Codersworkshop offline??

Sad

t3K|Mac

ok. close this thread. sorry i was blind...

JustLuke

The other thread seems to have vanished. However, a certain snakey announcement makes it pretty clear why they've closed the forums. I reckon that there'll be quite a few disappointed and angry people wanting to vent today, so it makes sense that they would close CW in order to minimise the abuse they must surely be expecting.

Barnabius

Yup. A lot of people will me rather disappointed. See Graham's new look site at:

http://www.squeakyduck.co.uk/

Tobo

Rob Buckley

I was quite looking forward to seeing Cobra - Seems such a shame. Idigicon are a very strange company

#10

There will be another version of Cobra, if you read properly....

Ricky Smith

#11

Seems a strange decision given that there are so many potential customers just waiting with credit card at the ready.
One can only assume from this that they do not consider that the product is currently good enough to become a viable alternative for any of the current indy programming languages like Blitz3d etc.
Shame.

#12

>> Seems a strange decision given that there are so many potential customers just waiting with credit card at the ready.

Problem with this is they're precisely that - potential customers. It seems fairly clear that they've done a deal with an education authority somewhere for wonga upfront or on a contract. Can't blame him for that.

Anyway, it'd just be another language on our hard disks for most of us to never write a complete game in... :)

#13

Fine, I will bring the quote here.

More info regarding Cobra products outside LE will be posted to this site shortly.

#14

Absolutely priceless.

JustLuke

#15

I'm enjoying imagining Powermousey and the rest of the CW Ritalin kids frothing at the mouth with impotent, fanboy rage, so I'm not complaining.

#16

Cygnus,
We all saw the post, but there's been quite a few of those from Graham over the years.

Things not to do No. 3,889,211,456 - Hold breath while waiting for a Cobra announcement to be posted shortly..

If it comes, it comes. If it don't, it don't. Do something else...

#17

JustLuke - yeah, I must admit that amusing thought crossed my mind. They can't even bitch on planet CW. Hehe.

#18

I think they are twitching madly, lying on the floor! :)

Personally, I'm happy with BlitzMax.

#19

I like Max too. Just bought my copy.

#20

"Therefore we have decided that the best way forward for Cobra is to re-target it as an educational tool, aimed at schools, colleges and their students. This way we can build on the experience that Idigicon has in this field, and get Cobra more widely recognised."

Reading between the lines, I think Idigicon did not think the product was ready for the market. By making it an "educational tool" and not for professionals, they're leaving room for bugs, errors, or inconsistencies in the program. If it's an "educational" product, at the end of the day, they can chalk it up as part of the "educational" experience.

Think about it logically. Other programs that are ready for the pro market have no problem marketing themselves as BOTH educational software and professional development software: Virtools, Director, etc. So to say that it should only be marketed as educational software means that they felt it was not suitable to be used commercially.

My respect grahamk because I can only imagine how much work went into this software and I'm happy for him that it's mostly done.

#21

I'm wondering if "Smiffy" is right.

A switch to an educational product does signify a slight problem. Almost like features of Cobra were stripped out as they were not working correctly or they just took up too much processing power to be viable to be combined.

Maybe, they are buying time with the full version - still needs a lot more work on it - so release what is working as a stripped down ('LE') version.

EDIT:
We all like "Graham" - these posts are not digs at him or Cobra - just our over-excitement for Cobra.

#22

Does this mean the National Curriculum textbook will be
'Programming Games from Scratch' by Krylar?

#23

Single post here to clear up one 'thought' which comes up from the above (anything else I'll post on my own site).

The decision is not based on the quality of Cobra, more the direction Idigicon now wants to go with it, ie. the area where they feel they can best exploit the product.

Just look at the numbers, a few thousand developers around the world, or the potential of every UK school for the next x years! It's all in the maths.

I'm waiting on Idigicon for an OK, before I post more info on my site (and for them to post something on the remains of CW).

The Caffeine Kid

#24

Makes sense. Idigicon's niché has been in their educational products for a long time, and it's where they have been able to make the money to continue as a company from what I see.

I'm sure having a Learning Edition doesn't mean the end of a standard release of Cobra - it's a matter of bums on seats and covering your costs, and I can see why this has happened.

Amon

#25

Well, They must know what they're doing Graham, I think.

I'm just going to wait till info about non LE versions of Cobra comes out.

I thought Cobra would have had a business model much like Garage Games has for their Torque products eg. an Indie License, commercial license, Free updates up to a certain milestone etc.

I'll just wait and see what happens. :)

Good luck with what you do though Graham.

