BMax3D Hopefuls - TSE Tightens The Screws...

... with the latest news that they are near Milestone4 release.







that's the last one before it goes gold... looks like another reason to defect is right around the corner...

oooo...

oooooo...

:)

details, and assorted embarrassing TSE fanboymania can be found here --> http://www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=1255

(sorry for the big pic)

--Mike

I just hope they really did rewrite the engine and not just stick shaders on top. TGE is incredibly inefficient with new cards creating huge numbers of batches to send to the GPU. the terrain on its default settings produced over 10,000 8 poly strips and fans.

I havent been impressed with what I've seen of GG's TSE so far. Maybe that will change in time, but they still over rely on BSP being used for visuals, when a lot of modern engines only use BSP for underlying structure and arbitrary meshes for visuals, since BSP typicaly relies on a lot of tiny batches, like B3D surfaces which arent as efficient on modern GPU's

TSE is shader only too, and doesn't support a more traditional fixed function pipeline that relies on blendmodes and texture layers and passes. Why this is I don't know, if I want to be cynical then I'd say it was to ship more revenue creating products. They have 4 engines now instead of one all mostly based off of the same TGE core.

Another thing to consider is that TSE is D3D only and will not have a mac version any time soon. Infact there is talk of dropping the mac altogether. Linux isn't supported anymore and they are concentrating on windows and 360.

Ok, I'll bite. What's good about the screenshot?

The model is quite nice, the texturing is nice, the UV mapping is a bit patchy. There doesn't seem to be any fancy lighting on it, in fact the lighting is very poor in that shot. There's a reflection cast on a flat plane and a shadow cast on a flat plane, both very easy to do and not very demanding because they're on a flat plane.

Is it self shadowing? I can't tell, but it doesn't appear to be.

It's not much of an advert for TSE. The techdemo they had out a year or so ago was more enticing than this.

from what lil i've seen of the code... it looks like a completely different rendering pipeline... as well as some other optimizations...

but i agree with you as far as not really being impressed with what i've seen in TSE so far...

... so far, that is...

as far as the lack of interest in cross platform stuff is concerned... you can blame Apple, and their intelMacs, for that... why waste time and resources maintaining a separate codebase for osx, when all the apple pickers in the orchard are gonna grab a new intelMac machine of the trees...

as far as the Linux people are concerned... hey, you wanted to out there... on the fringe... didn't ya...

well, sometimes, people on the fringe have to accept the fact that ##it happens...

anyways... we'll see soon enough... what i'm really wondering about is how this new XNA torque stuff is gonna affect things... if it is everything that it promises to be, TSE is gonna find itself the forgotten stepchild of the decade...

... but for now, it looks like a winna from the GG folks to me... and you all know, i have no alliegance to any of the guilds :)


@ Gabe...
it's self shadowing...



check out the FAQ here, and watch out for the fanboys running wildly all over the place... --> http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=11107

view some footage --> http://www.tribalwar.com/legions/tse_gamefest_lowres.mov


--Mike

What's with your fixation on defecting from blitz?
Torque is nice but its waaaaay harder to use.

I know this is probably a pain. But Whenever you post one of these, could you not also post a code snippet?

I agree with Gab, its just a picture. Its could be good or bad depending on what was needed to make it. (ie was it just Graphic 800,600,32 to create the screen, or 150 lines of code?

what!!!

wwWWWHHHAAAAATTTT!!!!

how can you ask such a thing smiles... ok, let me count the ways...

1- no BlitzMax3D module yet...

2- Blitz3D, the *FLAGSHIP* product is still dx7 with no native shader support (we did get dxtc recently though)...

3- did i mention no BlitzMax3D module yet...


@ HK...
what is this... what's going on here... a new Blitz Fanboy Guild uprising or something... calm down... what are ya getting so defensive about... the sun will still rise tommorrow...

and, what d##mn code do you wanna see, as if you'd know what you were looking at anyways... besides, the code is the property of GG, and to seen and exploited only by the licensees of the engine...

show me some Blitz3D engine code...

what's needed to make it you ask...

well, ya just drop the d##mn model into TSE, tell it what shader to use... and press enter to play...

and, if you're a paying gamer, and not a dev, just do step 3

haaaa hAAAAAAAA...

if you're really interested in how to code it... go visit the GG site... this is the Blitz site... whaddya want, Mark to come over here and kick the living dogmess outta me...

:)


hey... don't get mad at me now... i don't make the news, i just report it...

i can't help it if the news doesn't go allong with the rose colored delusions you see as being what the world should be... ssssooooorrrrrrryyyyyy :)

don't chop the head off of the messenger now... geeez... if BlitzMax3D were out, or near completion now... even if i had some idea of where it is... a screenshot... a lil feel good news... even a lie or two from ontop of Blitz Research Mountain... i wouldn't be searching all over the place for something...


so... ya see... it's not my fault... i'm just a victim of circumstance...

hahahahahahaaaaaaa... a willing victim, but a victim no less... i'll take your sympathy hugs now thank you...

hahahahaaaaa



--Mike

Why not tack together one of the predone engines like others have done, TBH MiniB3d looks good this is one I will keep me eyes on.

legit question Edz... let me count the reasons why...

1- miniBlitz, sounds just like what it is... great, i'll be able to make a mini game with it... *play wrong answer buzzer sound here*

2- bmax/irrlicht... yeah, right... and what other libs do i have to cobble together to make a complete game engine with that... not to mention having to depend on the 3rd party bindings, or write up my own... *play wrong answer buzzer sound here too*

3- bmax/ogre... read number 2 response... then play the buzzer sound again... twice...

not to mention that i can do everything that i can do with a bmax wrapper and all those engines without having to license bmax at all... all of em have c++, c# language bindings...

if i wanted ogre or irrlicht, i would already be using ogre or irrlicht...

