Stop asking for Max3D...

...and go for the next Garage Game engine instead!

http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgea/



BlitzMax is very good at what it does so far: 2D and GUI. If minib3d isn't enough for you then you should really, really consider the new Torque engine. I'm already saving up for it (Mac version isn't out yet) because a friend of mine got it and I could take a look at it: it's awesome! This is what I call an complete 3D game engine =)

Looks like a nice 3d renderer, but does that mean good games?

Best not ask that; could get dangerous.

Though I agree, Flash put me off anything with a point and click interface. Straight code lets me organize how I want, and it really doesn't take long to get a decent structure.
Anything that already has a structure like that already present tends to drive me nuts. (Especially when that structure conceals things like SIMPLE DRAWING COMMANDS as though I don't need them. Apparently Torque is pretty good for the lower level stuff, but they all have some little flaw that drives me mad).

It uses the demo from Torque Shader Engine...
Seems to be a variation or renaming.

My GFX card is slow that runs a bit slow with the demo...

..it is TSE , just suited in new cloth...

It is the Torque Shader Engine, they changed the name because it's more than just shaders. I personally, got a lot out of Torque as a platform and do recommend it for certain games especially.

I'm not comparing it to Blitz anymore, I'm past that. Both have their benefits and I'll get into Max3D when it's released. I still don't think anyone does this stuff like Mark does. Few (if any) people have the ability that bring the elegance that Mark does to game development and 3D in general. The guy's a straight up genius.

I agree, it's just a little disturbing to see all those "When will Max3D be released?", "Mark, please speak to us!", "Is BRL still alive?" threads just because the official 3D module is nowhere near.
There are other solutions and I really thing TGEA is one of the most advanced ones. I think it was flameduck who was searching a decent game engine a few weeks ago. This Thread is for people like him.

I agree, it's just a little disturbing to see all those "When will Max3D be released?", "Mark, please speak to us!", "Is BRL still alive?" threads just because the official 3D module is nowhere near.
There are other solutions and I really thing TGEA is one of the most advanced ones. I think it was flameduck who was searching a decent game engine a few weeks ago. This Thread is for people like him.

Tell me, How is the media support going? and how's the debugging going these days?

It was a total pain in the arse pre TSE! :) I just couldn't get around the inconvenience of having to clear/delete files each time I "build".

I think FD may be looking for something a little more programmer ready- I'm not saying it was bad, I had great fun with it, but I just didn't feel I could do anything with it. Of course, TSE (or TGEA now?) may be different, but I somewhat doubt they overcame the issues I had with it.

I like to program rather than script, but using say TGEA source to create a game feels more like hacking than anything!
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I agree with the "Stop asking about Max3D" request.
Create or purchase your own solutions. TGEA may be it, Ogre may be it, Irrlicht may be it. The time you will spend waiting for Max3D will be longer than the time it takes to pick up enough C++ to at least hack yourself a wrapper of another renderer. If we hadn't got someone else to wrap for us thats what I'd have done by now too. :)

I have licenses for all Torque Engines. TGE and TGEA are OK but be prepared to pull your hair out when trying to get anything done with it. Both Engines are terrible for beginners and even GarageGames has had to admit that you need a certain skill level in programming before you could easily get up and running with TGE/TGEA.

I gave up on the Torque Engines a while ago. They're ok but there really is better solutions out there for making 3D games.

By the way, TGEA is a game engine. Max3D is (or probably will be) a 3D engine.

@Amon: please define "better". I think you mean "easier" rather than "better". The Unreal 3 engine is not easier than Blitz3D to use but certainly better.
Maybe you should say: "They're ok but FOR ME there really is better solutions out there for making 3D games." I found it really easy to get going with TGEA because I already knew TorqueScript and my friend showed me quite some things. But it's true: it's not BASIC and it's not for the lone warrior.

..ok so question will be..what Game engine suite out there is the best for lone warrior developers??

Easier is vital when you dont have teams of coders working in a professional environment.

That is why torque is a false promise, and unrealistic for the majority.

@Naughty Alien: I guess that would be something like Blitz3D, DarkBasic Pro, GLBasic...

@Lowcs: That's not true. Garage Games says Torque is for the Independent developer and that is totally true. It's easy if you understand Torque Script and with a few people for art and leveldesign it's totally easy to go on. But it's not that rapid prototyping like in Blitz3D. Torque needs more time maybe but the way of doing things is often better/more professional and in the end this will show off in the resulting games.

I havent checked the Torque site lately but the last time I played with it, I got frustrated because building a simple menu HUD with bitmap fonts was a pain in the ass. While i did found a hack way to do it, the time it took to figure out made me lost the motivation. Also some of the tutorials were also out of date...

