Sony go to church

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6736809.stm

I'm on the side of the church, in this instance. Just imagine if the game was set inside a well-known mosque. There'd be death threats all over the shop!

At this point I would be surprised if Sony did NOT do something stupidly inappropriate.

Heh. :)

I don't see what difference that makes. It's a realistic representation of a real Cathederal - nuff said. Besides, are they trying to say that they didn't visit the location and take loads of photos for modelling/texturing purposes? Yeah, right!

Erm, no one is available to comment from Sony, but a Sony spokesman said...blah blah...

EH?

I thought no-one was available to comment!?! Oo

Dabz

Well, the game is developed by Insomniac Games, which is not a Sony studio so it makes little sense to blame Sony although they are the publisher of the title. Although it's a lot easier because no one likes them these days.

I think the blame belongs fully at Sony's door. As you say, they are the ones that actually published the game, and were presumably fully aware of the game's content. It must've gone through the usual Sony quality assurance test before publication.

Indeed, good to see the old journalistic adages about truth and good stories still hold true. I'm not terribly surprised though. The BBC has gone downhill fast for news coverage.

The what now?

Well, that's what they call it. It's actually just tested to make sure it doesn't crash and conforms to certain requirements. :)

@big10p: That's like blaming a record label for a band using explicit lyrics although they already put a label on the cover stating that. Games have PEGI ratings, at least in Europe, and R:FOM has an 18+ rating. Surely an individual who is 18 or older, can tell the difference between shooting aliens in a game and reality.

@fredborg: That's not the contention here, though. The Church of England are upset (rightly so, in my view) that a place of worship is being used to depict scenes of mass murder. I'm not religeous, but it's pretty disrespectful, IMO.

I'm not saying they cannot be upset, they can be as upset as they want, but they should be upset at the right people.

In my opinion it's quite obvious from the statements in the article that they haven't seen the real game. Or even considered looking at the box for that matter.

Well, I think they are upset at the developers of the game, too, but they're considering taking legal action, which would have to be aimed at the publishers - Sony.

I'd be surprised if they haven't at least seen video footage of the game, TBH.

It's aliens with weird weapons against WW2-alike soldiers in a 1950's setting with an 18+ rating... How they can consider that corrupting the youth of Manchester, or even think that someone would consider it to depict reality in any way is beyond me. But hey :)

OK, let's just agree to disagree. :)

I'm with the church on this one. If like the sony pr man say's "It is not based on reality at all." then why use a real location. It's just plain disrespectful. I think this is clearly the kind of publicity the developers were hoping for, which is sad, and in no way helps the gaming industries hopes of being taken seriously.

The church must have a very poor opinion of Manchester's youth if they don't think that they can distinguished between reality and a virtual shoot out in a reconstruction of their cathedral. It is ludicrous and hypocritical that the church encourages people to forgo separating fact from fiction when it comes to accepting their wacky beliefs, but reacts hysterically when the possibility of the same behaviour of uncritical acceptance jeopardises their image. I seem to vaguely remember reading something about sin and casting stones.

Agree on the line between reality and fantasy. I remember a report where a couple of kids killed a Toddler. They found a video of 'Chucky' in the kids bedroom and immediately pointed the finger... never mind that tons of kids have the same video but would never dream of killing anyone.

Another good reason not to own a PS3 at this point. Wii60 all the way!

I don't quite follow your line of reasoning...

Well, I'm just stating that Sony's been a big target for every lawsuit and complaint known to man so far, that it's making me wince about even thinking of owning another Sony product ever again. With something like this, taking away Sony's biggest launch title for a little thing that Sony or Insomniac could clean up real easy, this is just too much.

pah, even the church is owned by whiners ;)

Ah, Wedgebob, I see what you mean. You make a valid point, but lawsuits and wealthy corporations go together like, well, lawsuits and wealthy corporations. Where there is money there are leaches. I agree that Sony and or Insomniac could handle this situation more tactfully, but perhaps the more pressing question is whether or not they should have to.

