Is Match-3 and Mystery Games all there is now?

I'm starting to wonder. Soooo many match-3 and crime solving games are just flooding the market. It's like no one is trying to come up with anything new. And these game companies are pumping them out monthly. It's making me quite ill.

Yea?

They'll make more of whatever's selling. Why should anybody come up with a new idea when they can make more from a rehashed concept?

True. but it sux.

That may be true but still, there's no new ideas coming in. It's very stale in the casual game market right now imo.

All they're doing is remaking Diamond Mine over and over and over and over......and over....

Plus with the mystery games, you're looking for a list of items in a visual collage. Click on it, it goes into a sack. More floods of that type. I know it's business (I have a degree in business). You ride the train till it derails. Still, it makes me ill. Probably because I actually have a passion for game making or....because I'm not getting any of the booty. /shrug

Has the casual market ever been anything other than stale? Casual games is like easy listening music. Bland, inoffensive, middle of the road, familiar. If I want to find new, exciting, innovative games, I don't look on casual game portals.

IndyGamer (sic) TIGSource, JayIsGames, ArseCast, Retro Remakes ( well hardly original, but still.. ) GameTunnel.. these sites don't lead me to believe that Match 3 and Where's Waldo games are all that's out there.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Another bad thing for us indie dev types is when the market becomes as saturated as it is right now with match-3 games, only the ones that are visually superior will do well. And we all know we don't have the means to compete with the big boys when it comes to artwork. :(

I agree with you Chroma, it is pretty disheartening to see loads of very similar games come out. I mean, four of the last five games posted on the main page news are puzzle/match-3 games, all of which we have seen before. Not to say they aren't great games, the authors obviously put a lot of effort into them, but they have all been done before, and now it comes down to who can make the best graphics and eye candy and music and not who can design the most exciting, orignal game.

If you want something great in a indy price range i advice you to try/buy Sam&Max at http://www.telltalegames.com . Episode5 "Reality2.0" was really good like the last one of season1 called "Bright side of the moon". They've improved a lot in these two and if you like adventures you won't regret it.

@Gabriel
Did you play through already?

I'm ashamed to say I haven't found time. I've bought and downloaded all six episodes, but haven't finished Episode 2 yet. When I'm feeling a bit more relaxed about my current project and happy that it's back on time, I will definitely be going back to play them all though. I've loved every minute so far.

Ahhh...

Really play it when you have some time and if not then just steal some time! ;O) So far i would say:

e1 great to have a quality adventure back but way too easy and some annoying characters.
e2 great new characters but some of the locations weren't this good.
e3 good but too short.
e4 long and better riddles.
e5 good riddles and a great idea only scratching the surface with fantastic music.
e6 good riddles, really funny and hurray more weird, a lot of references to The Dig(!!!) and other LucasArts adventures and in space!

:O)

Here's a thought: Maybe since the same'ol thing is surfacing time after time, why don't we (collectively, not pointed at anyone) produce it? I mean, I have ideas that are different from other people's ideas. Naked War was an original based upon past goodies right? It did well.

Granted, I agree programmer art is well... um... let's say its not art. At least mine anyways :P What I am getting at is we have a market opening for a different type of game. Any of us could find something and go with it. Remember the old adventure games, or the classic games like Frogger, Defender, and the like? Well... Who says we can't take them old goodies and slap some twists and turns to make something old, well new again?

I have thought long about this very topic. Mac games in particular seem to follow the same trend and the PC market is. I want something different, maybe a bit familiar, yet fun and addictive. It could even be a simple concept. Who cares as long as its fun right?

My 2 pence

Any match 3. At this point. Isn't a great game. By definition, it is at best, decent.

Let's stop pretending that people STILL making match-3 games are doing anything other than trying to make a quick buck. Unless they are DRASTICLY changing up the formula.. like Puzzle Quest.. Even then.. making another puzzle quest doesn't count.

I'm drawing a line in the sand. You are no longer creative if you are considering making a match-3 game. Puzzle games are still ok. But Match-3 is dead to me.

After today. Your game is not a 'great game' if it is a match-3... I don't care how much time, effort, or artistic skill went into it's production.

I agree with that. I like different stuff. Match three is for wasting my time when I don't have *anything* better to do.

There is so much else out there that could be developed. Even if its not creating something new, but something other than match 3.

I think you have to factor in somehow the kind of audience that are looking for these games and the size of the potential sales. There are different types of people. Some people find it really appealing to have some radically different unique cutting edge game, whereas other people are not interested in that. They might give less credit to appearances in general, and might be less picky, and so more open minded, which means the game doesn't have to pull off some kind of game-design miracle, it just needs to be nice enough. I think that's why these casual games are so similar. The customers are not that interested in `serious shopping` or getting the best possible game. They have much lower standards than the guy wanting the state of the art.

