Mark's latest worklog

For anybody who hasn't spotted it:

http://www.blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1043

Looking forward to the new IDE \o/

I like where Max3D is heading, and gxLib also sounds interesting.

If this becomes 'Blitz3D goes Gamemaker', Im sure Mark can pull it off just nicely.

***** Max3D *****



My prediction is you will make an engine and editor pretty similar to valve's stuff. It will be like a cheap way us (your customers) will be able sell stuff with.

If you ask me you should make something that modifies existing levels ie select a bunch of triangles and assign properties to them.

And have it load B3D 2.0 files, or such. We will work out how to support your formats.

***** gxLib *****



As a customer I think I feel let down by you constantly reinventing the wheel and faffing around. I think this represents a collossal waste of time and lowers my faith in you delivering an end product everyone is asking for: 3D in blitzmax.

***** BlitzMax Docs *****



Dude, just make the website have the manual, keep it away from the IDE. Website is live data which updates, can be edited etc, blitz3d was getting there, with testers constantly revising and updating the docs.

Strip the IDE of docs, make it web based. Make the ide search your site if it has to. It saves time and the docs will be so much better with a bunch of testers constantly revising and updating them for you.

Another big waste of time...

***** BCC changes *****



Thats the only useful thing you've come up with in your worklog so far.

My advice:

Sorry if it seems like attacks, but its the truth from my point of view, like it or lump it, flameduck has his head up your where it isn't very sunny.

You need a guy like me who you threw in the trash, to give it to you straight.

Yeah I tested B3D, gave it a lot of love once, then obviously you thought I wasn't any good to help you further, probably listening to other people tell fibs about me.

Well I won't ever be used like that again, enjoy your way of doing things but if you want my advice, stop wasting time with crappy ideas like ides and junk, and finish that 3D engine.

Get that 3D engine done with, forget gui's and timewasting.

Jeez now I know why Mark doesn't post very often.

Bognor Regis? Yes, that IS an attack.

Speak for yourself. There are already 3D APIs you can use in BlitzMax. I gather Mark is clever enough to see that there's no point in him just writing yet another one, rather he's trying to write a set of tools that goes beyond just a 3D API. You seem to want him to reinvent the wheel.

The GUI seems to be critical to doing this. I doubt you've done anything in MaxGUI if you think anything really good can be done in it without doing a whole lot of custom stuff.

Doing this would lose all the flexibility of the self documenting mods system. Plus, not everybody who works on code is connected to the internet. I think your idea is quite horrible to be honest. I don't want to be dependent on my internet connection to code.

You have a really nice commenting history. Over 2000 comments and most seem to include the word 'crap'.

Excellent plan: Create an argument, then incinerate it with 7 lines of harsh bother.

Well, I'm not too sure about gxLib either, but I can see its usefulness for game GUIs. Also, as long as the choice of MaxGUI is there, it should be good...

Max3D with an editor: Mark doesn't tell us a huge amount about it, so I for one am not passing much judgement. It sounds pretty cool, but I hope it doesn't limit us in terms of content pipelines and that we are still entirely able to not use the editor if need be.
It sounds like Mark is still aiming to keep broad support for every idea instead of having a crazily limited engine that "does 90% of the work for you... 2% of the time."

Anyhow, my opinion is posted in the other, longer thread.

Anyone complaining about a custom UI in the IDE: I don't much like the things either, but you'd better check what web browser you're using to post that complaint... Internet Explorer and Epiphany are just about the only ones which use system-wide settings and themes.

I just want to say a big thank you to Mark for finally updating us. Sounds like we have some cool stuff to look forward to.

Keep up the good work and it`s nice to hear you`re still around. I was beginning to wonder. Maybe you could update us a little more often, most of us are behind you whatever you do.

Jason.

I would say, go Mark, go Mark, go Mark! Lets encourige him.. its mentaly a lot easier when everybody supports Mark on his way. And im sure he will enjoy working on this more. But i also do wonder why he lets all those down who have Blitz3D... just adding those few features would be great for each.

...and so it continues...

Let's start a "line" on how many positive to how many negative posts here... should be interesting ;-)

Otherwise, I guess I should do something useful, and finish another module... :-p

This all sounds good - though i am a little concerned
about the whole tool chain thing - this isnt going to
become a point n click fest is it?.. im all for editors, but i
dont want to HAVE to use them..if you follow :/

anyhoo...interesting read.

The worklog just had me scratching my head, tools could mean so many different things.

I would also like to see the 3D commands released, and then work on the tools. But I'll take what I can get.

In the other thread I expressed my disappointment ... no, that's too strong ... I expressed disinterest in a large non-native GUI. After a night to think about it, I thought I'd update over here.

I still think that a non-native GUI library has limited use outside game GUIs. However, if gxLib is can be easily used for game GUIs, and if either MaxGUI continues to be developed or if a better native style GUI emerges, then it's a win all around. well, mostly anyway; if the IDE ends up bing gxLib only some day it will be a net loss for the Mac users.

As for the other points in the worklog entry, I think the vague sketch of a very high level 3D/Game system sounds potentially very exciting. I'd love to see something like the array of editors that come in TGE, but in a less baroque system.

Regarding the sketch of the docs improvement, I have to say that I'm very happy to hear that Mark intends to put more time into this. I'm not sure I'm glade to hear of yet another markup language, but it's Mark's time, and if that's what floats his boat, good on him. If it were me, I'd probably adapt Markdown, but hey ... it's *not* me, so there ya go.

Finally, regarding language changes, the array addition sounds reasonably cool to me. There are loads of others I'd like to see. My top two would be cycle breaking GC a la Python and method overloading. There are others that would be much harder to do well, but that I'd love to have if a properly Blitz solution (read: powerful, but still simple) could be invented: (limited) generics, (limited) operator overloading, and a few others.

Anyway, in summary, I'm glad to hear from Mark, and some of his updates are intriguing. The important part is that he's communicating with his customers.

I think Mark is heading in a good direction. I am a little bit puzzled about making a new GUI system but if it turns out better than MaxGUI then maybe that's good.

I recognized a while ago that it isn't enough to just provide a `3D language`. Largely it's already in place in the form of OpenGL. What people need IS higher level tools. You need a creative environment where you can have the computer do what it's good at such as automating things, making it really easy to play with ideas and move things around, and take a lot of the complicated time out of creating a working product.

The only part that I perhaps disagree with is having it still be code-based. I think moving to a higher level really should mean you're making it easier for the user and thus more users will have the ability to create things with it. If they then have to dip into more complicated code-writing I think that's a confusion of `levels` of complexity and minset, and narrows down the audience. I think if you're going to go higher-level you should be automating a lot of things and generating code for the user. It really should be `just an editor` for the game itself, designed in such a way as to provide extensive freedom and flexibility, so that you can really do a lot of things with it without hitting walls, and to do them without having to learn a written language. It seems that where Mark is heading is to make `easier to use` interfaces that can be used by people that are able to write their own. The people who can't write their own aren't going to be able either to write the code needed to make things customized enough.

The project I'm working on (slowly) is to make an editing environment that provides a high level of creative freedom and automation and assistance by the computer so that you don't have to get into complicate things like figuring out algorithms and math and how to make something happen. I think then any kind of script would be more of a visual flow than manipulation of keywords and commands. Then you can provide full functionality at a high level making it accessible for people that wouldn't be able to understand programming.

I think the main thing making such an environment unfeasible in the past is that designs for such a thing have usually been far too generic and limiting. The minset that they spring from has been much too restricting and rigid. Then everyone typically complains of it being too generic and not being able to make anything with it outside of the type of games it was intended for. Even Torque seems to have that problem. I think that largely is a design issue and not something that has to be inherent to these kind of environments. But I don't see Mark really working toward that. It seems he's going to just build some editors and tools `for programmers`, which has the prerequisite of knowing how to program if you want to make things customized. I don't think that's the right approach, but it will be interesting to see how it turns out. I don't really see how it is a step up from the likes or Torque and more seems like an attempt to come up to par.

Thanks to Mark for the update.
But I'm a little concerned about the 'new stuff': how much time does it take to create these tools?
*IF* the '3d language module' (ala Blitz3d) is ready, why don't sell it NOW and sell the rest (editors & co) when they are ready?
Just my opinion of course...

To clarify I have been around since the old days of b.u.m and blitz on the amiga up till now.

I have been a staunch supporter of Mark but I simply think these ideas are tosh and he needs to focus on where his bread and butter used to be: blitzmax with a seriously good 3d engine and a simple editor to "enrich" the data imported by specifying the purpose of geometry.

Put simply, Leadwerks has already done what Mark seemingly is implying he will do.

If you want to all go ahead and attack my somewhat verbose post do so, its no bother of mine. I still cared enough to make my view known. I rarely do these days.

In addition: Blitz3D was definately mark's finest hour. A couple of years ago Mark had a real plan to follow on from Blitzmax (or even write it with blitzmax), a RAD game development system, and I think its a cool concept...

But the editor will need some true thought. I like the idea of renderware style game development, I think thats what he has in mind with his new gui lib.

Neither me, you or anyone here will dissude the stubborn git from trying and you got to admire that :-)

Sounds like this will be a good year for BlitzMax :)

I think it sounds really promising, I'm really interested to see how Max3D develops.

Thanks for the update Mark, it's really appreciated.

I was taking a look to wxWidgets just before reading Mark's post. It looks awesome. I'm looking forward to start using this new tools (I hope this year...):D

Keep up the good job!

Mmm, awesome? Being cross-platform is really neat, sure, but being based on MFC design wise is, really, totally not so nice. TBH I can't say for sure if I'd like it or not if I had to use it, but anything close to "MFC" really makes me shiver. If you've ever debugged some MFC code you know what I mean.

What the hell did I do this time? Anyway that's a very shrewd observation there, since I disagree with virtually every mayor decision Mark makes, including but not limited to not using wxWidgets, I must be Marks bitch. Because you know, that's what bitches do, right?

