Blitz or DarkBasic, your view?

Title of this topic isnt really what I'm after, well, I'm not after a BB v DB thread... Read on:-

I've been looking at DarkBasic Professional, and the game creators website, and I'm fairly impressed with what they have got over there.

Anyway, if you program in DB and BB, whats your view on DarkBasic?

Bearing in mind that 3D lovelyness isnt my main priority, just a quick run down on the quirks/pluses/minus's of DarkBasic will do.

Thanks

Dabz

Dark Basic is still very buggy, I have given up on it.

I am still messing with BB3D, and it still rocks for me.

I think BB3D is a perfect beginners program, as this forum has tons of help and code downloads, and you can get Maplet free.

TGC don't give away anything for free.

Just been checking out REALbasic, that looks okay from what I've read... Downloading demo now

Dabz

DB, I find, has a somewhat archaic syntax, compared to Blitz3d. The language has power, and is ready for Vista /DirectX 10.

The add-on packs, although they cost, do generally represent value for money. In particular, the DarkPhysics, DarkAI and ConvSEO (Sketchup) modules represent good value. Other modules, such as DarkLights, EZ-Rotate etc. are also quite good.

As Aoneweb noted, you don't get these add-ons for free. However, they make programming games that much easier.

I prefer Blitz for the syntax and general well-rounded nature of the language (DB feels pretty patchy); I use DB, though, for my new racing game.

Neil

I thoroughly dislike the syntax, but it's powerful and easy to use. I tried it out again recently to get my HLSL shaders running in a real demo. Took me about an hour to refamiliarize myself with the language, figure out how shaders work and write a normal mapping demo. I reckon that's pretty good. And the image quality was high, much higher than I remember from DB Pro. Things have improved. With a sane syntax and BMax-style language improvements, I'd seriously consider it over anything. As it is, I'd still probably take it over B3D, even if it meant writing my own little preprocessor to convert SaneBasic Pro code ( which would be my invention ) to DB Pro syntax.

I used to use DBPro before I found out about Blitz3D. Here are some of the Pros and Cons of Blitz vs. DBPro: (pros indicated by "+", cons indicated by "-")

DBPro:
+ Ongoing support / upgrades / improvements / newsletters
+ DX9 & shader support
+ Coming DX10 and Vista support
+ Some free modules
+ Easy to get a project up and running quickly
+ More features than Blitz3D
- Buggy and slow
- Not as much low-level control as Blitz3D (texture layers, for example, are rather tedious)

Blitz3D:
+ Very powerful language and commandset
+ Well designed entity/mesh/brush/texture/etc. interfaces (very intuitive, once you get used to it)
+ Fast (especially with your own scene management)
- Not much support, other than occasional bug-fixes
- DX7 only
- No off-topic forum


Personally, I would not recommend DBPro. Although DBPro is being constantly updated, after many years of development it's still buggy and slow. Nobody wants to make a game that's buggy and slow; then you're at the mercy of TGC if one of your customers reports a vital bug which happens to be DBPro's fault, not yours.

[Slightly Off-topic:]
If shader support is necessary to you, I would recommend looking into another engine, preferably Ogre. Ogre has the features of an $100,000 AAA engine, even though it's completely free. However, I wouldn't recommend Ogre unless you have a full understanding of C++ and OOP.

Would be so great to have a (game)language with shader support - together with B3D speed, stability and well thought out syntax. I'm starting to want more than B3D can deliver graphically but there really isn't much choice really because I don't want to learn C-whatever. GameBench looked very promising but that didn't happen, sadly.

I'm going to give a few demos a whirl today, darkbasic being one of them. Though I downloaded the DarkAI demo and that seems interesting, the only part of the demo which I felt looked pappy is when your mates follow you, it looked like they were on rails (well, technically they are, but you know what I mean)

As 2D gaming goes, whats your view, as well as intergrating net play?

Oh, and has anyone bought their books?

There's been some pretty good answers here, which lean me towards actually purchasing it, but a few more will do! :)

Dabz

BlitzMax simply due to the language, concept, crossplatform availability. Both Blitz3D and Dark Basic are horrible due to different reasons in my opinion.

DBPro may well be feature-rich but features = complexity and complexity = poor compatibilty. Blitz3D may not support shaders and all that jazz but at least it works on pretty much any computer with a 3d card and does not require a massive DIrectX9.0c (December 2005) download to play a game.

DBPro is horrible. It has rediculous syntax, and is woefully unstable. At my old office we used to have two presumably identical Alienware computers. DBPro games would run on one, but not the other.

Sure it has more features than you can shake a stick at. But the horrible syntax and compatibility issues simply aren't worth it IMHO.

DBPro still needs lots of work, the main thing here is its updated reguarly. Blitz3d still also needs work there are still things that people have been requesting for ages that still havent made it in a newer version of DirectX was requested years ago and still to no avail.