#26

A specific version of Cobra (Cobra Learning Edition – CobraLE) has been developed for this purpose

The decision is not based on the quality of Cobra, more the direction Idigicon now wants to go with it, ie. the area where they feel they can best exploit the product

So, does this mean some kind of exclusive educational deal that prevents the sale of the full version Cobra to us?

I think people want to clarify if we are getting our hands on the full version of Cobra.

Can we (us lot) even buy the 'LE' version?

EDIT:
We all like "Graham" - these posts are not digs at him or Cobra - just our over-excitement for Cobra.

#27

Yeah, taking the mickey a little bit but best of luck Graham.
P.S. Can we get an LE version?

#28

P.S. Can we get an LE version?

If you are at a UK school, I believe that will be the case, but that isn't my side of things. All the education stuff is in the hands of Idigicon.

If people can ask this sort of thing over at squeakyduck, it would be much better. This is after all a blitz forum, and I would like to respect that fact.

#29

Just look at the numbers, a few thousand developers around the world, or the potential of every UK school for the next x years! It's all in the maths.

Surely, the maths are better if a few thousand developers can buy it as well as the schools?

I don't see why it will take further time to confirm if us lot can buy this or not. I'm hoping "Graham" hasn't sold out to Idigicon.

Still, if the money is good - you can't blame "Graham" - it's his product.

EDIT:
We all like "Graham" - these posts are not digs at him or Cobra - just our over-excitement for Cobra.

Agent Smith

#30

Doesn't make sense to me either. This is a product that has been in development for almost 2 years now. Surely those sorts of fundamental marketing decisions are made during the early design stages. Nope, earlier than that - in requirements analysis. Such a major shift at this late stage in the game? I smell a rat! And why does it have to be an either-or situation? I'd want to broaden my customer base, not restrict it. Sorry, I just don't buy it. More likely, development has run into intractable problems and features have had to be necessarily pruned.

#31

CobraLE is a MUCH simpler package than Cobra

Simpler = Less support = Less support cost (also it's being filtered through a 3rd party) = more ££ overall.

And that really is the last thing I'm posting here..
I think a Mod should lock this thread now.

#32

Great news.

We love "Graham"

#33

In fact - maybe he has done a sneaky deal for himself?

Idigicion deal with millions of screaming kids on their forums. "Graham's" forums deals with us lot.

Nice one.

JustLuke

#34

Indeed.

However it seems to me that someone has made a rather unnecessary PR blunder here - doh!

taumel

#35

#36

I'm kind of hoping (praying) he is selling the full version from his site and Idigicon are dealing with the LE side.

#37

An LEA contract is worth a fortune. Well done Graham

polygoon

#38

thrilling stuff indeed.

#39

The decision is not based on the quality of Cobra, more the direction Idigicon now wants to go with it, ie. the area where they feel they can best exploit the product.

Then why not exploit both markets? It just doesn't make a lot of business sense. Oh well. Most people figured that the promise of Cobra as a developer's engine would amount to nothing and they may end up being right after all.

LarsG

#40

He *IS* going to exploit both markets.. that's atleast how I see it..
There's going to be two (or more) versions..
1. Cobra ("full/pro" Edition), which is the full package
2. CobraLE (Learning Edition, which is a downsized version of the full package; for the Schools etc..

#41

Ok, I apologize if I misunderstood. I did read the announcement on the site, and the full "Pro" version of Cobra seems to be very immaterial at this point.

#42

This is like BRL announcing today that they are releasing a schools LE version of Max3D and saying details of our version will be forthcoming at some point in time.

Still, at least it is a bit of excitement. At least Cobra is alive.

sswift

#43

I'm lost. So CodersWorkshop was closed why? What does this Cobra thing have to do anything or with Blitz which was the focus of CodersWorkshop as far as I was aware?

#44

CodersWorkShop was 're-invented' to cover lots of programming languages. Unfortunately 90% of traffic was off-topic. Of the 10% left 90% of that was Blitz related.
As far as I can see the Blitz forums, generally, related to warez and demo (ab)users, those who got B2D off a coverdisk, the odd die-hard from BC, plus those banned from here or who didn't like it here.

#45

It's a constantly changing market. Whatever the original intentions were, people have to eat. If that means reevaluating your position on the day of release then so be it.

Tell me you wouldn't do the same and I won't believe you. Prove it, and I still won't believe you! (sorry, Adams coming through... :) )

#46

I don't think anybody here has much of an issue with it.
There'll be a few CW posters who'll be apoplectic (now there's a nice word :).

#47

What an odd decision.