You know, this situation reminds me of when the Lord of the Rings movies were released. How? Well, there were people who hated the movies, claiming that they were not only terrible adaptions but also that they somehow ruined the books. What they didn't seem able to grasp was that regardless of how poor the movies might be, the books remain unchanged and unaffected. Likewise, people can still visit the cathedral to admire the architecture, pray and even study there if they want to.

The only objection I have is that if a well-known Mosque was used there would be a huge outcry, but it's perfectly acceptable to denigrate European traditions. England is one place where the Catholic church seems very much under attack.

A lot of the same Brits who think this is silly would instantly side with Muslims if they were upset over the same thing.

No, the more pressing question is why they felt the need to depict a real cathederal in the first place - or, a cathederal at all, for that matter. They seem to have gone out of their way to offend.

Yep - a point I made in my OP. :)

Leadwerks,

"But they do it too!" is an excuse used to shirk personal responsibility when actions cannot be justified. Whenever the US publishes their annual report on human rights abuses in China, the Chinese government points out abuses by American troops in Iraq and the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. When Christians are criticised they point to Muslim extremists. When Britain criticises oppressive foreign regimes, those same regimes remind us of our history of colonisation and exploitation. People should stop pointing at others and saying "but they do it too!" and accept responsibility for their own actions - or at least have the courage and integrity to defend them.

Regarding your comments about the average "Brit", I'm an English guy and I would take the same position if we were talking about a Cathedral, Mosque, Synagogue, or any other place of worship, because I have ethical and intellectual integrity. Perhaps you should get out and learn more about the world before you make sweeping statements about other cultures.

I think you misunderstood me. I only said a double standard exists. I'm not even a Christian, but it seems blatantly obvious.

Good job it didn't feature a scientology church.

Because they wanted to include a memorable location into a game to give it some sense of its universe being complete, they've gone out of their way to offend? No, the only people being offensive are the people saying this is a terrible offense.

Its time the church realised that not many people give a flying crap about religion any more. Then at least they could stop getting out of their pram over things that don't matter to anyone but the tiniest minority of people (who have nothing better to do with their time than blame some unseen being for all the world's faults).

The real issue isn't a video game having a shootout based in the Cathedral but a shift of focus away from the paedophile priests scandals.

I feel uneasy posting this because I don't want to offend or anything, I'm just saying that the Church has more important issues.

Exactly. It's open season on traditional western religion, but everything else is protected. Can you blame the church for getting a little defensive?


I thought minorities were to be protected from the majority that might oppress them? You can't have it both ways.

Heh, with all the contraversy on the PS3 altogether, look how many patent lawsuits that Sony had, as well as now the software? I don't think too many people are happy with Sony's new console or the games so far. Resistance, being the biggest title, and the PS3 having Blu-Ray, which Sony was sued for, not to mention the force feedback/dual-shock technology, too. I mean, yeesh, Sony just isn't the same as they used to be. I feel sort of sorry for them, yet I am sort of distancing myself from them and going with the X360 and the Wii. With Microsoft pulling almost all the 3rd-party exclusives away left and right, Sony's finished, IMHO. I just don't like Sony's chances with this one.

Well, if someone had walked into a mosque and shot everyone, then I'd probably agree.

But this is a GAME for Allah's sake. :/

L. Ron Hubbard is probably rolling in his grave over this. The Church of England just needs to start using e-meters and auditing to clear them of their body thetans. That way, they can reach operating thetan status and just postulate that the game is off store shelves, thereby making it real.

OMG RICHIE CUNNINGHAM IS DEAD?!!!!!!11+

Oooh, this is on the main news right now.

Well, what if there was a game based in Italy during WWII, and they made use of St. Peter's Basilica or Sistine Chapel, or even the whole Vatican area? Would Pope Benedict sue their little 'hinds for that, too?

