I'm sad...

CAUTION: Personal Opinion Inside

I returned to Blitz after being away for about 2 years. When I left the community, everyone was very excited about BMAX and the potential it was to have. Somehow, I expected BMAX to be the "successor" to B3D, but sadly, it's not... BMAX remains a fancy way to create 2D applications. And that's it... BMAX was a 2D system over two years ago and remains one today.

Meanwhile, the Blitz3D community remains very active and engaged in B3D projects. It's impressive, to me at least, that for a language that is no longed being "enhanced" that such a core of dedicated users continue using it.

It's sad to see these faithful using a system based on DX7 which is now what, 5 years old or better?

I appeal to Mark Sibley, et al. at Blitz Research to continue B3D by providing a path to DX9 and/or OpenGL. B3D is fine product, it just needs some new tools and capabilities to remain competitive.

Yeah it's a shame we don't have any official 3D in Max in sight. Have you checked out miniB3D? It's essentially the Blitz 3D command set for use with Max. It's still being developed but the results are impressive so far.

I looked at it briefly... It's a worthy project but incomplete...



This was fine before but the day of the standard "VESA compliant" video card have passed. More and more systems have cards which support advanced rendering features... including HLSL and GLSL shading.

.hey!..dont be sad...I can be your best friend, you know :)

B3D got DXTC not so long ago, and Tom for example has made a nice .DLL that enables you to use DX render-2-texture (not forgetting other contributions and add-ons by other ppl). DX7 is bit old, basic shaders would be a nice addition but that would make the language much more complex and might put some ppl off actually.

It's bit like PS2 thing - ppl are now showing the best possible results when the platform is ending it's life cycle because they now knowhow to squeeze everything out of it. How many truly awesome games have you seen made with BMAX?

..soon some dx9 extension library for B3D will be released, so wait and see :)

Yeah, cos nobody in their right mind bothers playing 2D games any more.

I really don't see the purpose of these threads. If you want to dabble with 3D with Blitzmax, there is MiniB3D and I believe there is a Truevision3D wrapper, among others. So 3D solutions are not in short supply although I agree an official one would be nice.

If you want to stick with Blitz3D - great. Yeah its still DX7 but so what? Are you trying to tell me that DX9 or even DX10 means better games for all? I don't think so.

You're clearly unaware that BRL has recently spend a monumental amount of time overhauling the entire Blitzmax audio system following requests from the Blitzmax community (that thing you seem to believe is dead in the water).

Tell me the last 3D game anybody finished and released in Blitz. You might find it was a while ago. You could also go on to explain to me how having Blitz3D DX9 capable would have enhanced it.

The majority of serious productivity IS coming from Blitzmax. Just because people don't shout about it here, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Well, we still use wheels and how old are they? Some things do not need reinventing.

Well Im not sure about dx9, but dx10 has that

Ir2_FinshGame Game* = Magic::FinishGame(Style*)

Function

JetPac one of my fave games didnt use DX7 even ;)

For me BlitzMax is a compiler with the Basic 2D Addon, as the compiler itself can do everything, for 3D there's IrrMax already, and gman made it great...

i agree with yoko, saying what was said above (ie, bmax has no 3d).

C++, java, pascal etc also have no 'built in' 3d engine either but what are 90% of commercal games written in?

In other words yes it can (bmax+3d) it just has more choices. Ones which im still trying to get the time to investigate and play with :(

Some people just don't need DX9. Look at the gallery, sort them in 'highest order' decending, and have a look at the first 5 pages of screenshots.

Still think you need DX9 / DX10?

I agree with JFK: Just because people do not shout about it here, doesn't mean to say there is not projects being developed in BMax.

Yes, I 'play' with B3D, however BMax has more potential for me to 'finish' a product.

As far as no-one plays 2D games anymore... rubbish. My kids have been playing an arkanoid clone featured on binary joy this morning, BricksofEgypt2, I'd recommend it.

Cheer up (;-)

Anyone got a link to that "glowing lines" games that felix did. to show Synchronist. That was a cool looking 2d game.

