Err - This is a joke, Right?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1969920,00.html

Could you imagine if this became an EU law.

yes, it means we would have to go back to pacman, super mario and other odd characters, who kill nonetheless, and promote eating pills.. :P

Its that barmy it probably will be!

If we cannot have bendy bananas in the EU, I'd imagine they'll lock down anything!

Dabz

P.S. And it will also mean another excuse to get out of this stupid union, move somewhere nicer... You know, somewhere where they have less rules, like North Korea! ;)

There goes their economy.
(ok, gross exaggeration, but still >.>)

Or all the enemies will look just like big blobs...

Barney

Well, I learned another thing today. Games in Germany are heavily censored. Aparently the German Government has laws on Violent Video games.

Maybe they got tired of getting their asses kicked at Call Of Duty. :)

That they do, to the point where I've seen "gore patches" for german copies of games that include the blood/violence North Americans & Europeans get to enjoy...


If the media is anything over there like it is over here, people would just scream "but the blobs are representing humans!" baloney no?


I don't know, but apparently from the short article it looks like that 18y/o was playing that game for a long time before he hit Mature status of being legibly able to purchase said product, I'd blame his parents.

What is non-cruel violence?

That's nice. I wish people would stop presenting their ill-informed opinions as if it where facts. The facts is that violent crime has been in a steady decline since 1992, the year Mortal Kombat the most overtly violent videogame in history was released. Thanks largely to violent videogames, violent crime is lower than at any other point in recorded human history.

I agree with Flameduck. I played lots of violent games (Hunchback, Elidon, Bumping Buggies) and I am a very friendly person!

Why can't anyone take responsibility for their actions anymore?

because pointing blame for your own actions is the new jesus.

I can.*





*Any responsibility inferred, implied or guaranteed is null and void and cannot be taken to mean that the wielder of this disclaimer has in any way accepted responsibility for his/her actions or the actions of anyone related or unrelated to the wielder. All responsibility relating to this person(s) is hereby transferred to this person(s) parents, except when explicitly declared by this person(s) and witnessed in by three qualified lawyers over the age of 150 years (earth time).

Still, the Germans have a funny thing about violence - I might be wrong here, but didn't they ban red blood from games and want it replaced with green blood - and humans had to be replaced by zombies - something like that anyway.

Germany is the only modern democracy which has seen how easy it is to dehumanise a large part of is population, and pursuade another part to "cleanse" them.
They managed within one generation of being demilliterized to create what was undoubtably the most well organized and efficent army the world has ever seen. Look at quotes from Paton and the like, who stated that even upon surrendering they (the German army), had a disipline that put his troops to shame.

As a nation the Germans were pursuaded that some groups of humans where of less value than others. They had there own people with genetic defects voluteersing to be sterilised to maintain a pure race. They ran the most efficiant genoside that the world has ever seen.

AND THEY DONT WANT TO DO IT AGAIN

Now we can all sit here and laugh, but the German government is with all sincerity simly trying to halt a dehuminization of violence. Because they know were it can lead.

It's still funny though.

You know how the line goes

only in America...

or in this case

Only in germany...

FPSes will turn into gardeners shooting water at incredibly humanoid flowers.

FPSes will turn into gardeners shooting water at incredibly humanoid flowers.

If it's worked out well, one could seriously be amused with that. The problem is that ppl are too embarrassed to play such games, even if the gameplay is perfect. A little bit o' Monty Python would do such a game well, in order to make it suitable for the more mature players. :-)

Isn't that what Israel does right now?

What about the 20,000,000 Russians killed by the Communists? The Albanian genocide by the Serbs? Violence and war are hardly unique to Germany.

Yes but everyone knows what a keen videogamer Hitler was.

ahhhh, I think the salient point is that those others dont think they have done wrong

If that's true then why didn't he get any headshots?

In the end it all comes down to common sense, I mean throughout my game playing life I commit mass murder on a daily basis, whether I've pildrived a punk into the floor with Haggar on Final Fight, whether I've shot some guy in the knackers on some FPS, whether I've shots hundreds of enemy ships on games like R-Type. (These alien/human ships aren't on auto pilot are they, some poor bloke has exploded horrendously in that little space craft.)

