Upgrade from BlitzMax to Blitz3D

Don't know if this is the correct forum but is it worth upgrading to BMax? How do you gain/lose?
Thanks

That's hard to say really. For one, Blitzmax does not yet have it's own 3D engine, but there are a few decent usermade 3D modules out there.

B.litzmax's strength lies in the completely redesigned language. While you can still code like you did in B3D, it offers so very much more now. Add to that that you can compile c and assembler source directly into your Blitzmax code. Also it offers direct access to just about any C/C++ library out there. That includes a number of commercial 3D engines, Raw OpenGL and DirectX.

It's a pretty powerfull package and I personally never looked back to B3D. But in the end it's prolly a matter of taste. If you don't need all the extra power and features that Bmax offers, than you might as well stick with B3D.At least until BRL releases the 3D Module for Blitzmax.

You gain:
- Cross platform support
- Native 2D in 3D support
- Smaller compiled executables
- More regular product updates
- OOD if you want it

You lose:
- Ease of use
- In built 3D support

If you don't mind your games running in OpenGL I'd recomend BlitzMax and MiniB3D. The power of BlitzMax with the functionality of Blitz3D.

could you port a blitz3d game over to minib3d yet?

I completely disagree with that.

Blitzmax is object oriented, and while this may be a bit strange to people who have spent any length of time with Blitz3d, you *do* get used to it, and its a lot better. I'd strongly recommend using BLIde instead of the standard IDE, though.

If you don't want to go down the OO route, then you don't have to. Almost everything (if not everything) can be achieved without going OO. Having used Blitzmax for a good few months now I don't know why you'd want to avoid OO, but you can.

Blitzmax is easier than blitz3d once you learn the language, however the learning curve is steeper.

So its harder initially but once you know it well, it is easier to do things in compared to blitz3d.

The documentation can be daunting with Max, but you really can program just like you did in B3D, so it's not really any harder.

Try the Max demo and see what you think.

Yeh, B3D and BMax are 2 different things - I own both but never use BMax - I love B3D. BMax has a certain amount of 'fiddling about' to it.

I didn't like the faffing about with BMax.

The above advice is the best - try the demo.

I have a feeling that even when the 3D mod comes out for BMax, I'll buy it and then carry on with B3D.

There isn't any 'faffing about', unless you want recompile modules - in which case you have to install MinGW and add some environment vars.

Linux/Mac versions are allegedly a different matter, though.

I've often considered going back to BB3D, but I don't think I can live with programming in a non-OO environment any more.

Bmax is powerful, and with the use of Strict and Superstrict, forces you to code well (Ok, for some people thats impossible :p).

I class B3D and BlitzMax not as different versions of the same products, but two seperate products. B3D is great for new programmers and the learning curve is non existent, I jumped right in and got on with it.

Bmax took alot more looking at but contains many more pro features that you would expect. OOP allows you to code a bit of code once and use it many times by just including the type in the new program. This modular approach takes some getting used to BUT after you learn it you won't be able to go back as the difference is crippling.

people around here know that just a few months back I was whining about OOP, but i've learnt it and now understand why and how to use it. It's a feature you really should learn in Max.

You will like Max. if you want to do 2D, then chose Max.

for 3D I use a wrapper called SOW (though it has not been updated in a while) but there are many different 3D mods available like MiniB3D.

Don't expect B3D usability in these 3D modules just yet mind.. For 3D right now I'd suggest B3D unless you want the extra features of the Bmax base language. :)

oops your thread title is in reverse (has anyone said that already?).

I wouldn't. The manual for one is terrible compared to B3Ds and there are many procedural commands missing (when compared to OOP equivalents).

That's because you came to B3D late. The original manual for Blitz3D was much, much worse than the current BlitzMAX one (never mind things missing, some things where flat out wrong).

What counts isn't how early something is, but what the majority of people experienced.

No, the manual that shipped with the majority of copies, was far better than what blitzmax has now:

- it explained and had examples
- it was printed and could be referred to on the desk
- comprehensive for what it was

The blitzmax language not only is more complex but suffers far, far worse documentation. As a more complex language it should have had way more in-depth explanations. The 'instructions' are a complete mess still really, with no structure.