IMHO BlitzMax is the way forward, if you dont like something you have the availability to change it, the only limitation is your coding expertise.

yeah, I'm looking at the syntax now, and it is a bit 'odd'

I'm looking at this section of DB code:-

type linetype                                      `Type For Each Line Segment Of Ground
   p1 as float                                     `X Position 1
   p2 as float                                     `Y Position 1
   p3 as float                                     `X Position 2
   p4 as float                                     `Y Position 2
endtype

type trail                                         `Type For Smoke Circle
   tX as float                                     `x Coord
   tY as float                                     `Y Coord
   life as integer                                 `Life Of "Particle"
   size as float                                   `Size of "Particle"
endtype

global dim ground(10) as linetype                `Create Array Of Line Segments To Define Ground
global dim vapor(30) as trail                      `Create Array Of Smoke Trail Circles

for n=1 to 30 step 1                               `Fill In Smoke Array With Starter Variables
   vapor(n-1).life=0
   vapor(n-1).size=3
next n

And, to me, it looks pretty painless!

Though, I'm still researching! :)

Dabz

The real opponent of Blitz is PureBasic... except OO and 3D part, PureBasic has good stability and speed, and tiny EXE size, now they're upgeading the Linux Build to 4.0 which can be a big hit when done..

Well, I'm sure there are people who prefer DB syntax for whatever reasons. I'm just not one of them.

global dim ground(10) as linetype
vs.
Global ground:linetype[10]

No contest.

A line from some code in DarkBasic Pro:

center text object screen x(obj),object screen y(obj)-40,entitydebug$(e)

Its difficult to tell where one command ends and the other begins without looking at the builtin command reference.

BB is more versitile as a language but db has dx9 support etc.
However Blitz max cannot be compared to B3D or DB cos its more like C++ than basic.

I think the only thing that annoys me about bb is the lack of strict variable declarations as its easy to spend an afternoon debugging a spelling mistake!!

Otherwise it rocks.

True. When I made games in DBPro, they always seemed to get more and more difficult to read as the gain complexity, because of this.


That is also one of my main reasons for not using DBPro. It's compatibility almost seems random. In fact, in a competition entry I entered into the DBPro AlienWare competition, all semi-transparent objects in my game completely disappeared on their own testing computers, resulting in confusion and no chance for me to win (the waypoint markers were transparent).

One of the least things I want to worry about is random errors and bugs popping up on people's computers for unknown reasons (like the two AlienWare computers FlameDuck described). This is why I stick to Blitz3D/Ogre/many other fairly stable engines.

From Bmax

Apply_Motion cmot,0,camera Apply_Motion b1mot,0,mesh_bird,180 Apply_Motion b2mot,0,mesh_bird2,180 fstep# 

What you do is only put one command per line. Unless you are entering the DBPro 20 line program competition

That's 3 seperate commands on one line (would that even compile?) The DBPro example that Azathoth gave was a single compound statement:

center text object screen x(obj),object screen y(obj)-40,entitydebug$(e)

The BlitzMax equivelant of this might read like this:

CenterText obj.ScreenX(), obj.ScreenY()-40, obj.DebugInfo()

IMO, BlitzMax's style is much more readible. Even though you do get used to DBPro's style after a while, you can frequently get mixed up if. For example, if there are the commands "center text", "object screen x", and "text object", how would you interpret the above DBPro example where it says "center text object screen x". Of course, with a little common sense you can work it out quite easily; however, programming languages are supposed to be entirely precise - no guess work regarding the syntax should ever be an issue.

Was it? oh sorry, I missunderstood, I thought it was several commands on one line.

Yep, as long as you avoid commands with default parameter values ie "Graphics", then the compiler knows that eacvh command is finished

The example line I used was from the FPSC engine source code, with the command hilighting 'center text object screen x' appears as one command when infact 'object screen x' returning the first parameter for 'center text'.

Apply_Motion cmot,0,camera Apply_Motion b1mot,0,mesh_bird,180 Apply_Motion b2mot,0,mesh_bird2,180 fstep#

Are you sure thats valid Blitzmax syntax? I mean how is '180 Apply_Motion b2mot' passed as a parameter?

Post of the busg in DBPro, have, contrary to previous posts, have been fixed. In addition, as long as you use the latest updates, its all pretty stable.

There are many alternative IDE's if you dont like the standard one - some are pretty good.

You do need to make sure your computer is up-to-date with everything. Everything is the important part. I've had no problems with people running my programs, once they made sure that they had the very latest version of their graphics drivers and DirectX - why they never had them to start with, I will never know.

The only real downside is the resulting executables are inefficient, resulting in slower (than should be) code.

In addition, the testing quality is variable. I had thought that they would always release beta versions of updates after I had a moan, but unfortunately that wasn't the case. So a fix that's in one update could be back to being bugged in another update.