@Blitzplotter - nice game was looking for something to play today :)

I'm happy. BlitzMAX is pretty close to the perfect prodict as far as I'm concerned. It's extendible, flexible, fast, cross-platform and it works.

With a more productive IDE, a cross-compiler and better 3rd party product integration (I'm thinking particularly of SpeedTree/Grass and PhysiX) - BlitzMAX just might deliver on Brooks' Silver Bullet.

No. I'm saying that I think it's a pity that someone that wishes to create games in B3D doesn't have the seamless access to DX9/DX10 and the newer features they incorporate.


Yes I do. For reasons stated above AND from a marketability standpoint. It's pretty much a fact that software buyers will gravitate towards applications that use new and/or current technologies. Why buy an "old tech" game when you're shiny new video card supports advanced rendering features? Developing a game with DX7 is a liability in this regard, IMO.



Possibly. But then again, it would be nice to have the choice of using the newer features of DX9/DX10... I believe both newer versions are DX7 backward compatible.



One may hope.. :)



Yes it would...

I guess, all being said, that in essence I'm disappointed that BMAX didn't turn out to be the "killer game app" that I expected it to be...

Hmm, guess I'll have to consider buying BMAX and use the Irrlicht wrapper library...

Cheers!

Thats probably the most accurate representation of BlitzMax.

Unfortunately, Blitz has a culture of being a game-centric language. Which is what spawns ridiculous posts such as this.

Synchronist:
Max is closer to a full blown application language now akin to C#, Python, VB.Net, etc than a language specific to gaming.

While I can understand why it's easy to gripe about Max because of Blitz's legacy of game-specific API, if you look at the language from a general purpose software development standpoint, it's leaps and bounds above anything that BRL has released before this point.

In short, your complaint is probably being viewed about in the same vein as "C# doesn't have any built in 3D support, so it sucks".


Well.. Max is definitely behind languages such as Python, Java and .Net on this front.

The language I'd say is probably closest to the silver bullet at this time is probably Python.

Sorry to waste your time RG...



Well yes, actually. Game coding is what caused me to purchase B3D in the first place, over and above other BASIC style languages that were available.

And while BMAX may be "leaps and bounds" above anything else BRL has done, I'm confused as to what BMAX is intended to be... if not a game programming language as was intended.



That's an interesting observation. Two years ago, BMAX was touted as the "Next Gen" successor to B3D... Frankly, if I wanted YAPL (Yet Another Programming Language)I'd use Python, Lua or any one of the 10 or so languages I'm already proficient in...



Not really. It's more of a "Gee, BMAX has been out for awhile and STILL doesn't do 3D..." kind of complaint.

And I do think C# sucks BTW... LOL... :)

My they just dont like change.

Besides BMAX wont work anymore for me since the lastest update, bugger it Dont just work at all, so I had to regress to what is the older (but perfect version) of BMAX, some of the changes to BMAX now crash my computer, even intermittantly without any messages etc.

It looks like I might have to move on relucantly at some point.

PS. How come B3D's IDE highlights syntax almost immediately, but BMAX nearly overloads/locks my powerful PC notebook when I open large BMAX source code?

B3D's IDE is dodgy AS with no undo I could lose a chunk of source code by accidently bumping the mouse pad on my notebook with my thumb, and that just about kills it for me anyway, several years later its unusal to find that the same issue still exists, as I wouldnt let that go on in my free programs, even NotePad has undo.

Is anyone else having problems with BMAX 1.24 ,im getting many issues that never existed in the last release? like problems in the audio sound driver, standard open file dialog has moved hard left/top (Ouch) ,Intermittantly ungracefully exiting my app without any warning or messages, FLIP (to update a canvas) crashes my apP AFTER "endgraphics" etc..etc... or is it just me?

Remembering that Bug spotting is very easy but skilled bug repairing takes a skilled programmer.

And I forgot to mention

I guess thats the problem. People coming from Blitz3d expected max to be another language to make game-programming easy. But right now we have to deal with 3rd party libraries for 3D. If I liked doing that I'd use C++. So I'm just doing 2D for now...