Hmm, I'd say my virtual kill body count is fast approaching 100,000 kills, if not more from all the games I've played over the years. I'd say the average hardcore gamer has slaughtered a whole small country worth of body count.

The thing to remember though is that NONE OF THEM WERE REAL. I doubt there is a single person here who has even seen a real murder letalone commit one. If people had any moral ethics to consider when playing computer games then the human race would have been exstinct by now in the 1980s

I myself have watched millions of adverts for the likes of tampax and lipstick. And have never ever bought any. Which just goes to show that advertising doesnt work.

>I myself have watched millions of adverts for the likes of
>tampax and lipstick. And have never ever bought any. Which
>just goes to show that advertising doesnt work.

Perhaps if you subjected yourself to tampax and lipstick commercials 15 hours a day for months, you'd be walking around sporting a glossy red troutpout and a tampax up your rectum.

Andy

whhhoooosh

.

lol, from germany... to tampax!

How the hell did that happen? hehehe

Dabz

Lets ban life since it leads to pain and agony (and death)

Yes let's not do something to detect mentally unstable people and treat them, let's ban games and leave mentally unstable people out in the community so their eventual victims can be safe in the knowledge that their injures weren't induced by games, rather than working towards a system where mentally unstable people are identified and treated so that nobody is injured/murdered.

No, no, it's true. You'll actually become what you see on the computer screen every day. That's why I'm now a naked girl with humongous bazongas running around in a night club. It's not so bad, really...

This is what happens when you outlaw cruel violence (as opposed to benevolent violence appearently) towards humans.

Politicians know that 'the other side' will benefit politically from a successful long-term preventive measure, so they prefer the quick but ultimately useless fix.

Andy

@Flame

Thats one of the most bizzare games I've ever seen! :)

Though, I'd love to hear what the tree huggers would say if every game had a basis like this! lol

Dabz

Okay... That's just wierd... The train ran over the pidgeons... (Runs away and hides)

If they do that, they'll have to do it for movies too.

I thought he was a keen risk enthusiast just nobody told him it was just a game j/k ;)

Germany's government is still oppressive, so nothing has changed since WW2

I'm deeply impressed by the large wisdom some of you guys have of germany! :O)

no its not a joke - its a farce .

Actually, I wouldn't rack down as hard on the Germans if you look at your own laws...

In most western countries (especially US) it's all ok goring and cutting heads of each other and noone would even frown about it but when such a natural thing as sex is trying to make it's way into some games it is TOTALLY censored.

I don't like any kind of censoring but I personally agree that glorifying crimes as murder, molesting is actually worse than 2 meshes humping each other.

(and yes, it's not hard to see which posts in here comes from USlocated people :P ... Im not German at all but hey you really could use some more information about the country before posting, or as Bush would say: "One of the things that I hope people come to understand is that there ... And one such goal is a democracy in Germany ")

>In most western countries (especially US) it's all ok
>goring and cutting heads of each other and noone would
>even frown about it but when such a natural thing as sex
>is trying to make it's way into some games it is TOTALLY
>censored.

That's BS. Attitudes to sex in games is very different in various places in the western world. In the scandinavian countries(protestant christian), sex in games is considered a non issue. In western europe(catholic christian), sex is considered a growing concern. In eastern europe(Orthodox christian and predominantly sunni islam) sex in games is considered a serious problem. Although the USA is a predominently protestant society, it has developed a neo puritan attitude towards sex which is unlike anything in western europe(Except for the evangelical movement which is being exported to the EU).


Andy

US: Killing ppl o-kay, bare tit blasphemy
EU: Vice versa...

It's always been like this.

I can understand that the US NRA-gun owning attitude has made US people tolerant to guns and violence that follows (don't try to explain this with "guns don't kill people, people do"). What I don't get is where they get the sex-o-fobia, especially because they are at the same time biggest producers of sex films, with studios located right next to hollywood movie studios...

But what germans are trying to pull with this law is huge overreaction. Maybe their traumas from the history are still affecting or something.

Just a morning cup of coffee rant, ignore me if you disagree :)

agree ;)

HAHA, yeah that's great. I'm surprised you don't have to have a licence to have boobs in the US.

