Are some people just plain stoopid?

Get a load of this : http://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/xhenxhe_105130.html

Now I've nothing against competitive products but this is so blatent. Silly man should have read the terms and conditions when he signed up for an igLoader trial.

PJIO is looking good! As I can't install igLoader - working on competitive system myself :) - went to download fueldepot but it wants to download from lesbird.com??? This would have been an igloader free version I assume?

Also guaranteed spyware and adware free but not virus free? If you're not hosting the files themselves are you sure you are able to guarantee this even?

The Download, Purchase and Website links go direct to the author - ie. no igLoader.

Yes the files are virus free, I should make it more obvious :)

Good luck with "competitive system" :) I look forward to seeing your efforts.

{EDIT : Guess you did not read the terms and conditions too eh? is that why you *never* installed it? Btw, the terms only apply to the trial and the SDK }

I also like the one guys estimate at 1 day, $100. :)

Hey 20 players online. Gettin' there bro!

Yeah, come on Tim, you've been holding out on us with igLoader, making out it took longer than a day to make ;)

I'm not actually surprised though. Those freelance sites are full of "can you clone this.." jobs. Clone this website, clone this game, clone these textures, clone these sounds, clone this database system, clone this dating portal, clone this bank site ( oops.. PayPal scam! )

This is the place where i normally say ... ;O)

http://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/C-C-XML/Execute-EXE-Browser.html

Thanks Eikon, I wish the guy luck - I really do. You see it's not about the technology - it's about how and where it's applied.

Yep, it is a childishly simple technique, really. There are a few ways to do it, some a bit more complicated than others, but they all work in generally the same way.
If anyone manages a seamless Mac/Linux port, though... that will be impressive. Still as easy as with Windows (though with 3 times the API research), but cross-platform is always nice.

It's just a matter of applying it in an easy to use manner with the right features to make it more than just an in-browser application downloader / launcher. I think Tim hit the nail on the head with igLoader's extra features.

On the topic of this... I wonder if Max's DLL support could be easily used to create NPAPI plugins...

What are the terms and coditions you speak of? Someone is creating a competitive product ... so what? Running an application in a browser isn't something that was undone before.

I would imagine its a incorrect detection but I tried pjio (tested with bulletcandy), the plugin did not work (But I am running x64 XP so that may be why.

Worse though is that my virus scanner at work (Sophos) comes back with

User: BMM\rogerl
Scan: On-access
Machine: ROG380

Virus 'Mal/Behav-016' has been detected in "C:\Documents and Settings\rogerl\igLoader Files\BulletCandy\BulletCandy.dll"

Hopefully just a bad signature trigger but IndiePath may want to look at it/liase with Sophos as its not going to generate any good will with customers who are not tech savvy.

Roger.

Agreed.

While igLoader is a pretty neat idea for the most part, the strides being made in browsers to minimize the security threat of installed applications natively (such as the Active X sandbox in IE7) is going to rapidly remove the need for programs like this. Ride the gravy train while you can.

Yes but using the information contained within my SDK to create your own product is against the terms of the license.

Seems to a generic error in sophos - I'll investigate - thanks.

Actually you are quite wrong. We work fine in IE7 and VistaIE7 (protected mode) just means that we don't have to Sandbox applications anymore - it's done for us (we currently use the same techinques as employed in Vista). If anything VistaIE7 makes igLoader more viable.

Damn, I just got off!

Ok. I'm not entirely sure what I said was wrong. I didn't say that your software wouldn't work in IE7. I just said that one of the main reasons to use your downloader is soon going to be a native feature to most browsers.

The challenge of content distribution isn't really gathering stats on usage (though I imagine some might appreciate a gizmo that does that for you). The challenge is delivering it securely with minimized risk and hardship to the end-user.

The real question is, what service does igLoader provide once sandboxing is a native feature? If there's nothing, you are truly riding a gravy train, right? :)

I'd definitely look into emailing Sophos. I've seen them mess up on definitions more than a few times.

You know what igLoader is?

I would bet no ^^

igLoader has nothing to do with downloading, but with playing within the browser without the need of installing an application, as regular executables do. (and thus in the end at best with security on the creator side I would guess)

You can't play an exe based application within a browser without it. The Vista sandbox won't change anything to that, nor does the sandbox change anything to real downloads btw, as they leave the sandbox. (they are not executed within IE7)

lol. Am I being stupid or may I ask how can you prove anything, even if somebody stole your ideas?

Do I get this right. You're basically saying, you can look at my source, but you can't learn from it? Good luck trying to use that in court...