Ever watched the movie "Savior"? It's about a US Marine who, after his wife and child are killed by a terrorist bomb, walks into the nearest mosque, and guns down everyone praying there. He then flees to the Foreign Legion and joins up with the Bosnian Army as a mercenary, so he can get to kill more Muslims.

The Church of England is not Catholic.

If the church is so opposed to violent video games taking place in churches, they should just make their own video games where you need to pray in schools.

The church guys have a perfectly reasonable complaint here.

The problem is not that the game features a church, it is that the church is plainly Manchester Cathedral.

This isn't an issue. The Statue of Liberty has been featured in many games and nobody throws a fit over it. In Red Alert 2 you destroy the WTC buildings. Monuments have been featured in games for a long time, that this one is special isn't a legitimate claim and demanding it be removed from store shelves is completely unreasonable. The people who raised this issue need to go back to the closets they emerged from.

Would the Chinese government have a fit if you used the Great Wall in any of your games? Like using that as a sniping object or something like that?

"Fall of Man" is a religious term. I think that may have something to do with it.

Manchester has a gun problem? I thought firearms were illegal in the UK.

>I'm not even a Christian, but it seems blatantly obvious.

Are you a muslim, you speak like one! Infidel!

Yes. And yes.

WedgeBob asked:

Probably not. They'd slap an official ban on the sale of the game in mainland China, which wouldn't stop anyone from buying it because widespread piracy has effectively undermined the effectiveness of their censorship mechanisms. At a push, they might issue a statement saying that the game "hurts the feelings of the Chinese people".

However it all depends on the nationality of the developers. If the game was made by Japanese or Taiwanese developers then the Chinese government would react in a far more hysterical and vitriolic way. I suspect that they would take advantage of the situation by producing some anti-Japan/anti-Taiwan propaganda to promote strong nationalistic/patriotic sentiment amongst the masses and hatred towards their "enemies".

Yeah, maybe better chances with the Forbidden City or the Tianmen Square.

Good job the Egyptians are such nice, relaxed people. Lara Croft has been running around all of their most sacred buildings shooting seven shades out of every type of mammal ( including humans ) for best part of a decade.

You might be onto something there. There's been a sharp increase in terrorist attacks against the west in the last ten years.

Coincidence? ;)

The statue of liberty and the great wall of china aren't places of worship.

Neither is manchester cathedral for the majority of people.

True, but for a minority of people it is. Don't they deserve some respect?

Its not an issue of respect, imo.

Its just another case of people not being able to distinguish between fiction and reality.

How many times has New York been flattened by meteors and tidal waves in the movies? Nobody seems to bat an eyelid about any of that! What's the difference?

Oh, I thought a lack of respect was the main issue. If the game hadn't featured Manchester Cathedral I doubt the C of E would have got their knickers in a twist.

The C of E is always sticking its neb into matters that don't concern it!

It is for some.

How are they being disrespected?

Manchester Cathedral doesn't concern the C of E?

/me slaps Gfk around a bit with a large trout

:P

Who worships at the statue of liberty?

/me draws FlameDuck a diagram, using a large crayon.

I'm sure it does. And if someone had walked into there and shot the place to pieces, then yeah, quite rightly kick up a minor fuss.

I was speaking in general about the C of E. There's very little they choose not to sound off about.

I believe the state (and city) of New York objected to GTA4 taking place in a place that looked similar to New York. Their argument was that they don't want to have a game that rewards shooting police officers to take place in their city. Why they didn't kick up a fuss about True Crime: New York City is of course because it's all political wrangling, and not about respect or worship at all.

Good patriotic American citizens!

So what you're saying is that if the Church of Manchester is being defiled by Nazi soldiers and aliens, it would be disrespectful to pick up a gun, and go in there and shoot them, and better to let them destroy the whole thing unopposed?

That's a religion now? C'mon, be serious.

No, what I'm saying is, why feature a real cathedral at all?