Absolutely. BRL has been lacking in the "complete product" department for ages. There are only two things I'm worried about:

a) Lack of integration with existing tools.
b) Support tools are being developed directly by BRL, and not (say) a strategic partner.

We're not customers. We've already bought his product.

What do you mean this year? I'd wager at least two more.

For once, I couldn't agree more.

In either case I'm glad Mark is doing what he wants to do, and I'm quite happy if Lowcs is right about him being too stubborn to be dissuaded by whining childish hatemongers.

I'm surprised everyone isn't really happy to get some more worklog news!

I'm surprised everyone isn't working on something. Seriously, why do I have to say this stuff when ENAY is around?

@FlameDuck

WTF is up with mixing quotes from several posters w/o attribution? It's very confusing for those who might want to go back and get more context. Further, quoting the way you did implies that the comments are all from the same person, and that is not the case.

Now, to respond to the bits that *were* directed at me:



Which tools are you referring to?



Do you mean because of the fact that it will keep Mark from working on core BlitzMax?



That is the very *definition* of customer. Those who have not yet bought his product are merely potential customers.

I don't think it's re-inventing the wheel and more of a case if you want something doing properly you often have to do it yourself...and as such a rethink and a new plan is needed.

A solid game editor will attract a swarm of new users if it emulates the standard of previous Blitz products...that half-way-house mappy thing excluded - though it won't cheer up many regulars around here it seems. If finances are healthy, then from a business point of view I reckon it's a wise decision to make - giving the users the proper tools for the job. Save a wad of time too, if you can get right under the bonnet of 3d engine straight away.

Based on the fact that there's already OpenGL, miniB3D, Ogre, whatever else, maybe Max3D wasn't as revolutionary as you were all expecting. Bundling tools which can help you set up scenes, shaders, do lightmapping, occlusion, etc. adds a lot more to the product's value.

I doubt you will be required to use the tools to achieve results, it'll just make things easier, and applying the whole Interface Builder comparison, it really means you'll be positioning, linking, etc. Interface Builder doesn't create much code for you but it does help create connections between related objects.

If you're worried about the GUI stuff, I wouldn't be. The reality is Mark would have to roll some sort of custom GUI for the tools anyway (MaxGUI is really lacking functions that you need to build polished, proper apps) - this way we get a standardised skinnable mod for it and everything will be able to be built in Blitz, and hopefully be open like the IDE is now.

Max3D’s new direction sounds interesting but it is years from release, so it’s hard for me to get excited about it. At least now we know BRL’s/Mark’s direction and can plan our own projects accordingly.

Mark is a very talented coder and designer, and it’s a shame he’s bored with API programming, because he could certainly deliver the goods I’m looking for.

Digression…

Over the past month, I’ve been evaluating numerous 3D APIs to use with BlitzMax and there’s one point that keeps strengthening in my mind: All I’m seeking is a slightly ‘updated’ version of Blitz3D. The architecture is simple yet versatile, the performance is great. Combined with BlitzMax’s awesome language features I’m confident I could code the games I’ve been planning (and partially completing) for years. Nothing else I’ve tried has delivered the right combination at the necessary performance level.

MiniB3D is coming along nicely, but the performance is still not on the same level as Blitz3D in areas that are critical for my projects: large meshes, collisions. And there are a few things missing like terrains, planes, native 2D commands, etc, that would make things a lot easier. MiniB3d is open source, I realise that, and I’d add these features myself if I had the ability – and that’s just it, we each have our coding strengths - low level 3D maths and OpenGL/DirectX aren’t mine, which is why I was attracted to Blitz3D in the first place.

Klepto’s Extended MiniB3D adds some very nice features, but it seems at the expense of performance. I’ve one test that drops from 96fps to 46fps (release build) by just using Klepto’s module instead of Simon’s – there are no large meshes, btw, so it would be pointless enabling VBOs. This is not meant as a criticism - it’s just neither MiniB3D nor Klepto’s extended version seems viable for my projects at this stage.

Anyway, back on topic, thanks for the worklog, Mark!

the gui isnt the problem,that will not take much development time compared to the engine itself

There isn't a forum tag for attribution?

Sorry about that, I just use the Find tool in Firefox.

No it doesn't.

Maya, 3D Studio Max, Eclipse, Photoshop, any tool one might conceivably use to generate content or code for ones game. That was the biggest weakness in AMOS/STOS.

Sure that too. Let's just say that in my opinion Marks tools have historically been pretty "barebones" compared to some of the other tools people have developed. (Maplet vs. 3D World Studio / Cartography Shop / Quill3D / Gile[s], MaxIDE vs. everything else, Nothing vs. Droplet, etc.).

Given that, I would prefer Mark spent his time doing what I know he's really, really good at and let someone else develop supporting tools.

That's certainly a matter of definition. If we're going my that definition, supporting your customers is just a money sink. Communicating to anyone who isn't likely to buy a product or service is a waste of time.

Depending on your timeframe, I'm sure they will be by the time you're finished (or close to). Otherwise there's always Irrlicht.

Not if it's going to suck, no. If it's going to be generally useful (like JFC/Swing) then it's going to take enormous amounts of time.

Yep.

Also yep.

You know, I considered developing most of my art pipeline with Eclipse integration in mind, the problem with it however was that there's no really effective way to use give my engine (written in BMax, so..) access to viewports in Eclipse. As such, it kind of shot down that idea.

One possible workaround I could see is running the engine as an executable in a sub-process and passing it a hook to the viewport. Then it's still really kind of iffy on how that would work out. One of those situations where shared libraries would be handy (or, in my case, considering writing the engine in a different language and using BlitzMax for game code). Edit: Also, if anyone has any thoughts on that, do e-mail me -- I'd like to hear about any means by which I can use my BlitzMax code within Eclipse.

It's a concern, but not one that immediately affects many people I think. Sure, if you were holding out for Max3D, this might mess you up, but then you'd be an idiot for doing that in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

True enough. If you give people a small update, they'll of course expect more. Problem is knowing when to say 'no' I think. For example, people were mad at hearing that Win98 would no longer be supported by Microsoft, despite it having been a long enough time to finally can support for the OS. In general, you can't please everyone, and as far as I'm concerned you should be more interested in pleasing the people who are easiest to sell to, and die-hard users are not typically those people.

Furthermore, I do not consider myself a customer. Customers buy things. I'm a user, I use what I purchased, and as such am no longer interested in purchasing anything. Some of you may still be customers just because of Max3D, but you're going to be customers while Mark takes his time to do what he wants. (Personally, I encourage that, considering it's what I've always done. Listening to people and, at times, reason has not yet yielded good results.)

Relevance to Max3D? What, you expect Mark to develop a program that is viable for your project? Get real, he's developing what he thinks is ideal. Whether or not it matches up with your plans is completely irrelevant. Find something available now if you want to make your projects and work with it until it is viable, at which point you will have no good reason to switch.

You know, I've never tried Swing. Seems to be a mixed bag as far as opinions on it go, as well. Personally, I'll opt for wxWidgets where possible, otherwise I'll just find something else that fits the bill. GTK, FLTK, etc. tend not to be among those since they're just a bit odd.

Also: I can make posts just as big as FlameDuck's.

Of course not and I don’t expect it. It’s good that Mark follows his own direction regardless of what others want or think. I follow the same policy myself…

I’m just a little disappointed there’s nothing currently available that meets my requirements. But that’s no big deal – I’ll adapt as necessary.

Just thinking about the 'new direction'...the most important competitor should be Leadwerks engine+world editor...and - it is a fact - the editor already exists, and the engine is coming out (with demos to demonstrate its potential).
Mark's project will coming out in late.
Sorry to point out

just my opinion of course...

Mark thanks for the update.

Your future development plan sounds great. The problem is that we are still YEARS (lol - I guess at least 2) away from a release of a "native 3d engine" for BMax. Your announcement has just confirmed that we have waited two+ years for a 3d egine for Bmax and we are still no closer to getting one. (how disappointing)

This is absolute BS. Lot's of people bought B3B for DX8.1 which never materialized, and then lot's of people bought MAX for MAX3D, and now Max3D isn't going to materialize either. First we get hyped into buying something, then it's changed, and then it's basically cancelled.

It seems that as we keep pouring money into this company, they have figured out that they don't actually have to deliver anything. They already know that we'll just excuse their dilly dallying, and wait another year(or 5) for a product that won't materialize.

Doesn't BRL have any pride left? How about releasing Max3D to the community and let the community finish it. If there is even anything to finish, that is.


Andy

I bought Blitzmax so I could learn the ins and outs while I waited for Max3D.

Since Max3D seems to have been abandoned in favour of some sort of '3D Game Maker', it'll be the last time I make that mistake.

I've just picked up Visual C# and Truevision. If that comes together then I'll probably be off.

I can say with some certainty that I won't buy another product from BRL under the pretence that <insert name of add-on here> will be released sometime in the next half-century.

Yay, more quoting. Andy and GfK, these go out to you with all my heart.

This is Sparta? No, actually, this is not BS. You were not promised anything with Max3D other than a 3D engine, and guess what? You're getting it. Max3D is still in development, you have not somehow been lied to or cheated, you just need to calm down and stop being so grumpy-wumpy.

I didn't buy it for DX8.1, and while it was apparently 'promised,' obviously Mark has said he was sorry for doing that.

I bought Blitz3D for what it offered at the time. I bought BlitzMax knowing it would not come with 3D or be, at the time, fully complete (specifically, I bought it during the beta period). I'm more or less happy with how it works, and I don't have many complaints over the language itself (some about BRL's modules, but I'm rewriting those, so no problems there). If you buy something without a guarantee and base it on good faith, well, I'm sorry, but you need to snap out of the whole 'good human' thing and realize that the world is not all candy-apples and flowers. There are farts and fires, too, and they like to pretend to be flowers and candy-apples. Get my meaning?

