Do we really need An offical Max3d

I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m not sure that Bmax really needs an offical Max3d Mod, (That is one written by Mark).

Although it failed Auroa (Or whatever), did apparently work, I assume that the wrapper Gman does works, and Eliza works. Now I realise that all of these are just wrappers for other engines, (no matter what was claimed of Auroa). However isn’t this showing that a Bmax specific engine is redundant?

Ok, A nice package with an all in one 3d engine is a good thing, but I am then tied to that engine, were as if one made a good interface, one could use any engine that can be wrapped.

In fact how annoyed would everyone be, if after Max3d came out, we found out that it just wrapped Ogre (or what ever). If it worked, would you care?

If Mark said right now that there wasn’t going to be a Max3d, then there would probably be a good “wrapper” alternative for sale within weeks. I know that Ant messed up, but I was willing to get Auroa, if only someone I trusted had been marketing it.

Now I am going to buy Max3d when it comes out, and I might or might not use it, but I will buy it. I don’t tho now think that it’s the Be all and end all.

I would however like to know what sort of language structure Max3d is expected to be. Ie will it be like MaxGUI, (a bit too procedural), will it be like MiniMax3d, (Type Driven but full procedural access), or totaly oop, (like errr MFC)

no... no, no, no, no...

bite your tongue young man :)

did ya look at the screenshots that Mark previewed for us... last year...

he's got something working there... something neat and clean...

as far as the language... it'll be no different from what BMax is now, i would imagine...

of course, it would be good to hear this from the horses mouth, as i can only guess and imagine...


no matter what engine i'm using at the time BMax3D comes available, i plan to license BMax + BMax3D... regardless...

even if i don'tdo anything except play around with it...

if the BMax3D module doesn't come available... i won't be licensing BMax... i have no need for it without 3D...
c# and c++ are already usable options without BMax3D...

i see BMax and the 3D module as part of a single system... best for each other...

--Mike

@Red,

Yep I saw those shots, but they could be done with Eliza or Gmans wrapper (irilliagh ?). Im not doutbing that Max3d will be good. Im just pointing out that if it wasnt onthe horizzon, it wouldnt matter, because the engines available could also be that good.

H&K, nothing stops you from using other engines even when Max3D module is out. However, judging by the quality and longevity of the 3D engine built into Blitz3D I'd say it's a safe bet that Mark's 3D engine for Max will be one fine and very usable product. Something that can't always be said about using other 3D engines.

Barney

i *was* centering on the screenshots in my posts above... but it's a bit more than the pretty pictures... two things make Blitz3D shine, in my opinion... the Entity system, and the .b3D file system...

i like em both... and, i fully expect the same kind of symbiance in Max3D...

*added*
good point as well Barney...


--Mike

AAAHHHHHGGGGG! Heretic!!! Burn the Heretic!!!!!!

Seriously, an OOP Max3D is the motherlode. I'm all about stopgaps until it gets here.... but it needs to get here (eventually.... please, Mark!).

Ok ALL the things you like about d3b are in MiniMax3d. So all Simon would need do is wrap another engine for its base functionality (As apposed to Bmax), and bingo :- A fast 3d system for Bmax that work just like B3d, and is fast.

And will be more like b3d than Max3d is likly to be

I don't really know much about Ogre (been meaning to look into it) so I can't speak for how viable the alternatives are, but I do want to point out that when I first encountered it, Blitz3D was the only tool with the right mix of features for my needs. And I mean only. Unless Ogre happens to have the entire feature set of Blitz3D (no exceptions!) then I definitely want Max3D and not just some wrapper.

Do some more thinking. If there was an ideal solution everybody would be using it.

Yes we do.

I still haven't decided if I'll ever buy bmax, but, if the official 3D module was cancelled (as if), I'd definately never buy bmax.

Ogre is pretty neat and already has high level abstraction with a nice but slightly different node/entity system. It allready has the majority of Blitz3D functions in there. Just in a little more detail.

http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/api/html/classOgre_1_1Node.html

look familiar?

It also has a very good material system, both shader and fixed function. Several shadow techniques with all kinds of optimizations to make it really fast.

The biggest trouble I find modern engines are that shaders are quite frankly a pain in the bottom. You really have to be a programmer to get much out of them, that or borrow existing shaders and edit a few fixed parameters.

you can't mix fixed function material properties with shaders unless they are on seperate render passes.

I suggest that if you want to play with ogre you try SOW, it leaves aurora in the dust, Chris has done an excellent job with it.

One thing I noticed after moving to SOW is just how complex the material system can be, with techninques, LOD, hardware fallbacks, shadow and lighting techniques, passes and texture layers with about 20 blendmodes to juggle.

