, that is a total myth. There is a continuum of development and you can choose to stop the continuum and divert to some other project but it's still a continuum nevertheless. So you will always look at it and say to yourself ahh, now I see something I should change or do differently. It doesn't matter how many changes you make or features you add it will never be done. Every time you add something or complete a phase, you see it from a new light and now you see things in it that you didn't see before, giving birth to new ideas and desires. At some point you have to force yourself to stop developing and call it done, which hopefully comes before the point where you think that it's a hopeless cause and drop the whole thing.
It also might have something to do with your opinion of yourself - you may be using your judgement of your game to indirectly judge yourself harshly. If you don't `love yourself`, then chances are you aren't going to be accepting toward your work. Your work is NEVER crap, it is all valid, and is just `what it is`. You don't have to add to it by saying it's awful or that it's overinflatedly great. Get detached from it and see it just for what it is and evaluate where you want to go from there, not based on whether you think it matches up to something or not - which is judgement and condemnation - but on whether it's practical or viable. If you keep halting production based on finding your idea to stupid, then it's not your game itself that is stopping its production, nor the idea you had, it's your evaluation of its worth. Re-evaluate it and give it credit where due.
In my opinion there is also a downfall to wanting your game to be the next best super thing, and wanting to be famous for it. That puts your EGO in the middle of things and associates your self identity with the thing you are creating. Then your assessment of your project is an assessment of yourself and like I said, if you don't have a good acceptance of yourself then you're likely to condemn both you and it at the same time. If you are all caught up thinking you are wonderful and great and your project is going to prove how amazing you are, you are asking for a slap to the face, by your own self. You will fall from podestals that you put yourself on falsely. Only when you are on solid ground, keeping it honest, keeping it real, keeping it detached and not mistaking your ego for your project, then you will just know what is the right thing to continue with and what isn't. It won't be anything to do with your ego judgements of right/wrong/good/bad/ugly/crap/boring it will be based on what is good business sense or what is a medium for you to express yourself.
The question isn't whether your game fails and falls from glory, it's whether you fail and fall from glory yourself due to thinking that you ARE the game.
You have to expect also that there is no such thing as finishing something, that is a total myth. There is a continuum of development and you can choose to stop the continuum and divert to some other project but it's still a continuum nevertheless. So you will always look at it and say to yourself ahh, now I see something I should change or do differently. It doesn't matter how many changes you make or features you add it will never be done. Every time you add something or complete a phase, you see it from a new light and now you see things in it that you didn't see before, giving birth to new ideas and desires. At some point you have to force yourself to stop developing and call it done, which hopefully comes before the point where you think that it's a hopeless cause and drop the whole thing.
It also might have something to do with your opinion of yourself - you may be using your judgement of your game to indirectly judge yourself harshly. If you don't `love yourself`, then chances are you aren't going to be accepting toward your work. Your work is NEVER crap, it is all valid, and is just `what it is`. You don't have to add to it by saying it's awful or that it's overinflatedly great. Get detached from it and see it just for what it is and evaluate where you want to go from there, not based on whether you think it matches up to something or not - which is judgement and condemnation - but on whether it's practical or viable. If you keep halting production based on finding your idea to stupid, then it's not your game itself that is stopping its production, nor the idea you had, it's your evaluation of its worth. Re-evaluate it and give it credit where due.
In my opinion there is also a downfall to wanting your game to be the next best super thing, and wanting to be famous for it. That puts your EGO in the middle of things and associates your self identity with the thing you are creating. Then your assessment of your project is an assessment of yourself and like I said, if you don't have a good acceptance of yourself then you're likely to condemn both you and it at the same time. If you are all caught up thinking you are wonderful and great and your project is going to prove how amazing you are, you are asking for a slap to the face, by your own self. You will fall from podestals that you put yourself on falsely. Only when you are on solid ground, keeping it honest, keeping it real, keeping it detached and not mistaking your ego for your project, then you will just know what is the right thing to continue with and what isn't. It won't be anything to do with your ego judgements of right/wrong/good/bad/ugly/crap/boring it will be based on what is good business sense or what is a medium for you to express yourself.
The question isn't whether your game fails and falls from glory, it's whether you fail and fall from glory yourself due to thinking that you ARE the game.
Yes wise words. Basically anything I've said is "finished" really just means "shipped" :-) I could have done lots more.
There's a particular difference between committing yourself to a game -design specs and be done with it, no matter what- and a creative application. The big pitfall with creative application is that creative applications offer the user countless opportunities based on how things are combined and connected. That way you never know when something is 100% designed completely. Usually the best creative additions are small, but quite crap to add into a system that wasn't prepared for it.
Is it worth it to stick to a plan regaring a creative tool? Or is it worth -from the context of what you're going to get from it- to start over again and make your basic engine more sturdy? Even if it costs you more time -and in some cases, more money- ?
It's the choice between:
- slow expensive start, fast cheap end
- fast cheap start, slow expensive end
What does an indie with a toy budget choose?
Is it worth it to stick to a plan regaring a creative tool? Or is it worth -from the context of what you're going to get from it- to start over again and make your basic engine more sturdy? Even if it costs you more time -and in some cases, more money- ?
It's the choice between:
- slow expensive start, fast cheap end
- fast cheap start, slow expensive end
What does an indie with a toy budget choose?
Or what does an indie with zero budget choose?
I agree about creative apps versus uncreative/passive ones. For a passive app you don't have to think much about giving the user many options so whatever way you design it doesn't reflect too poorly on what the user can do with it, and making changes under the hood probably doesn't impact the `realm` of their interaction with it very much. On the other hand if you want the user to have freedom and be creative then every single decision that you make in your sourcecode, and everything that every instruction implies about what you can and cannot do, is directly imposed on and shapes the user's creative options. Every scrap of freedom that you shut out in your code is a scrap taken away from the user, so to give them creative options you have to really come up with a very flexible sourcecode or based on much more abstract and subtle ideas of unification, openness, unpredictability, etc. That's harder to do and particularly more difficult to change later without the user noticing. A creative app is wide open with very visible internals, rather than very closed with hidden inner workings.
To me I don't think it's possible to make a design spec and stick to it. I do not know what lies ahead and I don't know what ideas will turn out or which ones will suck, so I have to stay flexible and be ready to encounter lots of things that I didn't expect.
I agree about creative apps versus uncreative/passive ones. For a passive app you don't have to think much about giving the user many options so whatever way you design it doesn't reflect too poorly on what the user can do with it, and making changes under the hood probably doesn't impact the `realm` of their interaction with it very much. On the other hand if you want the user to have freedom and be creative then every single decision that you make in your sourcecode, and everything that every instruction implies about what you can and cannot do, is directly imposed on and shapes the user's creative options. Every scrap of freedom that you shut out in your code is a scrap taken away from the user, so to give them creative options you have to really come up with a very flexible sourcecode or based on much more abstract and subtle ideas of unification, openness, unpredictability, etc. That's harder to do and particularly more difficult to change later without the user noticing. A creative app is wide open with very visible internals, rather than very closed with hidden inner workings.
To me I don't think it's possible to make a design spec and stick to it. I do not know what lies ahead and I don't know what ideas will turn out or which ones will suck, so I have to stay flexible and be ready to encounter lots of things that I didn't expect.