If you need a routine that isn't available, and you cant afford a plug-in, there is usually a free version around - databases, speech, ZLib, LUA etc etc

Yes, I must admit I prefer DBPro over BlitzMax (the syntax for the latter is just wierd, especially with memory access) - unfortunately DBPro isn't availiable for the Mac...

DBPro is designed for game programming where BlitzMax is general (ie. anything made in DBPro requires DirectX and the exe contains this unneed code).
How is memory access weird in BlitzMax? Looks pretty much like C/C++ to me minus the '*' operator.

Well... it isnt a parameter. 180 is the last parameter of apply_motion, the command is then finished, so the compiler knows that the next thing is a new command.

But Glad it proved my point abnout how Bmax can be just as confusing. ;)

Blitz has been quite easy. Dark Basic can be a pain in the butt, especially DB Pro. Visual Basic is rather decent, I've been big into "point-and-click" stuff with VB 6.0 and somewhat of VB 2005, even tho 6.0 is better for me, that .NET structure gives me headaches to work around. As far as everything else, Blitz and Visual Basics are my two favorites, at the current moment.

It is the point of DBPro - a game making language... Its not unneeded if its needed...

And if you dont want to use DBPro, there is the much quicker GSDK, for use with C/C++/.Net/Sharp/VB/VB .Net...

Quoted for truth.

Much of the "information" in this thread is very out of date. I've said the same things in the past because it was true. It's not true any more. I'm not saying it's perfect because I'm sure it's not. Neither is B3D, that still has issues from time to time.

But DB Pro is much, much closer to B3D in terms of stability and compatibility than it ever used to be. If you own it and don't use it, I urge you to have a play. Just for fun, because most of us like to code for fun as well as for profit even if we do code for profit, right?

The syntax is still more than a little hinky, and it sure doesn't compare to BMax in terms of language power, but in most other ways it's massively improved and compares favourably with B3D. There are a couple of nice IDE's too. Note quite Blide, but not kicking the beam end off either.

I've played around with the demo and it seems okay, as a lot of people mentioned, the syntax is quirky, but even with that, it seems like a decent enough language to have a go with! :)

I've also followed a few tutorials, granted they are basic ones like 'how to draw/move a cube' etc etc

As gabs says, there's nothing wrong with having a play, just to see what something has to offer...

Dabz

Wonder if anyone spotted my spelling mistakes?

Dont worry, it was just a forum busg! ;)

Dabz

Are entities still numbered? I hated that.

Probably my biggest gripe about DBPro is the inability to have arrays within types. It's an absolute killer for someone who is moving towards OO programming from other languages (BMax, C#, QT, VB). You can fudge around it (kinda) by using memblocks and big global arrays, but any chance of following logic goes out the window in this situation.

I've had to basically throw out a fair bit of programming experience in order to think back to a glorified ZX 81 syntax. It's a bit painful, but once you put aside the OO mindset, it's not so bad.

There's some excellent books on DBPro available. I've ordered Hands On Dark Basic Programming Vols 1 and 2, because the extracts are so good. Expensive, but hey; a reference book is always a good investment.

I've been playing with the Dark Physics module over the weekend, and getting a car to slide around in a Sketchup model. This is nothing I couldn't have achieved by myself in B3D or BMax, but it was easier to buy a physics module than write one. The module is also supported by the people who wrote it (all the developers are reasonably active within the forums).

As for the commend about needing a mammoth DX9 download... that's true if you want to develop applications; to run appliations, a standard web install from the DirectX homepage suffices.

@Sledge,

Yes... although an add-on pack sorta-kinda addresses that issue by auto-numbering objects.

This is what ';' does, it allows one line to be treated as multiple lines. What compiler are you using? Mine doesn't allow the syntax you used.

Non-valid syntax tends to be confusing.

Years ago, I did a plug-in that would all DBPro objects, sprites etc etc to be called by using a text name, with almost no speed loss when converting between the name and an integer. But alas, no-one used it...


It is a pretty big one, and can be a pain - for some. However saying that, I prefer procedural languages over OOP, so it never affected me.


You must be pretty good at physics then...

Exactly.


Either that or he used one of the freely avalible physics libraries for Blitz. Also, it probably wouldn't be too hard (just time consuming) to write a PhysX wrapper for Blitz3D. True, this isn't as easy as purchasing something like DarkPhysX, but personally, I wouldn't pay $90 for a wrapper of a free product.

Oh, its more than a wrapper...

It's far more than a wrapper. Go check out the PhysX API if you don't believe me. It's considerably more complicated than Tokamak, Newton and ODE. If you want to write your own wrapper for it, then I'm sure you can but you must not value your time very highly because it'll take a while to save that $90.

Actually... it's not $90. Dark Physics costs $41.99 and it costs $89.99 only if purchased together with DarkAI, which is another nifty add-on also worth the money they are asking. I would not mind paying for such add-ons for MBax or B3D if they were made or at least officially endorsed by BRL.

