Need advice about Macs

I`m thinking of buying a MacBook but would just like to confirm before I do whether or not I will be able to use Blitz 3D on it.

I have been told that I can run PC software but I want to know just how effective this aspect of Macs is. Are we talking full speed with 3D also?

Are there any other things that I need to know before parting with my hard earned cash?

Any help would be most welcome.

Jason.

No you can't use Blitz3D on it unless you install windows on it.

I am not sure what cpu the MacBook has but in order to run Blitz3D you'll need:

a) An intel cpu with OSX Tiger
b) A copy of Apple Bootcamp (beta is available) to create a driver cd for windows
c) A large enough harddrive to hold at least two operating systems ie probably 150 GB or more.
d) To partition your harddrive into at least two large partitions (boot camp can do that for you if you only want windows and osx).
e) A decent graphics card and preferably NOT the built in intel cards that share main memory - they are slow. Get a proper graphics card with its own video ram.
f) You'll need to buy or own your own copy of Windows.
g) If you want to install Vista you'll need more harddrive space, >50gb just for the o/s, and the graphics card must support DirectX/3D with shader model 3 (ie be a `ready for vista` graphics card).
h) It's advisable to get at least 1 gig ram since vista seems to need that much as a minimum and you know how hungry windows is in general.
i) Your graphics card must have at least 128mb of video ram if you want to run vista.
j) You can't as yet install a 64-bit version of Windows onto the machine, not until OSX Leopard comes out with the full version of BootCamp. So make sure it's a 32-bit version.
k) Then once you've done the boot camp stuff, have partitioned (which in bootcamp preserves the current osx installation), you can install windows as directed. There are tutorials on the internet. It will be a full natively running windows with no emulation or abstraction layers or virtual machines, so it will run full speed with all of window's capabilities. Then it's just a matter of installing blitz3d like you would on any windows machine and compiling your app. It will run full speed just like any other pc would. Yes the graphics will be full speed, just depending on your graphics card's performance.

Why not just use Max and MiniB3D?

Get a PC.

Ouch.

Macs haven't used 680x0 processors since 1994.

In that they haven't really existed since 1994? I guess so.


Yes, the old ones. The ones you're apparently confusing with 680x0. The new ones use dual core Intel processors.


Well since BRL have been selling BlitzMax for both Intel and PPC Macs for a couple of years now, it can apparently do quite a lot.

Is Mac entering the same compatibility hell as the PC, now? :/

seems like it, i like my ppc mac personally

I highly recommend getting that MacBook. They are really great computers. My recommendation is not to get the cheapest one, but the second one (with SuperDrive), and make sure that you get the newest ones (the ones that come with 1GB RAM and faster processors). I say that because here in Spain some resellers sell old versions on Macs :P

To run Blitz3D, you have in theory two options: The first and free one is to install Boot Camp, create a partition for Windows, and install XP there. You can then choose to boot OSX or XP, and Windows will run at native speed, exactly like it would do on a PC. The second one is to buy the Paralells 3.0 virtualization program, and create a Windows virtual machine. You will be able to run your Windows programs with 3D graphics inside your OSX desktop, which is really cool.

_33 .... you are in the stone ages. Macs have not used 680x0 processors for some years now. PowerPC chips have already been the norm for every version of OSX (5 now) and they've already moved a large percentage to Intel dual or quad core chips. The 3D graphics ARE very fast depending of course on the graphics card and it has full OpenGL support. You probably need to do a little research into the current state of Macs, and not the myths from like 10 years ago.

Parallels Desktop 3 now supports 3D graphics acceleration and they even showed Half-Life 2 on it. So I guess it's now powerful enough to run Blitz 3D in Parallels without needing a native installation of Windows.

Vista and XP also run great natively on the Intel Macs. Macs are great silent PCs with a very low power consumption - I'm speaking of kw/h here, not CPU power. ;-)

However, it kind of defeats the purpose of buying a Mac if you want it for Windows only. Most Mac software IS superior to Windows software in many regards, but especially in terms of usability and design. For switchers, this migration probably won't be cheap.

In any case, you should only go for a Mac if you want to make OS X your main platform. There are many reasons to make that decision, but the total migration cost can be a very good reason not to make the transition. I invested a lot in my Macs, most of it in software, actually, and I don't regret it. I can still run Windows if I really have to - but except for a few games and the German tax software I don't use it anymore in my private life. At work, unfortunately we are still a Windows shop, but I also have a Mac there and run Vista on it...

