Stop crying
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Stop crying
Ok, not meant to start a flamewar but this has to be said:
I started 3D programing whit Blitz3D but like a lot other users I realized that Blitz3D couldn't give me everything I wanted for things like GUI or exe size or speed or OOP. I moved to a few other languages and I'm very happy that mark released this B3D SDK. Consider that I'm a Vista user with a GF 8800 GTS and I didn't bought that stuff because I wanted to spend some money. But even today DirectX 7 has some advantages over newer releases of DX or OpenGL. 80% of the people my games are targeting at users that have something like a GeForce 4 MX in their PCs. And now I'm able to reach those 80%. Before I've used OpenGL but even with some caps locked text saying "INSTALL THE LATEST DRIVERS FOR YOUR GRAPHICS CARD TO GET DECENT OPENGL PERFORMANCE!" most of the people just don't get it.
So stop crying about B3D SDK being a useless piece of software. If you don't want to use it then don't use it. Use your Truevision3D, 3DImpact, Torque or whatever. But let us B3D SDK users use the B3D SDK!
Amen...
People have a right to voice their opinions and questions about any product before a purchase decision is made, allow them to ask their questions without you trying to gag them. Their opinions and questions are as valid as yours and this IS the right place to voice them.
AND emotive words like 'crying' ARE designed to start a flame war..
Oh, and for the record there's NOTHING wrong with OpenGL IMHO. :P
Their opinions and questions are as valid as yours and this IS the right place to voice them.
That rather depends what their questions and opinions are. They're not universally valid any more than they're universally invalid.
No, all opinions are valid, that does not mean you have to agree with their point of view. If you don't agree then say, at least give them a chance to say it.
Some things are better off not to be said, for respect and integrity of the people involved.
No, all opinions are valid,
No, not if the opinions are downright disrespectful, completely negative and entirely devoid of constructive elements. Some people seem to forget these are private forums paid for by BRL. You don't automatically have the right to slag off someone's work on their private forums just because you feel like it.
As _33 says, it's a matter of respect and integrity. And believe me, I'm very loose in what I consider to be positive elements, but one or two of the comments I've seen would get the poster permanently banned from stricter forums than these, let alone anything else.
This sort of disscustion, and in fact opinions of the product, should be in the General Theads. Not the SDK programming threads.
If you want the product, then Buy it, if you dont then dont. If you want to talk about if its a good or not, then takeit to the General board.
How long would a thread last in any of the other boards if it was like the ones here has been getting about that product?
One of the things I liked about BRLs boards, was that once you had one product, you could post to the boards for all of them, please dont force me to change my mind about that.
If you wasnt to slag, (or indead compliment) the SDK or the concept of the SDK, then do so in a non programing thread
Well I'm one of the "complainers".
Please don't get me wrong. I LOVE Blitzbasic 3D! But an outdated SDK for 100$ is some kind of "rip-off" for me, even for the guys who already own BB3D and BMax (well I own only BB3D).
Ok, I don't have to buy it, but I wonder who will use it?
C++ users? I mean, for 200$ I get a next gen game engine (C4 engine) which uses shaders and so on. Or I can use other engines like Irrlicht... ;)
I think this is a good way for BMax users to get fully 3D support, but they should get a discount!
Ok, I don't want to flame here, this is just my opinion, may be it's a wrong one, and I want to apologize if I offended someone. I really like BB3D and I can even understand why it will not be developed anymore...
Regards - Xaron
I have to agree with Xaron on some points there.
I peronally own all the Blitz products to-date, but will not be spending another $100 on this - despite the fact that it will allow me to work in my beloved C#.
I love Blitz3D, for me, it's still the best by far in terms of accessibility, but I can't bring myself to pay for something that I FEEL that I already have! - even if I haven't!
I would pay $50 for it.
<snip>
I can not but fully agree with Xeron and Dazze
I agree with Xeron and Dazze, but, maybe the better solution
is the upgrade of this robust 3d engine ?
Imagine a blitz3D with actual rendering, shadows, parralax
mapping, real hdr, shaders etc ? I say yes ! :)
I'm registered user, but i agree, 100$ for a directX 7
engine is a little bit expensive... I'm buying it only for
the OOP programming possibilities.