Obviously people are buying these barely distinct games so clearly the rules about what is important are not the same for everyone. These casual gamers are much looser in their preferences and more easily pleased/satisfied. It's kind of like these games are your staple diet, sort of bland, something you'd consume in large ongoing quantities, rather than some `one-off` super-delicious dessert. The pace is difference. The mood is different. So the form doesn't need to change very much with each incarnation. They want the same basic principles, nothing too out of the ordinary, nothing that would require such a big learning curve. This is the kind of people that they are. If you try to market some flashy high-tech game to these same people they won't be as drawn to it. It'll look too extreme, too involved, too specialized. They want generic, they want repetition, they want comfortable familiarity not shock value. So this type of market for these type of people is always going to be a place where you only occasionally see something new or that stands out, and otherwise is just a general pool of sameness.

The kind of people that would be interested in more unique distinct games are different types of people. Its in those markets that you'll see the new ideas and original designs. Such things have different appeal to different people. New and original does not always equate to appealing for everyone. It's you as a programmer/designer that likes original ideas and creativity, which is why such things seem appealing to you. Who will share your interests? Other programmers? If you want to make a product that will appeal to types of people different from yourself you're going to have to put yourself in their shoes and not focus on what you personally would like. Being able to do that is knowing your audience. Otherwise if you only make types of games in types of ways that appeal to you as a hobbyist, what you produce will probably only appeal to people who like the things you do. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a different section of personalities that you're aiming at.

All that said I do think personally that a lot of the original ideas have come and gone already and we're running out of anything truly original. People prefer to take something done before and redo it in some kind of `better way`. There is only so much originality to go around.

I disagree... I'm sure a lot of these match 3s are making decent money.. but I also bet that 99.9% of them might just get a few hudred sales across all the portals.

Regardless. If you are making a match-3 you don't deserve the respect and amiration of your peers for simply being able to bring it to market.

Anybody with enough stick-to-it-ness can bring a match-3 to market. That is a lot like giving props to a business major who was able to get a job as manager at wendys... sure.. they are a manager.. not everyone can do that... doesn't mean it is noteworthy.. or should have a statment like:

"Not to say they aren't great games, the authors obviously put a lot of effort into them, but they have all been done before, and now it comes down to who can make the best graphics and eye candy and music and not who can design the most exciting, orignal game."

said about them.

No. They aren't great games just because they were COMPLETED! They could have the best graphics, sounds, pointless plot and all make a billion dollars. That won't make it a great game. Perhaps a great business success story... But not a Great Game.

It is almost like the Indie games scene has been replaced by the causal games business... I could count on one hand the number of innovative indie titles to come out in the last year...

Compare that to indie films, or indie music.

I understand the rationale for why these games are here and why there are so many flavors in the mix of it all. I don't think that is really the point to which this topic is of. I mean there is a sea of these games in comparison to other style games. Its harder to find other than this same style game.

My point was if you don't like it, then build something that suites you. Try to market it if that's your fancy. In the end, you made a difference by making something outside todays trend. I also leaned on the Idea of remixing ideas - as you also stated.

I'm just what you said, a hobbyist game developer. I am not looking to make money off games I write at the moment. For me, its the challenge of making the game, then sending it out to see the reaction of the world. If it becomes a hit, good. Otherwise, it was fun anyways.

I believe there's only so much you can do with a match-3 game. You have a grid of gems and you slide them to make a match-3... The only thing that's changing is the theme. Gameplay and Theme; the two main components of a casual game.

I'm telling you I swear they're pumping out about 1 new match-3 game a week. Even if I wanted to buy one it would be like

Print Rand(1,1000000)

Ok, I'm gonna buy match-3 game number 968,335 woohoo!!

I got into wanting to make a casual game so I could make some fast money(not exactly the right reason). But my conscience won't let me regurgitate this crap and call it my own. My quest for a unique puzzle game concept continues...

You should adapt Numberwang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6RbP3CNUg

Card games and platformers like Fizzwizzle are a good bet.

Btw, someone forgot to mention Tapper clones.

I prefer Wordwang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCHktd1VrGY

I'm sure someone will come up with a clever and fun new idea that'll catch on, and make lots of money. Then every other indie will latch on and make derivatives of it for years to come. The portals will sell every other version as indies try to one-up the last big derivative hit. Rinse Repeat. It's business, but it works.

