[INDIES] Are you repressed?

Don't you feel restrained by what sells and what doesn't in the indie market?

When I started coding many aeons ago, I had lots of ideas of what I'd like to do. I didn't start to make any money until about 7 years ago. From that, to where I am now, I feel completely repressed by the indie market. I can't say it was my life long dream to write endless "match 3" or "where's waldo" games. But that's all that sells!

I don't pretend to be doing this for love. I'm in it for the money and that's that.

Its like... anything that's Match 3, the portals can't keep their grubby paws off it. Anything that goes beyond the norm and could open the eyes of their catalog of customers to a new genre, is insantly dismissed because it isn't a tried and tested formula.

Is this hacking anybody else off, or just me?

My partner plays a lot of match 3 games - they all look the bloody same to me and its a genre that I cannot muster any enthusiasm for. Christ knows I've tried.

Yes. The indie market will eat itself. :)

What type of game would you ideally like to make, GfK?

I agree with you, by the way. Which is one reason why I don't develop games. It's too soul-destroying for me.

Well... something that I'm 'into', would be good.

I've always been into motorsports, plus I've always wanted to do a proper golf sim - a realistic one, not some cartoony crap. I actually despise golf, but I seem to have a knack for making golf sims.

I ultimately want to make stuff that sells. But if that means stooping to match three games - forget it. I'd rather work a day-job for £5.35/hr.

I feel that the match three genre has been bled dry over recent years. There's nowhere else for it to go, yet still they keep coming. I even started writing a match three engine as an experiment. Wasn't excessively difficult but it did bore me to tears.

I'm the first one to admit that if you want to make a few quid in this game, then you have to bite the bullet. But for me, writing match three games would be plumbing new depths. Maybe I should just go back to customer services which is pretty much all I'm qualified for.

Yeah, match3 has been done to death. Time to move on, people!

It's that "users are idiots and will never learn anything new" mentality which has been spreading through IT like a disease.
Even if that new thing is easier and for stupider people, the horrendous defaults will never change.


I would bet that a good number of casual gamers do stuff in life that is boring, repetitive and not fun. Why is playing a boring, repetitive game suddenly fun? Because it's shiny? Because it's not real?
I think a lot of casual gamers enjoy being productive, and thus prefer games which merely pass time rather than consume it. (Since a popular philosophy in casual games is the "pick up and play" idea, allowing for many small moments of "fun").
With this in mind, what makes people think that those types won't enjoy a game they can still play in short bursts, but that leaves some lasting feeling that something remotely interesting or productive has occurred? This feeling can come from a well designed puzzle that is actually puzzling, an easy robot game -- which can indeed be fun --, something with a learning curve higher than 5 seconds... Heck, even Atomix can achieve this.
The game doesn't have to be difficult to give that feeling (in fact, it could be "easier" than a time limited Match 3 game), it just has to be well designed.

An example: Look at Brain Age. It is a fun game partly because you can leave it feeling like you have done something productive, which is improving your cognitive abilities. It sold well. Why? Because people actually like being productive! It's an idea supported throughout history. Read The Epic of Gilgamesh, for example; leaving something behind, creating an immortal legacy preserved through civilization, is a mortal's greatest ambition.


What the portals are doing is telling casual gamers that they are stupid, that they are unable to learn, that they are attracted to shiny objects and that they have repetitive behaviours comparable to insects.
All we need now is some loudmouthed consumer to see this, take it personally and get really pissed off. Any ideas?

This is the reason I write games I want to write, yeah they dont pay the bills but I get something I wanted in the end.

I blame Grey Alien for this.

yes. (to the original question, not Notel)

but there is always something you can enjoy about making whatever game. There's always challenges to solve, you framework keeps getting better, you are always learning how to add extra polish etc. so that future games are lots better. I'm enjoying making my current game, it's not a match-3, so that's OK then :-) I see my current path as a big learning experience getting me to the point where I can release a game that I REALLY want to.

What about writing a book then? You've got a track record for completing stuff, and I'm sure a lot of 'wannabe' amateurs would like to hear your take on how to finish stuff.