Considering Mark and co. are doing what they want to instead of listening to people like you, yeah, I'd say they have quite a bit of pride left. Only by giving in to the inanity that is your ideal world would they have lost all pride. If you don't like what you have, change it instead of complaining, otherwise you should just leave.

That's laughable. Really, it is.

Yes, it was your mistake for making assumptions on what exactly Max3D would be. Nobody promised some specific, exact outcome to you.

That would be a good idea. It's rather foolish to purchase something and assume your glorious, golden chalice will appear later.

...yup...I brought C4, and going to learn this thingy..not expensive for quite nice multiplatform engine as I can see so far..and I'll keep my eye on Flow...

You're quite the sycophant, Noel. When you were banned from here you did nothing but slag off BRL and Blitzmax.

But this is a moderated environment where people are required to have half an ounce of both respect and decorum. If anyone wants to slag it out they are asked to do so through the appropriate channels (IRC channels that is).

Clearly you were not paying attention to me when I gave my opinion of the IDE and modules. The language itself and BRL I have little problem with, and personally have very little problem with Mark (other than that he hasn't returned my e-mail about bcc). Pay attention and you'll find I'm more or less the same as I was then, only I'm not speaking out ("slagging") about what I did previously.

Edit: Also, I'll just consider this my last response to the thread in terms of negative responses to Mark's direction. Considering my engine was, at one time, moving toward much the same goal, I think I have a somewhat reasonable idea of what Mark is talking about.

I can say that many of you are probably far exaggerating this idea of it being a "game maker." Software like what Mark has described is not point and click. It's not that simple. What Mark is talking about here, I believe, is a full-blown game engine, not just a 3D engine with a point-and-click interface. If I'm wrong, he can correct me. Either way, it's obvious a lot of people are blowing this out of proportion.

I did not read any of the above posts shy of the first 1 or two, up until the argument started.

So Mark, nice work. I like the sounds of a more complete more filled out development suite , nice one.

Seems like your coming round to the DP Pro way of doing things, and thats something that I like, Blitz > DBPro, but DBPro has a lot more options, so if your planning to start developing more stuff like they have then Blitz will again dominate them.

keep up the good work.

On the documentation, Mark really needs to look into CSS! Seriously, all the beaf over the Max documents turns out to be inline html tags, now he's gone and done his own tags and split from html to make it simpler for him... Really what he needed to do was learn CSS and do it properly in the first place. No offence, but seriously, that's exactly what CSS was designed for and I learned it in an afternoon - it isn't hard.

I'll hold fire on judging the 3D system until I see it, mostly because i'm trying to deny that Max is going point and click... I like to have code level control over everything, and i'm not sure that's what he's working on.

I guess i'll be stuck on DX7 for a long time. Why are there no good 3D basics anymore? I'ts not as if we cant apply a sound file to a surface in B3D already, in fact, it's dead easy.

Personally, I think the 'Improved Official IDE' idea is a good one! OOP languages really benefit from a decent reliable IDE with things like intellisense (try writing .NET code without the Visual Studio IDE and you're into a world of pain!). It's also the public face of the product, so a good appearance make for a more professionally attractive package.

I also like the idea of generic bundled editors, but am wary of anything too restrictive on the content workflow. I hope there would still be room for external editors like Decorator-Max!

Doing something new is risky, but if done right it will pay off in spades.

'Cautiously optimistic' best sums up my view.

Why all the moaning about 3D engines? I just don't get it. I've not seen a valid excuse. You didn't have to wait for Max3D and you wouldn't have had to move over to it either. Thats why Flow is being written, there's also Irrlicht, and MiniB3D for those who want basic cross plaform 3D. I think the hole is begining to be filled quite nicely myself.

As for Marks latest worklog, "Max3D" no longer sounds like what we want- and fair do's. I'm not in favor of a game creation tool i'm in favor of a language and a 3D API I can rely on. Ogre gets updated frequently and is very stable.

What I would have liked to have seen in Blitz was C++ compatible types. Not having them is giving us one hell of a pain in the arse.

What Mark is trying to do by the looks of it, is give new users the power to create good looking games, easily, much like Blitz3D did. He could have done it like B3D, yes, but why not create something new? Point N click (if it even turns out like that- and if you read the worklog properly it doesn't sound like it) would get the 10-12 year olds into 3D and boy would they love it.
Parents would then be going out to buy it for their children, Mark get cash etc :). There's a reason for everything.

That's fine for 12 year old kids and Mark. Forgive me for being ignorant, but I dont think Marks existing customer base is comprised of 12 year olds, hence the resistance.

The problem Mark has is Blitz3D was bloody good, and if I can be presumptuous, I think he's struggling to best it and lacks the motivation to recreate it.

I'm also beginning to think that for me personally it's time I went the C++ route and got a proper 3D engine. It's beginning to look like there wont ever be a proper 3D BASIC again.

Hmmm i quite don't understand some of you.

Obviously it would have been nice if Max3D would be around already and it's dissapointing that it's not the case and when i read the worklog then i get the impression that it will take even longer now to get one but on the other side there isn't a single bad thing about an 3d game editor (at least the one i have in mind) if it's done well. I'm pretty sure that you can do both, go by code or by the editor, so i really don't see the problem. It's much of a benefit for most of the people and once you got used to it you won't give it away again. For instance it makes tweaking or arranging a scene so much easier. I would be happy if they do it right.

I don't. Not everyone wants to rely on third party 3d engines - they have a poor track record in many respects.


But no amount of point 'n' clicky visual editors can do this. It takes decent media create to good looking games, and it takes artistic talent and a sound knowledge of art software (2d and 3d) to create decent media. If anything, a higher level solution will increase the learning curve because it will force people to learn new editing interfaces as well as modelling tools and the BMAX language itself, because I'm pretty sure that Mark's proposed editors won't be capable enough to replace your favourite 2d/3d art creation tools. The only people who this is likely to benefit is the absolute beginner - and by this I mean the typical child who wants to make a game but knows nothing about how to go about doing so. For anyone with any knowledge and ability this approach could actually be an impediment.

Valid points... and for prople with knowledge, they shouldn't buy it. As is my choice :)

and how is a first party 3D engine going to be better than a 3rd party engine thats been in the works 5 years and is now stable and usable?

Luckily (for those that basically want Blitz3D Part II) Cobra3D is just around the corner and regarding BMax's future... It looks interesting. Time will tell...

Barney

You must be all much much smarter than me. I can't make head not tails from the vague description Mark gives in the first part of his worklog.
RAD tools? 'game editor'? In my past i've seen many very talented programmers come up with all kind of nice, brilliant, ideas, but when
they're as vague and big as Mark's explanation all alarm bells went of in my head.

So I'm with Terabit, 'cautious optimistic' and the proof is in the pudding.

Cool, that is good to know about what is going on at BRL.
Contrary to what AngelDaniel said, i like the idea of Max3D being code driven and not just a visual editor.
I really like BlitzMax and am quite happy with the way it is now and with the way it seems to go in hte future.

This is where I was at a few months ago. I've moved on to Unity and other tools. I've given up on waiting for a 3D module that, by all accounts, is still several years away.

I feel like I wasted my money on BlitzMax but that's the last money they'll ever see from me.

3rd party engines are not an acceptable answer when people were told in the beginning that an official module was coming.

I just popped back over this site for the hell of it and started reading this thread and now I remember why I generally don't bother anymore. Certain people are a cancer on these forums. The abusive attitude is just completely uncalled for and I don't know why BRL cows to them like they do. It makes no sense. Like many things they do.

"Hey, that guy abuses our customers and insults people on the forums..." "Great, let's make him a beta tester and kiss his butt!"

Incredible.

Anyway, I'm done with this whole scene and I'll see you all in the funny papers. I'll be reading from time to time, but I'll not be posting again.

Warren, I can see your point of view. But I don't feel like I wasted my money on any Blitz product. The only reason I haven't created a game yet is due to my own actions, not theirs. They've given us to the tools, but we have to be responsible for our own actions and not label BRL the scapegoat.

..I do agree with Barnabius...for basic lovers, updated to next gen stage( isnt it?), Cobra 3D sounds promising..

I think Mark's heading in the right direction.

Why has everyone jumped on the point-and-click aspect? It's clear that he's aiming for something code based, with point and click to stitch things together IF you want to use it. I think it could be a decent combo.

The downside is that Max has gone from (in my mind) being maybe within a year to probably years away with all the extra work will have to put in.

I really don't know why Mark doesn't post more often ;-)

Thanks for the info Mark. I hoping that the new IDE will have a bit more functionality too, or that you'll be able to add such functionality easily.

The 3D game maker tools set or whatever it is going to be sounds interesting but I'm still happy with 2D :-) However if I did go 3D in the end, I gotta say that I'd prefer an "official" module that one of the, I'm sure excellent, 3rd party ones and many people probably feel the same...

Improved docs will stop some moaners but doens't bother me. Why don't you outsource the work to free up your time? Same with the 3D editors...

Any sensible programmer waiting for the 3D module would in the meantime be writing their next/current game in something else and then seeing what the situation is like afterwards.

But my main question that I often ask and somehow always gets skimmed over is what are you going to use the 3D module for? What on earth could be so great, so amazing that you couldn't possibly work with something else in the meantime in 3D. (Ie Blitz3D) Noone ever goes into detail about why they want it. Is BlitzMax3D the ONLY answer? the solution to your dreams, the holy grail of programming languages, all of your faith and desires on a language that doesn't even exist yet?

When/if it comes out I can tell you now, it'll not be any easier to program than Blitz3D, maybe even slightly more complex due to BMax syntax being tougher than oldskool Blitz. And then you're also stuck with the same old problems that exist today, who's doing your 3D models/graphics, are you even gonna start and finish your game? Are you doing this for money or pleasure, 99% of this community are programmers and almost all group projects end before the project is done. Max3D probably won't even come with a full manual like BMax, how will you cope? Do you think you're up to the challenge?

