OMG, I'm being forced to get VISTA by Microsoft!

Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/OMG, I'm being forced to get VISTA by Microsoft!

I just got this email from one of my portals/distributors!

Dear Game Development Partner,

As you are probably aware, Microsoft is planning to launch the latest version of its operating system, Windows Vista, on January 30, 2007. The marketing push and focus on this release will be unprecedented, and Microsoft expects widespread adoption of the new system to occur more quickly than any OS release in the company’s history.

Given this, we want to make sure that our development partners are aware of Microsoft’s compatibility requirements for games on the Vista Operating System. Please bear in mind that any games submitted to X after January 1, 2007 are required to be Vista compatible, as outlined below, in order to launch on the X network. Also, any game which does not meet the first two of the following requirements will risk being pulled from the MSN Games website on or before January 30th, 2007.

X’s Vista Compatibility Requirements and Best Practices

- Does the game run in Windows Vista with UAC enabled?
- Does the game run in both 32-bit and 64-bit environments?
- Can Standard users ("Restricted Users" in Windows XP) save data and use the game when UAC is disabled? (This requirement is scheduled to take effect on March 1, 2007.)
- If the game must unpack its resources to the hard drive, this must be done at installation time, not at the game's first run. Appropriate documentation must be provided to X so that the installer can be configured to unpack the game's resources. (This requirement is scheduled to take effect on March 1, 2007.)
- Optional but strongly recommended for placement on MSN Games Web Site: X should be provided a 256x256 game icon if possible.

While the above are the basic compatibility requirements for inclusion on the Microsoft Games Web site and to run on Windows Vista, there is also a higher standard of compliance, Microsoft’s Games for Windows standard. While the overall requirements are still being developed, the technical requirements can be found in the DirectX SDK (Dec 2006 Version), which is available here:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=05DA7623-F2F9-4F57-91AA-6DB27FB8305F&displaylang=en

This pretty much stinks...

Anyone know how "Vista ready" Blitz Max is?

AdrianT

seemed fine last I tried it, Most things work just fine if they work in XP. The only thing I find is that you need some extra ram to get equivalent speed to XP in demanding apps and games.

bregors

sonicfactory

Hmm.... does the following cause problems for the numerous unpacker utilities available for Blitz?

- If the game must unpack its resources to the hard drive, this must be done at installation time, not at the game's first run. Appropriate documentation must be provided to X so that the installer can be configured to unpack the game's resources. (This requirement is scheduled to take effect on March 1, 2007.)

Naughty Alien

..I hope I didnt purchase Molebox Pro just for looking on to it..

Gabriel

Hmm.... does the following cause problems for the numerous unpacker utilities available for Blitz?

In a word, yes. Any game which does that won't fit that criteria because Vista does not let programs write to anything but the Documents and Settings folders by default. ( It can be changed by the user, but the portals want to appeal to people who won't change their settings. )

Gabriel

It's not just Microsoft, BTW. I got one of these from BigFish months ago, and I don't think BigFish distribute through MSN.

bregors

sswift

"In a word, yes. Any game which does that won't fit that criteria because Vista does not let programs write to anything but the Documents and Settings folders by default."

WHAT?!

That's insane!

Does this mean every user on a PC now has to enter the registration code for an app so they can run it? Cause apparently the registry too is also now per user. That means there's nowhere for an app to store data that applies to all users. And that means you can't register an app in a way that it runs for every user on a PC. That being the case, each user would have to enter the registration code for each app themselves when they go to run it the first time!

On top of this, it means you can't unpack OGG files so that the program loads faster on subsequent loads as I'm doing now.

I don't know what other ramifications this has, but I'm sure there are many.

Rook Zimbabwe

#10

Vista... may not be as widely adapted as MS thinks... I still got a feeling this will be a fumble (red card)(if I have my soccer analogies right!)

Mustang

#11

Hmm.... does the following cause problems for the numerous unpacker utilities available for Blitz?