Barney

No offence to Mark but I have way more faith in the DBPro product line, just look at the past year with all the updates and addons they released.

Now look at newsletter 47 and see what's coming for DirectX10 and Vista with DBPro.

On Blitzresearch, there is such a thing as too quiet!
I own both products and although I really like bmax's syntax, i'm not ready to sit idle in the hopes off x feature / product update..etc.

I want to use something that has the features now and for the price, for me, DBP is it.

my 2.5 cents.

I have used both, but those saying DBPro is buggy or has compatiblity issues have not been using the latest version. Very solid overall (IDE BLOWs, but nice 3rd party ones out there). Its fast (now) and is updated often.

BRL hasnt updated B3d and it is doubtful we will see MAX 3D anytime.

Really there is only one choice unless you move to a Torque product

If you meant anytime soon I say you may be right. If you meant anytime period, I would wager a decent sum you're wrong.

If you are new to DBPro, I'd recommend their "Hands On DarkBasic Pro" Volumes 1 and 2, these manuals are very handy and useful than the paltry help files provided with DBPro.

@Nomen Luni - yep your correct, Im recovering from the weekend still..

@ DoDo - yes those books are great.. at least the first one.. I am waiting on the 2nd one..

I very much doubt it - after all, Mark has said, that the official line for the a 3D module should be 'what 3D module?'...


The problem with that is that various areas that need updating get left behind - the GSDK needs a serious update, for example...

If BRL was like TGC, MArk would buy/liecence greys framework and swifts sprite system, and terred etc. And would sell them as BRL products.

BMAX has just as many addons ad BDPro, they just look more official for CBpro

I checked the DBPro page and it listed a rotation pack as an add on. Reading the description it sounds like the type of entity rotation that blitz has built right in. How is normal rotation done in DBPro, say for a parent object and it's children?

I'm with this guy!

B3D with strict variables and a new 3D engine would be heaven. Cobra didn't appear, so the only way to do updated graphics is to go BACK to DBP. I used to use DBP, I quite get on with half the community even now I keep in touch, and I do get on well with the TGC staff on the rare ocassions I still talk to them - but, I just preffer Blitz3D through and through. It's more logical to return an entityID when you create it in Blitz than DBP's numerically assigned value

myPlayer=loadMesh("")

versus

const myPlayer 1
load object "",myPlayer


Once I understood it I found rotation easy in DBP, I never found the need for EZrotate so the rotation question was never an issue for me. It isn't 'end user beginner easy' though, it's EULER rotations, and that's why EZrotate exists.

BMax isn't a shadow on B3D in my personal opinion either, I have to use BMax a lot now for Mac stuff but I spend most of the time reading the help and trying to figure out how to think 'off the wall', finding a command name sometimes is dependant on whether a crow is flying West at a given longditude at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. I was looking how to execute a remote app earlier, "OpenURL" apparently does it ... took me a while to figure that out... Talk about 'higher plane' of thinking..! :) The lack of a 3D engine is a fundamental issue too, as well as the cackhandedness of using it.

PureBASIC is great for applications, compile a .dll or make a little GUI app in no time - it is to apps what B3D is to games.

RealBASIC I got as far as the editor, didn't understand what I was looking at, and decided against it (if I wanted to think like Microsoft i'd use Visual Studio).

VisualBASIC thinks like Microsoft. You're better off learning C++ than Visual Basic. It's an utterly pointless attempt at 'simplifying' programming because it's been Microsomplicated in the process.

And to further stick the nail in the coffin of BMax... I just found the command I spent 2 hours looking for yesterday before giving up (AppArgs), although I was looking for a different command today ! lol... foxtrotting thing...

FPSC is the best language.





(If you want to make FPSs)

I do dislike RAD tools, which, aside from that (and the price), is why I'm not interested in Unity (or Torque).

So you prefer tools where you

a) have to imagine stuff by pure will of mind.
b) can spend some more time till finishing a product.
c) tweaking a look is more difficult.
:

Ahh okay i see...

Erm, care to elaborate? I'm after information, not a,b,c's that simply (and pointlessly) lead to; Ahh okay i see...

Cheers

Dabz

.

cheers BrEgOrS

Just wondered what he was going on about! :)

Dabz

Quite simple: He dislikes RAD tools. As far as i know RAD stands for Rapid Application Development. Although i suspect that's not exatcly what he wanted to target i guess he was after the IDE as at least speaking for unity this one offers an IDE where you can build, arrange, tweak a scene or add behaviours like code scripts or physics behaviours beside of pure coding, which again leads to a more flexible approach and for certain tasks easier handling and so faster dev process...