Things have really moved on in the last 3 years, and it can be hard to appreciate how much if you have only been using B3D most of that time.

I imagine that if Max3D has as extensive a set of material properties as ogre does, it will be a couple of years before we see any decent exporters that can actually support a significant portion of what the engine is capable.

Who cares who makes it so long as it does what it does well and isn't exclusive and doesn't prevent other such engines etc. I'm sure Max3D will be high quality and powerful and fast and easy to use. I don't think it matters how they make it do what it does, if it does it right. Nobody ever said there had to be ONLY an official module, just that there is a lot of TRUST and weight behind getting something from the official developers of the language.

I'm using the freely available BMax 3d engine wrappers right now, and I agree they are great.

Still, an official engine would still be nice to keep things tidy, and so far I like Mark's 3d engines.

Although, with these other engines already available, I would rather that that network module got more attention than the 3d module, but noone else will agree with me so I will never say that again :)

I guess Mark wants the 3d module out first since it would be a good selling point for BM.

One day, I *might* even get into 3D so I'd like the official 3D module.

> Do we really need An offical Max3d
>
>
> > Yes we do.

Yeah we do need Max3D, then I can poke fun at the 98% of people here who won't finish a game in it, just like I do with the people who never make games anyway. Bring it on! :)

An official 3d module will be supported and will evolve based on feedback from the userbase. Compare that to a typical unsupported, hacked together, mess that dies when the author doesn't feel like updating or providing continuous support.

Well I don't.

So what we want, is a supported 3d system. I agree. I mess with Eliza and mini3dmax, but I have no intention on actualy usesing them in a project. I was tempted to buy Auora (It came out the week I started Bmax). I am waiting for an officialy supported Max3d.

If you look at the first line of my post
"I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m not sure that Bmax really needs an offical Max3d Mod, (That is one written by Mark)."

So Does Bmax really need an Max3d Mod written by Mark
Couldnt Brl, (Yes I know thats Mark, but anyway), Buy/negtiate one of these wrappers, and support that.
We would have a supported 3d engine for Bmax.
------------------------------------------------------------

Am I asking for Maxa3d to be abbandoned? No.

What I really want is a Diagram structure of the language. That is, which of the available models for 3d that have been created for Bmax MOST looks like the way Mark thinks Max3d will look.

Am I looking at

Object.Rotate ( Params )
or
Rotate (Ptr Object, Params)

For example? {Or god forsake Object(_Object).Rotate(Ptr Object, [ params ]}

If fact couldnt we have.... A manual before it comes out ;)

I know its not Marks bag to workLog much. But Ha, you know?

"What I really want is a Diagram structure of the language. That is, which of the available models for 3d that have been created for Bmax MOST looks like the way Mark thinks Max3d will look."


Why does this really matter at this point? If you want to explore other avenues then explore. Knowing the syntax shouldn't make or break your decision to wait for max3d.

Just look at the current 3 products: bmax, b3d, b+.... they are all simple to grasp and use. Why would you expect anything else from bmax3d when it's ready???

Mark is a genius, just let him work his magic!

If you have to ask, you've already answered your own question.

I won't use a non-BRL 3D module.

Been around here far too long and seen way too many people trying to make this stuff, grab a few $ from people and then disappear leaving their barely complete software to rot, and their victims to stand around wondering how the hell that happened.

You know BRL will continue to support their own software, so either wait for theirs, or write one for your own personal use only.

No, provided A) it wasn't overpriced and B) I didn't have to buy an Ogre licence as well.

I think an official Max3d module is essential. The BlitzMax language needs native 3d commands so that it can compete with languages such as DBPro.
It would also do a lot of good for the community. Everyone using a common engine rather than a variety.
I would expect the excellent .b3d format to be supported as well - this is currently in danger of extinction.

I think we all know that the official Max3d module will be up to the standard of Marks other creations, so i for one am happy waiting for it. i hope too that .b3d is kept

Pete

When Mx3D is out, buy it.... things can be as simple...

Some new screenshots would be good - but if Mark's been working on bugfixes/2d optimizations then I'll forgive him. :-)

Do i need the 3d module anymore?

Nope, not at the moment.

Will i buy it?

Yes, i think so. After all that's the reason i bought max for some time ago.

Is a official 3d module needed?

Yes, definately!

I wrote my own 3D Module (direct openGL) that did some pretty neat stuff (well I liked it :). It managed to get a working prototype of Tattoo and Decorator going on it. But I came to the conclusion that I didn't have enough time to develop a decent 3D engine and to develop programs with it.

I'm also waiting for the Offficial Max3D stuff. I was spoiled with Blitz3D and anything less than Blitz3D scaled up to Max just doesn't seem to sit right.