Max3D news etc...

Hi all,

As a few eagle eyed readers will have noticed, Max3D isn't out yet.

The reasons for this are many and varied, but the bottom line is really just that it is proving harder to create an 'easy to use', next-gen engine than I originally thought.

There are bits in the there I am very happy with, bits I am not so happy with, and bits that suck. Worse, there are bits missing but I'm not quite sure what those bits look like yet.

I have also been spending more time on the core of BlitzMax over the last year than I really intended to which, although necessary, has been pretty distracting.

All and all, at this point I honestly have no idea when Max3D will be done. Perhaps I'll know in a months time? But perhaps in two months time I'll hit a snag that'll make me rethink *that* opinion? For that reason, no more release dates or guesstimates. Perhaps the official line should become 'what 3D module?'...

I know this all sounds pretty depressing, but everyone's been yelling for 'Max3D news' so here it is.

Personally, I'm still very excited about Max3D. Some of the little demos we've got going are pretty damn cool and the end result should be awesome. It's just proving to be a slightly more convoluted road to that end result than I imagined.

Best of all, I haven't really hit any 'performance wall' in BlitzMax that has made me seriously consider switching the whole thing over to C/C++. This itself was a huge concern when starting out - 'what if Max can't cut it'? Fortunately, it appears that it can.

In the meantime, there are several 3D libraries available for BlitzMax now, so get coding and stop moaning!

Any chance we can have a look?

Thanks for the news. BlitzMax 2D is good enough for me for now but I'm sure the 3D will be cool.

Very well, that clears up a lot of confusion.

Mark,

Why not do an iterative release? Release what you have, make it clear that its not near final, and much of it is subject to change over the next x months.

I'd think it would make a lot of max users happy, and give you a lot of input on whats good/bad. Bugs too.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the news!
Bad news is better than no news about the 3D module.

What GFK said, would love to have a peek at some stuff made with BMax, the last demo I've seen was a year or so ago was that space-ship model with some hardware effects applied to it.

Extremely depressing, however that now lets me put thought into my own 3d engine (for personal use) rather than hold out for max3d.

This news was well needed, and in my case, appreciated.

Thank-you mark, while it is sad to hear that Max3D is taking its time, news from the horse's mouth is far better than wild speculation.

Well, sad but wish you the best!

Are there any demos you can share or more detailed information on what are the parts which are good and those which aren't?

.

Thanks for replying Mark.
I think in this case bad news is better than no news. Things take as long as they take. However when it does arrive I think it will be special and people will be relieved you did whatever you've needed to do.
And people will still moan, but now we'll have something factual to moan about. Ta

While it's disappointing the 3dmodule is some time off, I'm glad you are spending more time on the core of BlitzMax.

BlitzMax is a very impressive language, and to improve the core language (including 2d in 3d functions) I suggest would be a better use of your time. Let others build or wrap current 3d engines - or do what the PureBasic author has done and integrate a widely avaiable 3d engine.

The work on the current 3d engine could still perhaps be worked-on when you feel you could spare the time.

Why not ask people using BlitzMax what they think it lacks or what could be improved? Then concentrate your time on these suggestions - perhaps charging a reasonable amount for updates.

Well, cannot say its much of a suprise, not after your comment the otherday that we should use MiniB3D.

The only reason Im impatiante for it at the moment is to ensure that BRL has an income, and remains solvent. Maybe its not a problem at all for you (afterall you know your accounts), but with only Max3D on the horizon thats probably your next influx of income.

Then again maybe there is a more continual income form Bmax and Blitz3D than I expect.

Thanks for the news. You definitely have the best head on your shoulders as far as I'm concerned with regard to your technology. Everything's always more well thought out than any other tool and it's always worth the time it takes you to work your magic. I think it's funny but the whole EULA thing is really nothing more than you streamlining and making things elegant which is typical of Blitz products. Nothing's convoluted and everthing just makes sense almost instinctually.

Anyway, I'll buy it when it's ready. In the meantime B3D is still proving to be an excellent tool. If I were a good 3D artist I'd be in heaven.

Mark, with respect, could you do a Max3D worklog?

I dont need Max3D (Which I've stated many times before), I'm a 2D relic with no future! ;)

But, it would keep the forum quiet if you posted little tit-bits now and again, let the community know what your thinking, why your doing what you are doing... It shouldnt really take a threat to BRL like the mmEngine3D to make you post this sort of post!