But i'm free to not buy it ! :) and keep my old blitz3D :)
I find that a good product ! And the mix between maxgui
+ blitz3d viewport is a great stuff (a little bit bugged
for the moment,but its really cool).
Imagine a blitz3D with actual rendering, shadows, parralax
mapping, real hdr, shaders etc ? I say yes ! :)
I can imagine it too, but I would prefer seeing this in action...:D
I mean, for 200$ I get a next gen game engine (C4 engine) which uses shaders and so on.
So, twice the cost and not much good for shareware? :P
Use the right tool for the job: if you want to write cutting edge shader-based games, and have the art resources to make proper use of such high-end features, then Blitz3D isn't what you need, and I'm sure C4 would be ideal.
If you want to write and sell stable shareware or indie games (that you know are going to run almost everywhere), and you're on a tight budget, then Blitz3D is perfect. If you sell only 5-10 copies of such a game you've made your money back.
I know Blitz3D is perfect for that indie business. But the C4 engine includes a lot of editors and other stuff, too. And yes, it is 100% above the price of the Blitz3D SDK, but it's worth it. You don't even have to know shaders there, as the complete (per pixel) lighting is made inside. ;)
And yes, Blitz3D is great and you get very nice results very fast. I'm sure, this SDK is just the plain BB3D as a DLL. So there won't be any updates in the future. It's just a question of time how long DX7 support will be there in Windows. Luckily DX7 is emulated now in Vista which creates better results than in XP where almost no modern graphics card is made for DX7 any longer.
If I want to write and sell stable indie games using BB3D everything is fine. But if I use C++ there is just no need for such an SDK. I'd never start a DX7 project these days. Why should I invest months or years in a dying DX version? What happens, if M$ doesn't support DX7 any longer? And please don't say this will never happen. ;)
Again: I like BB3D very very much but in my(!) opinion it's too expensive for existing customers (like BMax users) and it's just no option for C++ users. But I wish you all the best, looking forward for some real new improvements and wish you a lot of new customers... :)
Regards - Xaron
edit: BTW: The C4 engine is a very clean and easy to use engine, perfect for indie games. :P
I'd never start a DX7 project these days. Why should I invest months or years in a dying DX version?
Because many indie gamers don't have machines capable of running anything more power hungry than that?
Bah. A 100 bucks is damn good value as far as I'm concerned. Thanks BRL.
As Amon mentioned, $100 is £65 (after tax) in English quids... What do you want for £65... Mark to actually write the game for you!?!
Its roughly the same price as 2 PS2 games, its a night out in Newcastle (without going clubbing), my fish tank costs the same... In other words, its not expensive in retrospect.
People have been banging on for years for BRL to release a Blitz3D SDK... Now they have, what do they get... grief!!!
If you dont want to buy it at $100, then dont bloody buy it, use something else instead, its that simple!
Dabz
EDIT:And regarding the topic title, yeah, that could of been better! :)
James Boyd is right - I'm still waiting to see someone with all this super-duper pixel shader power make an indie game that doesn't look like rubbish. As an artist, when I think about developing for something like the C4 engine, I think about how much longer it'd take to create the art assets needed to utilise it properly. I've seen very, very few developers who can produce (or afford) the art assets needed to see newer tech engines shine well enough the average person will sit up and take notice. And, if you can't make the average Xbox360 player sit up and take notice, why are you trying to target them with a newer engine? They don't care about your bargain basement attempts to harness shaders and normal maps.
I've seen guys with all the candy in the world, and all the GUI editors and other junk they could possibly get the hands on, still produce horrible looking (and horrible playing) games. When I see someone push BlitzMax's 2D prowess, or DX7 to its absolute limits with awesome textures and detail in a game that doesn't suck, I'll listen to the people complaining and start believing they can handle (and afford) to use the newer tech available.
Untill then... well, that $100 or so you spent is only 'incorrectly priced' because you're not doing anything with it.
My two cents.
