Is it just me or does gaming suck nowdays?

I've been reading about hardware again and looked at a course on it and I thought "wow cool, I could chuck all my money at a shiny new computer and use it for gaming!". But I struggle to find anything worth while, as its all biased towards idiots or been bought over and trashed.

Rareware's opportunity at bond: stolen by ea.
The ip rights for Command & Conquer: stolen by ea.
The ip rights of halo: stolen by ms
Pretty much everything else: stolen by ea or ms again.

Its sad watching all of these amazing titles go down the toilet through stupidity or corporate greed. Late 90's was a great time for gaming, but now its impossible to find a game that...

- doesn't require broadband to play properly.
- doesn't have cheap sleazy woman everywhere.
- doesn't require the player to think properly. (I hate paying attention, I just like blowing shit up and not stopping to worry about anything)

I bet that someone will say that hl2 is a good singleplayer biased game with no cheap women and not much thinking. In case you are that person: Ok, I get back from school/a course/work and want to relax... what is relaxing about the fear of having your brain sucked out or being clawed to death by zombies?

The idea of fun has changed from only requiring one computer/console and one person to requiring a really good internet connection (possible relocation) or more than 3 computers/consoles and the will to swear, abuse, harass, name call (gay, noob, etc) other players to get your rank up and win no matter what.

I made an awesome no-brainer game in blitzmax recently, and it was a big hit (for ten minutes) in maths class when I was allowed to use the projector :D I made my game as simple as possible, so you don't have to be: male, rich, white, next to a telephone exchange and a retard to play. This weird girl who was semi-interested borrowed it. I was hoping to see if it worked properly and if it wasn't too boring - but unfortunately it was somehow "still on her desk" two days later.

Is this a good or normal perspective to have on gaming or what? And what linux distro do you recommend for xmas!

Buy yourself a Wii?

Yep, EA hit video games hard and quickly.

It's a real shame, because this sort of thing is hard to reverse, and it has happened in a lot of places. I thought video games were safe from it, but I was quite wrong :(

There is still hope, though, and lots of it.
Those great games that really get noticed are generally not made by sellouts. For example:

-VALVe hasn't completely given in to an evil publisher

-Nintendo is a huge publisher/developer, but they don't come across as nearly as evil as EA. Probably because they know what they're doing and make some great games (they don't publish crap too often, either... but I do wonder what goes through their heads when they do). Let's hope that stays.

-Darwinia and Defcon (especially Defcon. Personally, I can't stand Darwinia) are two great games developed by a very small number of people.
They have become even more accessible (thus popular) thanks to Steam, which is a great medium for bringing together indie and AAA games into the exact same place. I think it works well for that, and I hope VALVe irons out every last bug and gets it working across platforms. They have a really great opportunity here.
Consider that Darwinia was developed by a team of 4, while those AAA titles are developed by enormous teams. There could be way more simple and fun games than AAA high-budget eye-candy games, and all developed in far less time.



I recommend Ubuntu Edgy for Christmas, of course... although, I'm not happy about their rushed release schedule. Lots of little bugs and the artwork team didn't finish on time so they've reverted to boring old Dapper artwork. It's quite unfortunate, because Edgy used to look fantastically unified.
Edgy is still lightning fast compared to past releases (and I thought they were fast) and it has some great default software, like Tomboy.

Nintendo is a bit trashy and seems to like little children or old people do they not? But yeah, definitely not a sellout or money eater!

Valve is um... a team of disturbed people. Hl2 is a helluva good result of their work, although I find it the kind of game you watch, not play. So I see my friend get clawed to death, not me. Watching is great, I don't feel like I'm there :O what is valves involvement with ea?

Anyways I looked at edgy-eft a while ago... from what I've heard the beta version sounds terrible. I'll still download the finished version though. How about the paid-for/commercial ones?

... theres 3 questions for anyone browsing :)

Nintendo has made several of the most popular games in the world. Many of their games are cartoonish but not necessarily geared towards 'little children'.

Uber-nerd...are there any games you DO like?

Their involvement with EA seems entirely based around getting HL2 and its episodes on other platforms. (PS3 and XBox 360)
I'm hoping it doesn't go beyond that, and I do wonder why it occurs at all.

I just remembered a reason why these huge game publishers annoy me:
All those games where you get the giant publisher logo at the start... so annoying!
I really can't stand the number of logos folks slap on games these days. They could at least integrate them with the game like they do with movies!

Nintendo liking little children and old people?!
Nah, they just like accessibility. I think it works well, because otherwise they would be developing the same stupid games as everyone else.

Not sure if we're in agreement here, but I do think complex games like well written RPGs and first-person shooters (in moderation... right now is ridiculous though seems to be calming down a tad) can be good.