Gotcha now taumel... To be honest, I never had a clue what you were talking about a couple of topics up! I didnt know if it was pointed a DB or what! lol

Thanks

Dabz

Uhh sorry no problem. I thought it was obvious... :O)

By RAD, I meant where most of the programming is removed, and whereby all you need to do is drag & drop to make a game. That sort of thing, unfortunately, takes away most of the fun of programming, and could be quite limiting.

I like to control everything, from level design to music used (and when). I also like to control the 3D engine as much as possible (or in BM case the 2D engine).

I dont particularly want a program to decide that I cant have something just because the culling system would slow the program down.

Some of us where there back when it was just DarkBasic, and where users got screwed over.

Mr. Bamber promised many things in DB, and after the promises, and lack of delivery, he then turned around and released them as paid addons and what not...

The big one I remember was Mesh Deformation (hell, just low level access to the mesh arcitecure). Remember when he released that mesh deformation demo? No one?
Well, he released a demo saying "mesh deformation is in, check it out, coming with next update", and he released a bobofett demo of bobo fett turning at the waist... (everyone questioned why the demo was a 24mb file)

After a few months, and no update, he released the code, which turned out that he had 30 some meshes that he loaded, and just switched between the meshes (no actual vertex manipulation taking place).

Many left (including me) because that was a flat out lie! Later, DBPro was announced. The planned features for DBPro included all of the features that were promised in DB. when I say promised, I mean in the product page it said "the following will be included in free updates". I just happen to stumble upon BlitzBasic (following the link, and noticing that in Sept of that year they were planning to release B3D). I was pleasantly pleased by the ease of the language (compared to the hack that which is DarkBasic).

There were many times where I just coded myself into a wall with DB because of the language limitations and overall clutter of the language itself.

In Conclusion
I'm sorry, you can say Mark needs to do this, and he doesnt do that, but in my many years here, he has never boldly lied about his product. He has never truely screwed me like the DB team (and the Devil himself Mr Lee Bamber and Co.) did...

Which is why I don't quickly jump the gun to invest in stuff. Which is why I wouldnt buy Ant's little engine, which is why I dont blame those who feel screwed by him.... It boils down to reputation!

Blitz:
I know that the next B3D update is way off.
I know that the Max3D is way off (if at all).
I know if a bug is found in B3D it will be fixed.
I know I can create a fully playable game with any blitz product.

DB:
I know DBS will screw me any time I show them a dollar bill.
I know the language will suck ballz and that I will have to keep a handgun by the computer just to end my life when trying to do anything semi-complex.
I know that the language will always be buggy because its a complete hack.
I know there will always will be new features (to pay for) sacrificing the language and it's stability.
I know everyone will quickly side with DB if they push out the gfx (just as PS3 and Xbox 360 bet on).

sorry, long post.

Oh than i might say that you've missed some point as you can do both in unity as a) it's possible to define those values in the IDE as well as b) accessing the objects properties by code.

As you were bringing up a camera's settings: http://unity3d.com/Documentation/ScriptReference/Camera.html

Hmm, I happen to like Mark's products. And what isn't there, isn't there.

...back to coding my realtime softbody system...

cya.

Dark Half - so you didn't try DBPro properly then ? Sounds like you didn't...

Taumel - I know you can, but then you need to learn the scripting language, and you still dont retain full control over everything. Plus the layout of Unity is a mess.

Tell me about what you would like to have control over exactly.

Beside of this i somehow agree. Unity isn't perfectly layed out. There are a lot of issues i would like to have in a different kind of way but on the other side it's available now, it's working and it's looking a lot better than the other ones i've looked at.

I like control over everything : Sprites, 3D objects, music, sounds, level design, graphic design, how levels are loaded, how hi-scores are saved, how networked games communicate, what OS I want to compile stuff on, how I want to implement protection, how data is stored, how the keyboard, mouse and joypads are handled,

I suggest you write your own engine? :O)

I like control where it does make sense to me and i like to get things done. Unity is very good for exactly that - although not perfect but which engine is?!

I would if I had interest in 3D mathematics - unfortunately its bores me stiff, hence the reason I use engines by other people... DBPro's one can be pretty good (and easy to use), but can suffer from Z fighting.

Don't need to. A crook is a crook regardless of how many "home security systems" he gives away for free.....

Besides, I have yet to see anything actually being developed over there (aside from hype).... The demos run like shit, they dont really show me anything I can't do other than entry level hobbiest stuff, it just doesnt impress me...

@dark Half,

Are you kidding me? entry level stuff????
Didn't know Aegia's physx module was entry level, I'm sure they would get a chuckle out of that.
Same with DarkAI.

But I don't want to get into a shooting match, you don't like DPB.. noted.. some love it.

*Giggle* Funniest thing I've heard all day...

a module is as good as the module can get, it doesnt get you past the weak points of the language.. besides, I dont see crap like that when I visit their page, I see basic demos, nothing spectacular


Yeah, watching that demo made me chuckle, watching an "AI DEMO" where the npcs are walking into walls..... just amazing...