So I'll ask again, what are you going to use BMax3D? Many of you may as well find a new hobby now and save yourself some time. Or at the very least cease moaning about something you'll not even be able to use.

I'm glad the IDE is getting an overhaul. I'm not sure what I think about the GUI, since I don't really care what it looks like on Linux or Mac. Programming IDEs tend to have some pretty slick interfaces, so if Mark comes up with something like Visual Studio, that would be pretty nice. However, I hope it doesn't look like it's not even a windows interface.

I like that orange menu selection highlighting and all the menu icons you get on some Delphi applications. I like small toolbar icons and alphabetized lists and a minimal interface.

I don't like the hotkeys in the current IDE. I often accidentally hit the wrong key when I am cutting and pasting, and it starts rebuilding modules! I want a debugger like PureBasic's where you can watch the variable values.

If you want some good interface design, see Nem's Tools. That guy has an eye for laying stuff out, and I have borrowed a few ideas from his apps.

Hmm i also bought BlitzMax because of the upcoming 3d module but even without it BlitzMax was worth it's money as i rediscovered doing 2D games and had quite some fun with it.

Yeah that one's a bummer!

I've never done that!

Now you've mentioned it, it'll probably happen all the time now. :/

I hate pressing CTRL+R instead of CTRL+H by mistake and then horribly right adjusting sections of my code which only seems to be fixable by rapid CTRL+Zs.

I write a lot of programs, many of them 3D. My projects are widely varied and usually have a fast turn around time and usually involve networking - hence I work in BASIC, specifically Blitz3D.

I would like to use Blitz Max more often because I also like to use the Mac, and i'd like my projects to work on both. I'm primarily a hobbyist, although various employers of mine have made big money / saved big money because of software I wrote that happened to be done in Blitz - but I dont care about that because I can always use other languages for work.

For my hobby I want something I can make all the stuff I do now in Blitz3D but with shaders, object instancing, and multiplatform support. I'll knock up more projects in a year than many programmers - and if others are dependant on them (my Sim Racing Authority software, my permissions thingamy and so on and so on) then they do always get finished.

If i'm doing it for fun or to learn a technique then maybe / maybe not - the fun is in playing with the challenge of the hard bits... I dont get that out of point and click. When a project of mine 'fails' it's because I solved all the problems and couldn't be bothered to do the easy bits. Whether I finish off a project or not is my concern.

I make a lot of media myself (much of it is assembled at vertice level in code hense the tools Mark is hinting at really absolutely do not interest me at all), or I ask my brother, or a friend. I have a large collection of 3d media and textures.

Have I missed anything?

CTRL+R is Build and Run...


Anyways...

woo! array concatenation! Gimmeeeee!

>This is Sparta? No, actually, this is not BS. You were not
>promised anything with Max3D other than a 3D engine, and
>guess what? You're getting it.

How do you know that?

>Max3D is still in development, you have not somehow been
>lied to or cheated

Except, one product was hyped, then it was changed, and now it appears that it'll be something else entirely. That basically means that the entire community has been mislead.

>you just need to calm down and stop
>being so grumpy-wumpy.

So instead of dealing with the issue, you attack the messenger. I am sorry if you don't like what I am saying, but it is still the truth.

>I didn't buy it for DX8.1,

Good for you, neither did I!

>and while it was
>apparently 'promised,' obviously Mark has said he was
>sorry for doing that.

No he didn't, the relevant worklog was just erased and that was it.

>I bought Blitz3D for what it offered at the time.

So did I, and no extra functionality was hyped at the time.

>I bought BlitzMax knowing it would not come with 3D or be,
>at the time, fully complete (specifically, I bought it
>during the beta period). I'm more or less happy with how
>it works, and I don't have many complaints over the
>language itself (some about BRL's modules, but I'm
>rewriting those, so no problems there).

I am not critical of the products that BRL have finished and actually sell.

>If you buy something without a guarantee and base it on
>good faith

http://web.archive.org/web/20050309231134/www.blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1

>>Just to put a few peoples minds at rest, Blitz3D will be
>>receiving a DX upgrade when DX9 comes out.

This was a promise, and not a question of faith.

>well, I'm sorry, but you need to snap out of
>the whole 'good human' thing and realize that the world is
>not all candy-apples and flowers. There are farts and
>fires, too, and they like to pretend to be flowers and
>candy-apples. Get my meaning?

Yes, you are saying something silly, which has absolutely nothing to do with my points of criticism.

>Considering Mark and co. are doing what they want to

They are playing games with their paying customers

>instead of listening to people like you, yeah,

And what exactly constitutes 'people like me'.
-Relevant criticism
-a working memory
-appreciation of being able to actually deliver a product.
-not willing to accept vapourware

>I'd say
>they have quite a bit of pride left.

I guess you have a different definition of pride than I do. Pride in ones word and ones work, ought to be important to people who work at BRL, but ofcourse, if your customers let you slide every time you disappoint them and yourself, I can understand how this situation evolved.

>Only by giving in to
>the inanity that is your ideal world

So trust is insignificant in the world? You might want to look up what inane means.

>would they have lost all pride. If you don't like what you >have, change it instead of complaining,

So I am only allowed to post if I offer an opinion that you agree with?

>otherwise you should just leave.

And if you don't agree, then I should leave.

You know what Noel. There's reason and selfrespect, and then there's lack thereof. In this thread you have managed to take every unreasonable and disrespectful to yourself position that you could, just in order to defend BRL from deserved and reasonable cricism. I've always been accused of being a FanBoy, but you take the cake!

>Yes, it was your mistake for making assumptions on what
>exactly Max3D would be. Nobody promised some specific,
>exact outcome to you.

It was hyped as a 3D engine for BMX, and deliverytime was expected to be around a year. I don't really mind that the schedule slipped, or that the whole BRL/idigicon thing delayed things a bit.

>That would be a good idea. It's rather foolish to purchase
>something and assume your glorious, golden chalice will
>appear later.

You are right. We should all assume that BRL is lying to us and that they have grown so incompetent that they can't actually deliver a product anymore... Now, please tell me if you would buy from a company with that reputation.

My problem with BRL, is that it seems that they are more focused on research/playing, than on delivering a product. They appear to be unable to commit to specs, can't keep their focus on the same project for very long and generally can't get it done.

Maybe B3D was too good. they've been so sucessful that they no longer need to produce in order to feed themselves. Their hunger is gone, and with it their motivation to finish their projects.

Andy

can we please close this thread? stop slagging Blitz research; dont like the products? dont use them!! dont like the support? dont use the forums!! Now, for the sake of higher beings, SHUT UP and make games, stop wasting time on this. Move on if you dont like it here. Ungrateful childrish brats.

It took a couple of years for B3D to be any good. The first two years the art pipeline was completely rubbish, and you couldn't even bake vertex colours let alone lightmap. The tools just weren't there to support the B3D format properly.

With a modern engine, things are much more complicated than back in blitz3D's day, so I can definately see why BRL might want to go the high level tools way.

I think what everyone was expecting was some kind of cross platform OpenGL engine rather than a windows exclusive DX9 one. And even if that was to be released it would probably be some considerable time before it could be used properly by artists, even if the geometry format was an extension of the original .B3D

I'm more partial to D3D renderer anyway, It tends to be faster on reasonably modern hardware, and there are far more tools that support HLSL for shader creation than GLSL or CG. And even then, shaders are still taking babysteps and are still hard to create yourself from scratch without a lot of knowledge and research.

Would be cool if BRL used one of the regular shader formats and had a good high level tool for artists to use in shader creation.

No matter how good the engine is, creating good shaders is often a major stumbling block for artists, even if they are reasonably easy to implement once created.

Hopefully someone will delete this topic entirely and let the children fight elsewhere.

> CTRL+R is Build and Run...

I'm using an older version of the IDE that doesn't have CTRL+cursor keys to switch between windows instead of fast scrolling in text.

I too am looking forward to an IDE overhaul.

TBH I am with gfk on this one, I too bought BlitzMax on the understanding there would be a 3d module released for it within a few months (taking into account I wanted a good few months after its release to buy it). Although I also bought it for its 'cross platform' compatibility it was the 3d demo(s) that mark posted that showed off different bits of Max3d that interested me.

Now it seems we have years more to wait this is getting a little annoying, I agree I will not buy the 'new' 3d module when it comes out as by then the other modules would have surpassed it or there will be another language out that will 'better' support the requirements of computers in one/two years time.

When I have the money I am going to get a good book on C++ and do what I should have done ages ago and return to my C/C++ roots.

It does annoy me that we have waited for so long without any news on what the hell is going on surely something wouldnt have gone amiss every month whats ten minutes of your time when it seems like Blitz Research has an idea then scraps it years later to take it into another direction I am wondering if Max3d wasnt just a pipe dream and it wasnt going to be released at all in those years and that it was never worked on till now.

Maybe now is the time that Blitz Research and mark take on more staff they dont seem to be handling everything that they have to do at all well, Blitz3d still has bugs there are other things that need fixing in BlitzMax and MaxGUI surely now is the time to get someone in and bring them upto speed to get the job done and help fix the problems that are there so that Mark can persue his ideas.

The whole thing looks unprofessional and to coin a term 'half-arsed', everything that is available atm is incomplete and unfinished. From a company that took great pride in saying all their products were not buggy this is quite a let down.

> When I have the money I am going to get a good
> book on C++ and do what I should have done
> ages ago and return to my C/C++ roots.

It sounds very inspirational saying that now but I did that at the end of 2004 by writing a game in C++ and DirectX8.0 (where basically I was forced too by University) and afterwards I couldn't wait to get back to Blitz.