- If the game must unpack its resources to the hard drive, this must be done at installation time, not at the game's first run. Appropriate documentation must be provided to X so that the installer can be configured to unpack the game's resources. (This requirement is scheduled to take effect on March 1, 2007.)

Naughty Alien

..I hope I didnt purchase Molebox Pro just for looking on to it..

MoleBox doesn't unpack to hard drive IMO so it should be okay. But it will be "fun" to see how Blitz3D copes with the rest of the list, like the icon. Can I change the default icon to a bigger one? I don't think that B3D has 256-sized (Vista-icon) icon at all. And just what is UAC???

VIP3R

#12

@Mustang: From the DirectX SDK technical articles...

The User Account Control for Game Developers article discusses the User Account Control (UAC) security feature, introduced in Windows Vista. This article describes the guidelines and best practices for game developers to work effectively with the UAC security feature.

Indiepath

#13

Vista does not let programs write to anything but the Documents and Settings folders by default.

Unless you use the SaveAs dialog.

Tricky

#14

Who do the guys at MicroSoft think they are?
I mean, there's more than just documents that may need to be saved. What about swap-files for example? A few projects of mine are so big that I used swap files to prevent too much memory to be taken up, and also for some better organisation for the project in general. MicroSoft has hereby killed my project if you can only write to those specific folders....

Typically MicroSoft to force people into things that would scare people away from Windows. I really hate it that MicroSoft can get away by bullying people around like that.

Foppy

#15

Don't be so negative! OK, so your games won't run on the new Windows, but.. you get shiny buttons!

;)

LarsG

#16

It'll probably blow over...

Grey Alien

#17

"In a word, yes. Any game which does that won't fit that criteria because Vista does not let programs write to anything but the Documents and Settings folders by default."

OMG, so like I can't have an ini file and a high score table in the game folder!? Is that what that really means, if so it stinks.

Whats's galling is I get this email 8 days before 2007, and they'll pull my games on 1st Jan, nice! Thanks for the heads up.

Steve Elliott

#18

Microsoft expects widespread adoption of the new system to occur more quickly than any OS release in the company’s history.

Arrogant or what? I think they'll be disappointed.

bregors

#19

Gabriel

#20

OMG, so like I can't have an ini file and a high score table in the game folder!? Is that what that really means, if so it stinks.

Yes, you need to put it in Documents and Settings/My Documents/All Users/Application Data/Grey Alien Games/Holiday Bonus or something like that instead, I guess. I've not actually tried Vista, but that's my understanding from all that I've read.

Completely agree that it's unacceptable to give you such little notice.

Tricky

#21

I can solve this problem if Blitz does support some kinds of vars, but I couldn't find it in the help files.

Something like a function that always returns the location of the "My Documents" folder. This is important due to the a. User specific folders, and b. Some folders are renamed in translated versions of Windows. If Blitz has a function that does something like that, I'd be saved.

FlameDuck

#22

Arrogant or what? I think they'll be disappointed.

I would tend to agree. Vista doesn't seem to offer anything new.

Sashnil

#23

OMG it's the end of the world!!! C'mon!!

No one is forcing you to do anything, it's MS's distrib site, if you don't agree with their policies, use other channels.

Naughty Alien

#24

..I'm going to love my G5 tonight..

yoko

#25

OMG, so like I can't have an ini file and a high score table in the game folder!? Is that what that really means, if so it stinks.

Then how do BlitzMax generate compiled EXE?

How to tweak that, may those with Vista know how to do this?

EdzUp[SD]

#26

im not too bothered really, mainly because M$ have changed the systems over the years and always tried to introduce something new. They always normally have to release something later that will change it back again due to complaints anyways.

Gabriel

#27

Then how do BlitzMax generate compiled EXE?

You'll turn off the secure mode, or whatever it's called and it'll be just the same as it is now.

Grey Alien

#28

yeah thanks god, cos I like to have my stuff in a BlitzMax folder on the root drive, not in some crappy long winded folder name.

