I would use C#

If it wasn't for all the bullcrap "Help" files that are nowhere near answering your questions. Microsoft's help sucks bad. Yes, worse than Bmax.

microsoft's documents are one of the best ive ever seen... I thought it was pretty simple to learn c# using their help documents.

im in no rush to learn C# - its supposed to be real handy
for making editors and other apps..and some folks reckon
its better than C++, jst as fast and easier to learn..well, im
guessing most this is jst opinion..and quite often when folks
say something is jst as fast - its cuz theyre running a simple
game or app on a 3ghz system....for these people, optimised
code is simply code running on a faster processer..heh

oooh!..im sorry :p

[im guessing this might lead to a flood of c# loving hippies,
attacking me..aaaaaaaagh!]

[rant]

It was designed to be a business language first and foremost. Due to pressure from the gaming community they are 'opening' it up for game development.

It's a tool and like all tools fit for certain purposes, yeah some people use a screwdriver to bang in nails but it is not inteneded for that purpose.

Also be careful not to jump on the MS are sh*t band wagon.

I find the MSDN to be an extremely useful resource.

[/rant]

I use vc6, and i have used the dxsdk, both are very good
examples of quality work coming from microsoft.
Theyre docs and the MSDN are probably the best ive
ever seen..

Do i like the company? no!..
- do i think the world is better place because them,
heh..that would be a NO! :p
Will windows users go to hell when they die? quite probably.

;)

@XmlSpy - The microsoft docs are real "dry" and technical, but they are good( for the most part ). If you are looking for a c# tutorial, I recommend the one at http://www.csharp-station.com/Tutorial.aspx .

I'd like to put my own tutorial(s) up on www.devcrunch.com , but ... we'll just have to see how it goes.

Docs and MSDN are great. My only problem with them is that the knowledgebase always return me crappy Babelfish-pages everytime, so I have to change the language to english for each page. Anyone knows a way to make this fixed? I found none...

Yeah. Look up SerializationException. "An error occured during serialization". Brilliant. MSDN is as useless as a cock flavoured lollipop.

The help in the Express editions is second to none. Hit F1 and it does a local help search, an online MSDN search, and searches several websites with huge message board archives for your keywords - it then shows all of those results to you in an easy to navigate format.

It's absolutely the greatest help system I've ever seen.

My GF must like useless things :P

Was that based on his experiences with MSDN, or lollipops?

OK, so:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpref/html/frlrfsystemruntimeserializationserializationexceptionclasstopic.asp

Looking at that help link for SerializationException, it looks like it contains the basic information. Let's click the link for "see SerializationException Members". Hey look, a member variable called "Message" that describes itself as "Gets a message that describes the current exception."

Huh. Looks pretty informative. I'll bet that if you looked at that member variable when the exception occured, it would give you more detail as to specifically what went wrong during serialization since I'm guessing that more than one thing might go wrong.

Anyway...

Yeah, why does everyone say C# is better for making apps and editors with? What's so special about it?

Didnt know they still made those anymore :/

I used VC6 DXSDK 7, and I find the C++ langauge documentation to be very very good.

I think the DX documentaion was aimed at a higher understanding than I had, but was still highly documented.
Im with most people on the "Lets kill Bill", bandwagon, but his language platforms are normaly very well documented, and have lots of online articles.

[quote]
What's so special about it?
[quote]

Does auto garbage collection and is type safe amongst other stuff

Not to mention the whole Visual Studio package. Microsoft didn't originally have the game designer in mind, unlike Blitz. Of course, VC++ is by far the best for this, but C# is easier to code in. Of course, don't expect a C#-programmed game to run any faster than a Blitz game. Outside of that, C# doesn't have the same OOP feature, either, so don't expect much, especially since you have to program around that pain in the butt .NET structure half the time. That's why I reverted back to Visual Studio 6.0...

I've never understood why stuff like .NET takes up gigs and gigs of your harddrive space. I guess the auto garbage collection doesn't apply to itself.

> That's why I reverted back to Visual Studio 6.0...

Hooray, I was always a VS6.0 fan too. :)

I think that VS.net 2003/2005 is the best development platform out there. Keep in mind that I *am* a Microsoft Certified Solution Developer and get paid hansomely to write MS Desktop and Web applications. The help files *do* suck at times, but that's why God invented Google. Now: That's my day job...

