How Microsoft shot themselves in the foot

Again.

Slashdot... some comments and a usable summary.

Articles:
Robert McLaws: Windows Vista Edition
A sneaky change in Windows licensing terms
http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/193300234

They are just barely crossing the line here. Unfortunately the average user still isn't affected for now, which I find rather interesting.
Since the stereotypical 99% (probably much less in reality) of computer users don't change their motherboard, buy computers with pre installed Windows, and have no idea what a virtual machine is, they still probably won't care.

I'm going to assume that that sort of assumption is why they don't consider this to be unwise.
Hopefully this will get more attention than they expected.

Every half decent Linux distro (heck, even my DS...) now does two things that Windows Vista does not and Windows Vista now has one firm reason for me not to upgrade.
It also seems that Samba is capable of more connections than the real Windows networking stuff in Vista Home Basic.
(And, just out of curiosity... is XP also limited to only sharing with 10 network devices? It seems weird that Vista Ultimate has that limitation, so I am hoping it's a flaw in the code and not a slightly less restrictive arbitrary limit).

What a way to sell software, hm?
Instead of developing new features for the more expensive versions, just severely botch the cheaper ones with arbitrary limitations.
Seems a lot like a demo to me, except that demos are free.

Oh well.


*Whistles*


Err... enough images. (Too bad. I was hoping to put in a cool Yoda one)
Throw on the kindling; Let's see if we can keep this going until the release!

Hah,

Its the ordinary users (ie not us), who suffer, not microsoft.

They can't possibly be serious about this?

What happens if my motherboard dies and I get a new one then buy a new gfx card? Vista won't be accesible?

What I love is the insistence that Vista equipment MUST support DRM... does this mean I have to insert a real CD everytime I want to run a program I have installed??? It does on the Vista betas at work! I hate to tell MS this but the POS application they want ported and accessible by MS Great Plains (aka Great PAINS) somehow wants me to insert the CD for Great Plains at odd moments!

And the fun part is the NCR crap does not even have a CD attached usually (USB Bootable to load an image on the 2gig Disk on chip!)

I HATE VISTA

Its stupid anyway. Im one of those ppl who do a clean instal at least twice a year. So whats going to happen. Is it going to refuse to instal on the second clean instal?

I'm suprised it has taken so long to lock down the PC. Anonymous applications and pirated media belong on free/hobby operating systems.

Oh darn, they just set their boots too heavily on my porch for their own good.

I'm just a pretty ordinary end user, and I've been wincing lately over just how much validation I am being asked to tolerate with XP. It is already excessive in my view as I paid a serious amount of cash for the copies I have installed on assorted machines as it is. I went without a lot of nice hardware to pay for that too.

To get the most out of Vista seems likely to require me to buy better hardware, however there's a snag, I am seriously not too interested in the most recent hardware in the main, as in my view it's pretty poor. So I am rather unlikely to go there, and as such I won't need vista as badly as I guess they think I will.

So, given all this new jackbootism, and the fact that I'm already reluctant to go where they think I might with hardware, I'm even more likely now to stay with XP, and, once they try to renege on the deal, or cease to support their own product as they like to put it, I may well be just about ready to turn in my keyboard for ever anyway.

How is that end result supposed to help further development of anything in the industry?

There does come a time when a paying end user will buck at the jackboot across the back of the neck, which was meant to combat the non paying end user. I'm already getting the feeling it's too much to be bothered with right now. I bet that over time, others will quite possibly feel it too. I mean who's damn computers are these? I know I paid for them, so it sure looks like they're mine, and I've absolutely no intention of changing that view.

I'm really not too interested in any of the other OSes around, but might (if forced like this) just dumb down to an apple laptop of some sort, for email and trivial stuff like that. When that happens, I got plenty of other things I can do to fill the gap that NOT "messing about with computers" would leave.

I've already thought recently of dumping the net and computers as it is, this can only help it happen. A rather dumb industry stance is all this. I've never known an industry make downtake more attractive than uptake before. Astonishing.

Hopefully there will be solutions. Every DRM/Lock/Protection-shit get's bypassed over time. It worked this way in the past and will in the future. Maybe it will not as easy as install Daemontools, maybe we need a piece of extra hardware to use cracked software, but there will be a way...

Don't get me wrong, I buy software that I really like or use for business. But to evaluate an app or play a game for an evening or two before dropping it I'll never throw 50€ out of the window, basta!

Instead of mining the path they should care that people buy software cause they want, not being forced to. E.g. providing extra benefits for legalized products is a great way to ensure this (ability for online play, daily virus updates, free content for registered users etc...)

Just my 2ct

I think MAC lover growing inside me...