I'm excited for the next C&C. They seem to be finally returning to the roots :)
I hope they do it right!


The beta of Edgy has been great for me :)
Who said that it was bad?
People complain a bit, but it is noticeably fast and the various system tools like the updater (now sorts types of updates into sections), package manager and network configuration have been made much more useful and pretty looking. The shared folders and wireless support (and wireless speed) have also improved substantially.

Paid for Linuxes, eh? They're probably not bad at all, but I don't see a reason to. (Especially with the awful computer I have running Linux...)
I've seen some nice support for Compiz out of the box in the payed ones, though, and they probably have generally superior designs with minimal terminal use.

Edit:
I was going to ask that, too, Chroma.
You don't like half-life-ish stuff, you don't like childish or old people games...
Are you one of those Asteroids people? :b

I liked cnc, goldeneye64 and halo before they got eaten. And edgy eft is beta, has six months between releases and according to someone on a programming forum in general tech discussion said it was rushed :) Maybe its not bad, but after installing ie7 beta and finding that nortons uses ie to run its scripts......... well lets just say I don't like beta software very much :D then again, it is linux. But I haven't had a great experience with linux so far :( not that windows is any form of alternative.

And cnc3 sounds great, I'd buy it but thats only *one* game I have any interest in. So its not worth a few thousand to play. Besides it'll be online biased, leaving me with the only multiplayer option of buying another computer to play against other players. That wouldn't come cheap, one nz dollar= about 65 us cents. Plus the 12.5% tax on goods and services. Its a waste of money... I'll stick with the idea of buying another computer and collecting linux distros. Its cheaper and I can learn stuff.

Get Rogue Trooper.

Yeh, shame it's supposed to be a sequel to Tiberian Sun.


They are, and I quote, doing it their way. There are many heated topics on the official forums pointing out an endless supply of really daft storyline/universe/unit decisions, but they don't give a rats. Was a nice series we had there once.

You know that Bungie had nothing beside of a demo for the mac and they were miles away from a game without a publisher to finance the development of the game?

Without M$ or another publisher with some money there simply would have been no Halo at all.

Games in the States are pretty lame these days. I'm really into shooters so I invested in a Japanese PS2 and boy am I never going to get bored! There are bundles upon bundles of japanese shooters for the ps2! All the ones by Cave are my favorite!

Bollocks. Bungie has been bankrolling their own games since the mid 80's (you may have heard of Marathon, the FPS of champions, Myst the pretty landscape simulator or Oni, the Anime inspired platform beat'em up). 'Selling out' to Microsoft was not due to lack of funds.

Bungie has been independantly published since the early 90's.

It was if i remember the story right i have read about it when it happened.

Hey Uber - nerd - I kind of agree, the only games I play these days are either small simple blitz ones from here, or my own, or the various Xbox Arcade Classics collections (Capcom, Taito and Midway). In fact I'm quite looking forward to the Capcom Classics "2" CD for Xbox with a few good old scrolling beat 'em ups.

The story I remember was that Microsoft had a spanky new console, and no games (much less must-have games) for it. Since Halo was the most hyped game in history, Microsoft just started throwing money at Bungie until they could no longer refuse.

Well, obviously there were impressed by the demo. Why should they otherwise pay money for it?! I think this was a winner for both sides. Enabled Bungie to do the game and M$ to sell XBoxes. I couldn't enjoy the pc version as it was too generic and steril but most of the people did. So also a winner for the gamers, beside of the pissed mac users of course.

In my experience, companies don't sell themselves and all their IP if they're flush with cash and happily self funding.

There are 3 kinds of gamers: Indie, Pop, and Connoisseurs.

Like films or music, the indie game scene is a viable section of games developement and consumption. They tend to be easy to pick up, and easy to put down an hour or 2 later. Some are addicting, for about a day or two. There is nothing wrong with any of that. They are cheaper and people who play them can feel connected to the scene because they could talk to the developers and it is a lot more fun from that perspective.

Pop games are just like pop music or popcorn films. They are full of sex and violence, have a thick layer of corporate polish that.. guess what... appeals to a lot of people. You can't knock that either. They make a lot of money, they spend s lot of money, they cost more and they are often generic... but no one who likes them cares that they are generic.

Then, there are connoisseur games and gamers. There are the few and the proud. In film, these are the Munichs, or the Pulp Fictions, or the ETs, or the Star Warss. In music, it is stuff like... Led Zep, Nirvanna, the Beatles, the Doors, Black Sabbath... These are games like... Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Starcraft, Half Life, Okami, Super Mario Bros, Tetris, and loads others. They are the games which are trying to be great games, regardless of the norm... Regardless of what people say makes a great game.. All this pedantic filler bs... It all boils down to having IT or not. And IT can be in a simple game like Tetris, or IT can be in a very complex game like Starcraft...