Maybe Alex...or maybe todays kids have so short an attention span that match 3 games fit the bill nicely.

After, to be followed by match 2 games then AutoMatch games where you just sit and watch hehe ;)

Only it's not kids who are playing match-3s.

Maybe someone should do a match-3 crime solver and rake in some cash. :P

Now, I'm gonna laugh when the day comes where I see that game come out big10p!

sure ive already seen a match-3 crime solver done
having a look to see if i still got the demo

ah linky

http://www.planetozkids.com/ozzoom/games/crime-puzzle-game.htm

Shoulda guessed it's already been done. :)

Bejeweled with postage stamps...what's next?

Thats just hilarious! I about fell on the floor with laughing pains!

http://www.jesperjuul.net/text/swapadjacent/

@Grey: this is interesting, thank you!

That was an awesome read Grey. Thanks for posting that link.

welcome. Sheds a bit more light on the match-3 and zuma genres, maybe gives an understanding of why people like me made match-3s.

Well I'm not questioning why you made a match 3. I know why. At least it had a valid purpose to make a match (free munchkins).

They all have the same gameplay so the only way to improve them is to do it with better graphics and sound. That's why only the ones that look the best will sell now. And that's why I'm not even going to bother. I laugh at the match 3's coming out now that try to incorporate strategic matching in such a randomly matching game. Match 3 wood to gain 3 wood resources to build a house. /rollseyes It's like a cheap coat of paint.

My only option is to shoot for original gameplay. Ride the unique game wave of success until all the clones appear and suck out the market.

I want to also clarify here that I don't think poorly or bad about others that wish to make any genre game. It takes time and energy to do development on any genre. So, its good that people complete their masterpiece, and feel proud of their accomplishments; however, I'm to the point I no longer care for specific genres personally. They became "wore-out", like eating at your favorite food joint. In this case, and my point, there's more of these coming out than most any other genre. It becomes blander as each new one comes out. Sure, they all have their extras and differences. I guess they really just aren't my cup o'tea :P

I go to BigFish Games site and most every new game is mystery or Match-3.

@Grey: The read was very interesting! I appreciate the history. Took me back in time for a bit :)

I am SICK of all the match 3 or whatever; they are flooding the market like the Educational games did in the 90s. Its pathetic. I stay clear of them, they're nothing but poorly done rip'offs with limited appeal and originality.

Said more shortly. Match-3s might sell, they might have the potential to make lots of money. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be ashamed as a designer for making one. It is a cheap shot into an easy to create easy to reap market that requires little talent to pull off as a creative individual. If money is your thing, go for it, but don't expect people to respect you for it. Like a hair-metal band in the 80s doing a ballad. It is just lame.

Lame? its stupid ... beyond lame.

Woah, hold your horses there. The subtle decisions and polish that goes into the games makes a massive difference in playability at the end. Nothing to do with graphics or sound. Quite a few games that didn't look great have sold well on the portals, and loads of games that do look great flop badly.

They have the 'same gameplay' in just the way that Aation RPGs or FPS games or shooters have the same gameplay, and just like anyone who doesnt play FPS games will be happy to lump them all into one basket and call them the same, people do the same thing to casual games, but to the people that play them it is NOT the case.

check the front page of this website! what do you see? same old standard run-of-the-mill ripoff games. nothing new in terms of quality, graphics, playability or features ... just spinoffs ...

I'm talking specifically about Match 3 games. Subtle polish doesn't mean jack with such a saturated marked; you need BIG polish (ie graphics and sound). Swapping 2 gems to make a match of 3 is pretty cut and dry. Your theory might have rang true a few years ago but not today.

Maybe I'm not looking deep enough, but then there's not much depth to a match 3 game...

Btw, I'm not trying to discourage anyone. I'm just saying try to spice it up. In the end, do what you want...I do. :)

I agree with some points in that the classic match 3 style is a bit cut and dry but it will not fall from grace for a long time to come.
It is the most casual format available to the market and the format is far from drained.

One Main Factor about the match 3 casual games in a company perspective is the rate of return. You are limited to a ratio of
Developement Costs * GameComplexity vs Small return.

For a casual game to survive the norm is to have it on as many gaming portals as possible as these are the main buyers of this game type (Would love to see how steam are doing with popcap sales) and this will
1. increase unit sales due to bigger audience
2. lower return due to portal royalties.