I admire anyone who has gone out there, bit the bullet and made a living from Indie games, but if it becomes a chore, you have to admit there are easier ways to make a buck. My advice is that you need to make the game you really want to make, but whether it will support you or not is another matter.

Why don't you change that then? Build your own little empire and stop lamenting...look at M Dickie - the guy's a hero in my book. He made it so...instead of wailing about how unfair it all is.

Come on guys. You must be blind somehow. Yeah, match-3 is damm popular, so are hidden objects games, but that's not the only games that exist in the indie market. And stop misleading indie games with casual games. Besides, look at Virtual Vilagers, Kudos, Rock Legend, Aveyond, Grimms Hatchery, Runes of Avalon ;-) and some other titles I don't remember. They're not match-3 and some of them are very complicated.

Open your eyes, look at some of BFG releases - they even released RTS and beat-um up. Look at ArcadeTown, they even don't accept match-3 games.

So shut up and code ;-)

best
Roman

The potential markets as far as I can see for indie games are:

1) Casual games. The games that the middle aged women supposedly buy. Match-3 mainly, but also a few other genres. 2D, no scrolling, mouse only.

2) Kids games. The kids won't buy the game, but their parents will. Can be much more varied than casual games - 2D, 3D, scrolling etc. Can also be made with joysticks in mind. My own game fits in this category.

3) Niche games. Can appeal a lot to a certain section of people. You have to make sure that there is no other type of game quite like it. Marketing can be targetted quite effectively. Examples might be a cricket management sim, gardening sim, etc.

4) Adult games. See Love Chess.

I think there's decent money to be made from all of those areas. And the more games you can make the better, one game on its own might not sell brilliantly, but 10 ordinary sellers equates to 1-2 excellent selling games.

Making money from indie games without a doubt has to involve a long-term plan for most people (I'm talking 5+ years), unless you get exceptionally lucky and produce a mega-hit game.

I'm sure you're aware of where I wasted my last five years.

I should probly get a 'proper job' now.

So why doesn't someone around here make up a web portal for zany, breaking-the-norm games? It could be great, if done properly.

Making "zany, breaking-the-norm games" is the relatively easy part.

The magic comes in getting people to pay money for them. Portals don't take "off the wall" ideas because they know their customer base will buy as many match three games as they can churn out, so why take a punt on a new idea?

What i've discovered over the last year or so, is that games which require brain power in order to play, generally don't do very well. People seem addicted to no-brainers.

Yeah Si has it right, it's a long term game, like building up any business.

Here's the thing, I may not be programming *exactly* the game I'd want but guess what, I work at home, choose my hours, get paid well and I'm making games wooo! That's pretty cool. I used to have a job in an office, be in charge of people, have to do helpdesk, coding, marketing, sales calls, travel the country doing sales demos and installing systems. It was hard work and not that fulfilling in the end. Making games is much better. I'm sure in the long run I will be doing exactly what I want but meanwhile it's pretty damn close and it's good! Plus when people say
"what do you do?" I don't have to go "I make stock control systems" I can say "I make games, I work at home yay!"

So to conclude, I can see where gfK is coming from about not being able to make what he truly wants, but it's not that bad ;) imho. You'll get over it dude!

I need to ad something. Getting to where I currently am was no picnic, it's taken 2.5 years of Blitz and there's no guarantee it'll work out in the future, but I'm hopeful. Also I'm an experienced developer, reasonably bright and an avid games player and I don't give in. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet - I'm trying to make the point that it's not like you go "I'm an indie developer from today and all is well". It'll take a lot of work and you have to have some good traits to start with and perhaps a little luck too.

Gfk: common man you have just started to get into it, keep going - fight for it, make it work! Roman has made some good games and they just keep on getting better, also they've been fairly individual too. Can't wait to see what's next from both you guys. Intermediaware has just released a platformer! They made a shooter, some weird ball game, a casual game (inlay style) and now a platformer - that's a pretty cool collection.