DBP could be good, I dont know other than the opinions shared in this thread. However I am one of those "fool me once, shame on you..." guys where I will never buy a DB product again. And when I say never, I mean even if it cures cancer and I need a cure, I still wont buy it because they are known for utter buggy crap (and the fact that they will sell me the cure, and charge me additionally for the delivery means, and another charge for the packaging, oh and that cure was supposed to be safe... we're gonna have to have an 'paid for' update that makes it safe like we promised it).

But yeah, it's pointless to argue this topic, since I'm really bias about it. You can only tell people that someone is just going to keep screwing you before they plug their ears and bend over to your supprise.


Really? show me something good that came from DB? in fact, show me something good that uses all those features they are hyping?

Just like mechanics, a fancy engine is just an engine, if you dont put that into a vehicle, its still just an engine.

Dark Half,

You've actually hit upon one of the more disturbing things I find in the DB community: the (seeming) lack of projects. I look in the gallery here, and am routinely stunned, amazed, depressed, inspired and awed.

I see the screenshots for "Legends of Idhuriel", and am inspired because a single person did that. I see "Granada Racer" and get excited because I want to develop a game in that direction.

There is a developer community here that works on projects, and some even get them finished!

But over on the TGC forums, there is no gallery. What gallery there is, has graphical quailty that was left behind with Quake 1. The forums are full of exciting new projects, with screen shots that look like something done in MS Paint. Rarely, you find a project that actually looks good. Sometimes, you see support for that project. I found a racer that looked very impressive... and the comments in the thread are less than supportive. Yet, another thread announcing a new terrain engine (with the screenshot showing essentially a textured triangle with default lighting) is met with raptureous applause.

The language is capable enough now, with most of the bugs sorted out. The developer community doesn't feel as good as the community here. Having said that, there are those who are working on good stuff and are actively helping out. But the overall "feel" is that there are mostly 13yo's blowing smoke.

Precisely

There's plenty of good things that come from DB and DBPro - Mono is one of them, Dumbow and Cool is another (and was reviewed in PC Format). And then there are the Starwraith series of games; Mahjong (apparently uses one of my plug-ins). Just need to look...

Oooh, cant forget Sunday Drivers..

..bad artist/programmer complaining about tool, instead of using it in full power...Michealangelo Buonarotti, use to finish David with few ultraprimitive tools from one monolith stone block and polish surface on such a good way that lasers today cant polish surface like that...hand made..so pleasee..

Precisely

Well, after doing the rounds with demos, trail versions, etc etc, I've stumbled across something that I think I may enjoy learning... lol, something no one has mentioned and something that is accessable within Max... Well, it maybe not DirectX9 or DX10, it may mean I have to program in that horrible IDE that is MaxIDE (No flames, I've heard them before), yep, thats right, I'm talking about OpenGL! :)

I've been playing around, drawing shapes on the screen, basically just fannying about, and to me, its just like using another language... And I'm enjoying playing with it! And it seems a bit of a monster too! :)

Well, thanks for your help everyone, thankfully, I think I'll be quite content with OpenGL, but time will tell! ;)

Dabz

P.S. Okay, it may not be ground breaking, simply because I know diddly squat about 3D, and I want to learn, but this is my first GL program:-

Import brl.bmploader
Import brl.max2d
 
GLGraphics 640,480,32,60,BGL_BACKBUFFER | BGL_DEPTHBUFFER

glOrtho(0.0,1.0,0.0,1.0,-1.0,1.0)

While Not KeyHit( KEY_ESCAPE )
glClear GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT | GL_DEPTH_BUFFER_BIT
GLDrawText("Test",10,10)

glBegin(GL_POLYGON);
	glVertex3f(0.10,0.25,0.0)
	glVertex3f(0.75,0.25,0.0)
	glVertex3f(0.75,0.75,0.0)
	glVertex3f(0.10,0.75,0.0)
glEnd()
glFlush()
Flip 
Wend 

And the best bit is, I know everything about it! yay! :D

i dont like darkasic.
i tested the demo and:

- it does not support skinned aniamtions
- it has a fullscreen IDE (no use of other programs while using darkbasic)
- it does only support *.x format
- the 3d engine is ****
- loops are crapy slow because its an interpreter language

Welcome to the club!

there's a club? lol, do they sell Stella Artois at the bar? ;)

Dabz

DarkBasic is years old now...


There is an alternative non-full screen IDE availiable.


You only gave it 4 stars ? Or are you saying you dont like the 3D engine ? Seems like you were the only one - StarWraith et al were written in Classic (and are commerically availiable).


Speed would depend on which type of iteration command you used.

