Getting my money back
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Getting my money back
So... haven't touched Blitzmax for ages. Bought it when it was born (after having lots of fun with the original blitz); didn't use it much because of 'having no time' problems and the lack of a manual.
Now it is 2007, I picked up BlitzMax again.. still no manual. I know, you probably all think that I am one of those guys who comes asking about this manual again. Well, you are right... but then again: it is kinda strange isn't it? Yes, I can search these forums, but I hate searching for ages about a specific topic or command, it is too much time consuming.
So, are you selling bmax, then?
Blitzmax has its own documentation.
If they did a printed manual (which I assume is what you're on about), then Blitzmax gets updated so often that it'd be out of date before it was even off the press.
I don't consider you've got a valid reason for a refund. You've had it ages, you've barely used it (your own choice), and there's no manual (which BRL has never said they'll print anyway).
But its up to them. Why didn't you just e-mail BRL instead of coming here and stamping your feet about the lack of a manual?
If you can't get to grips with it as it stands - sorry but you haven't tried hard enough.
Just ordered it!
Source.
I picked up BlitzMax again.. still no manual. I know, you probably all think that I am one of those guys who comes asking about this manual again. Well, you are right... but then again: it is kinda strange isn't it? Yes, I can search these forums, but I hate searching for ages about a specific topic or command, it is too much time consuming.
Well... personally I think you're one of those guys who, whatever you've got, is never quite good enough for you.
> haven't touched Blitzmax for ages.
I think by now your guarantee would have expired, even if there was one.
> but I hate searching for ages about a specific
> topic or command, it is too much time consuming.
Funny that, but there's a manual for looking up commands in the IDE. Admittedly it is a little hard to find at first compared to the old Blitz, but if you can't even find that what chance have you got of programming?
Oh, me wants a refund? No chance.
I thought a 90 day guarantee was generous, but damn, 18 months?
Sometimes I wonder what people expect from a USD 80 product.
Even those products do not come with a printed manual:
MS Vista Ultimate Editon Retail, for USD 550
MS Office 2007 - starting somewhere at 400 USD?
Adobe Photoshop Extended, USD 999 (just bought it online)
Adobe Flash Professional
MS SQL Server
MS Visual Studio
MS Windows Server
Apple Final Cut Studio
Apple Logic Express
Actually, there are not many software products left that still come with a printed manual.
BlitzMax has an online reference manual and sample applications. That's not much, agreed, but it's more than nothing and when you only pay 80 bucks for a product, honestly, what can you expect?
Blitz max has terrible documentation, and it is definately an oversight. It's a bit easier to pick up coming from a Blitz3D background but whats there really isn't much use to a newbie coder that barely knows what a variable, function, etc are.
The samples that come with Bmax jump in from the deep end and really only cater for showing off the advanced features that have come about since Blitz3D.
Having said that, poor documentation is a common problem with cheap game dev tools since no one likes doing it and can really be bothered. Doesn't make it right, and I often wonder how many people gave it a try and just gave up because of it.
It's not that terrible. Every command is listed many with examples. Some are Crytic and the odd one was inaccurate. But to make up for it we have a great forum and a wiki and of course your own intelligence which can be used to work stuff out. I've made a framework + demo game, 2 commercial games and I'm on my third - all without a manual.
bmax's various complexities have put me off so far, TBH - and I'm not a noob.
Blitzmax is evil.
It's dastardly.
And it will leave you in madness.
But within this lunacy you also will feel enlightened and stronger, sooo much stronger than ever before.
How long, you ask?
This, depends on...you.
From the dark chapters of Sir Brujo Loco
*now fire up a sid player*
whispering in the distance BMax's various complexities put me off at first too funnily enough back when it was in beta testing stage. But now I think 'what complexities?'. It seems really simple to use now. As with most things, it's a case of just putting in the hours to familiarise yourself with everything.