Remember also these factors

A Dev who chooses to release only on CD has the customer option of
1. Buy
2. Dont
okay 50/50
and this can be pushed either way buy packaging (oooohhh looks good)

A Dev who only releases online
1. Download ?
2. Dont
3. Buy
4. Dont

okay 25/75 now that a bit of a drop ie 50% for giving people the option not to buy after they try.

due to the above factors there are few risks you can take and still have the chance of a good return hence why most changes to the match-3 format are very small sometimes that small it almost seems the same as the last one.But the format still evolves and we all learn from the others successes and flops.

It's not easy to come up with a completely new style of game which will be popular. It is easy to come up with variations on a particular style of game. And these variations usually eventually lead to a much different style of gameplay.

For example, first you had tetris.

Then you got games that clones tetris with peices that were made of three blocks or five blocks or varying numbers of blocks, and the blocks maybe were made of groups of gems stuck together. (Sega's Columns)

Then you got games where you had gems but instead of filling the board, the board was already full and you swapped the gems to make groups. (Bejweled)

Then you got games where you went back to the empty well, but whole rows of blocks of different colors would fall at once, and you couldn't control where they fell and instead oyu had to swap the blocks in the rows that were already there, like bejeweled. (Super Collapse)

Then you got games where instead of swapping items, you slid the rows and columns to make the matches. (Pokemon Trozei)

Now, you coudn't really say that Pokemon Trozei is like Tetris, could you? But each step along the way one game was fairly similar to the last with only one small change to the gameplay.


It might seem that all the games right now are swapping games and mystery games, but that's not entirely true. Some word games have been successful, and Pop Cap seems to come out with a wider variety of games, and they're one of the biggest, if not the biggest, casual game producer. Bust a move clones seem to be popular. Oh and don't forget Diner Dash clones. That's what Ice Cream Showdown which I was working on was supposed to be. But not a clone exactly. An evolution of the genre. Just like those puzzle games I listed. If you make a pure clone of another game then your game probably won't sell that well, you need something different that makes it unique, even if overall the gameplay mechanic is really similar. AND even if it is just giving it a really fun theme and different powerups that make it more fun to play. Anyone could have made bejeweled. But PopCap made bejeweled FUN.

And then you fell asleep from sheer boredom.......

I'm saying most casual game dev's are pumping out match 3 and mystery games...not that all games are match3/mystery. I'm saying everyone's trying to get a piece of the market and it's getting very saturated. I'm saying subtle polish doesn't do much in a saturated market. I'm talking specifically about match 3 (bejeweled clones...board full of tiles...swap 2 tiles to make a match3). There's a plethora of them released daily it seems. It's not going to end and I realize it. A person only has so many games they're able to make in their life based on time. I'm just choosing not to make that sort of cookie cutter game.

What I do agree with is creating a vaguely similar but different gameplay mechanic as opposed to just ripping off the usual gem swap match 3 thing.

I agree with Michael on the polish issue. Don't forget that we've both made several games so have some idea. Polish sells. It's not just graphics and sound (although they help of course) it's little tweaks to the gameplay that make it smoother, with better user feedback, and ultimately more fun/addictive. Combine that with a new variation on gameplay mechanic, as Chroma says, that is fun as well (not all variations are fun) and you may have a portal hit.

This sort of comment is always disappointing especially if the author has not completed a professional level game that has taken hundreds of hours of work from programmers, artists and musicians each one of whom has had to put buckets of creativity into all aspects of the game from the options screen to the particle effects to the level end music. If someone on this forum spent the same amount of time and effort making an R-Type clone, they would be hailed as some kind of programming god and the amount of "creativity" would not be questioned. Different standards would be applied because of the game genre. Just because you don't like a genre doesn't mean everyone in it is "talentless". I don't really groove to Jazz, but imagine I said all Jazz musicians lacked talent/creativity - ha.

In the highly saturated match 3 market, the level of polish required has skyrocketed beyond the capabilities of the solo indie developer. It doesn't take having released a game to realize that...

If you take all the people involved in making a game and the expected return, it's hardly worth the effort when the big dogs are pumping out match 3s with uber polish every week. It's not profitable. 4 years ago? Sure, crank out a match 3...today? No dice. The corporates have sunk their teeth into it and the little guy gets the squeeze.

The bar has been raised so high that I don't think anyone here could make a successful match 3 game anymore. Jewel Match was the last one.

Oh, I'm sorry, you'd better ring up Popcap and let them know that what they're doing isn't working.


I haven't seen anything released on the portals that's beyond the abilities of a three man team - programmer, artist and sound/music guy. In fact, most games at the big game houses are developed in teams of four or less. I don't know if it's changed, but the traditional Popcap model was one artist, one programmer and one producer.