AdrianT

#29

I like the way games for windows are installed and set up in vista. But I don't approve of the same restrictions with apps.

I installed company of heroes in my vista partition and the my games list thing was pretty cool with quite a few options avaliable from the games icon.

A big improvement over desktop icons for seperate things like game web page, community forums, game updates etc.

Peter Scheutz

#30

Stop whining, start using GetSpecialFolder()

http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=45722#510090

John J.

#31

In a word, yes. Any game which does that won't fit that criteria because Vista does not let programs write to anything but the Documents and Settings folders by default.

That is crazy. That means that the game engine I'm working on won't work because it generates it's own impostor textures and saves them to a folder for faster loading times later.

Barnabius

#32

If you think the game requirements are problematic wait till you read this:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

Barney

Yan

#33

What's wrong with reading the environment variables?

John J.

#34

I think that if Vista is trying to keep everything organized by forcing applications to keep their data in a certain place, that's not too much of a problem. Just as long as it's categorization makes sense, and it does let you put your run-time data somewhere.

Peter Scheutz

#35

That is crazy. That means that the game engine I'm working on won't work because it generates it's own impostor textures and saves them to a folder for faster loading times later.

Again: What is the problem with using GetSpecialFolder() ?

http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=45722#510090

bregors

#36

John J.

#37

Again: What is the problem with using GetSpecialFolder() ?

Again: I think that if Vista is trying to keep everything organized by forcing applications to keep their data in a certain place, that's not too much of a problem. Just as long as it's categorization makes sense, and it does let you put your run-time data somewhere.

BrEgOrS: Wow, I had no idea Vista was like that! That is absolutely ridiculous.

bregors

#38

Milky Joe

#39

You'll turn off the secure mode, or whatever it's called and it'll be just the same as it is now.

That's exactly what I've done.

bregors

#40

Hotcakes

#41

Anyone know how "Vista ready" Blitz Max is?

It's perfect. It's still up to the coder (ie you) to follow some of Microsoft's guidelines, but if you stick to them you will have no problems with Vista, 32 or 64 bit. I don't think you are required to get Vista. So long as you follow those guidelines, you can for the most part assume that everything will be fine. If that site comes back and says it doesn't work, then you can start worrying =]

How would this effect apps that incbin all resources into one EXE? Wouldn't they be immune to some of the installer demands?

Yes, that was what I was going to suggest.

Does this mean every user on a PC now has to enter the registration code for an app so they can run it?

That sort of thing should be done during the installation process. In any case, there's always the All Users folders...

so like I can't have an ini file and a high score table in the game folder!?

So if the ini file is like config information it might be nice to have that on a per person basis. The All Users sections is the perfect place for the high score info.

Vista doesn't seem to offer anything new.

There are some solid new security and stability features, but nothing worthwhile jumping from XP for. If you buy a new computer, sure.

How to tweak that, may those with Vista know how to do this?

I believe the current workarounds involve either moving your project to My Documents, or turning UAC off - ie the Max -compiler system- is not Vista ready. But no show stoppers.

it does let you put your run-time data somewhere.

There is an equivalent to Local Settings/Temp in Vista, best bet would be to get the Temp dir path from the OS.

Hey Bobby Ball, when you turned that off, did you have to look at 30 warning ballons and answer 100 "Your system may be at risk! Are you sure you wish to proceed?" dialogs?

No, just the one balloon. That can be remedied by clicking on it, then turning off the notifications in Security Center.

bregors

#42

bregors

#43

Wings

#44

"- If the game must unpack its resources to the hard drive, this must be done at installation time, not at the game's first run."

LOL for Steam and no World Of warcraft... Hmm Good i buy vista :)

smilertoo

#45

These are just requirements to get a suitable for Vista stamp, feel free to do as you like though.

jfk EO-11110

#46

BTW here's an example for GetSpecialFolder for BLitz3D:
http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=65905

simply use a FOR loop with the ID ($16 in the example) to get a list of special folders...