I'm getting the hang of this now:-

Import brl.bmploader
Import brl.max2d
 
GLGraphics 800,600,32,60,BGL_BACKBUFFER | BGL_DEPTHBUFFER

glOrtho(0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0)

While Not KeyHit( KEY_ESCAPE )
glClear GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT | GL_DEPTH_BUFFER_BIT
GLDrawText("Test",10,10)

glBegin(GL_POLYGON)
glVertex2f(0.0,0.0)
glVertex2f(0.5,0.0)
glVertex2f(0.75,0.25)
glVertex2f(0.5,0.5)
glVertex2f(0.0,0.5)
glVertex2f(-0.25,0.25)

glEnd()
glFlush()
Flip 
Wend 

Okay, dont laugh, I'm on a self-discovery (does that sound kinky)thing at the moment! hehehehe

How come I missed this OpenGL thing anyway?

Oh, GL_POINTS... I like that! :)

Dabz

P.S. Okay, I'll shut up now! :)

One reason I like B3D- its compatability is amazing. Whatever computer I use it on, it just works. Also, Sprite Candy is fantastic for 2D games. I find it hard to imagine a 2D game I couldn't develop in B3D with Sprite Candy.

Anyway, carry on ;)

laughs @MrTAToad, the "DBPro Poster-boy"....

"All hail Lee Bamber!!!"

/crowd roars

"Silence for the Bamber wishes to speak"

/crowd hushes

"Good people of independent hobbyist programming languages, we have an update, please give us your first born so that we may sacrifice him/her to our cause.... Oh, and we still don't have multi-texturing in yet as we promised, but it has parallax mapping, and it only runs on the following 3 PC specs which hath been assembled under the 3rd full moon during October. My will be done!"

And the village celebrated!

Ooh - I've found a BlitzBasic user with a sense of humour... There goes one of my preconceptions.

Oh, and multi-texturing is in...

You dont seem to have many winning arguments, do you ?

Well, when I started this thread, I was really pleased with all the non-baised information the forum was giving me... I should of known one or two would end up with a 'my knob's bigger than your knob' arguement!

It's two programming languages, both different for both bad and good reasons... which have been pointed out above... you's two just give over... nobody's knob is bigger!

Dabz

I was just pointing out the inaccuracies in many of the arguments against DBPro/DB 'Classic'/GSDK, which seem to pervade these forums...

I'll gladly admit to having a 'smaller than average' knob... Sorry.



I honestly don't care. I will never try DB again, oh well. Agruing with me on why they are worth anything significant when I have a closed minded view like that is rather pointless (wouldn't you say?).

I will always be there to be a nay-sayer of DB having been scorn by them. Which is why I don't blame those who crash all the "Welcome back Ant" threads..

I know MrTAToad, but its obviously going nowhere! :)

I've read your posts, and they are canny, but dont fall into the trap of arguing blue in the face with someone who actually isnt listening!

At the end of the day, I was listening, and your points are valid! So just leave it there, simply because if Dark Elf and others who aren't mature enough to listen to to you, or more mature coders like gabriel... Then they are a fool to themselves, and just let them get on with it!

Its about programming, not branding!

Dabz

Now why did you have to go there? Honestly?!?

Does being screwed over by someone and boycotting them make me less mature? Because I choose not to listen to his argument simply because I dislike the remote posiblity of DB being decent make me less mature (then you perhaps?)?

Think about what you say there before you start passing judgment on maturity buddy... I'm sure if you re-read what you said, you might find your foot in your mouth...

Well, screwed over or not... I've been screwed by BRL when buying Maplet then they released it for free, yes, they made a quick buck... though do you see me posting stuff like that above! Erm, no...

Your a fanboy Elf, its blatant, I aksed for information regarding DarkBasic, not some half arsed mini soap opera like the quote above!

Oh, and I'm not your buddy! Remember that, I dont know you, you dont know me!

Again, its about programming, not branding!

Dabz

*Skidracer, lock this thread please*

Apparently the maturity level (by those who choose to brand some mature or not), went down...

Yeah, well, good luck with DB buddy! We'll see you back here after ;-)

Don't worry, I'm done with this thread :-) I said my piece about what DB is worth.

Thankfully there is also an alternative to DB Pro. Certainly you see the absurdity of maintaining that DBPro is great, if you change all it's components by buying alternatives. By the time you're through buying all the things needed to make DBPro useful, you could've probably bought a small polish programming team and an Unreal Engine license.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. By the way, it's probably not a good idea to be insulting Blitz users on BRLs forum. Just FYI.

How is that the same as being screwed over? How is that even the same as buying DB on the pretence that they will add whatever functionality you want as an update to be released in two weeks, and when they finally do implement it 18 months later, with your project completely derailed in the interim, it's as part of an 'upgrade' which has 99% junk you wouldn't use if someone put a gun to your head, yet they're still charging 40 quid for it?

At least, BRL will give you a no fuss refund if you feel cheated. You might aswell try holding the tide back than getting so much as a cent back from TGC, when they've just sold you the third upgrade in a row, that's fucking broken.