Very few games get IT... that super simple isn't what makes a game great, and that big boobies isn't either. It has to be both simple to use at first, and have great depth to the gameplay, and all the while be fun to play. This is what keeps me coming back to play Ocarina and Starcraft over and over.

It was unfortunate that 1998 happened. It really ruined gamer's expectations for great games. 3 of the best games in history game out in 1998... Perhaps more. It isn't going to happen like that again, and it isn't because games are so corporate, because a game can have big boobies and violence and still have IT. And it isn't because Indie games are all too simple, because you can be like Tetris and still have it... In fact... Bejewled has IT.... unfortunately there are so many clones of bejewled that iit is no longer anything special... That is the problem with the simple games, really.

Games, be they Indie or Pop, don't try to get IT. Because IT isn't really known. IT is everything that makes a game truely great, IT is the full package.

All of you are arguing over simplicity and complexity and breasts and corporate bs, and EA and Microsoft killing games, and how much you all loved the old days of games and the older simple games. All of that is a matter of taste, and it doesn't enter into what will make a game great. You can't build something as great as Tetris from just any old puzzle idea. Just like you can't make half life out of any old generic FPS.

Most of the people here are Indie Gamers. They don't like the corporate games, we all know that, but they aren't any more and less valid than the hundreds of match-3 clones and mindless trash that comes out in the indie world... So they don't have big tits and lots of violent explosions... They are still trash for the same reasons... Everyone oversimplifies what makes a game fun.

It's not hard to write down what makes a good game. It's way harder to do this game! :O)

Everything has it's price. In Bungies case, I'm sure cashing in on Bungies equity granted its founders substantial fortunes. They could add Microsofts money on to that, and would still be allowed to do what they did, and let Microsoft take all the financial risks.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Not saying it wasn't a bad deal, but to suggest they did it while flush with money is likely wrong. Bungie seems like a company that was in it for the long term given their history. If they were financially stable there would be little reason to sell and lose control of the IP they'd spent years developing.

But I like sleazy women.

And I like thinking properly!





Ok, I'm not entirely averse to sleazy women either.

Sleazy women have ruined a number of games. Sadly, cnc is one of those games. When I first played red alert2 this year, I often found my eyesight drop to the floor as I got the feeling that westwood had a new audience: morons.

Another game is the entire bond series after goldeneye 64. Those games would be great if they cut out the constant fanny jokes.

Installing Unreal Tournament... (the first one)

:)


The Wii should be a nice refreshing take on video games.

We talking UK Fannies - the female hairy bits at the front?

or..

US Fannies - the Unisex Baldy bits at the back?

:D

I feel the biggest problem with PC games today is the dumming down and consolesque cut backs.

The control system for Oblivion on the PC is a good example of the latter. Its a dire way to control a game on the PC. Its still a good game, but they should have put a bit of effort into making a PC UI.

Nowadays I spend most of my 'Gaming' time playing older games that I missed first time around, I never... well very rarely buy a game on release, I try to wait until the rave reviews that games mags give for Eyecandy over substance have died down and the great unwashed have had their say on the actual gameplay.

Most game generes have been covered and done to death so we get CLone after Clone after Clone. Which is another reason I will buy the original game on budget, the game that spawned all the clones... well that reason and another is I am tightfisted Scot :)


Cheers

Garion

I find checking out current game releases a bit like going to the video store - most of it is miserable, cliched sh*t that I would be embarassed to e caught watching - some of it is moderately to well done (but doesn't interest me) and a very few are well done and do interest me.

It's all about 'buy-in' and for me that comes down to not just play mechanics but also what the designers have done in terms of the game world, characterisation and storyline.

I'm pretty sure I'd be classed as (ahem) a connoisseur.

the only thing that seems to have improved in the last ten years is the water in vdeo games. everyhting else pails in comparison

MadJack : You should check out Secret Files : Tunguska, if you haven't already. Translation into English has made the plot and characters seem a little cliched and sterile at times, but it's a quality adventure game which I think would appeal to "a connoisseur" such as yourself.

UberNerd, you liked CnC, so i presume you like RTS. The best RTS around now is Warhammer 40K: Dark Crusade. In my opinion it is the best expansion/standalone, since Brood War for Starcraft.

1. Doesn't require broadband.
2. Doesn't have cheap sleazy women.
3. It does make you think some, kinda like CnC.

Its just you... ;)

Seriously I can't see why we need umpty million Gaming Consoles... On the graphics side I agree that computers need to catch up a mite, but they are not optimized to blast models and textures out the pipe, they do other things as well... this is what slows them down...