@_33: Have you been sleeping for the last 1.5 decades? Maybe you should update your knowledge on www.apple.com.

If you can, wait till Leopard will be out in a few months and see what hardware will be available then. They at least sell Macbooks Pro with the mobile version of the 8600GT now.

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/topics.php?forum=107

I appreciate all the advice given here, thanks to everyone who answered, it has been a big help :)

Jason.

Indeed. A shame the OpenGL performance is apparently not up to scratch compared to the older model's ATI chipset. See this article.

In any case, I purchased the new top spec 15" MacBook Pro about a week ago. Slick hardware and OS. BlitzMax works nicely. The only issue I'm having is mouse control seems a little 'off' compared to Windows XP. I'm not sure if it's something in my code or not.

I'd like to install Windows XP but I don't have the correct version... So I'll probably wait until Leopard is released and purchase Vista Home Premium at the same time. Heh, it's a bit rediculous, but if I want to play the occasional DirectX10 game, I don't have a choice...

It's the best bang for Watt you can probably get at the moment if you're also after a shader4 capable card. To me this is more important than getting a few fps in older titles. For Apple this is a big step as they normally tend to build in gfx chips which are a generation behind.

Just one more question, is a standard MacBook capable of running BMax as well as a MacBook Pro as it has an inferior graphics card. Also how well does a MacBook and Pro deal with 3D created with Blitz3D SDK and MiniB3D?

And finally, if a MacBooks graphics card was compared to a PC one what sort of card would we be talking about. My current card is an old Geforce4600 TI. How would a standard MacBook one compare to that and how would a MacBook Pro one compare?

Thanks again for any help :)

Jason.

You gotta find out what actual card it comes with and then compare it somewhere online.

The standard MacBooks ship with:

* Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 SDRAM shared with main memory

Quite a weak chipset by today’s standards, that was utilised by the PC industry (it has since been superseded, I believe). It should be enough to run simple 2d BlitzMax games (but don't quote me on that). 3D? I don't know. It almost certainly won’t be good enough for Windows Vista if you plan on installing that later on.

Personally, I wouldn’t touch it, but, if you’re an indie developer, many of your intended users will be running an Intel chipset like the GMA 950.

As for MiniB3d - I've not yet tried it on my MacBook Pro because I'm trying to finish a little 2d game before I get distracted. I’ve got some intensive MiniB3d stuff laying around that I’m itching to try out. Hmm, maybe later…

Taumel:

I agree. The 8600GT chipset was one of the main factors that influenced my purchasing decision. (The other was OS X). Undoubtedly you’ll be able to purchase equivalent non-Apple-bundled hardware for cheaper very soon, but I felt like spending a little more on something different. I’ve not regretted it yet.

The GMA950 is a joke but it will run 2D and 3D stuff as long as it's a few years old and not too complicated. So doing a casual like thing would be okay as long as you keep the polycount in mind as once you reach a certain amount it slows down a lot. If you can afford it, i wouldn't buy it.

Is there a possibilty to update the graphics card in a standard MacBook at a later date or is this not an option, I see no mention of it on the Apple site.

Jason.

No, Macs - with the possible exception of the very top-end machines, cant have their graphics cards updated.

I`m a little worried that BMax games will not work that well on standard MacBooks as surely these are the ones that most people will own.

I`m not so sure that a Mac is for me now, I really had my heart set on a standard one but if it is not up to the job then I may reconsider. The pro version is a little pricey at around £1,799 for the best model. Is it worth it?

Jason.

QuickSilva...

Bottom line is that Macs ARE way overpriced in my opinion; especially in the UK. The gfx cards (well, chips) in all but the most expensive systems are underpowered by PC standards. By the way, I'm not a hater, and owned a Mac-mini at one point. The main upside is a stylish box and a nice operating system. You need to consider if these justify the expense in your mind. One of the reasons I switched back was because there's a lot more decent freeware out there for the PC.

If you plan to get a MacBook do yourself a favor and wait 2 months until Intel releases Peryn.

Apple will change their MacBooks as well and that for sure and together with that, you will get the X3100 which is a much more acceptable card than the GMA950 which does vertex shader through cpu and the like.