This is a 2001 DX7 Engine with no feature upgrade path... no matter how you package that... no feature updates... most people would call its development... DEAD.
And there are plenty of live, continuously developed, more up to date alternatives around this price that cost the same or less for the indie developer.
...sorry its, disappointingly, is definitely not for me...
Those who need it, good luck.
@Reactor: Regarding the C4 engine: The meshes are all the same, but the lighting is completely different. Have you ever heard about per pixel lighting? Please see the difference to vertex lighting. *g* Unlimited light sources, soft shadowing, all this is possible, the meshes are the same. Hell, even the shadowing is possible with DX7, too. We are in 2007. ;)
But I agree, that all these graphic things doesn't say anything about the game quality. I just have ONE problem with DX7: How long will it be supported? Is it worth to start a project in DX7? Ok, in Vista it runs fine. And after that? Do I have to deliver an emulator to run my game? ;)
@big10p:
"Because many indie gamers don't have machines capable of running anything more power hungry than that?"
Uh... I head no clue tha all indie gamers have PC's from the last century. Pixel shaders were available since the good old GeForce 3(!) from 2001.
Regards - Xaron
>I mean, for 200$ I get a next gen game engine (C4 engine) which uses shaders and so on.
>So, twice the cost and not much good for shareware? :P
Go Torque, maybe it's a bit cheaper($150) and you get source.
Uh... I head no clue tha all indie gamers have PC's from the last century. Pixel shaders were available since the good old GeForce 3(!) from 2001.
You'd be surprised at the crapness of many indie gamers' PCs. I only have a GeForce2 GTS, myself! :)
>You'd be surprised at the crapness of many indie gamers' PCs. I only have a GeForce2 GTS, myself! :)
Hehe. Well shame on me. I still own an GeForce 4 MX(!). Your GeForce 2 is better than my MX-crap. :D
Regards - Xaron
And there are plenty of live, continuously developed, more up to date alternatives around this price that cost the same or less for the indie developer.
And yet for some reason none of the people who are always advocating them trundles off to buy one. Or if they do, they're not gone long. Strange that.
No, you're wrong! This is why:
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Looking for [other] game engines?
http://www.devmaster.net/engines/ I'd never start a DX7 project these days. Why should I invest months or years in a dying DX version?
One day I'm going to write a book called "101 Pathetic Excuses For Not Doing Anything In Blitz".
Be warned I'm taking notes.
@GfK: That will be an interesting read=)
No, all opinions are valid,
Rubbish. There are plenty of invalid opinions. Any opinion that can be contradicted by fact, observation or experiment is invalid.
One day I'm going to write a book called "101 Pathetic Excuses For Not Doing Anything In Blitz".
I can't be arsed anymore. You can quote me. :o>
I say all opinions are equal, but only in that none of them can ever be true.
I don't see why the SDK needs to continue development if it already has a decent feature set. Obviously it's going to be the future Max3D product that will have support for the latest technologies, and this SDK is more of a stop-gap and a way to wide the market appeal.
Xaron, do you really need per pixel lighting? (and yes, I know all about it) Have you managed any decent art with DX7?
DX7 will be around for years yet. Do you think you'll be able to keep those fancy per pixel shaders and lighting effects looking the same in a few years when drivers and graphics cards change? It's hard enough to get something working properly now. DX7 is meat and potatoes stuff. It's simple, it works solidly, and it has more chance of working flawlessly in a few years than many other things.
Eventually though, all things will go the way of an emulator, so there's no point being paranoid about it.
..die thread...dieee
Blahblahblah
Im happy with my initial investment in b3d and have made a fairly tidy sum from it considering i only do it part time.
After all a lot of work probably went into creating the interfaces and testing it so why shouldn't they charge for it if they want to, and lets face it 60 odd quid is an average night out.
If brl want to charge me for opening the door to even more power and still able to use the b3d core commands from bmax or c++ then i would say ok sure!.
But,
If i was staying with windows i would be interested but am moving slowly more towards mac and linux (thanks to my complete and utter dissatisfaction with vista) so am looking for a more cross platform solution like minib3d, irrlicht or something.