But on the other side I don't see much originality in games... I suppose you ave to look for story.

Whenever hey have had an author involved in creating a game the result has been disasterous... the author only sees a very narrow outcome and if you don't follow the script the story goes awry.

Niven's Ringworld comes to mind. If you deviated too far from the script... it bit!

Other campaign RPGs come to mind. Freespace, you could fly around blasting things all you wanted but if you really wanted to get the incrdible weapons and ships you had to follow the plotline to get to better systems. Unlimited? not really. You had to follow the plotline to open the gates and provide mor emoney than just blasting bad guys!

Ah me!

Well.. author-driven games are often like that because the author is the focus... not the game.

The people making the game just adapt some half-assed plotline that the author tossed out. That will never turn out well.

It could be done, if the game devs would just tell the author what the game is, and how to write for it. Rather than the other way around.

Unfortunately I find that as with most other industries it's `appealing to the ego` that drives everything. The ego loves any form of separation, be it destruction or addiction or hatred or violence or whatever else. The increasing amounts of crap on the TV these days, it's all the same stuff, guns, bombs, explosions, killing, maming, raping, darkness, low mood, people being over serious, things repeating in some inescapable hell, It's all the same stuff, all ego-appeal. I think you'll find this will simply continue to be the trend as people dream up more and more sadistic ways to `entertain` the ego. Bring back the more `innocent` days of the Amiga, I say.

Go and watch some Amiga Demos/Intros and you feel a lot better! :O)

(Listen to AngelDaniel, hes a genius! ... Gaming follows tv)

Anyway I've written down two titles mentioned in this thread, but I doubt I'll go further than that.

Its great seeing the conversation here, people have different opinions. When I look at gaming forums everyone seems to support one thing, and shunt off the opinions of others who say mac/linux/wii/whatever is good. In a gaming forum it feels like theres some kind of social structure, where people with over 6000 posts and hardcore names lurk around arguing with everyone else. And in an argument no-one is willing to accept any points from an opposing audience. Example: "yes mac sucks, but at least it has good security. Plus they're better for graphics/film" then the 6000+ post guy comes along: "no noob. mac sucks completely!!1". Denying that there is ANYTHING good about mac or whatever subject.

People also seem to like winning arguments but not reaching any form of understanding or co-operating to find a conclusion that the other person might have some valid points. I should post here more often...

I'm currently playing Lego Star Wars 2, Broken Sword 'Angel of Death' and still hack in slash in Oblivion!

For me at the moment, gaming hasnt been any better! :D

Dabz

Gaming is as good as it's ever been. What's different? You're older.

So, if you read a boring book, you will say:"Its not the book, its my age"?

I play more and more old games not because i am getting old but because the diversity is gone.

They couldnt make a Warhammer with superior AI, turn based (otherwise you cant follow the rules) and as result deep gameplay. No, they made a Warhammer which would fit for CnC and Shooter players.

If you like Warhammer as it is then its okay, but whats about me? Years ago i could choose my world. Now i have to take what a guy from MTV tells me is cool.

There wasn't any diversity years ago either. The difference was that you were younger, less experienced, and easier to please. Now you're the old man, standing on your porch, yelling at the kids on your lawn about the old days and how great they were.

And the reason you keep going back to those old games, if I might be so bold, is because that was when you fell in love with gaming. So, yeah, of course those games hold a special place in your gaming soul.

It's like music. The music you were listening to when you first started to get laid will be the music you love for the rest of your life.

Huh? I havent yelled to anyone.

It looks like Uber-Nerd is bored because he cant find a game where he can blow something up without thinking properly (wth? xD).
Me think todays gaming is boring because i cant find a game where i have to think properly or cant find a new game with deep and original gameplay.

Our "problem" is not necessary a matter of age or experience.
You can find enough young people missing deep gameplay and enough "old" poeple which would like to blow something up.
My problem with gaming today is that the market went in a direction where AAA developers seem to combine both types of players at all cost and additionaly they take care about players average experience: "If 10 year old Jonny cant play it...." etc.

What i like: As more they streamline gaming as near we will come close to a point where more and more people wont care about GFX anymore...at least enough poeple to feed you. At that point they will consider you artist and they will listen to the old musik. Maybe 6-10 years.

Anyway,
MOO2 or Battle Isle's AI still kicks my arse, not in sweet memories, in reality.
I couldnt find a harder challenge in the stores and so i play these old games with cumbersome GFX and Sound.
Same for RPG. Oblivions Story wasnt realy fresh and i couldnt find another not already played RPG. So i started Arcanum.
There WAS more diversity if it came to gameplay.
You cant even buy a good Tank Simulator for PC.