You've got a great bunch of coders here, hobbists (like me) or coders that use your language for a living. We all learn something here, either for profit or not, but your input (and output) is the most valuable piece of all Blitz programmers puzzle.

Sadly, with no mews about anything, this community could lose the best thing that this community has to offer, great coders...

Give us something Mark, even if it's just a little, don't be silent, you created this community by creating Blitz Basic...

...Just...Just...Talk to us!

Dabz

Well, I'm perfectly happy for "Sibbo" to just go the easy route and do Blitz3D 2 - fine by me - bring it on. It would probably be easier to add in lots of goodies into B3D.

Lots of people who have BMax have B3D and those who don't will then buy it. Everyone is a winner.

Hi Mark!
Thanks for the information. Best of luck getting Max3d working well, and no pressure from me for the release date.
You do some amazing work, so it would be a real shame if you were to rush this out the door.

Has anyone else noticed a sudden rise in Mark's posting frequency? All of a sudden he's posting all over the place!

Yeah, but wouldnt posting in a worklog be better, might keep us talking about tech bollocks than something as trivial as BlitzMax :P lol

Dabz

I'm not one of those who likes to apply tongue to derriere and blabber on about "god-like qualities" and all that, but it stands to reason ( I think ) that Mark and Simon are the two people I'm most interested in reading thoughts/opinions/tips from. I hope it continues.

I'm interesting too.

.

Tits, period... It's programming for god sakes! :D

Quote by puki


Puki, your one of the most interesting person's on the forum I've ever met in the last, what, 4-5 years.

And as long as you dont post a youTube video of yourself self-touching in front of your new rig... You'll be fine! :D

Dabz

Man... This news sucks! Hmmm...

..hmm..well..I deeply apprechiate news Mark post..on another I am not happy to start looking some other alternatives than Max3D...by the way, what is this miniB3D about anyway? What existing (and supported too) 3D module for Max really existing out there, worth to take a look at regarding next gen features, if any exist?

I'm glad I decided to go with 3Impact and TV3D. Haven't fully tried miniB3D yet as I'm waiting for it to become more complete.

It's not sad news to me that Max3D is still a long way off because I would rather time was taken with it to ensure it's of high quality than to make a borked, missing features release.

Thanks for the news though. :)

Maybe you could help out with MiniB3D, Mark.

With this crowd, I'd wager it'll piss more people off.

I'm a pilot and in flying we have 5 golden rules if experiencing difficulties. Confess, Communicate, Climb, Comply and Conserve.

Mark, thanks for communicating and confessing, much appreciated. A little communication can go a long way towards solving an issue.

Well put, CodeGit. And thank you Mark.

Well, at last an official statement. Thanks very much!
Only for curiosity what are 'bits you are very happy with, bits you are not so happy with, and bits that suck...'?
I'm very happy with BlitzMax 2d for my goals so a 3d module is not a priority at the moment; so take the dev without stress...
byez

Thanks for the news.

Take all time you need.

Now it will be exciting again to see what's coming next: Max3D or the Duke...any bets? :O)

Interesting point, Amon.

For a long time, people have been clamoring just for an update to Blitz3D to support the most current graphic APIs.

If the official Max3D module was basically a re-tooling of Blitz3D, but leveraging OpenGL and/or the most current version of DirectX, I imagine most users would be fine with that, provide you with a product release, and give you a basis for working in any fancy new tweaks you have been working on.

That said, thank you for the update. It shows responsibility, and respect to your community. Wasn't nearly the mean-spirited back-lash you thought it would be, was it? :)

[edit]
hmmm... after reading a related post, it seems that the "official B3D under max" thing is a common suggestion.

thanks for the news mark.

is there any chance you could speed up the release on max3d by focusing on opengl first and then dx9/10 later. personally i think opengl support is more important than dx as it is more cross-platform compatible.

also, is there any chance you could rethink the b3d demo and remove the 30-days limit and replace it with a maximum code size of around say 1000 lines. sort of like a free educational version. i think the current 30-days system is outdated and bad for business.

i am quite drunk at the minute btw. :)

Nope. It was already announced that they were focusing entirely on OpenGL for now with no DX9 or DX10 support until later, and I think Mark suggested that someone from the community might do the DX driver? Don't take my word for it, I'm sure it's in Mark's worklog somewhere.