At night I'm an avid Mac enthusiast (talk about split personalities). I would LOVE to use Mono to do C# programming on my Mac but I haven't found any development environments that come close to VS.net. I've heard that MonoDevelop is pretty good, but I can't find a version for Mac yet.

In answer to the question: "What makes C# so special?"

C# embodies the OOP concept. I would even say it comes close to perfecting the OOP concept. Plus, the API is easier to use than Java, and, for windows apps, it runs faster and leaves a smaller footprint than Java does.

And it's not just for business programming anymore:

For game programming in Windows, I've been playing around with C# and TV3D: http://www.truevision3d.com/home.php
It's a pretty nice 3D engine. The free download version just puts a watermark on your screen while the app runs, the registered version isn't really that expensive either.

-j9t

It's not that hard to understand, really. It's big. There's tons of code in there and it's a huge library.

Eclipse?

Ah but Eclipse is just a code editor. VS.net has that lovely GUI editing feature.

There really isnt anything even remotely like Visual Studio.
I tried finding something like it when I had Linux as my main Desktop for about 3 months, but the code editors out there are a laugh. I got so frustrated by it I changed back to Windows just so I could work with VS again :p

Seriously, non-windows platforms are getting nice, but the lack of decent software still make them no more than a monumental waste of time.

For Java apps with a VS type feel I use the netbeans IDE, not as nice but pretty close. I have not tried the new gui designer it includes but it sounds great.

Well you're entitled to your opinion.

As you are to yours. However, I'm curious as to why you think he's wrong. Do you know of better UI editors than the ones that Microsoft provides?

Then you can probably dual-boot like the rest of us, whatever rocks your boat. For me, it's BlitzMax in Linux, Blitz 3D and Visual Studio 6.0 AND sometimes VS 2005 in Windows. All in all, it's all based on the type of application you wish to create, and which platform you want to create it on, or wherever that application works best on. That should cover that. As for C#, that's a language that, too, is only good for just a few types of applications.

That's silly. It's a language. Use it for whatever you want.

Yeah, you're right. I basically have separated different types of languages to program in for different types of programs to create with them. Like Blitz for doing light arcade games and screen savers, Visual Basic for doing CAD-style applications, maybe some clicky-type games once in a while, C# may be good with some business apps mainly. I mean, it's all about what language you feel most comfortable with regarding what type of program you wish to design. Just pays to have that diversity in software design and engineering, I guess.

Lets see your screen savers then!

Wow! Net Beans for the Mac is pretty sweet. Because of the Java Bridge in OS X the Swing controls look like regular Mac controls. None of the old ugly purple crud. I've going to have to play around with this a while.

-jim

I think "SerializationException" is fairly self expressive. For exceptions, there is usually a bit of assumption that the developer who's utilizing the components that raise it knows the context in which the exception might occur.

Typically, if the description is general, the error itself is pretty general (or caused by some unhandled issue), or clear enough in context to the code that's raising it.

On the other hand, if you're not sure what Serialization is, or the code that's producing it, then this probably isn't the most clear description.

There's a slight difference between documentation of the specifications and examples. In a perfect world, examples are given in the documentation. In terms of priority, the specifications are usually higher.

As someone mentioned above. If you're struggling with a concept, do a google search. Odds are someone has had the same struggle.

Erm ... no, it gives you no idea what went wrong beyond a general "serialization error" message. Serialization errors are notorious for being a complete pain to diagnose, to the point where several third party tools exist for that purpose alone.

I've always had mixed feeling about MS help - the contents are usually accurate (and sometimes useful) if you're looking up something specific (like a property, or member), but it's usually pretty useless if you want to find out how to actually do something (like how to serialize a class :-)

At runtime? Yes, it will. At runtime, that field will be filled in with a specific message telling you what went wrong.

I stand corrected. When you dig down the exception stack it does indeed give you more info (in .Net 2). Never realised that :-)

.NET rocks. :)

bold statement! heh

I'm with Warren. .NET rocks.

I'm learning .NET stored procedures and UDTs in SQL2005 right now and EGAD that's powerful stuff right there.