I never said it was religion (although both have the same traits), I said it was a place of worship. And yes, by the definition of religion in Merriam Webster: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith, patriotism qualifies as being a religion.

Because it's an important part of the story? I haven't played Resistance, so I couldn't say. But if its okay to use a generic place of worship in a game, why aren't you allowed to use a fictional representation of a real place of worship?

big10p,

I don't see why the belief of worshipers deserves the respect of non-believers. I'm an Atheist and while I acknowledge that religious people have different opinions to my own (and that they have the right to express them) I see no reason why I should be expected to respect them for believing on superstitious nonsense.

Would you respect me if I believed in magic goblins who lived in trees? If I told you that trees are holy places of worship to me then would you support me if I called for a ban on trees in violent games? Of course not. That would be ridiculous, right? You wouldn't respect me, nor would you pander to my demands. For some non-believers (including myself), Christianity, and any other "magical" belief systems, is no less ridiculous than believing in a magic goblin. I don't respect people's delusions. But I do tolerate and occasionally pity people who have them. For me, this is the primary (but not the only) reason why I don't have a problem with a violent game featuring a reproduction of the Manchester Cathedral.

Fine. I guess our ideas as to what a religion is are just different, then. Maybe I should have used the term 'organized religion'?

How many players do you think actually know what Manchester Cathedral looks like? I don't. So, again, why use a depiction of a real Cathedral?

So, if I stomp all over any beliefs you may have, that's fine, then? Even if you don't have any beliefs and you think all religion is crap, can't you at least respect that other people have different views? Especially as you can't prove their beliefs are wrong.

If you seriously did, yes. Just because I don't believe that doesn't mean I'd go out of my way to offend your beliefs.

Anyway, I'm done commenting on this. I guess everyone has their own viewpoint on this, and that's fine. :)

I can't actually believe I've got myself into a position of having to stick up for the C of E! :/

bye.

Edit: not even gonna get into this.

I didn't even know Manchester had a cathedral before this.

I guess they should be thanking Sony for putting it on the map.

I can't say I've ever played resistance, but I'm fairly sure the aliens come, kill humans, and then you fight back in places including the church. Well in my opinion the church should be pretty happy with this because doesn't it say in Lev. 19:16: "You shall not stand idly by the blood of your neighbor" or something to that effect? Well your neighbors were just killed by aliens, so doesn't even the Old Testament, which was supposedly written by god himself, kind of command you to fight? From what I can tell, the church is bitching about how there's violence going on in the church. Well, god says there should be violence so I don't see what their problem is with it. That's just my two cents though.

Yup. Diverse opinion and disagreement are healthy.


I acknowled that people have the right to hold different beliefs, if that is what you mean, but the word "respect" has positive connotations and I have no positive feelings towards superstitious nonsense. As far as disproving people's beliefs goes, why would I want to do that? If people want to waste their life on delusions then good luck to them, I say.

I have no more respect for modern day mythological beings than I do for Aslan, the Monkey King, Thor, or Thetans. They are all one and the same to me. Some of them are entertaining, colourful and interesting, but I wouldn't respect someone for believing in them.

I'm still wondering if Pope Benedict would ever sue anyone if they ever used the Vatican or St. Peter's Square in any game that involved any Italian or Roman theme to it.

At the heat of this matter is the general attitude that it's okay and even desirable to degrade traditional Western religion, but every other culture, religion, and fetish is somehow more "genuine" and must be respected and protected. The UK has some pretty draconian laws that make it clear the English should be ashamed of their own culture and history, including outlawing the St. George flag, or even revving an engine in a racist manner.

You can see the attitude in this thread: Christianity is no longer in style, and only a small minority value it. But when it comes to Islam, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Judaism, that's "culture" and we have to protect it at all costs.

I don't think the church would or should win a suit against Sony, but it would be nice if liberals could apply the same compassion they have for every other minority to their own traditional institutions.