Whom i am telling this? You are a bunch of console players. Go..out of my valuable sun:D

Most wanted game: "UO - Kingdom Reborn".

I have to agree with Warren.

LOL, but I disagree with that statement.

Garage is the most rediculous music i've ever heard.!

(Sorry, I mean it's "Not my taste"...)

Well I had an idea on a game but cant start it yet.(Technology not available). And since MOST people, whether they like cops or not, always watch when something goes down. Nothing like watching the cops arrest sombody ect. Make a game as realistic as possible. So here was my idea:

Picture San Andres, now take out the lead charecter. Now replace it with you, but your a cop. OK? Now, you go through police accademy, pass it. Its your first day. You put on the headset. You enter your new station. All officers now go roll call. The Sargent goes over what has to be enforced, areas of trouble, blah blah blah. You leave, go to your cruiser with your partner (helps you in the begining) Your in the cruiser now on patrol. Your radio chirps out calls ect. One goes out to you. You answer (with appropriate police code) You turn on the lights and sirens. You take care of the call. And now your probally saying, Their are alot of games like that. But here is what makes THIS different:

1)There are NO pre-programed missions. The game produces them automaticly. The people in the game, have their own AI, which then makes them produce theyre own problems. No two games are the same. Its all about variables ect.

2)English language is pre-programed (not available yet) You can have your own conversatios to charecters. You talk to them, they answer you back.

I have a ton of Ideas for this game, but somethings arnt available yet. If I was to make the ultimate cop game, I would have to use it online so real people can be the bad or good. And alot of my ideas are out their, they are just not all wrapped up into one. They only thing that stops me from doing this is, language and voice recognition, and human nature (which could take for ever to program) Anyhow, I have more to this idea, but I believe this may not be done till tech is update. Everyone is allways asking me about my job. I was hoping to make a game which would show people a day in a cops life. It may never happen.

Sounds like those crappy Police Quest games.

> Make a game as realistic as possible.

In that case, for every hour out on the "street" you will need to make the player do 2 hours of paperwork.

Trying to make a game realistic is a part of appealing to the ego, which says that the physical world and its appearance are totally real and that `things` really happen, especially bad things. Making a game realistic looking and acting just reinforces the idea that the physical world is real, which serves the ego's purposes, and all of the forms that this `realising` takes will be based on ego terms. Things blowing up, being shot, being killed, being destroyed, and it seeming to `be real` or have a `real effect` or being able to `really do it` draws people in to being hypnotized and deluded that such things are real.

It won't be too long before the world does have its holographic suites where things really do seem real and solid yet don't exist at all even on the physical level, and people will get all caught up in it and think it's really real and this will be the next big `wow, it seems so real` lure, tempting people to believe in the ego. And you might notice that the games that go for `realism` almost always also go for a theme of violence, destruction, separation, loss, lack, opposition, victimhood, etc... all themes of sepration that the ego loves to get lost in *because it adds to the sense of it being real*

An especially real-seeming explosion or an especially real seeming murder of some `opponent` is a great way to get psychologically involved with and caught up in the illusion that it is real. I'm surprised there aren't more totally vile disgusting `evil seeming` games out there, and I'm sure gradually there will be because people (and their ego's) keep gradually pushing back the barriers of what is enough. Nobody questions it because they only see small violations of their tolerance, but over time it all adds up and gradually things get darker and darker. That's where it's heading and it's not because it's a computer game, it's because it's based on egocentric philosophies. Ego really delights in torture and insanity.

So I say watch out for getting caught up in trying to make reality out of illusions. That's what the so called march of progress is all about. We start out living in a dream, based on separation, where nothing is real, and everything is fragmented, and then seek to build out of that things that seem to have consistency or can be controlled or made to seem like they really happen. Before you know it you're trying to make your graphics extra realistic or with extra detail or extra rendered or with extra realistic physics or behaving just like real life or with real life scenarios of war and terror. That isn't inspired, not at all. That's just taking the easy path of ego pursuit. It takes no real thought at all, no inspiration, no imagination. It gets darker and more confusing and more sadistic as it goes along - and generally speaking, more empty. These games get to be void of all meaning, they have no relationship to sanity or to Reality, they are dreams acting like reality so as to entire further dreaming. There is no drive to wake up or to be enlightened or to have a sense of spirituality or to be honest or to see things for what they really are. Indeed how can there ever be a game that doesn't deceive with smoke and magic?

Maybe one avenue games need to take is to stop taking themselves and their `reality` to dam seriously. At least funny games can, if not too sadistic, be fun. At least humor is a step towards `light` rather than darkness. Maybe we just need to laugh more?