You're right that its a hell of a lot harder than it used to be, and even that it may not be smart to try for that market. Instead of discussing it on the forums, treat it like a competitive advantage and develop a strong title in a different field. But please,


Actually, it does. I used to use that excuse all the time, too, before I shipped something, and I was wrong.

Oz was released after Jewel Match and has had over 1,000,000 downloads and made thousands of sales and two retail details. Is that successful? Also Holiday Bonus made a profit :-)

Jazz is a bad example. Compare artists like The Mars Volta, Nine Inch Nails, or Miles Davis, to Britney Spears.

Or hell.. Even a band like Pearl Jam or Creed to Britney Spears.

Match-3 is the Britney Spears of game genres. The Mars Volta would be some genre-bending masterpiece that annoys the general public.... Miles Davis is like Peter Molyneux... and Nine Inch Nails is like... well.. First Person Shooters in general.

I'm not saying that putting out a match-3 is any more or less hard to polish off. To make run correctly and to add dips and doodles to, or to make grahpics for, although there is a lot to help inspire you visually. And musically it wouldn't be any different than pretty much anything other than some grand RPG perhaps..

But that doesn't mean it is respectable from a game design stand point.

Like I said, if all you are out to do is make some money and if it doesn't matter what you code/do art for, have some fun. Go for it.

If you want respect as a game designer, and not just someone who can bring a game to market, (Heaven forbid someone could do both) than you should strive for more. Maybe it will mean your game will be less successful, or less likely to be successful, and if that is a risk you can't take, fine. Once again, that shouldn't afford you any game design medals.

I'm tired of kissing the ass of anyone in the blitz community that can get it together enough to release anything. And then pretending it is good. I'm not saying what you did with the Bonus series is bad work. Additionally, what I said isn't retro-active. Future Bonus' will be considered by me to be lazy design. Not lazy code, or graphics, or polish, or marketing, or business practice. Just lazy design.

Same goes for anyone else who releases a new match-3.

There is a growing devide between the kinds of developers, I'm not sure where to draw all the lines. The more grass-roots and out-of-the-AAA-box indies of us want indie games to be a bastion of new ideas and design. The indie casual game devs seem to be every bit as corporate and profit-minded as the suits of a AAA power-house.

I'd like to think that great ideas that make it to the market polished and well-hewn will be as-or-more successful than a new match-3. The next big thing perhaps.

There must be other kinds of matching.. Other kinds of gameplay to steal. Ways to combine everything together to make a complete package that is both new and innovative, and also really easy to pick up and has a ton of depth.

Match-3 grabs the Chess-newbie market. But leaves out the Chess-Master. Match-3 is like a slot machine. It'll grab a bunch of blue-hairs but the high-rollers all play something with a little more to it, at least in their heads.

Right now, the casual games market is all slot machines and video-poker... But a proper casino doesn't just have those, they have everything from pure chance, all the way out to REAL-poker.

Actually, it doesn't. To claim is does is egotistical.

"Oh, I'm sorry, you'd better ring up Popcap and let them know that what they're doing isn't working."


Are you kidding? Popcap's game have metric TONS of polish. Try Peggle sometime. DAMN.

There's actually some proper rubbish on there, too.

I've always found match 3 games on PCs to be pretty uncomfortable to play. Way too much mouse movement; they can't be good for my wrist.
I have never seen how someone in the older / not geeky target audience who wants a relaxing break can enjoy this! Repetitive mouse movement hurts :(

Thus, there is lots of room for good innovation in this genre: The first person to write an ergonomic match-3 game wins!

I bet 90% of the match-3 userbase consists of bored housewives :).

Peggle and other popcap games (e.g. Bookworm adventures) have tons of polish both major (i.e. graphics/sound etc) and also subtle which makes the game more playable/fun. If you just had the major polish you still might make some good sales but the subtle stuff is what makes a lot of people love the game that little bit more because it turns a nice looking game into a game that is nice to play. Adding the subtle stuff is what takes the skill and it's what good producers know how to do. Basically you need BOTH.

These days, there has to be TONS of polish. :)

I'm telling you...it's the housewives. Housewives are attracted to shiny, candy-like games that make cute sounds and radiate accomplishment with instant gratification.

"YOU DID IT! GREAT JOB!"

And also tidying up. I'm not trying to be sexist here becaue I like tidying up too. Lots of games like Match-3 are about "clearing" the locked pieces away so you are tidying up the level. So are card games.

Did you read what I said? I said their games are full of subtle polish. That's the highest compliment I can give.


No, saying it doesn't is naive.