#48

Blitz which was the focus of CodersWorkshop as far as I was aware?

Here's how I see it. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I've been on Codersworkshop from day one.

1. Idigicon wants an "independent" coders forum with the Flavor of Blitzcoder that can cover several languages, including AND ESPECIALLY COBRA. Codersworkshop is born.

2. Cobra's release is delayed. (2005)

3. People ask more and more questions about Cobra.

4. Cobra's release date is changed from TBC to June 2005.

5. Cobra's release is delayed.

6. Cobra's release date is changed back to TBC.

7. People waste hours/days/ weeks of their time asking questions about Cobra on the forum until they get tired of that and divert to random off-topic conversations.

8. Codersworkshop becomes useless to a large extent mainly because the whole premise for its existence (a new language) is dead.

9. Cobra is now delayed again and re-routed to the educational sector by Idigicon. (with a "pro" version promised for some unknown future date).

Knowing that the public will be extremely upset, Idigicon ducks in a hole and takes the site down four days before the world will find out that their product did not deliver according to its original expectations.

#49

And there'll be those guilty of floccinoccinihillipolification..

A cream cake to the person who works that out :)

#50

Knowing that the public will be extremely upset, Idigicon ducks in a hole and takes the site down four days before the world will find out that their product did not deliver according to its original expectations.

...and then get poor Graham to make the announcement on his own site and take whatever flak comes from it. That's an awful situation to put the guy in, imo.

Graham - release Cobra yourself. You'll make money guaranteed. I saw Cobra and its a great product and I know you worked your balls off for it, I don't want to see it go to waste.

#51

@GfK

EXACTLY!!!!!

I agree. I wish wish wish that Graham could break free of Idigicon and market it himself. I think he could do quite well. I know the educational market is lucrative, but I also think that educational institutions may also be looking at XNA soon and that will be stiff competition, because it looks like the "industry standard" way to get young people into game design.

GfK, I also agree with the fact that Graham should not have had to make the announcement himself.

From the little I've seen, Cobra looks like a great product.

#52

I don't mean this to sound disrespectful to Cobra or Graham, but the Cobra syntax is (or at least *was*) a lot like Blitz3D.

I really don't think that such a language is the best way to educate people who want to be programmers. That's not to say you can't make games with it - its just that anyone who's serious about making games needs to be learning C++ - something thats industry-recognised.

#53

@Gfk

That's not to say you can't make games with it - its just that anyone who's serious about making games needs to be learning C++ - something thats industry-recognised.

Yes and no. I think the most important thing is getting the studets to understand the logic behind games and the process of planning a game, how things are done, etc.

BUT I think most schools would agree with you , which is why I think XNA will be education's top choice for game development. Everyone wants to be able to develop for a console and XNA is the first opportunity for a student (really anybody) to develop for the XBOX....a great opportunity for indies now.

Link1426

#54

that is weird that is just disappeared for no appearent reason

oh well i don't need cobra, BMAX is awesome anyway!

yoko

#55

If Cobra is kept delayed, just buy Max3D, there's much better support from BRL.

#56

I think B3D is actually still an EXCELLENT product....I'm making my next game in it. Btw, I heard a rumor that some of the folks at Solstar *might* be working on a new render engine for B3D that includes 2.0 shaders and other dx9 features.
Even without that, however, B3D still rocks IMO.

Kanati

#57

I'm gonna cross my fingers and hope that there's a further announcement coming about a regular version for everyone that's held their breath and encouraged Graham for the last TWO YEARS... And I'm going to hope that we weren't strung along like trout for that same amount of time only to get the bait snatched out of the water just as we were about to bite, and then to be laughed at heartily by the fisherman... But...

Does this mean the National Curriculum textbook will be
'Programming Games from Scratch' by Krylar?

Right NOW it should be titled 'Programming Games with Vaporware' by Krylar.

>:(

(tu) ENAY

#58

> Anyway, it'd just be another language
> on our hard disks for most of us to
> never write a complete game in... :)

A man (or woman) after me own heart. :)

#59

Don't worry people - "Graham" will be making a further announcement in the coming week.

Keep an eye on http://www.squeakyduck.co.uk/ as the announcement may not be officially made on these forums.

Cobra is coming to us - I have been enlightened - you'll understand more soon. However, it is not too difficult to work out what path this is all taking and how it is being done.

#60

Puki

Wonderful news!!! I'll save my money for Cobra then instead of purchasing

from Amazon, which I was just about to do.

Instead, I'll be patient and wait.

I can only imagine what Graham must feel like.... to be so close to the launch and to have to wait.