Which is a somewhat ironic comment, considering TGC are good at branding, and BRL is good at developing programming languages. Wouldn't you agree?

As I see it yes, but I couldnt give a monkeys about the branding, I want to know about the programming side of DarkBasic... People have said it's tosh, people have said it's okay... After all that information, I personally think its worth a go!



now now flameduck, you know skidracer doesnt like cursing on the forums, people have been banned, or been told to move on for less! ;)

Dabz

I think its a bit rude to have this kind of discussion on BRL's own forum given that DBPro is one of its main competitors. If you want to know more about DBPro then surely the question should be raised on the DB forum or an independant one like SyntaxBomb or DevCrunch !

And whos doing the insulting then ?


And people dont with Blitz ? So the talk of alternative IDE's are just products of my imagination then ? What about alternative sprite systems ?


I believe TGC are quite willing to give refunds - as for your last part : Prove it.

Whilst its okay not to like DBPro, valid and up-to-date reasons need to be given, not ones based on the program 5 years ago.

It's raised on there forum too Ricky, though, I wanted to see what Blitz users thought... lol, which seemed okay for a couple of days, then it turned to dog muck! :)

Dabz

It always does... Its why this sort of thing was stamped on straight away in the DBPro forums...

Precisely!


What did you think a blitz user would think?
You haven't been around here enough to know that:
A. the majority of the users here are former DB users
B. Blitz is a competing product.

Think before you post


Actually they aren't. I bought a TGC tool (some texture tool) that you could only partially demo. I needed it for spherical wrapping of textures. It worked in their demo (but didnt allow me to save). I purchased, and found they used some wacky mapping (def not blit'z or 3ds Max's), and the textures never fit right at all. They wouldn't refund, and they stood their ground on it. I had to file a claim with my CC company to get my 40 bucks back.

Dark Half, there are Blitz users out there that do actually have experience in a variety of languages, not just Blitz Basic.



I'd say five years is long enough... wouldnt you?



Well I never would have guessed, that may have something to do with why I'm asking!



So is Visual Studio, PureBasic or even Visual Studio Express Editions... It doesnt stop people talking about them



I offer the very same advice to you!

Dabz

Fair enough, although I do know people have had refunds.

Well said Ricky! I've lost count of the number of B3d vs DP threads which have turned to s**t over the years! It was entertaining while it lasted though :)

p.s. For the record my knob is the proverbial babies arm! Do I win a prize?

You asked....

Besides, I wouldn't say that PureBasic directly competes with blitz3d at all.



Arg.. You know your right, I just pretend to know other languages and tools... My bad...

I have to question my sanity at this point to argue with you further.

However a notable point is that you asked that question, and the only one defending DB is MrTAToad in this whole thread. All the rest of the posts point to a buggy yet arcaic language. Yet you have made up your mind to go with the mainority, after asking in a competing forum.... The choice is yours, I suggest you drop the topic now, Buy DBPro, and prove us all wrong.

Yeah, a free snooker cue case to put it in! :D

Dabz

I wasn't defending DBPro - I pointed out its pro's & cons, based on personal experience of the current product, and not of one 5 years ago (and which are thus inaccurate to a large degree); nor of general sweeping statements.

It does have problems - more so when it first came out. However, by and large its solved them.

I'd agree that the latest version of DBPro is quite good but since I enjoy 2D graphics I think B3D+Sprite Candy or BMax+GrayAlien's Framework are better choices. For 3D I prefer C#+ManagedDX, by far the easiest solution and pretty much secure investment regarding the near future of Windows.

Having said that, I am looking closely at TGC and their first entry into DX10 arena, which should be out soon i.e. their FPC system.

Barney

My posts do not point to a buggy yet archaic language. Quite the opposite.


And that's why the problems start. It's not about right and wrong, and it never was.


Yes, it's a shame people can't see past their "religious devotion" to a particular programming language and just discuss the options on their merits. I don't think it has anything to do with competing products though. The debates about games consoles are just the same.

@Barnabius,

C# + ManagedDX, whilst an easy and nice soution, has a big performance gap compared to a compiled language. There another thread on it in the forumns right now.

What are most people here going to do with most of these features? Fancy shaders and the like. How many people hear have completed a game, in 3d, that would benefit from them? How many people here have completed a 3d game? I know i haven't yet. Texture compression was a very nifty feature, but i think getting a game finished is the most important thing :o)

@neilo

Yeah. I've seen that thread and I've seen many such threads elsewhere and I've learned one thing. A lot of people tend to use the words like "big" and "large" completely out of context and without any disregard to the actual measurable difference. I tend to use such words with caution and judging from my experience so far the speed loss is far from being "big". In most cases it is rather small and more than compensated by the speed of development C# Express is giving me.

Barney

I have : AtomZ, BallZ and Humans On A Planet (although the latter does need a few more graphical touches to it - which I'm not going to do now).