Are you saying that you already know what it's like to ship a game, the buzz you get from people buying it, how heartbroken you are if it doesn't sell, how exhausted you are when you learn that the last 10% takes 90% of the work and push on regardless?

Are you saying that you know how hard it is to FINISH something original, not just work on it, and how much harder original games are to balance and tweak and get just right in order to ship them?

Are you saying that you know what its like to debug the game when it randomly crashes (and it does, because unlike working on some demo that's barely complete, a full game is an order of magnitude more complex and harder to manage), and you have to fix it, no excuses, because people won't put up with crashes in products they paid for?

Are you saying that you know what its like to work on a game for 12 months, have it almost finished, and since it's not like anything that's selling, constantly question whether what you've created is any good (hint: Having nearly finished it, you've played it too much to really tell)?

Are you saying you won't learn a thing? Nobody who has shipped a game agrees. And frankly, you're not in a position to disagree, because you won't know until you try it.

one of the largest side-fields of study during my game design school progress was understanding the female gamer.

Men are easy to satisfy. Blow something up in a cool way, that made it worth their time. Women don't tend to do things that are a complete waste, they like the feeling that they are getting something done, or developing some kind of skill that will be useful. It is why things like knitting are still popular, even though it is completely superfluous in the modern era. Which is adverse to match-3 in most cases.

Women are also multitaskers, so they are much more likely to want to do other things -while- they play the game. If they can't do that easily, they will be less likely to play. That doesn't mean they want to do those other things -on- the computer.. Maybe they are watching soaps, or getting up to switch out the dishes or laundry, or doing the books... or taking care of the kids, running a business, or welding. Regardless, they are likely to be doing something else. Which is actually adverse to match-3.

Women welcome mini-breaks in the day, perhaps as a breather from multitasking, so a game that can be played for 5 min here, and 5 min there is also welcome. This one Match-3 gets very right. And the other classic games that women play, don't. Which is perhaps why match-3 has done so well.

Themes don't actually seem to matter to women, at least when they are interviewed. So all these flowers, gems, and other blatently sexist things are really secondary to these other aspects, if they matter at all.

Additionally, there is a reason women like to shop. It is not only a way to use one of their evolutionary enhancements, a better sense of basic math, but it also can be very social, which is also something women are biologically inclined to need. This is why games like The Sims, and MMORPG's draw a very high female audiance. It is also why Party games, and games like Guitar Hero and DDR are popular with women.

The big one is making them feel like they are gaining something from playing the game. Like I said, a man feels like he gained something from playing God of War. A fun expirence. This isn't enough for a woman.

RPGs do well, because they contain a lot of social and math aspects, even when simulated. They have strong, emotional stories which help to build that sense of worth and accomplishment. Lots of games add in collectables these days, these appeal more to women that the game alone, but that might be a very shallow enhancement and i don't know about of adding in collectables actually alters the male/female devide.

It is clear that getting into the female audiance can be very profitable. But there are OTHER even less-tapped audiances.

I find it ironic that even though games are STILL considered kid's stuff, there has NEVER been any serious attempt to create games specificly for them. The model seems to be, sign some popular cartoon show up and slap them into the game, then let that sell the game.

There are 2 targets with kid's games. The Parents, and the Kids. You should be able to target BOTH with the same game. Traditionally, this means "Batman: The Counting" on some leapster hunk of crap. Look mommy, it's batman! Oh, and it is educational too, let's pick this up.

I've NEVER seen adverts for educational games in mags aimed at adults, even parents. And I've only seen ads aimed at adults on TV during kid's shows. That doesn't seem right..

First step is to develope games that are actually fun. Both kids and parents are prone to repeat buys, so the more fun the games are, the better they will sell.

Next is to advertise them properly. Full-page ads in adult mags which parents read, talking about your game and why it's incognito educational gameplay is superior to Batman fighting numbers. And TV ads for the kids (and with text aimed at the adults talking about the educational aspects) that engage the kids and make them WANT the game. The result would be both parent and child wanting the same thing. Rather than the current situation where parent takes child to gamestop and they huddle over the used gameboy advance games for 20 min saying things like "Oh, they have batman, you want batman? You like batman." "Noooo..." "You want Dora? Look, she's exploring a mountain." "Nooo.." "Fine, what do you want?" "That one." "Honey... That one is too violent, it has some scarry guy with a red face and horns, lets get Dora."

Every single time I've gone into gamestop I've seen that exact same senario play out. And the end result is always an unhappy parent, an unhappy child, and a game that gets played once, and typically ends up back in the case within a week... Which is great for gamestop, but doesn't do a think for children's games.