I don't care for torque, but it is ok if you want an easy to mod FPS engine that can be made to do other things with a lot of work.

The TSE engine is still pretty dated, and I much prefer the way Bmax works with something like Ogre3d. There also seems to be a lot more commercial games being published with Ogre3D than with Torque.

TGE and the new shader engine havent really done much in the last 5 years, but their 2D engine seems to be doing well for casual and indie games.

Torque always seems appealing because it is a very complete engine; just plug in the media and a few scripts and you're ready to go.

The problem is, unless you're game is 99% like Tribes 2, chances are you're going to have to "hack" the engine. And this is why I don't use Torque - it is a very specialized engine, and if I want to make a game with any originality, it's a whole lot easier to build your own game framework with something like Blitz3D.

Anyway, TGEA seems just like TGE, but with a few added features (mainly shaders). I tried the demo, and their shaders are nice, but I would hardly judge an engine on that alone.

So, from my point of view, the advantages/disadvantages of TSEA are:
+ Nice shader system
+ Good animation, terrain, particle, etc. support
+ Basically a full-featured game engine for Tribes-like games
- Your game is going to feel just like Tribes 2 unless you "hack" the engine
- I prefer programming over scripting (where I can lay out a structure that best works for my game)
- No way to add features like high volume tree systems without major engine hacking
- By the time you finish learning and modifying the engine, you could have implemented your game framework in another engine long ago

I think the main thing is (as Cygnus said) that Torque is a game engine, while Blitz3D, BlitzMax, Ogre, etc. are mainly graphics engines (although sometimes with audio libs included). This means that a direct comparison between them are impossible.

Basically, when you choose a game engine you have to consider what types of games it works with, while with a graphics engine doesn't matter. For example, you wouldn't use an FPS engine for a NASCAR style game, and you wouldn't use a RPG engine for a flight simulator. But you could use a graphics engine for any of these.

Torque is excellent for what it does, but unfortunately it's hard to keep your game from feeling like Tribes 2. I prefer graphics engines because they give me full control of the feel of my game, which is important to me.

Except if "ease of use" was your main criteria for success? Being better is just as subjective as being easier.

TBH I dont think there is anything wrong with asking about Max3d having some information on it is better than months of silence and speculation surely. A thousand posts about 'when is it out' is much more damaging company wise than 'I am currently working on x and its looking y'.

Mark already said maybe he should refer to Max3D as to "what 3D engine?". Maybe it won't be released at all, maybe in 1-5 years. For me - however - there is no official BMX 3D module announced.

Then show me the one-man games made with torque. They are very, very few compared the amount of full games made in Darkbasic and Blitzbasic made by lots of people.

And Torque has a far larger userbase.

There is no escaping or denying the fact that it takes a very, very professional individual to create a game and finish it in torque as opposed to creating a game in Blitz/dark and finishing it.

Torque was DESIGNED initially as the tribes engine, and in actual fact not a great deal of it has changed in terms of how much one must do to make a game. Torque play heavily on indie as a primary means of their income. Go figure.

Torque isn't designed at all for an indie/hobbyist market. It is only marketed for this market.

I agree that Torque is hardly in the same league as Blitz or DB. However, Cobra3D is (I believe) due reasonably soon.

In fact, I don't think Cobra3D has been mentioned in this thread. So, it could be a new contender for people who like the Blitz/DB type of route.

I think the problem Blitz Research and Mark will have is there is always someone who will step up and take the reigns when something isnt right or takes too long.

DB Pro may not be the best route to coding something but at least there is loads of activity from the developers. I also agree Torque isnt really in the same league as Blitz, but there will be loads that will be and if BR isnt careful they will loose customer base to them.

Which empirically demonstrates that overt activity is not a good thing.

Well, it's their company and they're allowed to. Besides, the way BRLs product model is put together, it's not like they get a lot of repeat custom. Unlike say TGC, who need their existing customer base to buy all their supplemental products, BRL rely on the influx of new customers to stay in business.

But at least they hold onto thier userbase whilst adding new users.


Agreed its their company, but the best model for any company is to hold onto its userbase and customers whilst adding more customers. This way at least the userbase grows and the community thrives. In the end there will be a lack of new customers and then where will Blitz be?

the old customers will come back to play with the new stuff BRL has released? ;) hehe

Well there is a reason why the head of db is a millionaire and it is because he gives them what they want.

Mark is no doubt trying to, but business relies on lots, often - not few, rarely.

Lowcs: agreed