I think we also should focus more on art. The purpose of art is supposed to be that you reveal some of the nature of True Reality or even create mystical insight based on the presentation of what you're doing and what it's saying on a subtle level. I think that artistic games that have their own style are more interesting than `realistic` games that just try to copy the real world.

Yeah, much like Sony buying out all these franchises to make them part of SCEA, and dumping them as PS1/PS2/PS3 exclusives. Then again, Sony didn't have their own first-party game developers like Nintendo or Sega did at the time, either. Microsoft DID have software developers who have done PC games for Windows and DOS, as well as the DirectX team, and Nintendo had Miyamoto, which is by far the most legendary designer known to man.

Now, Trip Hawkins and Steve Ballmer are just egomaniacs, they don't know how to design a game for the hardcore group, we all know that. Indie developers see a certain clientele, and then it's big corporations that want to bring that game franchise to an overall audience, and water down the quality in the process. Welcome to the "Millenium of Monopolies." Another thing to blame on G.W. Bush... Hai-yai-yai... :sigh:

Now there are just clones after clones after clones, they are all dark, boring, adiction oriented, technology focused, and that sucks, there are only a handfull of good games around the world.
The problem is that the game industry is only worried about money, if pornography sells then they are going to sell pornography (wich they actually do), if violence and darkness sells, they are going to sell that, they are like drug dealers, they dont care whay they sells as long as they sell, easy money, low risk.
There are some developers who make games because they like to create games, not clone them for money, we may place our hopes in them...

AgnelDaniel, i really like what you say, keep posting....

Clones are not new. The Commodore 64 had -droves- of clones released on it. However, over time, we only remember the classic good games.

This is true of any platform.

Not exactly as you think. Again, this was only part of it. I had a 12 page essay on just ideas alone. I have yet to not raise eyebrows to people who have seen the whole story. There are no missions. The game creates its own problems. Have you seen a real cop? Take real life, now stick it in game. This idea would be more of 'future cop' simulator than a game. And most of the programing is time consuming, but achievable. To create a single individual to have its own variables ex: police respect, what sets him off, smiles alot, does have temper with females etc. If I created a town that has every charecter have its own behavior trait, then this is achievable. I thought at one time to create a drop down list for you to choose from in order to talk to people, but I would litterly have to install a law book etc. The idea is different. Because we did it with the Sims (the game) I just have to amplify that, and change some variables. But like I said, I can't achieve some of these functions, because they arn't fully available yet. I could start a cheap one though. And if we thought some ideas wern't achievable, like 10 years ago, then we all would of thought John was crazy for the Naked Wars. And look how that came out. A master peice.

No thank you. I have enough of real life, with my real life. In my videogames, let me be a mushroom eating italian plumber who jumps on peoples heads.

Thanks Christian223. There's lots of viewpoints and most of them have merit.

I agree with your point too about making money. As I've begun to see in the business world, although some companies create products `for the love of it`, they more often than not will focus on what is profitable and seemingly in demand than what is actually a good product, especially if it is a bigger business. They are not really that interested in making a product that does anything other than get the money to come in. They could then just as easily substitute computer games for any other product and sell that. In the end it's all the same stuff when you look at it from that viewpoint. If you are in business and you really need to stay afloat with the right choices then unfortunately most of the time you have to find a demand and supply it, in terms of what the audience seems to want or what they will buy into, rather than what you would `like` to be able to do or what would be a great expression of your best efforts and ideas. Some of the best most fun games probably never see the light of day. Again it's an ego thing, the less meaningful the product is and the less important it is the happier the ego will be because it removes all real value and replaces it with ego values. These big-money companies are churning out crap based on getting the most sales which doesn't have much at all to do with innovation or anything else.

Look at FlameDuck's comment - it's more fun to play at being a plumber jumping on people's heads, than to give him a big gun and have him blow them to pieces with realistic blood splattering all over.

I think these problems begin in part when the people developing the product stop sticking to their guns and start adapting to the public. Instead of setting a new standard they become a mirror of what is already out there. It's totally shallow and absent of all meaning. It's easy, it takes no awareness and adds nothing to the mix. Business is all targetted at seeing what the audience seems to want and feeding it, rather than blowing minds with radical and possibly unpopular yet superior concepts. They go for the popularity vote and the majority of people buy into it. It's not just that companies make the bad games, there are also significant numbers of people who have the same mindset that buy into them. These companies couldn't be successful if the people would stand up and say no. But then, if they were saying no they'd also be saying yes to their own expression and creativity, which would make them less interested in being a passive recipient of what the bigwigs throw at them.