MikeHart

#61

ROFL. That makes my day big time. Thanks again to IDIGICON. That is the best what could have happen to all competing programming languages and languages that are in development. :-)
Now let me get a hammer to erase that huge smile out of my face. It starts hurting bigtime ;-)

t3K|Mac

#62

this issue with cobra/LE & idigicon shows me that b3d has still a huge potential in it ;-)

i'll keep on using b3d... its an awesome language.

#63

YEP. B3D IS STILL KING of the indie languages.

#64

There you have it:

One thing I can say is that Idigicon will not be selling any version of Cobra other than CobraLE

Case closed - keep an eye on http://squeakyduck.co.uk/ for more news.

polygoon

#65

Michael, to what does the word Fantom actually refer in your sig?

I googled but got nothing much.

Interestingly though some of the near misses piqued my interest in COBOL, and I thank you for that. It's a real language, still going strong, not like the ubiquitous modern nonsense.

#66

One thing I can say is that Idigicon will not be selling any version of Cobra other than CobraLE

GREAT NEWS.

Filax

#67

It is possible to have a demo version ? i'm interrested :)

yoko

#68

Look at the demo, if good, buy it, vice versa.

CoderLaureate

#69

I think this just means that they decided COBRA wasn't good enough to develope professional games. But since there's been so much hype over the last year or so they had to do *something* with it.

I can't see the value in teaching some kids how to program in a completely new language that isn't being used in the real world. Basic has always been the best *beginners'* language. There are still a bunch of programmers using Basic in the industry today. ...Until they all wise up and switch to the one true language "C#"... :P

-j9t

Amon

#70

The latest news I heard was that CodersWorkshop will return soon. All that's happening is a major overhaul of the site. The changes are happening I think are because of Cobra LE.

Idigicon don't have any rights to other versions of Cobra ie commercial/pro versions. GrahamK stated that he alone will deal with these versions and if you go to his site you can expect an announcment soon about Cobra for us diehard coders.

Again, Idigicon will only sell and support Cobra LE.

SopiSoft

#71

I think this just means that they decided COBRA wasn't good enough to develope professional games. But since there's been so much hype over the last year or so they had to do *something* with it.

No, they chose to sell an educational version since Idigicon is doing very well on selling their educational range so they thought that would be the best choice, because any company has to go with an approach where it sees the best returns overall.

#72

I think this just means that they decided COBRA wasn't good enough to develope professional games. But since there's been so much hype over the last year or so they had to do *something* with it.

I do love a reasoned argument... See a real voice of reason from Sopisoft above!

I'm posting the rest because it's not really Cobra related.

I can't see the value in teaching some kids how to program in a completely new language that isn't being used in the real world. Basic has always been the best *beginners'* language. There are still a bunch of programmers using Basic in the industry today. ...Until they all wise up and switch to the one true language "C#"... :P

Sadly this is the sort of comment which is causing so many problems in the software industry. Remember people like you KNOW how to program, you understand the concepts, why $F = 15 .. Too many people in our industry have forgotten exactly how hard it is to understand how a program/computer works, and everything in education just seems to push how to wordprocess / use excel / make a simple database rather than get down to the nuts and bolts.

When you are 11/12, some of these concepts are somewhat 'alien'. Hitting someone at that level with C# / Java etc would be like asking me to learn particle physics.
Some kids will always get it, and be capable of jumping onto Java instantly, but we are not talking 'some kids', we want 'most kids' to be able to get the ideas.
Sure at a later stage colleges / uni should be doing only the real world languages, but to get people starting early it's good to keep it simple (blitz and DB are both good in this respect as well). In the case of CobraLE they can produce stuff which is fun too, the demo's which have been done with CobraLE are things like battleships, breakout, hangman.. All simple, but things that are easy to modify and understand (and fast enough to play if they don't).

If something I've done increases the number of people leaving school and wanting to get into programming, I'll be happy.

he he, education rant over !!!

#73

Good post Graham.

Qbasic was what we had at school- that wasn't the easiest of languages to jump right into- These days we need a new replacement that is actually useful- Perhaps you and cobra will fill that gap :D

B3D is getting to the point that QB was at when we learnt it- it's aging, it works, well. But it's aging. When windows 2000 came out Qbasic died out pretty damn quickly at that school (Well, it was on it's way anyway), and B3D wasn't around just yet. Meanwhile I was at college, listening to rumors of BlitzMax and how it works.

One more off topic thing: I still find it odd that rumors of Bmax have been around since 2000/2001. They have- because I was at college when I found out about it.

(tu) ENAY

#74

How is B3D aging then? Surely from date created and not from lack of game creation tools.