It is just a command lookup with some vague examples. The examples are not even commented. That actually sucks badly.

There really isn't a proper flow to it nor a beginner-friendly set of explanations at the start. Its written very much from an experienced programmers point of view, skipping vast chunks of information beginners find useful.

This isn't an attack, but the truth, and quite possibly if you compare the number of demo users to full version users you may find the conversion ratio suffered for it.

I have yet to see a BlitzMax fully 3D game released yet and I suspect we won't until long after the native 3d module is released.
Minib3d is very good and is improving but doesn't yet have all the functionality of Blitz3d that you would need for a full blown 3d game.
You will have to spend a lot of time to evaluate and find a 3rd party 3d module that you can use in BMax that has all the functionality you need.
What happens when something does not work quite right - where do you go for help or support - the developers of the 3d module ? - the author of the wrapper ? - the author of BMax ? Why complicate things by using so many layers ?
In my opinion if you want to write rock solid 3D games with the minimum fuss Blitz3d is still the number one choice.
Let's face it no Indy programmer is going to write an AAA game with all the latest DX9 eye candy and content - that takes a team of many coders,artists & designers.

Surely even you realise that that was because the current Blitz3D manual is the result of years of annotations and feedback, and months of skidracers time, where as the BlitzMAX documentation so far probably only had a few weeks of documentation work behind it.

So does the current BlitzMAX one.

If you wanted an out-of-date one, yes. Why is this even important tho'? Unless you're using an etch-a-sketch or pen and pencil for programming, you're going to have to have a computer in front of you anyhow.

Matter of opinion, rather than matter of fact. The Blitz3D manual that I have is rubbish. It spends ages explaining the simplest of concepts, and no time at all on complex ones (aka. the ones you would need good reference materials for).

We agree that the BlitzMAX manual could use a little extra work. I'm fairly sure that in 4 more years, when BlitzMAX has matured to the point Blitz3D has, it will have comparable (if not better) documentation.

If that's thruely your point, then why use BlitzMAX (or Blitz3D) at all? I'll tell you why: It's cheaper and speeds up development.

Define 'many'. If many = 10, 3 programmers, 6 artists and 1 designer, then yes. But you have to be clever about how you do it.

So it could be worth it when the Max3D comes out?


Oops I noticed that after I posted.

Good point.

Well, though you guys wont see it's release, We've been working a paid project since before Max was released, recently moved it over to max, and that uses Ogre. Works well.

People could release their games in Max using 3D if people would put the effort into a fully working usable wrapper. There are a few around.

Actually, I bought the box set at the BB upgrade price the month it came out ;] I just had no PC for a year...

Have you heard of John Pickford?

I wonder why people do this in internet debates. Why challenge someone's request as opposed to helping them figure out a way to get what they want? They aren't wrong for not doing things the same way you do. They just do things differently.

I said: "comprehensive for what it was" -- the context was that the manual was beginner friendly, and your reply was:



Your point again? you constantly fail to understand what context means and pick out things purely to argue your point which isn't useful at all.

The manual that ships with any product SHOULD be entirely beginner friendly and ONLY beginner friendly. Advanced subjects have no end and certainly aren't within the scope of any manual online or otherwise, that ship with a brand new product.

I wouldnt bother to try and argue with FlameDuck about BlitzMax's documentaion, or even anything remotely to do with the IDE, he'll out quote you at a ratio of 10:1!

lol, I've even tried it:-

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=61054#682609

Dabz

[EDIT] Added link

Yes and Naked War is amazing and a very good example of what can be achieved with Blitz3d without having to resort to DX9 shaders etc.
It looks amazing and has great depth of gameplay - and its DX7.

I agree with the sentiment that whilst BMax and B3D come from the same stable - they are two very different products. I started in B3D and moved into BMax. I gained from BMax being able to create a stable product - I daresay I could have done the same in B3D given time - unforunately time is a bit on the short side!