One exception: In the US nudity is OK too, provided that the person in question is dead and/or maimed first.

Twisted.

I don't see a lot of dead/maimed naked people on my television. What station are you watching?

You don't get The Necrophilia Channel where you live?

Law and Order SVU
and
CSI Miami
CSI ..other cities

>You don't get The Necrophilia Channel where you live?

I think we call it CNN in these parts of the woods...


Andy

Getting back to the original topic (kind of), these type of restrictions often lead to great innovation. Historically, the best creative achievements come about when censorship and social/cultural/gender constraints are at their strictest. I suppose it's a product of the friction between the artist and the censor, and because people are forced to achieve their goals with greater subtletly and innovation.

Besides, I'm not a huge fan of games that rely on violence or realistic visuals, so, for purely selfish reasons, I'd not object if this law was taken up by other countries.

JustLuke: I think you actually mention something really important here and as developers (yes hobbyists and professionals) we actually should reflect on the question why.

Of course our first reaction to this is that censoring is evil but somewhere in all this we should start the debate wether violence is the ONLY source of digital entertainment (except for putting cubes together).

We can of course shrug our shoulders about Postal2 and say it's just a gimmick or we could actually start discussing wether it does impact on our sense for human values.

If we say that it doesn't impact at all, then we actually lower our own work to a non-art level saying that this form of estethic work does not impact the humanity like all the other artforms does. We are alone creating entertainment that doesn't reach to people.

On the other hand, if we realize that this form of entertainment actually CAN touch people wether it be positive or negative then we need to start thinking about what kind of impact we want it to have and what ways the gameindustry need to take to get there.

Big words? Yes it is. Darn, it's Sundaymorning for crying out loud.

Still I do believe there is a lot more in this form of entertainment than rushes of violence and rewards due to others harm.

Ofcourse it isn't. Some people find snooker entertaining, for instance. It's just that action, and thus usually some form of violence (be it a high speed car chase, fighting off zombies or sacking the quarterback) is more exciting.

No. Just games like postal. There's one important thing you're missing here, and that is free will. Even if Postal and GTA really where murder simulators as some people claim, there is a diference between knowing how to kill someone and acting on it. I'm fairly sure even the dumbest GED redneck moron would be able to figure out that if you shoot someone in the head repeatedly with a firearm, they're eventually gonna die, videogames or not. Personally I'd prefer it when sociopaths act out their violent compulsions on digital people, as oposed to real predominantly innocent people.

Sure. The industry does that already. They have independant organizations both in the US and Europe who rate videogames accordingly.

Excuse me. I dont think that censoring is evil. I live in a country that doesnot have a statute of free speach (UK), and I dont concider this position to be evil or even wrong.

I censor what my children watch, read, and listen to. I leave "safe search" On in google. I am quite happy that they wont be able to casualy hear neither Muslim nor Nazi fundimentalists. I had no problem with not being to hear Gerry Adams real voice in the 80's.

In short, I dont mind Censorship as long as I am aware of the material being censored.

As to violence in computer games and TV. It probably does lead to more violence in real life. People who say, "oh look" before TV people were just as violent. This is true, because they saw and were victims of it from there parents. Now though that parents are supposed to be less violent they see it on TV/computer games.

Now I made a comment earlyer that I dont use Tampax even though I have seen adverts for them on the TV. This obviously was a sarcatic comment, yet the reply that I might if I watched these adverts for 15 hours a day doesnt boad well for computer users

I also have killed the population of at the very least a small galaxy, (I like space strat games), and I was as everyone here able to distinguash between the number of casulties the computer printed, and real life. However, as the graphics and sound and physics etc improve will I be able to tell the difference between the memory of killing in a computer game and what the memory of really killing is like? I dont know. Maybe I could. But if I couldnt would then I not be "day dreaming" of killing people?

Violent people might always be violent, or they might be quite normal people doing something that they think is normal. The German people have had modern experiance of how easy it is to think that normal is something, that they now see as abhorent. And as such they are more aware of how easy it is to be disenceitised to violence against people. I dont think that Germany is any more of less violent than any other comaprable western nation, but they are definatly thinking about how to be less violent. And that is not wrong.

Except violence in western countries is at a record low.