The n00b'ish commands are explained well (print, for-next etc.), it gets skinny when it comes to advanced stuff, or even exceptional cases of normal commands. For ex: slicing 2d-arrays isn't explained, naturally this is because it can't, but that's something the manual doesn't mention. Sockets? What are they? Anywhere related to my socks by any chance? Considering the eventhook threads on this forum, some while ago, it seems that they're not explained well either.
Another thing lacking is consistency in style. Also lacking are explanations of solutions based on polling as well as events.. usually it's polling all the way.
What there also needs to be are multiple ways to do the same thing. I remember some 'Hello World' example in the B+ manual showing how to do a Hello World in multiple ways. That's exactly what's needed for the rest of the commands as well.
In addition a few guidelines to generic programming solutions could be included, design-patterns 'n stuff.
While I can cope with -for me- most of the essential stuff, I do agree that the manual is truly far from good.
I'm not sure whether I feel like writing the manual myself -I am a bit of a writer nonetheless-, but I'd do a better job than the current manual, more beginner-proof.
Exactly. The fact is that BlitzMax is more complicated to start using because it has to be - design decisions have been made to make it much more usable in the long run. Semi-large projects in B3D/Plus turn into an unworkable mess, but the same is not true of Max.
I want to know how thumbing through a slightly-out-of-date printed manual, would yield faster results than using the forum search facility.
Maybe a guide for beginers with the most basic commands, and then some introduction to OOP in BlitzMax could be great, and make BlitzMax more beginer friendly.
I think he's talking about the quality of the electronic documentation, not asking for a printed manual. I love Max. It is my language of choice bar none, but even I admit the documentation stinks.
Snader, you have ever right to moan about the docs, but asking for a refund 2 yrs down the line? I doubt you'll get one.
Snader, you have ever right to moan about the docs, but asking for a refund 2 yrs down the line? I doubt you'll get one
Especially when he states 'he's never had time to learn', is that actually BRL's fault? lol
Dabz
One thing I would like is examples for each of the commands on how they work, there is nothing more irratating than trying to wade through the commandset without any examples on how anything works and in what order.
Luckily I have managed to find an example on networking in BlitzMax but if nobody provided one I would be pulling my hair out by now. A much simpler solution would be a system where people could provide examples that if simple enough was added to the official documentation that is downloaded via syncmods.
..with an accent on 'simple enough'. The last thing a beginner wants is a 2-page source where somewhere in the middle the relevant command is 'explained'. An explanation should be as small as possible, but not smaller.
@Grey
Yep! ;O)
what taumel said.
I thought max was very cryptic and badly documented at first. It seems to have got better lately, although some help still simply show the syntax and a one line description.
In fact, i tend to use the examples and my own past code as a learning/reference manual more than i use the help.
Blitz max seems to have a very logical pattern to learning it however, im still a noob at bmax but im learning it faster than i grasped some of the other languages i have used in the past.
You could always try selling it on ebay i guess :/ (erm, "one blitzmax licence in my name")
But i rekon you should stick with it and learn it.
You may surprise yourself.
If you ask me Blitzmax is alright. I enjoy coding in it for normal stuff.
During the development of Flow, some things came to light; WHy are blitzmax types not c++ safe? Why can't I cast different blitzmax obects with the same fields without losing the contents of the fields? Interfacing is much better than it was with B3D but its still on the weak side. If there was one thing i'd change about blitzmax it was the type compatibility.
I don't have BlitzMax (but do have blitz3d and blitzplus) - is there online documentation for blitzmax as there is for blitz3d and blitzplus? Reason I ask is because I am wondering if I just can't see it, if it is there, because I don't own a copy of BlitzMax (and therefore haven't registered it).
Why can't I cast different blitzmax obects with the same fields without losing the contents of the fields?
You can if the types are derrived from the same base type with all the relevent abstract fields. I don't know of other languages that offer more than that, though I'm sure someone will come up with a list...
WHy are blitzmax types not c++ safe?
Interfacing is definitely the weak point. I would happily settle for even plain C structs.