I'll be keeping my XP running for some time... I had already decided that Vista is not a necessary upgrade for me.

Another M$ Licence. This time for Flight Simulator X: german http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/79416

I wonder if that means two installs serial or parallel...

I actually came to the same conclusion as well, some time ago just as you.

Other than being 'pretty', vista doesnt really show me much.. XP still recognizes most of the devices I plug into it, and it still does what I need it to (and then some).

Once you get all the tweaks out of the way, its a decent o/s.

Although, I must point out that XP home only allows a max of 10 network connections to it, so these restrictions are really no supprise move from M$

I don't see anyone else heading out to make anything better, 99% of linux's are just alternatives that play catch up to windows features and/or have guis that aren't even as good.

Mac doesn't have a soul.

Where am I to turn? I would make my own OS if I knew how. I've got some pretty nice ideas for one too, from an interface standpoint, and from a useability/feature stand point. I just haven't found anyone capable of implimenting my ideas in a linux or even a brand new OS. Anyone who does know the ins and outs of that, doesn't want anything to do with whole new ideas, even when they admit they are 100 times better and easier to learn to use for a complete noob.

So, we are left with thousands of windows clones, which can't run the same software, and the king sitting on it's hill laughing at everyone flitting around below them. You'll all upgrade eventually. Or you won't play any new games. Maybe not for the first few years... but eventually no one will support you.... so you either make a stand and do something different, fight MS on it, or roll over and take it while bitching about it....

Macs could be great if they would concentrate on improving their products (hardware and software wise) and eliminate the downsides instead of brainwashing their audience.

Never testetd this, but there's another M$ like OS:

http://www.reactos.org/

lo-tekk:

Good lord, that looks rather tempting, apart from the bit about it not being quite ready for everyday use yet.

I wonder how long one might have to wait for it to become ready for everyday use?

Actually I think what we really want is one that is NOT so MS like, if you see what I'm trying to say here!

I'd really like to avoid ending up with a Mac if at all possible.

{edit}
I've read up a little more and as well as being MS like it's also very Linux like, so that's about as much as I want to do with it. what a pity, it looks a lot like Linux via the back door frankly. I guess that (gradually), It's bring on the macs time. Never ever thought I'd say that in my lifetime, but there it is, can an oatmeal diet be far away? :O(
{/edit}

Just put this EULA on your check/cheque:

"The recipient of this check agrees that its single transfer from the purchaser concludes the transaction. This check may not be further transferred (i.e. deposited into the recipient's bank account, cashed, etc.)."

Free Vista! ;)

MAC is heavy into DRM as well..... I think there is a LINUX FULLTIME in my future!

BOYCOT VISTA!!!

That's what demos are for. It's precisely because of people who "evaluate" software that developers will get away with things like this. If this becomes the prevailing argument against moves like this, the heavy-handed developer will win every time.

Give me a break, Windows comes on nearly every PC preinstalled... how much can this possibly make them... most noobs will just buy a whole new PC if the OS dies.

Heh! There goes my copy of Vista.

Asta la VISTA baby.... What are they playing at?

Most of us here from what I hear re-install the OS from time to time to keep things fresh. So, if my hard drive dies, I have to buy another copy after the first time?

Right, well, I think I'll be waiting for a Cracked Vista release then. If im going to be criminalised, whats the point in trying? I'm not going to pay for something twice/three times because Hard drive manufacturers cant put the same quality in that they used to!





LMFAO :)

I think its better to wait till Jan or whenever its released and we can get the real story.

This is true. They haven't completely finalized anything yet.

But until then, it's fun to complain at Microsoft.

No matter how 'bad' them make it, everyone and their grandma will still be running it a few years from now. Supposedly over 80% of all of Microsoft's OS installs are either through corporate volume licensing contracts, or bundled OEM installs with new computers. they are still going to make insane amounts of cash, no matter how much it blows for everyone involved. Their way or the highway, and in todays world you pretty much HAVE to run MS if you have a business, for the simple sake of interoperability. That said, I forsee a great many people holding on to XP for dear life.

Unfortunately but....Yep...pretty much....

"I think its better to wait till Jan or whenever its released and we can get the real story."

That's insane. Best to make a decision now based on incomplete information and a rabid (perhaps fanatical) hatred of Microsoft.

Every person I know (including business folks) use software they don't paid for. Most of them legalize their Top10-Apps later on, but using copied software isn't a thing few bad people do - it's what everyone does (maybe you don't, but then you're an absolute exception).