With all this waiting going on, and coding away merrily it's sometimes very easy to forget how 'easy' it is to use Blitz products as compared to C++ and other languages whereby so many commands you take for granted are surprisingly not there!

I would certainly agree with you though that with so many things becoming unfinished, it's a lot of work for 1 (2) people.

I do agree that blitz is easy to learn but the thing that lets it down is its documentation and its update strategy and bug fixing, who here remembers the Blitz3d bug fiasco's before BlitzMax arrived (we could wait months or sometimes years for those fixes). Personally I dont want to be going back to those days whilst the max3d and new gui modules are created.

What nasty words do I need to write to shut this thread down? As I said, dont like Blitz, move on to Cobra, DB or C++ with DX. Stop complaining! no other product is available at the price that offers the features Blitz does. Mark is entitled to do what he wishes with the product portfolio. Let it go guys -- LET IT GO! Get over it. What is the average age here? 14?

I think the 'poor' documentation is good comared to trying to use the confusing .net/Visual studio IDE help.

> Personally I dont want to be going back to those
> days whilst the max3d and new gui modules are created.

You have to put everything into context I think, the cost of Blitz3D/Bmax is about the same as 2.5 computer games. And you certainly don't get any form of updates/support/free updates from those games. Certainly exceptionally cheap compared to other professional software, and 3~4 years down the line you still feel like it's your right to have more updates?

It's certainly a tough one. But I don't have any earnest plans to rush back into any of Microsoft's dev tools anytime soon. I'd still like to know what's wrong with Blitz3D. Just look at Naked War? Blitz3D never held that game back, can you tell (or care) it's on Direct X7 and a 5ish year old 3D programming language?

BlitzMax would do amazing if it has a decent set of examples for each of its commands, this would also make it much more appealing to beginners and blitz3d converts alike. Most of the stuff I learned about blitzmax was from reading the examples and information from the blitz wiki (a sadly missed resource), why should it be down to a third party to 'prop up' the language when it should come with everything people need to get started. You wouldnt by a game without any instructions or information in the game and no ideas on how to play it at all.

I agree that Blitz languages are cheap compared to Microsoft dev tools but there are loads of languages out that that are just as cheap and come with good documentation.

The issue is that all the other paying customers have just as much right to comment here as you do. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean that they're not entitled to their opinions or to share them, providing they're within the terms of service ( as most, at least, are. )

You may not agree, and I may not agree, but that just means that we either have to accept it, debate politely or go read another thread. The only person I've seen flouting the terms of service is you calling everyone you disagree with names. You might also bear in mind that GFK, Andy and Edz are three of the longest serving members of the Blitz community, have actually done a lot of coding with the languages and even if I don't share their concerns ( admittedly for a purely selfish reason of I never really intended to buy Max3D ) I do at least recognize that they're in as good a place to judge as anyone here.

I bought every single blitz Product and have used blitz since the amiga days, and am perfectly happy with the products, its feature-set vs. price, support etc. I dont think Mark and his small team deserve the rant they get. I for one -- was I him -- would not even bother to post worklogs -- all he get's in return is complaints by the masses primarily. Tell me what other product for the price gives you the features Blitz does?

That doesn't mean everybody else has to be nor does it mean they have to "SHUT UP!".
They're big enough to look after themselves.
... and if he doesn't he gets complaints 'by the masses primarily' so a no win situation really.

I agree. However, if you believe you were promised something it would be annoying if you don't get it regardless of the price/feature ratio.

We were never promised a 3D module for Max at a specific date; ever. I was so glad when the off-topic got shut down; wish this general discussion would be too. Now I have said my piece I will go back to what you all should -- write code

(shaking my head, walking away, spitting in disgust of the Mark & co treatment).

bye

Anyway, here and do a find for 'Out the Door' dated 2005-05-16 stating
. I'm sure there are other posts alluding to Max3D and availability dates BUT that's not the point.
*Some* people took that as a 'promise' and that's why they are annoyed. Whether correct or not they're entitled to express their opinion within the terms of service.

Visual Studio, by Microsoft, has a free edition...

The reason some people feel the need to complain is because of hope. We (and I include myself in this) would dearly love to have a BlitzMax version of Blitz3D that performs as well or better, has a few new features, and supports all the Max platforms. We've hoped for it, we've believed (rightly or wrongly) that we where going to get it.

2 years on and it looks like we wont have what we hoped for. Maybe Mark is right, maybe 'visual' tools are the way of the future. Personally I wont touch them with an extended barge pole. I like to get in amongst the geometry.

MiniB3D shows that, in the last two years, Mark 'could' have developed and released a 3D module for Max that at least completed B3D's feature set ... and you know for most of us, that would be enough.

What he's thinking of now, I dont really care about. Worse, it appears he's thinking of this as a possible direction - ie: it's not very far down the development path at all.

That's why some people, myself included, are expressing dissapointment. Hope is a human quality, and I wont excuse myself for being human.

In the worse case scenario i'll just carry on using Blitz3D until something modern turns up, but it's hardly a glowing endorsement of Max.

I only use Max now if I want something to work on the Mac. Out of choice I use B3D still... What does that say?

You will all buy Max3D, because you crave it like a heroin addict craves his next fix.

Doesn't give you "more right" to an opinion, any more than your high user id gives you less.

Because just like now, everyone demanded instant gratification. The idea was that it was better to have a BlitzMAX without documentation, than no BlitzMAX at all.

Deserve has nothing to do with it.

BRL are in a somewhat unfortunate position. Their marketing efforts (as they were) have resulted in a largely heterogeneous user base, with different wants and needs, and with no single segment large enough to support a sustained development cycle. Between a rock and a hard place, what do you do when push comes to shove? Mark chose to go with his gut.

Not even close. It's a vocal minority.

Believe it or not, I think turd will just about do it.

You forgot "that sucks".

Was that supposed to be a rhetorical question? :o>

BTW: If you think this thread is bad, check out the Fallout 3 threads over at the Bethesda forums. That's just crazy!

Of course if arrays were Types then you could extend them and add whatever functionality you wanted!

I'm noticing an obvious ignorance to the fact that nobody here knows how Mark's editor will work. We all read the same thing, right?

I'll wager that it is more like a node editor that makes it easier to do just about anything while staying out of the way...
(Nodes interpreted by the engine or your own code, leaving most of the work still in code but making it easy to create levels and the like once a basic framework is constructed).

Of course, I don't know either. (I do think that would be cool, however. It's the scheme I was eventually using for that editor I still haven't finished...).


This "everything must be 1st-party" attitude is ridiculous, by the way. With that logic, you should just hire Mark to build your game for you. Oh, and drop Windows while your at it. And drop Blitz products; they aren't made by God; better switch to assembly code :P

Don't get me wrong, I trust Mark's work more than someone who speaks Engrish and just joined the forum (*cough*Antony*cough*).
But if Mark's engine does not yet exist and my game idea does, and I know that I can get the very tidy source to the 3D engine of my choice quite easily if things go horribly wrong (which they will not), I don't see the point in moaning or in boycotting other people's work.
There also are many people here whose 3D engines I would trust just as well as I would trust Mark's...

I am surprised that some people seem to be unable to read and understand. I am very happy with B3D, and I am not critical of the products that BRL have released.

I have always been a Blitz Fanboy, but I have been very disapointed for a while about the several postponements of Max3D. With the new worklog, I just felt that Max3D morphed into yet another incarnation which will justify more years of waiting. And I just don't think it's ever going to materialize, because a year from now, we all know that BRL will want to go in a different direction altogether.

I'm just sad and disapointed and wondering why it is so dificult to finish that particular project.


Andy

I wouldn't call a visual editor a "new incarnation." It's more like a front-end, and looking at it optimistically that would mean the back-end is in a good enough state to safely start working on such things.

when mark is done the environment will look like this (www.viciousengine.com) which is GREAT!

Hi,

I understand the disappointment, but the bottom line is I didn't like where Max3D was going and would not have been happy releasing it.

So much of the stuff I've been working on lately is crying out for custom editors, and it's just something I can't ignore anymore.

The Blitz philosophy to date has been to leave editors/tools up to the users, but it's reached the point where such editors/tools are becoming as complex to build - often more so - than the renderer itself.

I'm not gonna attempt to justify this statement with use cases or anything as I suspect everyone's mind is already made up one way or the other.

Finally: Feel free to express yourselves here, but please play nicely. It's only natural that there will be disagreements etc, but quoting/attacking each other is just pointless.

what Mark said

I could hardly argue with this, seeing as I've been working on the editors for my game for about six months and there's still much, much more to do. However, the one thing that stands out most in those six months is that I desperately, desperately needed my own editors, because a general purpose solution wouldn't cut it. Are you not at all concerned that - even after you've developed all your tools and editors - people will be duplicating your effort writing their own tools and editors to specifically support the exact nature of their game?

Personally, I think that its fine for people to write their own stuff. I am writing my own 2D World Designer. Its a duplicate of something along the likes of Mappy. It will have its twists. Check my site out if you are interested in what its about. Everything so far about it is posted there - reasons and all.

I get where you are headed with this Gabriel, and I am merely providing my opinion; but I think Mark is attempting to give a tool that will help many out. Still, should you need your own thing, so be it. Thats the choice you can make.

Look at Visual Studio .NET, Mono, and #Develop... all target .NET IDE and building apps with the .NET framework. Microsoft sunk big money into developing their IDE, while others are out there duplicating that. I think its natural for people to make their own stuff.

Thanks for the post Gfk, I would have missed it otherwise.