Years ago we thought about how much an advert in a magazine would cost and started a campaign while hoping the best.
Today, many times we already know how poeple react on certain events and we have the knowledge and tools to create predictable synergy effects.
As long FlameDuck is a social creature, its possible for me to make him want PoliceQuest so much, he would eat it.
And he wouldnt even notice that we targeted him, which for me is the very dangerous point.
Sure, it would be way to expensive.
After my experience my "free" will is not much more but a reflection of my enviroment. Some companies i worked with are now big enough to control my enviroment better every day.
Who knows? Maybe that cool Car Show featuring naked woman or men has been only created to raise your interest in cars? And once you like cars we sell some crap car games? You dont have to find a demand to supply anymore. If you are big enough, you create the demand. Maybe obvious for you, its not for the 12 year old.

Maybe diversity was the wrong word last posts but i feel todays gaming goes in an unhealthy direction.
I cant see "We're older" as answer, when you have to see guys in a game complaining that the game is boring while they are unable to quit.
I am quiet sure i still can tell the difference from addiction or fun.

Not every guy is as clever as FlameDuck or Angel.
The majority are hard working people (i.e they work with hand and shovel...brrr).If i am exhausted i dont like to hear about virtues and stuff. I go to a BG and do PvP.
Nowdays gaming sucks because it seems that in a near future most people dont know anymore that they could choose once between fastfood and a nice dinner.
I dont want to eat fastfood everyday only because its easier to produce that fastfood and then make the people eat it via a cross campaign on MTV, Magazines, Radio, Cinema and Internet. For me, thats the direction AAA gaming goes on PC. No clue how it looks like on consoles.

If there are naked women around, why would you care about the cars?

I get enough of the naked women?

Ok, maybe the cop theroy is boring to some. So what if we changed it with the fire dept. Im more or less leaning towards like a trainer-sort game. Take as many variables as possibles and apply to the game. Of course before I start it, I would have to get educated myself about the line of work. After the cop thing was to go through, and if succesful, then was going to lean toward the fire dept. Somebody suggested after my ideas to start a whole series called 'careers' If somebody wanted a job or get knowledge on a career, they could purchase a game/job of their choice. Who knows, maybe I'll start a plumber one too.

But this is using the assumption that games are easier to produce today then they were in the past. They really aren't. Comparing today's games to fast food is vastly unfair to the developers who work themselves like crazy to get them out the door. It is in no way easy or cookie cutter.

The DESIGNS might not be what you want but the work required to produce the final game is still very real.

*writesdown*: replace naked woman with naked ninjas.

I like Daves "careers" idea.
Wonder what kind of jobs or objects poeple would be most interested in. There are already many games of that kind out, all targeting kids.
Dont think i have seen a game simulating a job in a more realistic or matured way. I know there are many matured poeple dreaming about beeing a construction worker but what else?

What about a realistic simulation of disarming bombs?
You get valuable knowledge and you could save your chars and port it over to the next game called "chief surgeon". xD
If its a real simulation featuring accurate weapon types and detonation effects, every CS/CoD2 player would at least download the demo.
Needles to say it must have ODE support;)

You get It. Cool.Thats why I thought my original Cop idea would actually move. Totaly removing the kid aspect of it. I never had a day when something was going on, and had rubberneckers start waching me work. How can people be so interested yet bored. Those are two total oposites. I like the Chief Surgeon idea. Of corse for that it could take years of education. But if it sells, go for it. We have most of these games created, just scattered everywear. The Sims (for mood and behavior). Auto-police chases (Grand theft auto series) Using a varity of gadgets (Splinter cell). The only thing that we dont have that would make my ideas work is 1)voice recognition to the entire english language. And 2)Comlete or close to human nature and behavior. These 2 for a release soon, I would have to program a series of choiceable words, phrases, language, and behavior etc. But, I might start a cheaper version at the moment.

Ok so gaming sucks. So what do we do different? Is it possible for any game to be non-sucky? Is a game inherently dark and egotistical just by its very nature of `playing games` with you and creating challenges that don't really exist etc? Is a game only a game if we allow ourselves to be played? What would the experience be if there was no lack to be filled, no obstacle to overcome, no deception to unravel, no hero/heroin to save, no mountain to climb, no ego to enlarge? What is beyond that, and can it be expressed as software, and would you want it?

Jedi Knight.

Google for "Simulator". Do you even understand why people play games?

No offense, but you must know a lot of stupid people. Who on earth would *choose* to be a construction worker? Have a dangerous, physically exhausting, low pay, long hours job? Being a consrtuction worker is the kind of job you get when being a mailman, primary school teacher or fluffer didn't pan out too well for you. Being a construction worker is the easiest job you can get - you don't even need a GED - so there no reason to dream about doing it, it's not like it's a difficult job to land. (No offense to anyone who might be a construction worker, fluffer, teacher or mailman).