Pretty much what Si said. If you want to go the easy route and work the portals, you're gonna have to walk the middle ground. In that regard, being an indie is no different from being on contract. Maybe you just need to work a different portal? From what I can tell, TotalGaming.net don't do many Match-3 games.

Don`t give up Gfx, I must have played nearly all of your games and each one is getting better and better.

I`m in the position that I cannot work on my game much as my day job constantly gets in my way even though I think it will be a success in the end.

How do you manage to work so much on your games? I assume this is your sole income in which case you must be doing something right :)

Stick with it, I would love to be in your position and do this as a job fulltime.

Jason.

I've always been in it for the fun- I happened to enjoy the last couple of contract jobs, and the commercial one before that was fun even if it paid extremely low (three figure sum- 6 months.... Two people...flopped...)

but yes, I see casual gaming going off the same way as commercial games- i've noticed this the last couple of years!!


I don't see Indie and Casual games as the same though- to me, those Match-3 games are the casual games (made, of course, by Indie coders still..)

To me, the Indie games are the Rule benders- the ones that break out of their mould, and are coded by indie developers.

if you ask me, things are going Match-3 because we're letting it. I mean, look at that Line rider...

That was a kick ass original "game" (toy...) that got snapped up and will soon come to DS. it broke the rules.

So it is possible- but you have to decide if your idea is good to you, or to everyone. (Most of you like FPSs. but is an FPS quick to pick up for 3 minutes and fun for that period?)

Line rider opened up, you clicked start, drew a line, hit play and away it went. 30 seconds. And then you closed it, and could go back to it in an hour or something....

I agree, games like Line Rider are what Indie games are all about, to me at least. The whole point of Indies is to break the mould after all isn`t it?

Another thing that is important to me is that you should be having fun making your game otherwise it will show in the end product in a negative way.

Jason.

I think you can make it as an indie doing interesting games, however you have to be prepared to build up your IP and be good at marketing. In order to get your game published, you will probably have to prove its worth first.

Unfortunately most developers are lousy businessmen, and just as bad at marketing.Either that, or just aren't interested and would prefer someone else to handle it. Which is why there are publishers in the first place.

So basicly, doing your own thing is risky, and harder to succeed in. But there are opportunities there if you tenacious enough and are willing to spend some money and take the risk.

Of course, most of us don't have much money in the first place <grumble, grumble>. ANd it only gets worse when your married :)

and when you have kids.

Anyway yeah line read was great!

Gfk, have you thought about doing a golf-sim with a full career/lifestyle element such as New Star Soccer? I'm talking real-life players, real tournaments, real courses (with fudged names of course).

NSS has been selling solidly for 18 months and shows no signs of giving up the ghost (touch wood). People love the fact that it allows them to live the dream; score the goals, make the headlines, get the pop-star girlfriend. They love buying virtual items (cars, jewelry, mansions) despite the fact that they have little effect on the "game". It took about 2.5 years to get from NSS1 to NSS3 (from part-time hobby to full-time indie) and over that time I built up a dedicated fan-base, got my head around basic marketing, selling and so on. A key factor in the games success is that people want to use their own name in the game. Using leaked codes means they have to use someone else's name. Where's the fun in that?

I guess I was lucky in that started out with a game I was passionate about and it turned out that other people wanted to buy it. I'm often asked if I'll be making New Star Cricket, New Star Rugby etc so I'm sure that if I made a golf or F1 game it would sell well. Thing is, I'm only really passionate about football, so I'm not sure I could do justice to other sports. For me, it's all about the passion.

It's kind of funny. In the old days people would try to make their game addictive, playable, long lasting and have that stick-with-it-factor. Why don't these casual games even attempt to have that factor? Can you say a casual game is a game that has been made without those elements?

Anyway, as has been said, indie does not = casual. There's plenty of shareware and freeware and for-sale games by independent people and teams. Who needs labels anyway.

I think you can make it okay with being an indie game developer so long as you're not kidding yourself and you put in plenty of effort to market/advertise and have a decent website.