Yeh, you go, Mark. Bite off more than you can chew! We'll see you again in 10 yrs ;]

Unless the BRL team grows, I don't see the new Max3D direction being viable anytime soon and gxLib seems to be the sorts of things MaxGUI was always supposed to be a departure from. Not that it seems like a bad thing. Options are good. Stability and extra cross platformness are always good things too. The new IDE I fail to see the point of, but I'm probably not thinking big enough. Then that would tie in with my thoughts on viability, you see. =]


Angel Daniel, you probably havn't played around with the tool Mark mentioned Mac users should check out. I don't have a Mac, but I'm assuming it's something relatively similar in concept to the LEGO robot programming suite. Obviously, when it all comes down to it, it HAS to be code-based. But that code-based interface can be removed from user view and replaced with something 'friendlier'. This is what game creator programs do... but those packages are a sort of extreme, in that the user is left with little customisation abilities. The best way forward is to find the compromise between the two worlds...

The LEGO robot programmer suite is interesting in that it looks uber-unpowerful. At its most basic level, you drag around a bunch of icons, representing different robot actions and join them up with a wire. The robot follows those instructions along the wire from start to finish. Advancing on from that level, you can see that each icon is actually a collection of robot asm instructions - you have the ability to alter these and create your own icon sets with your customised routines. Of course, the next level down is a full on asm level text editor.

Everyone has heard that for this industry to survive, tools are going to have to become a lot better. Max goes a long way in that the code is almost as simple as it can be while still providing almost complete control. The next step up can go in a couple of directions - either an IDE with an interfaced toolset, like AMOS, Torque, DBPro, etc, or to further simplify the visual element of the code itself.

The former has been done to death. That would constitute more reinventing of wheels (though undoubtedly Mark could pull it off better than Torque/DBPro, with the strength of the underlying language being a huge bonus). I'd like to know what that tool is Mark referred to, but have no Mac. Will have to bug a mate of mine to show me. If it's remotely like what I'm thinking, Mark is onto something very interesting.


Ha! Every worklog Mark posts these days screams to me 'wait another year' - at least. Too many changes and restarts. It's what I do - and how much good stuff have I programmed? ;]

..

Max needs another Blitz Support Suite.


All of those people were flaming morons.


Yes he did. You might not have caught it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


If his editors are open sourced like the rest of Max, building on what you need is likely to be quicker than building from scratch.

I wonder if the new Max3D will also come with a shader editor. As i've learnt it most of the people don't write their own ones. They use the existing ones or hope that others do it for them...

I would hire more staff to make the development time more shorter and easier to manage

All I wanted was a DX engine like blitz3d in blitzmax which also worked fine on macs.

No bells or whistles, just really fast easy to use cross platform stuff with the maximum compatibility and speed.

It should make you feel like this... mod :O)

What it sounds like is that we will be getting max 3d (or some form of 3d engine), and then editors to boot. Its not like the 3d part that will run said game engine is going to be hard coded into an editor. So whats the big deal?

I think people are just jumping to conclusions that this decision is a bad one without actually thinking about what is involved. It makes perfect sense for blitz research to try and release a "hot product" rather then JUST releasing a language to enable other developers to release "hot products".

The way I see it is this:
We will have editors to create 3d worlds that interact with a solid marksibly esque game engine. It was already suggested stuff like sound on surfaces.

Imagine for a second you want to create your level. You want it so that grass makes a smoosh sound underneath foot and gravel makes a crunch sound. Now if you were creating this from scratch would involve some tedious pretty much standard surface picking and sound selection. Doesn't it make more sense to have something handle the surface picking, sound selecting and channel mixing? On-top of that, doesn't it make more sense to have an editor ready to roll that lets you apply a sound to said surface?

Naturally its nice to be able to go in and hard code that stuff from scratch. Given blitzmax's (and I assume this is being built on-top of blitzmax) nature, I really doubt there would not be the possibility to get in and rewrite your own "game engine" using the 3d implementation used.

So to cap that point off, I think you just need to think realistically here and judge your opinion on previous blitz products (all of which have followed a very similar pattern of development). Don't just think its the end of the world because max3d is not coming in its original module based form. There are other modules for that.

With regards to the gui. I am interested to see it. More details would be nice. Is it using GL or native os speciffic drawing commands? What extent can the skins customize too. Is it set in stone how gadgets interact and render or can they be modified / coded in blitzmax.

Lastly. It would be nice to hear about some of the planned features for the text ide. Currently it looks pretty much just like a remake of the current design. Which while practical, is surely a missed opportunity?

That is my only concern, about the features of the IDE. So on that note here are some helpful suggestions.
-- search and replace in selection block

-- better project management

-- open document tab groups (custom gadget). Allow you to group groups of open documents i na single tab. Currently I have to have open anywhere from 5 - 20 files on a speciffic project. Clicking left and right on the tab thing is a pain in the....!!!

-- custom plugins. Could be done with lua, commandline binaries, blitzmax code?

The ability for plugins to be called upon various application events would be brilliant. OnLoadDocument, OnSaveDocument, OnExecute, OnKeyPress.. etc. Personally I would use OnExecute to do some nifty stuff.

Plugins could also be used to extend the editor, and modularize its feature set. Instead of teh search and replace being built in, it could be a plugin. Somone could write a project line counter. The framework assistant could be built into the editor. And so on!

-- dock-able / hide-able windows. I hate having to limit my coding space with the debugger!

I am sure I could think of a lot more suggestions, but I thought instead of being negative about the work log, I would offer some positive feedback and suggestions.

Whilst I dont regret purchasing the tools that I have I am disapointed at the prospect that the promised potential of Blitz Max will never be realised in a form that i'll be remotely interested in.

BlitzMax appears, for want of a better annalogy, to be going down the Truespace route. So why not use Truespace? I chose Blitz because I dont want to go down the game maker route.

I'm a programmer, therefore Blitz appeals to me. If I wasn't a programmer I would never have even looked at a Blitz product.

I'm gutted. Utterly gutted, that I thought there was going to be a programming language coming and instead there's a toy for toddlers on the way.

I dont use the collision system in Blitz3D, I use linepick and build my own collision system thats optimised around my own visual occlusion system. I'm mentioning this, to highlight just how an editor based system could never be remotely interesting to me. Even if it lets me put sound effects on surfaces, something i've been doing for years already with Blitz3D. Oh woop.

However if Mark feels that it is better for Blitz or for him to chase a new market of customers then good luck to him. As supplier/customer we'll go our seperate ways and I have no hard feelings. I'm just disapointed and frustrated at what could have been a brilliant tool for me turn into a toy for kiddies, but if Mark wants to abandon this user base in pursuit of a new one then i'm guessing there is good reason for that. Maybe we dont pull in enough money for him? Maybe there is not enough of us.

I doubt whether BlitzToddler3D will muscle much of a market share against it's new competition - but that's Mark's problem not mine and i'll leave him to it.

'I'm gutted. Utterly gutted,...and instead there's a toy for toddlers on the way.'


Oh for god's sake (rolls eyes)...

I think people who moan about an editor should write their own lines routine or blittercode for filling polys and go with this. And don't ever dare to use libs like exec or graphics! ;O)

And yet Mark himself said that the reason for having the editors was because the engine he was envisioning wasn't going to integrate properly with other tools, that he couldn't extract the data his engine needed..

Before starting firing on me please remember that those are only my opinion. I'm a happy Blitz3d and BlitzMax (+MaxGUI) user - I'm not complainig about nothing in the language itself (well - apart the docs) or the 'lacking' of the 3d module.
I just want more informations.



Ehm, well, just for curiosity - what's this 'stuff' ?
Mark's worlkog is 'cryptic', sometimes he offers details about the engine itself (animation+physic) then the next time nothing regarding the engine itself...I'm very happy with ANY news but sometime I would not have to 'speculate/dream' of obscure features.



This could be right. But how you can satisfy ALL the features requested by customers? Someone will be happy with the basic option, someone would have better image-edit support and so on...it's a minefield (in my opinion).
Moreover (at least for me) a part of 'enjoy' in programming is create the editor itself.

Just a note: BRL have released the MaxGUI module, but there is NONE form designer with it. To be coeherent with the 'new direction' also MaxGUI should have a form designer, doesn't it?
(No - I'm not interested in a form designer - is just to note the fact!).

I - really - do not understand what is (or will be) the 'new direction': if a 3d 'renderer'+editors (3d editor to create mesh and animation? or only a world editor? - material (shader) or something other I can't imagine.

If you have a more 'focused' idea about this new way I would appreciate to read it.

PS: BRL of course is free to do what they want. A little critic is the lack (or this appears to me) of exact goals: somewhere in this forum there is a thread about 'ARM support'. Well - I don't know if this is directly managed by BRL or Skid, but I believe a 'too wide front war' is not a good strategy in the long period.

Stop! Thank you.

Perhaps it would be good if Mark clarified more on the new direction since most of us are consfused how it will work.

Are we talking about Quest3D, Virtools kind of tools that have integrated modeling/texturing/shading editors so you dont have to build architecture stuff in tools like 3D Studio Max, etc and where you still get to code in BlitzMax with Max3D where every feature that Max3D can offer will work 100% since we have option to use Editors/Tools that are made to work with Max3D...

Also for tools like virtools you built your stuff in external modellers like 3dsmax. The editor in virtools helps you to arrange your scene, manage your assets, develope your code and so on but it's not made for modelling.

The only tool i know which really does a good content creation (extrusions) inside, is werkkzeug from farbrausch. And even there you can import models from softimage.

>Also for tools like virtools you built your stuff in external modellers like 3dsmax. The editor in virtools helps you to arrange your scene, manage your assets, develope your code and so on but it's not made for modelling.

Well that is why I said: kind of tools that have integrated modeling/texturing/shading editors so you dont have to build all of the stuff in external tools, etc

You will ofcourse have to build characters, and high detail meshes, animation in external tools, and perhaps process them thru Marks tools

It also says in the same paragraph that he was referring to portal information. It makes sense that trying to "extract" geomtry/surface/portal/blah/blah/blah information from external file formats is going to be much harder then reading from a known source. Like the b3d format. When you know and plan exactly what the format can do, it offers a greater potential for users of said format.