I gave a person some source code a 3-4 months ago because he begged me on how important it was to port my emulator to the amiga so "amigans" can play it, He continued to beg and pleaded with me to give him my source as he stated he did not know how to write such a program although he is an experienced programmer. I agreed as long as he didnt make a "competiting product" (IE another windows emulator from my source code as It WAS the only working emulator for that console)

He agreed as per the terms of my licence agreement packaged with the download.

A quote on copyrights: "material that you are given permission to use or display on your web site does not entitle you to claim copyright to the material in question. Permission to use someone else's material does not make you the rightful owner or holder."


1 Shortly after the amiga port was released a windows version appeared by him. He called it a "backport" thus freeing him of my license agreement.

2 Credit for my programming was removed from where it once was in the about window

3 He claimed in his README that he co-wrote my emulator which was written by me only.

4 He blantly removed links from wikipedia to my site and slammed my program saying his was better than mine.

5 He defaced my webs sites messages and continued to stalk my site 4 times a day, copying each new feature exactly within days of each update, I can only guess this is an attempt to make my software valueless by having an exact replica available.His copying anticts got so bad I removed my emulator from the net and discontinued my site.

6 his name is James R Jacobs of canberra australia.

7 I will never share source code again, (Programming snippets and tips are ok)

How would I protect my self against copyright infringements in the future (Appart from smart stuff like dont send source code) and what action can be taken?

As I have found that Im powerless to stop a copyright infringer and even once they are identified they can continue to offend un-obstructed.

Is there an group you can join that will protect its members of copyright infringements? that would be a good idea!

It seems that there is a tendancy for copyrights to be ignored by programmers , this culture of shame has been with computers since the early days.

FINALLY it isnt all bad because this pirate has educated me and made me streetwise when having dealings across the big open internet.

Woke some of you up though :)

Anyway, I've bigger fish to fry :)

Muhahahaha I just went to wikipedia and removed his links again, as he has done to me many times in the past

muhhahahahahah!

Anyone gonna shout me a plane ticked to canberra, bring a cam and I will bring the softball bat, you will of course have copyrights to the vid.

Yes. Yes they are.

You should get your article locked because of vandalism?

What vandalism? we here are simply discussing a general computer topic?

And im sorry if your offended but there is hardly a constructive way of talking about pirates?

above is simply a joke, like haha, get it, you make a vid of me smashing the pirate and you get the copyrights of that vid.

Only a joke, I dont actually intend on..... wait no the voices inside my head say yes do it....


BUT CONSTRUCTIVELY I would like to state the very obvious that this topic should have never started because there is nothing wrong with coping another program, this does not need discussion it is simply fact that there is more than one FTP program, there is more than one FIRST PERSON SHOOT UP, there is more than one BASIC COMPILER......at some point each person in some way copied each other by having memories of using the other software in there head.

It is not ok to obtain source code dishonestly and use that to make a competing program.

Having said all this I just took a look at IGloader and Im considering using it for my software to stop software thief's, it looks like a great idea, users can play your software online without being able to save a copy at there end, this is exactly what I want for my future software projects after my previous experiences.

hmmm... Im off this has sparked an idea for another topic

You are probably correct (at least about the igLoader stuff). What you're saying about Vista's sandbox goes against all of the whitepapers I've been reading. But it might have been misinterpretation (on either of our parts)

Not to crap all over igLoader or Indiepath's efforts, but I guess I've not really seen it as an entirely innovative technology.

From my apparently misguided understanding, I thought that igLoader was a service application that employs technology very similar to .Net's smart-client "click once" deployment.
It creates a virtualized environment for which content can sit in a secure container away from everything else (in this case, a browser, but I imagine with a few minor changes, it could launch independently of a browser as well... am I correct, Indie?).

I imagine it uses remoting to DOWNLOAD the content into that virtualization for purposes of consumption and execution. I imagine that is how it gets away with not prompting you for the content it is magically streaming from thin air.

Then again, I could be just imagining :)

That said, it doesn't matter if technology is innovative or not. Indie path is making a living from it. The games industry hasn't been innovative for years, and it continues to be one of the top entertainment money makers.

I'm not a lawyer, but at the same time, your terms and conditions are only as enforable as the amount of damage you sustain from someone's efforts, which is something you also have to prove. If someone wants to remotely pipe content for their own purposes, and didn't want to buy your product to do it, you didn't lose a sale.

That guy has not said anywhere on that freelancer site that he intends to compete with you. He has a right not to buy from you and roll his own solution if that's what he wants to do. If you're that worked up about it, your better approach might be to ask him to identify what it is about your product that he doesn't like. You might even be able to get him to spill his true intentions if you're friendly enough.... or *gasp* come to some agreement and get a sale.

It might just be that what he doesn't like about igLoader is that he doesn't own it and can't sell it to other people. With the recent sell-off of YouTube for 4 squillion sheets of toilet paper ( sorry, I meant stock ) I imagine a lot of people are trying to predict the next YouTube.