If you want a system now, look for a small LG or Sony system, better choice at the moment as the offer dedicated graphics.

Yah I would try to avoid those integrated memory-sharing graphics solutions like the plague, they are very poor at performance. I was thinking of getting an ibook but sacrificed the portability in favor of an imac to ensure a proper graphics card with its own video ram.

"Get a PC."

And a horse and buggy. Oh, be sure to pick up a butter churn too. Always handy to have around...

Yes, PCs are really crap.

*yawn*

I had a iMac some months ago. I like my new Vista PC better (Core2Duo, 2GB RAM, GeForce 8800 GTS) :) But OSX is a nice Unix based OS with a good and user friendly interface. My girlfriend still has a Mac and all she needs Windows for is games like Guild Wars.

"Yes, PCs are really crap."

I didn't say that. Don't project your issues onto my posts.

What did you mean bythen? It seemed to me you were implying that PCs are far inferior to (i.e. crap compared to) Macs.

@Dreamora
Only if they surprisingly get their drivers done properly, which they can't since quite some time. I would hope that they'lll take another chip instead.

@QuickSilva
Something like a MacMini is very nice, something like an iMac is nice and something like a Mac Pro sucks. In all cases use your own keyboard and mouse as Apple's ones are really bad. As for the notebooks i think i would prefer a pc notebook (sony) instead.

The thing is that OSX overall is the nicer operating system. Works better, less hassle and it's cheaper too. On the other side you'll miss quite some software which you love from windows and were there is sadly no alternative. For some there is and there do exist also some very good shareware tools but in some cases you won't find anything good there. So you have to use BootCamp, Parallels or a PC.

For gaming (buying games) obviously the Mac is worse than windows. For doing your own games both are okay.

As i've said before i would wait till Leopard is beeing released and see what kind of hardware is available then. Maybe you can get a used MacBook Pro with a X1600 instead but i wouldn't recommend that too, as i feel saver with new stuff when it comes to computer hardware.

So it really depends on your personal needs...

Whatever i can do on OSX i do there and for the rest i use windows on a pc.

One final question, is it worth going for a 17inch MacBook Pro over a 15inch one as it seems to be quite a bit more expensive, around £300 (!) I think. Is ths screen size the only difference between the two models as I can see no other features on the Apple site.

Also how do the iLife suite of applications compare to similar Windows programs? Are they very versatile or simple programs for people wanting a quick and easy way of doing things?

For example, despite iWeb looking really easy to use I haven`t seen many iWeb created websites. Is this simply because there are more PC users around?

Jason.

As far as I can tell, the 17” model has a larger screen and an extra USB port. The downside is it does not yet feature a LED backlit screen, is larger and heavier, and the battery life is inferior.

iLife is just a collection of 'simple' integrated apps, most of which I’ve never used so I couldn’t tell you what they’re like.

For browsing I use Opera; photo editing - GIMP; diagram editing – InkScape, DVD and music playback - VLC; word-processing - AbiWord. Web coding - not sure yet, usually a simple text editor; audio-editing – Audacity.

So, I suppose it all depends on what your current tools are. The transition was relatively easy for me because most of the apps I use on Windows have OS X versions.

If you are heavily dependent on Windows-only apps, then you’d probably be better off installing Windows XP using BootCamp, at least initially, and using your original software until you can find and learn equivalent OS X applications. For Windows XP installation you’ll require a SP2 edition (you can’t install an older version and then patch it up).

QuickSilva, based on what you’ve posted in this thread, I’m not sure a Mac would be suitable for you at the moment. It can be a big transition if all you’ve ever used are Windows PCs. However, it can also be a rewarding experience if you have the time and budget - in my opinion, anyway.

Thanks for the advice, I do really like the Mac but I`m afraid that it may just prove too expensive at the moment for what I need.

Jason.

Mac are cheaper in Switzerland, I don't know why but this is the case since forever. It's always roughly 10-20% cheaper depending on the model. Off course it's even cheaper in the US but you would have some troubles with taxes and warranty...So if you are planning hollidays in the Alps get one ;)

For those who know id software (Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein), John Carmack states that some of their artists have moved to the Apple brand because they are faster in intensive calculating tasks. Here's a video of the id Tech 5 game engine that is in development, running on an Apple computer:

http://www.pixelrage.ro/news/id-Tech-5-Engine-Demonstration--Trailer-Download/4677.html