You are not relying on someone else to provide the flexibility in the format that your language can read, you are instead creating the format based around what you want your language to achieve.

Its the old what came first the chicken or the egg. Look how successful Grey Aliens framework is. Most casual game designers want the bum work taken away, and the ability to design left remaining. If this new "product" is based on-top of the blitzmax language then its safe to say (based on previous examples) that this will use a base set of modules and components that can be tweaked and modified.

Naturally its not as clear cut as a 3d module in a box, so I agree with the sentiment of clarification. it would be good if the thing was explained a bit more.

BlitzMax code, just like everything else. Makes no sense having a plugin system for an IDE for a proprietary language that uses a different langauge =]


To think that's what Mark has planned is childish in its own right.

I'm so happy I've bought Max just for it is: A relatively simple OOP language, with good 2d support. This means that I am not 'hurt' by this announcement in any way.
Buying Max in advance for Max3D is like buying a new car, with three wheels, expecting the car manufacturer to send you a 4th wheel in the next year or so. It's just not gonna happen the way you plan it, not for lack of good will from Mark though. At least he is willing to accept the fact that he made a poo-poo and is getting on with something else. But this time, he should make no promises and just wow us with something cool.

How the heck can an editor made with the originator's knowledge and foresight that's specially tailored to suit Max3D be seen as a drawback? I bet everybody will use it when it arrives - whatever shape or form it will take there has to be a sound reason for it.

Forget who said it above, but for a helpful editor to start being considered then the engine code must be fairly advanced. I bet this is not going to be such a bad thing in the long run.

Think of the accumulated man hours it could save in all of our projects - makes excellent business sense and will probably sell Max3D by the cyber truck-load.

> How the heck can an editor made with the originator's knowledge and foresight that's specially tailored to suit Max3D be seen as a drawback?

In itself, not at all. But it takes time away from a 3D commandset. Also, considering Maplet, I really don't think editor tools are Mark's strongpoint. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

You obviously havent tried exporting rigged characters and vehicles to Torque :)

What we all really want is some kind of idol that we can put up on a pedestal and worship. That idol would give us everything we want and would fulfill our every wish. Mark is supposedly that idol in the eyes of many people regardless of whether he wants to be or not, and it seems more likely not, at least not to a large degree. And because of the expectation that he must fulfill his end of the idolization that WE are deciding is happening, which are unmet due to his non-participation in our fantasies, leads to all this anger and disappointment and blame. And then it seems like it's his fault for not matching up to the idol we want him to be. Heaven forbid he might take some radically unexpected direction that we don't agree with. How dare he? The real question should be, how dare WE.

Wow, Daniel is like an English writing ninja!

..I have no Idols...Mark took my money I took copy of B3D..clear cut..no idols..

I think it's good idea to integrate BlitzMax - powerful, convenient and easy for newbies programming language with content creation tools and engines. When placing and fitting it all together, it's possible to make whole structure and all of the components (including BlitzMax itself) very flexible and universal. Combining similar components into one, adding new possibilities to existed ones and building a structure of game content elements is in result give stable, flexible and convenient framework to make games, especially it will be handy for novices, as they might not need any other tools to make game that will satisfy their ambitions. Also very good thing in structure is wide range of tweaks that can be used to do various things, that haven't been planned at first. And as this structure will be quite unique, there's editors and utilities are necessary to complete the pack. Though, it's will be also great to export / import data from other progs such as 3dsmax.

That's why I'm building my own 2d-engine with tiles, sprites, collision, GUI, behavior modules, etc... from zero - it needs a new structure to handle and tie all this media together and no other editor, don't matter how wide its abilities can be, can satisfy all (even big part of) the needs of this structure. Of course, there are plenty of excellent bitmap/sound editors already developed, so I don't bother myself to make bitmap/sound editor. But game need much more tools to make its making convenient, so I started this project.

For myself I don't need 3D module at this moment, I buyed BlitzMax for 2D and pretty satisfied with this purchase (even if it'll not be developed further).

So, good luck to you Mark, what you have done already reveals that you are very smart and I have no doubt you'll succeed in this hard way.

And for some people it's possible to chew out the piece they visually can't chew - for sure ;)

P. S. If next BM core update will contain operators overloading - it will be great.

I think the path of the thread has made me sound bitter or something, and in the true spirit of the forums i've come across as being on a 'side' that I dont really consider myself part of.

Actually that's not the case. I am happy with Blitz Max, I never bought it for a 3D engine that it doesnt have.

I just remain unconvinced the direction Mark is taking will appeal to me.

Wow this discussion is still going on!

> I think the path of the thread has made
> me sound bitter or something

I noticed you're quite bitter about your broadband rules too. Chill out a bit, relax, be happy :) Have a banana!

It's not what I signed up for. Neither is the television service that Virgin provide... It's very different to the BMax3D situation.

I just want to say thanks to Mark for posting and I hope that Mark can post a bit more often. Posting every 2-3 months won't take too much time up and will quell some of the debate on where Max3D/Game Maker is actually going and that will stop the people who do like where it is going from moaning because they worry it's not what they think it will be. The people that don't like where it is going would just be even more unhappy once it gets released if they had no idea it was going to be something other than what they hoped and had no warning at all.

Now to my opinion about the content of the announcement. I’m disappointed that what I thought from past screen shots and my own estimations of how long things would take that we aren’t going to see Max3D this year and indeed it may be very different than what I thought and hoped we would get. This thing will still turn out okay so long as it is still a programming language, I’d be surprised if it wasn’t because BlitzMAX was more complicated than B3D and to the turn around direction wise and do some kind of poor click and drag game maker seems just plain weird. My interpretation of the whole Game Maker thing was that it would be a 3D module like we expected but it also incorporated a selection of other programs which edit things such as models etc to form an overall Game Maker package. My biggest worry that to do so, and to do so cross platform, will take so many man hours that unless Mark hires more help we won’t see anything until 2009 at the earliest.

I couldn't care less what Mark does with his Game Maker. I have no interest in such things, but I hope that he enjoys developing it.

I foresee many migrations away from Blitz products in the future.

Game Maker??? Please don't call it that...bad DB correlation going on there. I feel nauseous. BRB...

@JustLuke
To which other products?

Well, for example, Cobra looks like it might evolve into a decent alternative for people who are basically looking for "an updated Blitz3d, with a few more bells and whistles", but only time will tell.

win only...

I don't think think that the majority of hobbyists care about Linux or MacOS support.

I do...*writing this on my mac*

Well you can't please all of the people all of the time, right?

Nope...that's why i also use Unity...

I'm on Mac only nowadays.. And I plan to be for quite some time.. :)

Hi! I stepped into the OSX world almost two years ago with my Mini. Now if they only would offer a Mac which is configureable or comes with a decent gfx card out of the box in the low/mid range area.

I like Macs, really I do, and I like OSX too - next to Vista it is my favourite OS.

But most of all I admire Apple's marketing ability; they somehow manage to convince people that buying overpriced and undersupported computers makes sense. They achieve this this by targeting their products at non-savy computer users - the type who accept Apple's hype, and the myths that surround their products, and don't ask too many awkward questions about either.

Yep i agree and OSX isn't perfect too but the bottomline for me is that my Mini is super silent and i just experience much less hassle beeing on OSX than under XP or Vista. Now if they release Leopard with a new CPU and a decent gfx card in a Mini/Cube like system, i don't care if i pay some bugs more as i simply can't get such a system for windows this easily.

Speak for yourself. I was a PC user for 15 odd years, 12 of which as a software engineer, before switching to a Mac two years ago.

I've not regretted that decision for a moment. There's nothing wrong with PCs / Windows, but for me the Mac has been like a breath of fresh air and I don't intend of giving that up any time soon.

I'm a pretty big fan of OSX too ;) But I much prefer to develop under windows at the moment...

The lack of the Deliplayer could be a reason... ;O)

Amen. If they had a Mac Mini with a decent videocard, I'd have bought one long ago.

I'm in that group where for the past 13 years as a Windows developer and a *hard core* PC user, I switched to the MacBook Pro in February 2007. Like everyone else states, its been a blast. I do all my personal development in it. Sure I still have Linux and XP machines, but they seem to stay off these days. My interests in Mac changed completely from when I used to think it was a rather shotty system at best. Its simple and easy to use. I find its one of those "at home" environments where you can easily figure out what you need to do to get the job done.

I also agree its in need of improvement, but I enjoy using it - daily. It needs things like decent Dev Tools (XCode is nice, but VS.NET IDE is much easier to follow / understand), a good API for game dev, etc. All of these things btw Apple is currently undertaking.

Anyway, I think its about what you want to do. An OS shouldn't limit your ability to do what you want. It should be there to do the basic job of operating the system and allowing the user to use it. I find the Mac OS to provide this ability the cleanest, imho.

Little OT: where can I find more information about 'gxLIB'. I searched in google but I have found only php-classes, trojan information and so on...really I'm blind at this time!

gxLIB is something Mark is making on his own. If I read the worklog correctly

Gosh! Ok - I missed that part!!! sorry

[edited]
http://www.blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1043
I just see the worklog posted on 2002-08-29


5 (five!) years ago? It's the same thing or is something completely differnet?

I like the Mac, provided it has a PC keyboard and mouse plugged in. I hate developing on it though (too many permissions problems and i'm not as familiar with the CLI yet) - but I still want to publish on it.

Having recently watched the videos of the Crysis game engine and editors, I think Mark should strive for something along the same line. Along those lines, I think MMF from Clickteam is a great ide/interface model for doing 2D stuff. If Mark took on that paradigm and went 2d/3d with model,level and shader editors and compiled code coming out the back end (all documented of course) then I would happily lay down a couple of hundred dollars.

Mark really needs to take the "Content sells" approach to revenue. Releasing a great tool gets you in the door. Offering content, tools and such keep em coming back.
Love em or hate em, TGC has a pretty successful business model.