It'll never happen. There is no chance that a videogame will ever make a rational human being believe he is in a life or death situation. Killing someone in real life, is a lot different from killing someone make believe, unless you happen to be a socipath.

The German people were lied too. They had no idea what was going on. As the allies pushed them back, captured German civil servants where shown what they where unknowningly taking part in. Most of them, unable to live with the horrors commited suicide. The Average German didn't have the slightest clue what was going on, they rallied behind Hitler, because the allies where slaughtering them in the millions.

I didnt say it would. I said it would make them remember it exactly the same as if it had been a life or death situation.

Really. I had thought we were slaughtering them in millions ten years after Hitler came to power. But this is just another time Im wrong

Is this like the same way a 9 year old still thinks Father Christmas is real.

And? Just because other factors are bringing the level of violence down, doesnt mean that tv and computer games are not increasing it a bit. I would be very supprised if it wasnt going down. What with most western nations becomeing police states

Some of you replying on my post really didn't get the picture of what Im trying to say:

I do OF COURSE not believe that games makes people killing people. I'm more after how our values actually changes. As you totally missed that I will try to put it this way:

Yes, i actually believe Dr.Phil are making some change in peoples lifes.
I also believe that music can actually change people, not only because musicians itself hopes that it will but because I personally have sat down totally stunned by the music.
I also believe that art in any form can have enormous impact in politcal values and change how people think.

If you don't agree on the above you probably wont agree on me now

I also believe that if I'm sitting 50 hours a week (not an unnormal amount of time) behind a media as computergames the game also do impacts me.
Why shouldn't it?

So I'm not saying because I play a guy robbing people, I will start robbing people. Neither do I say that if I listen to 50 Cent I will probably be a member of a black gang but I WILL be influenced.

If you as FLAMEDUCK believes that the industry already is taking it's part by having the ratingsystem. Sure, then we're all done here I guess.
I just wanted to start the dialouge because as gamers we always protect ourself saying.. 'HAH, I won't kill anyone, only retards kill after playing games'

Laws are created like this , not because everybody may be affected/influenced. They fear a small pertcentage will be triggered or influenced into performing violent acts.

If you are not in that small percentage then you are being punished and potentally protected. It also means you can not use yourself as a reason they laws should not exist.

The World News has always been far worse for me. I remember as a child eating dinner, and watching a guy getting shot in the head in a failed robbery.

I'm only surprised this wasn't discussed earlier. With stupid ideas like this the german rep/democrat alliance govt. is trying to disguise that they A) have sold their souls and B) they haven't got a single solution to any of the many problems.

People are forced to save money (raising taxes, decreasing service etc.) more and more. From time to time the govt needs to present a "bad guy" that can be made guilty for the generally increasing misery.

"Killer Games" are guilty this time again. 50% of the german male kids have them installed. It might have been pure coincedense that the recent youth gunmen played such games.

Note the last german "gunman incident" who triggered this discussion was a teenager using some old pirate pistols (front loader one shot stuff), something I would consider to use at best as wall decoration.

Now this discussion about "Killer Games" is only further concrete in the basement for the grave of the citicens autonomity.

The regulation of daily things like PC games is one step to a totalitary government. They want to make a law for every little poop.

If they were really consequent, they should censor murder and killing in the tv, esp. in the news. Not only the pics, but also the message that eg. some soldiers can kill civilians without to worry too much about the law, and that it's only a matter of power if they will ever be punished.

At the other hand - I don't like games with glorified slaugthering and people who love to cut bodies in pieces only for the fun of it, they probably really have some kind of mental defect.

EDIT
form the article:
...and wounded 37 people before killing himself. ...

Wow I really wonder how he wounded 37 people with two oneshot frontloader ancient pistols. Even if he had 4 of them (I think I remember he had 2) then it would still be very difficult... Newspapers - must love'em.

Probably they had a shock and therefor have been declared wounded. Not realy masters of their language they are.

Maybe he shot a water pipe with the first one, and an electric cable with the second one.

Sounds like most Brits I know. Don't they arrest people over there for being "intolerant"?

ONly if you complain with bricks

If this isn't a joke than it sounds like Rockstar Games (the creator of GTA), would'nt be at home over in germany!