Only using an app makes it popular (take Word/Excel as an example), and popularity turns into money in the long run. Example: We're running about 500 MS-Office licenses at work (legally bought, of course). Do we really need to buy an expensive package like office just for some simple letters and calcs? Unfortunately, we need to - cause all employes use MS Office at home and are not willing to learn a different system at work - and be sure that 90% of them don't paid for their private version.
If MS would have made it impossible to used a copied Office 15 years ago, most people would use OpenOffice today. But instead people started using MS-Office not cause they wanted this in particular, but their friends got a copy for them.

And Microsoft knows this. They will never sue private folks for this. If they would start this, most people would switch immediately to Linux and OpenOffice to save hundreds of dollars - and business will follow after that. If they really tend to make it impossible to use copied software, they would dig their own grave.


Anyway, that's my experience how the software business works - maybe I'm completely wrong with this..who knows...

Jake

I reckon Jake's pretty bang on. Makes plently of sense. Microsoft are bloated and smart, many monkeys makes little work -- that is to super secure stuff.

XP is all I need for the next years to come.

Why use Vista so soon:
-DX9 Games run 10-15% slower
-The user has even lesser rights
-The Aero-GUI uses tons of Ram and CPU power
-The OS is more limited and expensive
-You need special hardware and drivers to run it
-The OS is more buggy than XP when it comes out.

im just glad blitzmax has a linux version! and i can run most stuff using wine. getting ready to switch soon. plus i think linux could do with a good batch of indie games as not that many mainstream ones seam to come out

To be fair, many of these claims are being made against beta software. At least wait until it ships before proclaiming it slow or bloated or buggy.

For the record, many of these same claims were made against XP before it came out.

Heh. Microsoft's security record combined with Microsoft's push for DRM = Everyone can run whatever software they want on your computer, except for you.



Of course, technically a 'release candidate' is exactly that, something that's seriously being considered to BE the final version. If that's not what Microsfot thinks of it, they should still call it a beta and not an RC.

While I would agree with some of those remarks, what has happened here is not too uncommon in other software products.

It's fairly often that development tools are released in several tiers of varying price (each differentiated by what features have been crippled or removed).

Where Microsoft hasn't really shot themselves in the foot here is by releasing "budget" level versions of the operating system. As eluded to, the average joe-user isn't going to know the difference until they get burned with the need to accomplish something that can't be done with the tier they purchased. The average joe-user isn't going to see any other option but to upgrade to the next tier. (If they're smart, they'll return the software where they bought it and pay the difference)

Warren is absolutely correct.

I'm not a Microsoft lover by any sense of the word. I've seen them destroy great (albiet naive) companies with their shrewd business practices. But, they're certainly not going anywhere. In fact, I'd argue that stifling them doesn't make them weaker at all. They have also been really good about giving away certain products lately (such as the entry-level versions of Visual Studio).

The reason why the OS is so bloaty is BECAUSE of all of the configurations it has to support. Granted, there are some eye-candy things in there (which I typically shut off), but a lot of it is a catalog of drivers and supporting software people have come to expect to be there right out of the box... Something the Linux camp will always be playing catch-up on.

I find the figure about DX9 games interesting. Is this because it will have to be emulated through whatever version of DX (MDX?) ships with Vista? Considering most of the processing time spent in most games is in the hardware, I wonder how accurate that statement will be in practice. In other words, if games under DX9 run in such a way that do not max it out, how much of an actual impact is 10% through the emulation layer?

Most likely, they'll get the basic starter version preinstalled with the new computer they buy (after all. that's the cheapest version for the PC manufacturer to bundle)... Except many people will end up needing to go out and buy the next version up. End result is that MS ends up getting money twice for the same user/computer.

You've also got to look at the point of business/school leaver etc training. Many courses are based on MS products, or the application at the centre of the course is based on a MS operating system (SAGE, AUTOCAD)!

All the top applications will eventually move to the newer MS OS, which means all training will move over, which in turn, everyone needing to use it will use a MS OS!

Thats how I see it anyhow

Dabz

>What a way to sell software, hm?
>Instead of developing new features for the more expensive
>versions, just severely botch the cheaper ones with
>arbitrary limitations.
>Seems a lot like a demo to me, except that demos are free.

It's called nagware... Pay more and the nags go away!

Andy

When I read such stuff, I normally ask myself if they test other OS as well or if they are just morronic and assume "more eye candy for no cost".

OSX RAM need raised dramatically within OSX only.
Vista on the other side does not need much more than XP if you set it to the same UI, which what many will most likely do (as they already disable Luna on XP for "niceness reasons" because they don't like eye candy in OS)

Especially the last 3 points are totally blubb unless they only refer to 64Bit which was mentioend to get far stricter right management. The 32Bit works with quite similar hardware and driver as XP does and does for example not enforce the driver to be WHQL certified.