What I love is that he is completely honest 1000% with us. It shows a true understanding of his reader/user and a pure humility in his purpose.

OK enough sunshine blown! ;) I am going to buy B+ for a project and I am working on convincing my jefe to invest in BMax for 2 projects that may be comin down the pipe which would need 2D core graphics and have to run on a serverset anyway... This just reaffirms belief that this is a solid project and a good company!

Take what time you need Mark. Release little bits as you will as projects or addons... I support you!

Why does it have to REDEFINE 3d engines? Why can't it just be blitz3d with bump-mapping, specular lighjting, and a nice shader system?

Seriously mark why make things so hard for yourself? Nothing's great on the first try. (Don't ask me to prove that! :) )

Release it, GET FEEDBACK and then you'll know not what YOU THINK makes a great next gen 3d engine, but what your CUSTOMERS think makes a great 3d engine.

Release what you've got and build on it. We don't expect an engine to beat Unreal2007...and you shouldn't either.

Wow, sounds like you've gained some insight AntMan :)
I agree, I don't want an UnrealMax2007 engine, I just want an updated Blitz3D without the surface limitations :)

I'm assuming it's a case of Mark actively trying to expand his market instead of simply catering to his current market.

The problem with releasing it now would be that he'd be snowed-under with bug reports, lists of missing features, lists of things that don't quite work, endless requests of "can you just fix this..." and he'd never get anything done.

Far better to let him fix it all and then get a nice stable solid build one day.

I'd like to see the demos though :)

Could it be that Blitz3D isn't as easy to maintain/expand as you assume?

Except Blitz3D obviously, is that it?

Speak for yourself.

..hehe..I like this duck :)

I want the engine to be so badass and awesome that Unreal goes out of business. And if I dont get it for less than $20 I'm going to commit suicide.

Also, a pony.

Leiden: We will remember your post ;)

Better to release something complete and finished as it will have bugs in it anyway. Also even if Im the first one to really want to see some demos now I guess it's best not to showoff unless you are very very certain that the features will be there in the end.

Therefor I guess Mark is doing the best thing just staying as low as possible.

You guys, think of this as good news! I didn't buy Blitz3D to have it obsolete in a few years!

> so get coding and stop moaning!

Read between the lines everyone, stop speculating, stop guesstimating, just DO SOME WORK and leave the guy alone to get on with it! :)

Thanks for letting us know exactly what the situation is.
I haven't hit any limits with Blitz3d ( at least those which can't be worked around ) so I shall continue using that for the present.
I have no doubt that Max3d will kick butt when it does arrive and, as mentioned, MiniB3d is getting more complete all the time and is well worth having a look at.

Once MiniB3D has operational collision commands I think I'll be in hobbyist nirvana. BlitzMax with a nice, simple 3D engine will be very delicious.

Ogre.

Does Ogre have collision commands?

It has a big ol' mean club +1.

Dont think so.

Its very diappointing news - it might be worth stopping any further coding on an official 3D module, concentrate on BM and let other people do a 3D system.

Mini3D may be worth looking into if there is a Mac OS demo - although as the Mac version of Irrlicht is a couple of iterations behind (and looks like it may never be updated), it may have been worth trying a different engine...

But on the positive side, there's only been two years before nothing arrived - so far, Truevision 6.5 is on three years...

Nothing arrived? I don't know how long TV6.5 has been in the making, but I'm using a very powerful, full-featured 3d engine, so I don't know where "nothing arrived" comes in with regard to TrueVision.

If you mean they haven't made it official and given it away to the freebie people, the people with big mouths and small wallets, then you're right, they haven't. I think you only need to read these forums ( heck, this thread ) to see why that hasn't happened.

What Gab Said.

@chaotic
lol

@Gabriel
Are you allowed to show off stuff done with tv3d yet? I mean beside of the wallet can you make use of it if you wish today?

No idea why you thought I meant Truevision there, when I was talking about 3D for BlitzMax, but never mind.

Is Truevision 6.5 is out of beta and has all the modules in place too ?

I don't see why you lot complain about lack of Max3D anymore :P

Yeah you lot, Me and Cygnus are totally over Max3D :P

If Im still single in the future, I might hook up with Max3D. Providing she treats me better than she used to.