How about the elderly? My mom works at a retirement home as an activities director and she has been bugging me for years to help her make some games for the residents. Most of them have a computer, allbeit an old one, and they all really want some games they might enjoy. Games that don't require eye-hand coordination, that are story-driven, have large easy to use graphics and control schemes, and which interest them. Mystery games, adventure games, but ones that aren't so tiny and without the emphasis on harder puzzles.

What about prisoners? Nearly all incarcerated people in the united states have access to computers, and even the internet. (although limited) There are a few million people in prison in the USA alone at any given time. Some of them get to play MMOs like WOW, and games like Second Life and enjoy doing so because it gives them an outside social life, They all make money they can spend on novelties while in prision, and there is absolutely 0 research into what they might want to play, let alone trying to get a government grant to build games for inmates that help foster good habits and teach life-skills like money management and etiquette.

What is the largest untapped market in the world? AAA Porn Games. There have been maybe 5 Porn games produced with a large budget, of them, maybe one I am not aware of is a good game. They all feature very tame pornography, too, when it is the perfect locale for the... darker... kinds of porn. I don't think I need to go into any more detail on what -kinds- of porn. Regardless, people are willing to spend 50+ on toys, but there are litterally NO decent porn games. The ones that are enjoyable to play typically lack good enough graphics to be a long-term affair, and more-so, the 3D ones should have an Oblivion style character generator as well as random generator for ENDLESS novelty in looks. There is a lot of research for movies, toys, and mags that you can use to determin what people want. And what they want is something that doesn't get old. Which essentially means an online or offline MMO kind of porn game. Constant additional new content of high-quality, and if online, a lot of novelty potential. Not to mention future updates to afford, ahem, force feedback controlers?

Doesn't exist, should, but everyone that COULD be tapping these markets is off making the next FPS or a new match-3.. It is disgraceful.

I don't want you to kiss my ass, I want you to put your money where your mouth is and develop what you keep talking about. There's Mars Volta, Britney Spears, and the guy who sits in his room who can play along to a few Nirvana songs complaining about the state of the industry. Don't be like the third guy. Spend your energy making (and finishing) cool stuff.

And stop telling developers who are out there, giving it all they've got how they should do things without having the courage to follow that path yourself. If/when you do, fine, complain away.

Case in point. YOU go make a porn game.

Michael, yes...I'm saying I know all about that. I've written a 2 song cd and put it up for sale. I only sold 1 cd. Trust me...I know what it's like to work hard on something, question yourself but push through anyhow. Music is similar, actually there are lots of things in life that are similar to shipping a game. To claim otherwise is what's naive.

Actually, I entirely agree with that. Finishing and shipping something is what's important, and congratulations for doing so.

I still stand by my comment though - put your money where your mouth is. You can't change the world, only yourself.

takes time to chew things, michael. Chroma and I are chowing down rather nicely.

And so far, it is delicious.

Finishing something is always rewarding in and of itself. I am aiming to actually complete the first section of my project in the up coming weeks. People will either like it or not. Right now, I am winding down on one of the tools: a 2D World Designer. Its something I've wanted to make for some time, and besides I've needed one that does what I need for ages. Its going to remove a tremendous crutch that I've used for years on completing a tile-map game. Its taken quite a bit of my time and its showing that its worth while (imho... you - collectively - may think it stinks) Tomorrow, I plan on giving the output files a test. The basic game engine will be written and testing the map to see if it can handle what I've written on paper it should!

Anywho... I thought I'd share some of my own thoughts and experiences. I've seen MANY people talk about stuff that I've never seen written. In fact, no one here has seen ANYTHING I've written unless they stumbled upon my site, or grabbed up one of the very few offerings at planet source code. I mainly keep my stuff silent. Its not ready enough for big time yet. But I thought the designer has matured enough it could take some extra eyes and hands to mess with it now :)

So my point in saying all this "around the bush and back again" approach was to state that many prolly go on developing stuff, and are like me that will not release anything about their work until its 90% complete. I have NO worklogs here in the community. So I have no proof of anything to back one bit of what I say here in the forums. (maybe a few posts with code that does nothing much)

To my final point... Its fun to do PERIOD. Games are meant to be fun to play and to develop (OK, I find them fun to develop!) I enjoy seeing others works posted, no matter how good or trash it seems to me. They did their deal. My hats off to those that have done a complete project or two.

Now, personally, I have my tastes in games as each of us has their own. I don't like Match 3 games much anymore. I've played them, but I grown tired of them. My preference is Action/Adventure. Zelda and the likes. I love pure adventure where I really have to think to solve riddles and puzzles. Pure puzzle games like the incredible machine series. Fun stuff. I also have my ideas on how I can take from those styles and make something truely unique (or so I hope!)