Max is a mile better than C or C++ for me. I program C for the day-job, and even the simplest piece of codes throws a ton of errors before I get it to work. I was really taken back when I came back to Blitz after a break, and my program worked first time.

@Synchronist - you've taken a bit of flak on this thread. Truth is you've probably not been around the forums much and you missed the previous bunch of posts identical to yours, throug no fault of your own. I think you have more chance of a result if you pin your hopes on a BRL 3D engine for Max, because B3D is really considered a complete product. I'm not too sure myself now, given recen statements, if we ever will see Max3D, but I like to think Mark is just buying some breathing space and is quietly hammering away at it.

@Gav - no problems here. It would be a shame if you had to go. Try posting a bug report, even if there's not a lot you can put in it.

You're not wasting my time. What another ridiculous thing to say. I just think if you ever look at the forums once in awhile, you'd see that this type of post is generally described as "whining". You have every right to post. I have as much right to respond. You have a right to complain. I have a right to complain about your complaint. As long as we're somewhat civil about it, right? :)



So let me get this straight....

People complain that the language doesn't have any sort of 3D engine baked into it...

Yet, in the next breath, will complain that B3D is only compatible with a legacy version of Direct X...

Even though Mark has mentioned this a zillion times, apparently nobody listens. B3d hasn't upgraded to a later version of DX because he coupled B3D as it is now a little too tightly to DX7. Hindsight is 20/20, and BMax was his answer to ensure he didn't fall into that trap again.

You realize by making this an abstract concept, Mark has allowed you to make the choice to utilize whatever engine you wish to use.

Surely you know this, as anyone "proficient" in a number of languages should get the benefits of modularity and abstraction.



If and when Mark ever does produce a 3D module, it will be implemented like any of the third party ones (i.e. you will import it as a reference, and the commands will auto-magically become part of the syntax)

He's already established that pattern with the 2D modules.


What a surprise :)

@RocketGnome: please consider that my frame of reference for BMAX is two years old. Back then, it was expected that BMAX would support OpenGL as the rendering API and most of us thought of BMAX as a replacement for B3D.



Precisely the point. Blitz3D was created for exactly that kind of coding and was the original reason I purchased it. I program for a living and returned to Blitz just to "have some simple fun" and program a couple of 3D games. B3D is still fun and I probably will create my games using DX7 features.

My disappointment stems from finding out, after a two year hiatus from BRL products, that BMAX has not matured into the 3D replacement for Blitz3D...

oh, well... no worries... ;)



True. And it was certainly not my intention to stir things up with my post or come across as "whining".



That appears to be the case. I'll continue to use B3D until then and keep an eye on MiniB3D as well!

Cheers!

They should probably give Cobra a look when (if) the 3D module for that appears. I think it's going to be the nearest thing to an ideological successor to B3D that we see for a good while.


If you want stable 3D on low end machines then B3D is still the boy. The last time I checked, Max's audio support was laughable, glitching on some of the more popular soundcards under 9x and requiring users to roll their own mod players, or license FMOD, or put their faith in the community module. That frontier spirit ain't for everyone, ta.

B3D does suck for 2D Mac shareware development, though, so I'd definitely go with Max for that. Actually, if I were a Mac user I'd probably be overjoyed with Max.

keep it coming interesting

Yes it is:

You probably aren't ideally placed to be judging it, then.

@Gav

Use another IDE then. It's well known that the standard Blitz3D IDE isn't best suited to large projects. Not just from a capacity point of view, but also because larger projects tend to need more project management, i.e. use of include files, structured media storage. Look for Protean IDE, Visual Blitz, IDEal..


Saying Blitz3D looks like low-end Dark Basic programs is just ridiculous. Producing any GUI is about how good you are with visuals, not necessarily your artistic skill. Middleware certainly helps - MaxGUI is an example of simplifying interfaces, just as Blitz3D has sprite candy and numerous other GUI libraries. A bad programmer blames his tools - there are so many tools and middleware resources out there for Blitz3D, I'm just amazed there aren't millions of games out there. Too many of these types of thread I imagine holding 'developers' back...