Dreaming about pouring concrete and rivveting steel? Talk about not having any ambition. Most people I know don't dream of working - they work for their dreams, and the chance to be able to retire to some nice warm place, and live the life they wanted all along, but couldn't because they where too busy working.

How about a realistic simulation of brushing your teeth, or how about a walk the dog simulator, or paint the fence game? You could even force people to litterally sit and watch the digital paint dry for 8 hours before applying the second coat in real-time. Speaking of which, how about a realistic sub game - with none of this sissy accelerated time malarky like you have in the Silent Hunter games. No it should litterally take you two weeks to reach the atlantic during which you're forced to eat crappy food and sleep uncomfortably.

There was such a "Surgeon" Game on C64.
All in all it was crap but found the idea interesting and so i bought it before it got censored. Make a better one;)

@Warren
I havent mentioned the past in that line.
Why i say its easier?
If you have to introduce an new story and gameplay, you will have more work and cost then if you sell Clone Nr.5

OK FlameDuck you obviosly dont care for simulators, but I think Takuan was just giving ideas. My neice might like polly pocket or some game thats girl related but doesn't suit us. But as everything evolves around us, new and improved things come along. We have to learn from them. If Takuans contruction idea was used, maybe somebody would pick up on that and come up with another idea. To stick with one idea, prevents others from being started. If years ago, flight sim might of been laughed at. Now look at it. And I'm not saying your not right, but to look at it in a negative way, just stops others from going with their ideas and not giving us a stepping stone to walk on.

Sounds like you need to get a Nintendo DS. :)

Surgeon = Under the Knife: Trauma Center.
Walking the dog = Nintendogs.
Brushing your teeth and painting a fence = WarioWare Touched.

And to get some other things out of the way:

Cooking = Cooking Mama.
Lawyer = Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney.
Mindlessly blowin' stuff up = NanoStray. :D (Also Metroid Prime Hunters and Starfox, though the latter is more strategy-based.)

"Jedi Knight."
Think that job is very bad payed.

"Google for "Simulator"...."
But how would you name that genre? EduSim? Simucator? FunSim?

"Who on earth would *choose* to be a construction worker? "
Before i went back into marketing i earned my money in customer support. Talked with around 10000 Gamers a year (realy have respect for poeple doing that for life time). Most time i asked what they like.
Because such a picture is always subjective i tried to get confirmation in a more objective way by asking people from game magazines or managers i met (i am a pest if it comes to games).
There ARE many poeple doing a 4 hour transatlantic flight with auto pilot turned on within MS Flight Sim.
And there are people earning big money and dream about driving a digger. No, they wont like to do it all the time. They are just curious or want to drive a thing with power.

As for the Sub Sim:
What if that three weeks of "Gammelfahrt" in a sub sim would be simulated? You could play cards, have to cook, talk with that guys, repair some stuff.
Poeple wont buy that sim to hunt ships, they would like it to have multiplayer fun in the boat. Someone logs in, enters the boat as like hes coming from the bridge.
Even a market system could be implemented. They trade Cigarettes, Shoes, play Dart or Chess, hear old music, whatever...
Personaly i like the idea to play cards online while every second a commander could yell "Destroyers":D

Maybe you say it would suck, me say that nobody has tried it and its more and more unlikely that they will.

Btw. my knowledge is realy outdated if it comes to consoles. It seems that Nintendo goes a more inspired way?
That Wii Dojo was quiet fun to whatch. Wonder if that controller is that accurate.
Do you think other consoles will get something similar to that fancy Wii controller?

Awsome Takuan, if it wasnt for guys like you we'd still be playing Atari. Like your sub idea. Im glad we see eye to eye on it. Trade cigs, Chess, etc. Maybe I can e-mail Red for his Subs (LOL) I do like the ideas. And your right, it might never get to be anything. But to think how far you can go is definetly a fun journey.

lol..hope he will finish his sub one day.

I have one.

Doesn't matter. The perks of the job would be worth it.

No it doesn't. Just because I prefer playing games that are fun (as opposed to realistic), shouldn't prevent someone else from making a boring simulation.

So kinda like a boring version of Puzzle Pirates? If you want to cook or play cards that badly, why not do it with your family rather than some stranger on the internet?

I'm sure they have (Puzzle Pirates is a pretty good example, so is Second Life, Furcadia and A Tale In The Desert). You probably just haven't heard of them because they're not mainstream. Ironic considering the situation, wouldn't you say?

Sorry flameDuck, I didnt mean you. I meant in generalty. I guess I should of said that. Sorry again.

I understand that, but it's still not true. If you wish to develop a game that does not have mainstream appeal, you cannot expect to acheive a mainstream market. People who play games are not a homogenous demographic. Hell. Even people who play the same game are not homogenous (just visit any MMO forum for proof).