Allan

You've hit the nail on the head. I was thinking of going Mac (again) but this put me off. Plus Macs really are over-priced for what are to all intents and purpose PCs. Whish they would release OSX for the PC...

I really don't care about BMax3D, what direction it is going in or when it is coming out because I'm not interested in 3D anymore, I used to be but not now. If did I want to develop a 3D game I would use something else and forget about BMax3D. I would probably use B3D as it is pretty stable.

Anyway, all I'm interested in at the moment is BMax for developing cross-platform apps so I'm glad to hear Mark is reworking the BMax IDE as that plus the confusing docs (compared to the B3D docs) put me off buying it a few months ago. If the IDE turns out better than the existing one, then I'll probably buy BMax then.

Mark,
I applaud your decision. Having the courage to do something that is a departure from what you are accustomed to is hard. Your track record has been excellent. You can sign me up for 1 copy of Max3D (or whatever it will be called), right now!

How does an as yet undetermined editor come to be called a 'game-maker?'...and where did this 'point and click' idea come from? From what I've read it's not going to be a rigid portal into Max3d that we're all going to be forced through.

There are obviously problem/ball-ache areas that have been identified for developers and as such are going to be addressed before we get our hands on the engine.

Being even a tiny bit visionary it seems is an utterly thankless task.

Aside from the extra development time I really cannot see even a teeny weeny problem for anybody.

150th Post! Who's the daddy!

Your daddy?

This will be the longest thread in BRL history. Wey-hey...

I think that would be any of the multipart threads, like those ODE and Tokamak ones.

hmm
a 3d api as b3d has is enough for me but i will wait .
And yes i use bmax for fun and to make 3d games .

and mark please safe your source from the editors remember me on the maplet source desaster ....

mfg

http://www.blade3d.com/

Is/will it be something like this?

Serioulsy. I can understand the limit to have a 3d engine with full of features: infact, let's imagine if you want to apply a physic simulation to a scheleton of a player...or you can do this with an external editor (but every single editor Milkshape, 3dMax, Lightware and so on will have their own format/features) or it is a mess. I can't imagine to detect each bones recursevely to apply mass/gravity/limit and so on...

Well...at this point I'm getting back - and time permitting - I will try to complete my games (only 2d at the moment and only in BlitzMax!).

PS: I don't believe that the 'importance' of a thread is measured by its lenght; I think that knowing what BRL want to do is important even if there were 10 threads or 1000. I've red all the message and I don't found any offensive content (to Mark, to BRL products, to other users). Of course there are critics but I think this is normal and a sign of politeness.

What I really miss in this log is: "I plan to make BM a 2006 product. As all current processors are dual core and future ones are multicore, I have to implement threading and a thread safe GC in the near future and surely plan to do so"

Indeed. I rather have evolution than revolution.

On these forums, the best you can hope for is both. There's always revolution in the air ;)

Hmmm.. not sure what the mess here is about...

Everyone sees the terms "game maker", and suddenly everyone goes a little ballistic.

If I'm interpretting his work log correctly, what Mark is doing actually makes quite a bit of sense, and in a lot of ways would be a whole lot less work to accomplish a whole lot more.

Rather than competing directly against all of the other 3D API's around, it sounds as though he's leveraging some sort of provider model to create a standardized interface (interface in the object oriented sense) to BlitzMax.

This allows the 3D engine to be an implementation detail. Wrappers just need to be written for the various 3D api's that implement this common interface (this is the real challenge).

This means that you can swap out Ogre for miniB3d for whatever else you want. And if one engine outperforms on one platform better than the other, it's as trivial as swapping it out.

The applications (i.e. his "game maker" tools or any games that people may write) do not reference the engines directly, but the common interface, which hides the engine currently being used.

Again, assuming I'm correct, it's a very sound gang-of-four strategy pattern. And if anything, is decidedly LESS ambitious in terms of how difficult it would be to code. He just needs to identify the key important things and include them in the interface contract.

Well you have to consider the source. Think many people here have ever used a CASE tool? Or do you think they're more along the lines of Gamemaker or FPS Creator mentality?

Ah, is that what it is?

I thought someone had guffed.

That was me, sorry! ;)

Dabz

Hello.

Larn.

Goodbye.

:o)

Even if Marks "Engine" was in the same vien as FPSC, would that be a bad thing?
It would mean that we had a FPSC that worked.

(And I like FPSC, the only problem with it, is that it doesnt work, and the scripting is realy really bad)

>> I like the Mac, provided it has a PC keyboard and mouse plugged in. I hate developing on it though (too many permissions problems and i'm not as familiar with the CLI yet) - but I still want to publish on it.

Banshee, if you "enjoy" permission problems so much, you really should switch all your development to Vista then... ;-))))

>> What I really miss in this log is: "I plan to make BM a 2006 product. As all current processors are dual core and future ones are multicore, I have to implement threading and a thread safe GC in the near future and surely plan to do so"


Yep. And while we're at it, more widgets for MaxGUI and something like ADO.NET or at least a built-in SQLite support would be nice. But that would also push BlitzMax out of its "game language" corner...

You mean like Brucey's ODBC module?

I dont regret getting BlitzMax (aside from the MaxGUI module). However, I do feel that, as a 3D system wont be availiable for quite a while, I need to move elsewhere - and Unity (unfortunately as I'll have to get used to Javascript), will be it.

I had tried C4, but it only seems suitable for masochists...

Heh. I just tried to defect to TrueVision3D 6.5 + VB.Net. After a few solid days of hardcore programming, I realised it did not agree with me for multiple reasons. So it’s back to BlitzMax + MiniB3d for me, whatever my performance issues. I’ll probably try the Leadwerks BlitzMax module if it’s ever released…

I do look forward to seeing what Mark comes up with, but that’s a long way off by all indications…

Yeah. That's a good point.


Ok... let me get this straight. C4 is an exercise in masochism, yet Javascript isn't? :)

I guess to be fair, I think Unity also has bindings to Mono/.Net if you chose to go that way (which I'd highly recommend if it's an option).

I dont really want to learn Javascript, but at the moment there is little choice... :)

The whole layout of C4 is pretty poor (and the editor is pretty slow too). And there are a couple of nasty OS X problems too (with the keyboard detection), that haven't been fixed...

I think, that Mark dont have enought power to do 3D engine. And it will never relise.

You're not the first to try, but, dude, you gotta know that insulting his pride ain't gonna work. He's far too laid back for that.

I think you're forgetting Blitz3D and his ability to write numerous stable / useful compiled programming languages.

Don't know why I'm chiming in to this madness again, though.

I talking about DX10 engine =)
I dont know why Mark have problem with this engine, cuz he create B3D.

First!

JohnK, the problem is he's been busy working on BMax and hasn't had time to finish BMax3D, plus BMax3D is more complicated than B3D.

@markcw: SoundPainter is interesting!! I will very pleased to see how it works (internally!)

On the ADO.net joke: Thats not really funny.

The fact that BM just crashes if you use callbacks is a bad joke in 2006.

That it does not support simple threading, although it only runs on multi threaded OS (OSX 10.3, Linux 2.XX, Windows 98+) and is not thread save although clearly advertising that you can link it to C++ where at least callbacks are a common mechanisms.

I'm not asking for C# / Java like implementation!
Even PB level and a thread safe GC would improve it quite far and remove 80% of its problems.
Especially the DLL support is totally useless until those issues are resolved as it totally crashes when you try to use it really as a DLL.

www.blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1043

Other interesting news! (reflections!)

Wow, cool another worklog!

Sadly only for win...

At the risk of reopening old wounds and starting new arguments, it is disappointing to so often see the language developing almost solely in the direction of the author rather than the direction of the users. I do appreciate that it's Mark's project and everything, and he's perfectly free to do whatever he wants with the language, and it's not even as though reflection wouldn't be cool, but when so many people have asked for much more basic ( and frankly, what appear to me to be more important and widely used things ) like access modifiers, properties, operator overloads, etc, it's really disappointing to see those being brushed aside in favour of something I can't see more than a handful of people ever using.

And that's coming from someone who is one of the handful that might use it.

I didn't really understand what reflections are for or why you'd use them? Anyone care to explain?

Well, this wikipedia page goes into a fair bit of detail : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_(computer_science)

I think it's going to be useful - I use it in Java quite a lot. Assuming it takes on enough of what it is to have proper "reflection"...

But as Gabriel says, enhancing the basic capabilities of the language would be better for a bigger audience.

Still, I love BlitzMax, and if it wasn't for the Mac / Linux versions of it, I wouldn't be sitting here churning out the one or two Modules that I've thrown together since I bought it. In fact, if it was Windows only, I wouldn't have touched it.

It may well be presented as a "Games Programming Language", but I get much more out of it doing everything that isn't game-centric. (I suppose, to the benefit of those who find the odd module useful in their game)

I'm having way too much fun filling in all the gaps around the outside of its "core" functionality ;-)

Woah, Mark is posting even more worklog entries!
This is unusual... perhaps he is actually not Mark, but a robot posing as him?

This reflection stuff sounds like it will help me a lot, so good luck :)
The "Metadata" stuff sounds awesome as well. I can't decide where I would use it, but it's just too cool not to use, so I must find a way. It seems ideal for an easy way to create pleasant game data saving, where you can control what gets saved / restored by a simple keyword. If I'm on the right track, that's excellent!

I hope this comes with a docs update...


I notice that the window title in the IDE screenshot says "Quark 1.0", which is not the document being edited. Is that the doing of the new projects stuff? (And is there a fancy version management thing in there, or is that just the project's name?)

By the way, if Mark is reading this... I like having these smaller, less enormous adjustments to the language. I'd love to see this sort of stuff more often, since their effects can be felt by all! (And much more quickly than with a big, adventurous task such as a 3D module).

Picklesworth, feel free to start a new thread.