Christ people....

You *have* the ability to solve the 3D issue- I've never complained about Max3D and instead our team created our own solution- A couple of bad starts, yes- but if you don't give up you'll get there.

There's Irrlicht, TV3D, and soon more. (We have one good one in the works.)

And stop whining about B3D- our racer was written in it PRIOR to DXTC and that looks good- We could go back to it and increase detail 3fold now.

Truth is we've fallen into this "Lazy programmer" era- everyone wants the quick and easy answer to their solution- I don't blame us at all. Even our 3D solution uses Ogre!

You should push your current tools to their limits really- meaning if you have B3D and want to code in 3D, push B3D to it's limits- really dig into the commandset- you'll be surprised what you can do- DirectX 20 or not.

Funny, thats the same impression most get when coming back here after some time away. Just look at the front page!



=)



Your not, your just rocking the Blitz Image (most around here are getting to be like the DB community, one bad word about their GOD brings out the torches and pitch forks). If your not on the bandwagon, then your a rock under the tire.


C# doesn't suck at all.



You can have mine! I have shelved B3D as it's getting to painfull to develop in with an OO mindset. My Blitzmax has been shelved ever since I got it (with the exception of writing a compiler with it when it was first released to 'learn' bmax). Since then it was waiting for the 3d Module. I even bought Blitzplus to throw mark some money for support some time back.

Now that 3dMax is considered 'non-existant', I have moved on to c# and Managed DX/XNA. Much cleaner code, better docs, no vapureware 3d engines.

I'd much prefer if BR just focused on the core compiler, particularly the IDE and debugger. Of course I am doing my own 3D, so Max3D isn't a big deal to me.

A 3D engine is so much work that I'm not sure one person can support that and a compiler at the same time.

Honestly, I don't even think it should be BR's job to write official audio modules. There's enough third-party solutions out there already. That's the point of having such a great, flexible language as BlitzMax.

The biggest problem I have is the debugger. It crashes if you open more than one tree node, and it doesn't have an option to alphabetize, so I can never find anything. I'd really like to see this improved instead of adding any more modules.

Well, I think that's really it, DH. I wanted to come back and do some simple, fun, game development with BMAX, (having used B3D in the past), thinking BMAX had matured and gained its 3D feature set. I guess not, but then again, it's not the end of the world either... (pitchforks and torches not withstanding...) :)


Interesting to me that BMAX has become more of a "language"... I'm not sure that was the intent two years ago, but hey, perhaps it's a better thing. More flexibility...



Ok, ya got me DH... I'll confess... I bought the O'Reilly "Programming C#" book... (in preparation for a project for a client)

A supported 3d module is what I was looking for. sure I could load up a 3rd party, but then I'd be hoping they work together, monitoring two websites to see if bugs are fixed in either, hoping that the 3d module site doesnt discontinue support (up and leave) meaning I would have to start all over again.


;-)

They're still having problems getting the keyboard input module to work on all 3 operating systems. This isn't a reflection of coding ability, it just seems like it's way too much work for their staff. In my own projects, I have hit that point, and that's when you have to start contracting more programmers.

Or provided a good API/Interface to allow someone to take up the challenge on their own...


Agreed. It took a couple years between Blitz2D and 3D. Now the target platforms have tripled, and the scope of Blitz (the misunderstanding of which was what prompted this thread to begin with) has widened quite a bit.


In my experience, there's got to be a lot of things established and outlined to prepare for a multi-developer environment that's successful and productive.

Not saying that BRL hasn't established any coding standards or project management procedures, but those typically are the last thing worried about when you're a one-man operation.

Fred Brooks has gone to great lengths explaining the challenges and misnomers of adding developers to a project to make it deliver on time. The sad reality is, because developing isn't like factory work, adding developers usually makes the delivery later.


That's a good point. But if you look at the BMax blurb, it doesn't claim to be a game-specific language like B3D.

I do agree it's a bit misleading in context to the other products.


If you've developed in Python, Java or even BMax, you'll quickly get used to C#. It's very similar to all of those in both syntax and design approach.