#75

Obviously from date created. It's just had its useful life extended considerably with DDS :) but who knows when the API it is based upon will become unsupported and eventually incompatible.

Gladly, I don't see that happening for a while yet.

#76

I'm still using Blitz3D. Cobra is going to be my new toy to play with.

SopiSoft

#77

Same for me puki. :-)

Clyde

#78

Good luck with Cobra.

Lets hope that their redoing the site to be like Blitz Coder. I miss the good old days.

robleong

#79

Clyde, the "good old days" is usually just a fond memory. Life is about change, so embrace the new, and remember the old. :)

Take care.

Wings

#80

Yes all webb pagees changed every 3 months.. so no one can find in em.. i like blitzbasic.com its not changed for a while so i know where to find tings :)

#81

HHHHHAAAA,

@Rob. Life might be about change. But code Archives are about keeping thing the same enough so you can find things

#82

A user from cw.com has set up a forum at www.devcrunch.com for those of you who can't live without posting stuff. :)

(tu) ENAY

#83

> you who can't live without posting stuff. :)

AKA TIme wasting :)
I just had a 'quick' read of that forum, yep. Time wasting :)

Orca

#84

devcrunch ftw \o/

CoderLaureate

#85

Graham and Sopisoft:

Forgive my thoughtless comments. Beer and Pizza mix well, too well infact. I think I'm rather disdainful over the direction Idigicon and Coders Workshop has decided to go. Actually, I've been disapointed in the whole site overal. I just wish I had time to put together a site that could be as content rich as Blitz Coder used to be.

There's an idea! How about someone starting a new site in competition with Idigicon called "Cobra's Workshop"? But post plenty of tutorials and articles that would actually get people involved, and interested in buying Cobra for game making.

And, although I do apologize for my brainless ramblings. I still have to admit that I can't see the value of introducing a bunch of young minds to the world of programming by using a brand new language that isn't being used in the industry. I still think that Basic (Beginners All purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) is the best language for young programmers to cut their teeth on.

But that's just my opinion.

-jim

Rook Zimbabwe

#86

As a Certified Teacher with over 10 years experience in teaching Computer Science (and Art) to 6,7, and 8th graders (ages 11 - 15ish) I can honestly say that BASIC is the best thing to start children on learning... I can also say that if you REQUIRE organization then teaching them PASCAL or the Delphi version of PASCAL is much much easier whan they get to High School and learn C++ and PASCAL... but the district where I used to work had a structured program (while I was in charge!!!) :)

Ross C

#87

Well, i think this is a good thing. Freeing GrahamK of IDIGICON and getting money from the LE version. I'll still wait for the Pro version of Cobra :o) Good luck!

Picklesworth

#88

I doubt that CodersWorkshop is totally gone, since it is still prominently linked to at www.idigicon.com
Presumably, such a surprise move would have included rather quick removal of that currently effectively broken link.

The site is probably getting some rather intense revisions, though...

I think it's a great move to sell Cobra as an educational tool, since there aren't really many of those and it could do very well as that.

xlsior

#89

Just be careful not to go too far in the 'requiring organization' --

When I studied computer science, the powers that be mandated that the introduction to programming in the first trimester was done through some completely backwards language called 'robbie'. It was kind of a very basic basic/pascal hybrid -- with the main feature that the entire command set was in Dutch rather than English.

Nice in theory (lets get rid of the 'confusing' english command set and use an 'easy' dutch one instead so you can focus on the logic rather than the language), but in reality where the entire class already had prior programming experience using various English commandsets, it's completely backwards... Especially considering that was at a university level.

Rather than making it easier, it made everything unnecesarily more complicated, with the added value of using a language that has absolutely no real-world applications.

Rook Zimbabwe

#90

Oh yes... so true... I taught LOGO (the kind with the turtle...) to 6th graders before we devised our current set. I had 9 teachers in my sub-district threaten to quit because they would have to learn LOGO and BASIC...

LOGO is taught at 4th grade and 5th grade... 5th grade also introduces HYPERSTUDIO... 6th grade recaps LOGO and launches into BASIC... I sent my buddy Rob the link for BLITZ when I moved on... he has 8th graders slavering for the use of that in the curriculm...

Robbie sounds like a good idea. I have always wondered how BASIC is taught in Asia myself. My wife says she had to take english classes as well as BASIC to be able to understand what was going on... (Wife from Schezuan China)

The Russian Schools have a langauge based on BASIC/LOGO (I think it is based on BASIC and LOGO)I had heard but searching I cannot find anythig about it.