Tricky

#47

I've tried GetSpecialFolder in BMax and it works perfectly.
So that's a huge problem solved.

But for the rest. It looks like MicroSoft is gonna own your computer and you are allowed to use it. I hate that kind of policy for many reasons. Wanna be my own boss y'know.

Grey Alien

#48

I'll add it to my framework to do. - Make Vista Compatible.

Hotcakes

#49

Are you running Vista 32or 64

I was running 32 bit during the beta/release candidate days. Now that nothing new and interesting is coming out anymore I've switched back to XP so I can use my GeForce 6600 again. Stupid Vista.

Anyways, Vista 64 is to XP 64 as Vista 32 is to XP 32. I havn't seen many complaints about Max on XP64, so the transition to Vista for those coders will be much the same.

Jeremy Paxman - Yeeeeeeeees

#50

theres nothing for other countries to worry about they can use freeBSD solaris or one of the many other operating systems available

Doiron

#51

It has already been discussed if BlitzMax is compliant to the guidelines provided in the first post.

Can anyone confirm if Blitz3D as well is compliant to the guidelines provided, and expecially if the compiled executables can be run on a 64bit environment? It would be dreadful to be cut off from some or most of the major portals for such a reason.

The UAC issue looks quite painful as well, expecially if you wanted all the game media packed into a .dat file using the available packers. Does anyone know if the restriction applies to any file being *modified* other than created/deleted?

Hotcakes

#52

I would assume so. The whole premise is to stop malware from hijacking security programs with nasty code etc.

I didn't test much, but B3D programs (at least in 3D mode) seemed to work fine in Vista when I tested it. Again, I've never heard any complaints about B3D on XP64? So I doubt there would be too many problems. The biggest issue for B3D games is the ones that use those packer routines, as you said. Unless they use the temp dir, not the current dir, they could very easily fail.

RAM Digital Media

#53

Well, that's weirdsville... What are you going to do about that one??? I, for one, don't see how that's gonna be possible if there's 30 days in between Win XP and Vista...

Hotcakes

#54

It does seem like a pretty unreasonable demand, though if it is a MS-run site, they have expected all their developers to follow their guidelines since 2000, so...

RAM Digital Media

#55

Well, sorry to bump the thread, but I'm still hoping that Microsoft will at least have a "try before you buy" deal to see if you'll actually LIKE Vista before plunging those few hundred bucks into the full deal.

AdrianT

#56

You can use it for a few days without a licence key thing if you want.

RAM Digital Media

#57

Sure, either that, or pop into a Best Buy to see if there's a demo kiosk set up somewhere...

Grey Alien

#58

The email wasn't directly from MSN, but from a BIG distributor that puts games on MSN and other portals.

Hotcakes

#59

I'm still hoping that Microsoft will at least have a "try before you buy" deal to see if you'll actually LIKE Vista before plunging those few hundred bucks into the full deal.

I don't know for sure, but it's extremely possible - Vista allows you to install the OS (fully functional) without a cd key or activation for 30 days. It's just a matter of getting your hands on the DVD.

The email wasn't directly from MSN, but from a BIG distributor that puts games on MSN and other portals.

You can be sure that those requirements are a direct push from MS onto them, then. Vista makes using the OS special dirs compulsory - something MS have been trying to push for 7 years now. It's why companies like EA have been saving their external datas to the My Documents folder for some time now.

Doiron

#60

I didn't test much, but B3D programs (at least in 3D mode) seemed to work fine in Vista when I tested it. Again, I've never heard any complaints about B3D on XP64? So I doubt there would be too many problems.

On the other hand there shouldn't be many Blitz3D developers running XP64, since it is an OS used mainly for specific purposes (such as 3D graphics). Users playing with B3D games at the moment are most likely using a 32bit environment as well. The gain in precision/speed is visible only with certain apps and it is an OS which retains incompatibilities with many applications, so I was wondering if B3D works with it (surely it should, but there is anyone on this board who ever tried it?).