How many sheets of toilet paper is igLoader worth? I'm fairly sure Indiepath is a lot smarter than to wander down that road. These types of dealings destroyed the IT industry just a few years ago.

Interesting point though. The ad-funded "game tube" model was tried a few years ago and wasn't terribly successful. (Anyone remember Jellyvision and "You don't know Jack" and the severely under-rated "Get the picture"). Maybe it'll be different now that times have changed.

It's not, many have come before and failed. They simply did not see the bigger picture about how the technology could be developed and applied. There will always be the debate about ActiveX and security and I can do nothing about that (apart from wait for Vista). And like I said before it's not the technology that's innovative, it's the application of that technology. There is an offline version coming for pjio.

Yes the software can launch independent of a browser, the base architecture can be plugged into any application - the plugin compiles just use the browser API functions to make life easier. For example you could create a "Steam" type application quite simply.

That would be the price and the fact that I control the application licenses(I can shut down every instance of an application remotely).

You may find out sooner than you think.

Times have changed, many companies are pinning their future on such ventures.

A quote (taken out of context)


Pay attention to this bit:

Does that mean your apps call home Indie, logging IP's and such?

Dabz

igLoader calls home to check it's version number (for the automated upgrades) and to check validity of licenses. We do not log IP or any other information (see privacy policies).

This seems a little beneath you.

That's rich coming from you! (oh you changed your post, covering up with insecurity?)

No, I changed it because I felt it was a personal attack and didn't want to go there. But congrats on taking the higher road.

You can repport him to the authorities (copyright infringement is a criminal offense) and sue him for damages and what not.

Particularly if you fail to take appropriate action.

There are quite a few. ELSPA and FAST in the UK ESA in the US. However whether it's such a hot idea is another issue. Try contacting the EFF (eff.org) and see what advice they can give you.

It has nothing to do with programmers. It is a problem with intangible theft being socially acceptable.

I think igLoader is a nice tool, but I must confess to being a little confused at to what pjio is. Is it meant to be a beta-testing site or is it a sales portal because it seems to be a mix between the two.

Personally I look at the site and see what looks like a cool game from the screens, and see people have scored it 2.1 and consequently I don't want to load something I may have before (Fickle perhaps but I am a Tottenham Hotspur supporter). The star scoring system should either be weighted, or be put in a less prominent place. Perhaps put the stars on the games individual screen rather than the main page and tbh comments give a far better indication than a star score anyway.

Also due to I guess that fact Indiepath isn't picking and choosing which games are on the site you seem to have a mix of games in various states, from full to pre beta. These should be labelled "Full", "Demo" or "In Development" so the player knows gets a better idea of what to expect.

Would it be possible to give the developer other information such as the length of play?

I hope you're right. I don't want to cobble my way through another .com crash.



That's great exposure for you. Congratulations.


Let's hope you find out before Microsoft devalues your efforts with native support. The money grubbin !@$!@'s

Microsoft probably wouldn't do anything like this with native support. There is a lot more to igLoader than just embedding an application in a browser; anyone could do that first step via a bit of messing with the Windows API.

They may do the automatically embedding any program in the browser part (in fact, I wrote a plugin of my own which offers to do that), but the other fancy features wouldn't be as easy.

I agree with Rob regarding the star ratings devaluing a lot of games on pjio. How about replace the stars with snippets of comments?
...Or "Mini-comments"? (Small comments which are used for quick descriptions that people would usually put full and concise thoughts into).

Anyhow, I sense a flamer. Wtf?!
Heck, not even I am flaming, and I'm the guy who could run in circles whining about how Tim is doing the same sort of web plug-in solution as I am.

No it isn't. It's generally a civil matter.

In criminal law, a guilty defendant is punished by either (1) incarceration in a jail or prison, (2) fine paid to the government, or, in exceptional cases, (3) execution of the defendant: the death penalty. Crimes are divided into two broad classes: felonies have a maximum possible sentence of more than one year incarceration, misdemeanors have a maximum possible sentence of less than one year incarceration



So-called punitive damages are never awarded in a civil case under contract law. In a civil case under tort law, there is a possibility of punitive damages, if the defendant's conduct is egregious and had either (1) a malicious intent (i.e., desire to cause harm), (2) gross negligence (i.e., conscious indifference), or (3) a willful disregard for the rights of others. The use of punitive damages makes a public example of the defendant and supposedly deters future wrongful conduct by others. Punitive damages are particularly important in torts involving dignitary harms (e.g., invasion of privacy) and civil rights, where the actual monetary injury to plaintiff(s) may be small.


So in this case, John is right. This would be a civil matter.

here is the link to help out: http://www.rbs2.com/cc.htm