Who has claimed that?

It's true Leadwerks. The traditional Western Christian culture is certainly being 'de-constructed' in what could only be described as a 'Marxist's wet dream'.

Realism? Uniqueness? Story? There are hundreds of reasons. There is simply no reason not to!

How is anyones beliefs being offended by this? If it was a matter of belief it would be any cathedral, real or imagined, that would have thrown these morons into a fit of rage.

Explain to me how implying that the Church of England is the only institutional religion worthy of extraterrestrial attention, is degrading.

The saint Georges Cross is not outlawed AFAIK, and I'm fairly sure the "racist revving" is an isolated occurrence.

I don't see that at all. To me they're equally worthless, and that seems to be the position of most others as far as I can tell.

In either case, it's always a laugh when an American starts complaining about the decline of "Western Culture". As if they had any.

I don't think McDonalds or Disney where mentioned in the Communist manifesto or Das Kapital.

РАДИЙ ТЕБЕ БАЧИТИ.

I guess the forum doesn't display Russian characters.

Lots of stuff wasn't mentioned in the manual..so what? Times change and so do details. The desired result is the same...a subservient population of worker-drones, dumbed down, dehumanized and unable to express themselves other than along the lines of 'hungry' , 'angry' , 'tired' etc.

The george flag is illegal in that flying it you are immediately jumped on and made an example of by the police and local authorities. You're demonized, branded 'racists' and then used as an example to frighten the native population into submission... the usual communist tactics...probably not in your manual either.

We've had Nu-Labour..now we have Nu-Communism..a system our global invisible money lending friends have refined over the years - and taking shape before our distracted eyes in the form of the EU as one example. Just the wheel re-inventing itself and history doomed to repeat, which is what happens everytime you try to suppress human nature. But our amoral Lefty Liberal elites know better.

What happened to 'turn the other cheek'? It was very important in defining being Christian. Christian meaning following the teachings of Jesus which updated Judaic law. In this case "eye for an eye" was replaced with "turn the other cheek".

I'm for Sony. Battles with aliens in a WW2 alternate era has nothing to do with religion. If they have issues with this game, why didn't they have issues with games like Eternal Darkness where several levels takes place in a holy church/cathredal.

I find this tread very interesting. I'm an athiest. I've always wondered if most coders are also athiests. To me it seems like there's a lot of them.

I personally think that making a big deal out of this is stupid. Sure it may have been a little offencive, but big deal! It's obvious the game developers agenda wasn't to deminish the image of that site. They just wanted a cool looking location for their game. If they used it to support an anti-religious theme then I would think they had a value complaint, but that obviously wasn't the case here. The church is just being a bunch of cry babies that want attention.

I think they do that kind of thing in privacy now.

Well, why didn't they sue Ion Storm or Ubisoft for the use of a Mosque in Deus Ex Invisible War, or the Templar Knights, or whatever else they used?

Even the name Deus Ex almost sounds religious or biblical.

If that was the case why use a real location? It would have been just as easy to make a level with no bases in reality, and they could have probably built better gameplay into a level built from scratch instead of working the gameplay around an already established location. I think the developers have done this very intentionally to court controversy, and gain free publicity.

Just for arguements sake lets take a slightly different situation. What if the game was set in a graveyard, and the developers had used a real and very recognisable graveyard? Now what's your opinion when the relatives of those who are buried there complain that the memories of their dead relatives are being violated? Are they 'cry babies' who 'can't distinguish reality from fiction'? It's all a matter of perspective. Just because a location means very little to you or I doesn't mean we can desecrate it's image in a celebration of gore and violance for our own amusement.

Comes from deus ex machina which is latin for god from the machine.

I thought it meant "God on a Machine"?

No, "ex" means "from" or "out". By the way: Deus Ex was a great game, heard they want to do a Deus Ex 3 =)

I doubt they'd sell even a single copy, considering the suck fest that was DE2.