Make the game you want. Market it. Have fun. Re-iterate... HAVE FUN! :)

I already have and soon I will again.

The game we're working on right now is in the evolutionary process but we're hoping for an early October completion date. Finishing a complex project is hard to do. Finishing a hit game is even harder. I don't claim it will be a hit game but that's what we're shooting for...not to just get something out there so I can say "hey, I made a game and you haven't...so now you all must listen to me because my word is law".

Chroma: Are you still making that match-3 game with DampeS8N?

it never was a match-3 game... That game you called a "Chuzzle Clone" is on the back-burner... This idea is an evolution of something Chroma has been thinking about doing for a long time.

We don't want to talk about the game tho. When we release it, you'll know why.

Yep we changed gears and are going with something a bit different.

Oh OK, it was originally a Chuzzle clone which involved matching-3 of course.

Chroma how did yor orbs game work out?

I guess it was sorta like chuzzle, then after the code was in place and match 3s were popping etc...we got disgusted...

Orbicus has changed and has evolved to where it can't be called Orbicus anymore. It got melded with the Edmund game and right now we're working out the subtle mechanics of it.

actually.. Only you thought it somehow involved match-3 Grey.. That idea didn't deal with match 3 at all.. the matching was more like "The Same Game" in that once you slid a bunch of tiles together, you would click them to hilight all the connections and the score would grow drasticly based on how many tiles were in the connection.

The Orbicus/Edmund hybrid game we are working on is SO much better than it that we swiched gears... It was one of those. OMG, that's going to be the best puzzle game ever released kind of moments.

But the other gameplay mechanic will work nicely for some other games...

Ah yes, I recall now, it wasn't match-3, just match-n.

The important thing is that it wasn't a straight up boring match 3 lol. I don't think the world could stand another one of those.

I bet it could ;-) In fact I bet more people could stand it than those who couldn't!

I bet it could stand another match 3 if it was top notch and had HUGE polish. :)

I feel that I may have a 5th one in me yet. The first four were mere practice pieces for this one, my magnus opus.

What you need to remember when going oh no not another match3 is this

Soldier of Fortune I & II
Quake I * II * III * IV
Far Cry
Bet on Soldier
Medal of hour I+II+III+IV+V +CCCMVVXXT (YOU KNOW ALL OF THEM)

These are FPS with a different spin on format Okay Some you like some you dont, Just because one is a bit pap doesnt justify all FPS being Naff.

Is this the one that you're getting all your art from big fish games?

@Duck: But those games are fun! :)

I can't help feeling that the Match 3 genre has been done to death. Then exhumed, kicked in the face, and cremated.

Its not a route I personally ever want to go down.

Chroma: My current game is for BFG and it's not a match-3.

Little OT: I have done a game (my first and unique at the moment). Of course it has no mega gfx & sound (I knew these limitations) but I've tried to contact all-the-chain in distribution (BFG & the others); all they answered me and this IS a good thing - it means they had a look - at least - at my creation; they gave me suggestions on improving gfx & sound & some little game aspects...(repeat - I knew these limits!) but the main 'unaspectated' answer is "the game is TOO MUCH difficult for our customers"...
So I think - that match-3 will be around for much much time - people (now I've understood this lesson) don't like to spend to much 'mental-resources' to play a game that should be written to relax & for spare-time.
(so I start to understand why games - I mean BIG game - are short (like HL2-Episode2 and other non-episodic) and not-impossible...for me it's a shame; but this seems to be the market now).

@grey: I'm waiting for the next game - I'm 'spying' all your moves :D

yeah that's it. Casual gamers (i.e. the biggest market of online games) prefer easy to play games they can pick up and play and put down again, not some kind of brain bending epic.

Yeah I've been having to (re)learn some intersting maths for this one, but it's only for the particle effects. Plus the whole multi-language support (well localisation) is a pain.

Grey you forgot to mention that the game should be fun. :( It's all about having fun man, not dull repetition. If you keep fun at the top of the list you'll do just fine.

of course, and for many, match-3 is fun.

Yeah but only a Match 3 with huge polish in such a saturated market, I agree!

There's no match 3 in the BFG top 10 downloads. I think finally people are sick of em. :)

Right. Now it has six versions of I-Spy and three Diner Dash clones.

Here's something I saw on the Indie Dev site posted by a fellow named Nexic:



This puts it all into perspective and couldn't be more true.