I've been using Vista since Beta 1 as second OS and so far, my largest problem was and is that the there are no mobile versions of the graphics drivers and that I thus can not modify the energy settings which costs me some performance.
But after all, Vista directory reaction time etc is WORLDs above the one from XP Pro SP2! (it reacts instantan, not 2-3 seconds as XP does), the new possibility in the adressbar when navigating the hard disk make many otherwise annoying things so much faster.

I agree that Vista initially (assumed RC1 state) is no solution for gamers. But new OS never have been after all as the drivers need 1-2 years to be optimized enough ... was not different with XP after all.
But for general users, Vista is a large step forward, as it is the only Windows version where you actually can work in a user account and use the "execute as Admin" functionality. XP Pro offered that as well but actually it only switches part of the stuff to Admin which means some apps still deadly bug and won't work. Especially those apps worked like a dream in vista and I can't wait to see Vista run at xp speed or higher.

Dont worry..

In Asia some people usaly sell vista for a COLA :)

Its kind of makes a tripp to asia worth while.

i mean why buy it from store then one can get a travel ticket and some vista.

(kidding)

Does this effect me getting my pirated copies from asia, my brother inlaw is good for that ;)

I got XP from Malay. didnt even cost a coke actually.

Im going to buy a MAC as my next PC, what will they stuff down my throat??

What would become of windows if we actually got to pick an OS to go with our PC instead of good ol windows packed inside the box, would windows have 98% of the market share then?

Answer: of course they wouldnt , it might be like 40% instead, someones making a killing.

What if LYNX was packed in the box and pre-installed on every single PC in the shops.

EVERY SINGLE PC IN New Zealand has windows pre-installed on it, I have never seen a PC with anything else on it in shops here.

It is also standard that if you buy a second hand PC that the old owner keeps the orginal Windows disk (Probably to sell seperately on trademe), there are literally hundreds of thousands of illegal copies of windows in New Zealand ,its a big epidemic here.

I remember when XP first came out here, it was like a thousand dollars+ ,it was cheaper to buy the whole computer package, this is a big encouragement for pirate's

Bear in mind that 99.99999% of computer users don't care about having a choice of operating systems. They just want to turn their new computer on and have it work. Windows accomplishes that. If it comes preinstalled, hey, all the easier!

> What would become of windows if we actually got to pick an OS to go with our PC instead of good ol windows packed inside the box

Windows would still dominate. The instant someone found out that all the software they were used to does not work on OS XYZ they would return it and get windows. It's the old chicken or egg problem.

You really can find PCs without an OS preinstalled. Other than in the Pre-M$-x86-exclusive-OS-contract area (when every PC HAD to be sold together with windows), manufactors today are allowed to sell machines without OS. They are cheaper. you may buy a new machine with simple hardware (onboard gfx etc.) for 200$, then add Unbuntu. Not a lot of money. This machine's even cheaper than XP or Vista.

The sooner or later we will be forced to update to vista, as we were forced to use XP recently. This was really ruff. Microsoft pubished some of the most fatal security vulnerabilities in Win98 that have not been public so far: just to force people to BUY xp. In return, many software developers stopped support for win9x, eg: Zonealarm, some Antivirus Apps.

And most of you said to us win98ers: "C'mon, move on, or get out of my way" and so on.

I think we should concentrate on ONE desktop linux Distro. The more people will use it, the higher will be the support.
Drapper seems to be a serious alternative.

That sounds a little tin foil hatty. Any links or proof of that?

Until you can walk into Bestbuy/walmart/target/whatever, grab a random computer game from a shelve, go home and shove it in your CD-drive and have it instantly *work*, windows isn't going anywhere.

Like it or not, windows is here to stay.

Any 'perfect emulation' isn't a magic bullet either -- OS/2 did perfect Win16 emulation. IT was great, except the direct6 result was that developers didn't bother to write a native OS/2 version since writing for windows meant you could write just one version and run it on both platforms. Then microsoft switched to the new Win32 API, and OS/2 was left in the dirt since it couldn't run any of those programs. Oops.

what about this?

edit: no wait! that was nonsense. this is more like it.

http://news.com.com/No+fix+for+critical+hole+in+Windows+98,+ME/2100-1002_3-6082307.html

> what about this?

A damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If MS had not mentioned it was applicable to the older systems they would have been slammed for it, when they do mention it is applicable to the older systems they get slammed for that too. I'm also not of the opinion that they have to keep coming out with (edit) patches to (end edit) older systems since someone somewhere is still using them, which I realize makes me an evil person.