BLITZ MAX 3D WOULD BE NICE!!!

is any of this getting through...


--Mike

Red,

You are doing it again my friend, you are comparing a game engine with a game development language. Blitz 3D and Torque are very very different.

The biggest problem you are still gonna have is content. That and getting your head around exactly how to do complex stuff in Torque.

You can have the best engine in the world and yet no good content if you cannot provide it. The engine is only one part of the triangle.

Coder - Engine - Content

If any one of these is not so good then the final result will be poor.

Torque is (I grant you) a better engine than B3d, but thats because B3d is not an engine, it is a language.

B3d is very very accessible, Torque is not. The pipeline for art, gui, etc etc is very much more complex than in B3d, so for many of us the power of Torque looks great, but we couldn't even begin to understand most of the cryptic ways you have to programme it.

The docs are poor, the examples are poor, the gui is yucky, the art pipeline is pretty rubbish, you need a middleware tool to make sure most of what you are doing is going to look okay, and lighting - er. well even with the extra lighting pack I have heard that it's not that good.

Lets look at the important thing about games engine, the finished games, how many are there? Seriously if you think Torque is that much better than B3d and DB show me the finished professional games.

I can see a few, but be honest if it were that good a tool or that easy to use surely more people would have brought projects to fruition? They are not pourring out of the stable are they?

Don't get me wrong I love the look of a Torque scene, but I know the amount of work I have to do to actually have something which is actually an interctive game in Torque is stupidly long compared to something I can do in B3d.

Testing a real game idea in Torque would be soooo time consuming too. In B3d I can spend a couple of hours and get a good feel for how the finished game may be, not so in Torque ou'd be lucky if you had a model loaded.

Only how I feel about Torque, and I have looked three times over the last two years. I feel the same way about Virtools too - which is a far more comparable game engine to Torque. Both are not easy to 'break into' and those who develop the systems do not go out of their way to make it easier for us would be developers.

IPete2.

I'll be interested in seeing what Torque X is like, it kind of feels like TSE may well be obselete before it is released if Torque X mixes the best of the 2D torque game builder with TSE and 3D support.

I've only heard good things about TGB, even from people that ridicule TSE which in their opinion is far down the technology curve of a modern game engine.

> is any of this getting through...

Mike, when are you ever gonna post coherently?
And learn how to use correct punctuation?

> i'll take your sympathy hugs now thank you...

I'd give you a sympathy hug, but out of pity. :)

What exactly is that image displaying? It looks like a Quake 2 or 3 model.

C'mon Leadwerks, this is a topic by Red Ocktober, it's not meant to make any sense.
Right clicking tells me it is an orc. Don't remember any of those on Quake.

exactly my first impressions...


yes, you're right IP... i think i've mentioned before, the differences between Torque and Blitz...

one of em being that TSE is almost here... and BMax3D is not...


hey... i'll take it... beggars can't be choosy...

--Mike

TSE looks great and has nice features.
But as soon as you try working on real projects with it you realize that you are wasting tons of time fighting the engine instead of being productive.

Maybe i should grab the latest release of TSe and see whats new, I havent used it or updated in a long while.
Made a few demo's until the shiney shader newness wore off..heh ;) (but it was easy to use them, i give it that)

Evak, atleast we can reduce the surface's to texture/material count in B3d to speed it back up.
and blitz seems to like low surface high triangle counts, ..TGE works better with low poly many surfaces.
But back to the point , Tse is supposed to be a rewrite..how effecient it is I dont know.

Sam

GPU's like low surface high polycounts. Which is part of the reason that BSP is used less for rendering and more for structure in the underpinnings. Old TGE terrains in their default settings split things into 8 poly trifans and strips.

And if you load a DTS into showtool you can view the triangle strips it creates, usualy you will have dozens and these will be sent to the GPU as seperate batches which are better suited to voodoo 3 era videocards.

At the end of the day I have to admit though, there isn't a lot of choice for indies if they want to buy off the shelf products. In my opinion you only really have Blitz or Garage Games products untill some of the others mature a bit and ship some games.
Anyway, I assume they optimized that somewhat since the new terrains look pretty decent and a lot more detailed than previously.

here we go again! GRRR

Torque shader engine is rubbish and over priced!

bmax3d isnt here yet because mark hasnt finished it! wait it will be great! he hasnt let us down yet and what do you expect him to make this thing over night. hes hinted it will be here before christmas i for one am fine with that, if when it comes out its finished hes already ahead of TSE with its EA licence.

So just quit your moaning and wait. make 2d games inn max for now or work on content for your games its not that long to wait for an easy to use 3d module.

Pete

Pete... Pete... calm down... calm down now...

breathe slowly... yeah, that's it...

now, go pick up the phone and dial 1 800 SENDHELPFAST...

and don't worry, your insurance will cover most of it... and the out of pocket costs will be minimal when compared to the benefits that some good mental therapy will do for you...

just listen yourself Pete...

you actually don't know anything about the Torque Shader Engine... do you Pete...
c'mon now, be honest with us... we're all friends here...

you don't have a license for it, never had a license for it... you haven't looked at any of the code for it... and you've probably have never even made anything, much less even tried to make something with it...

so how i heaven's name would you even know enough about TSE to make an even halfwitted assesment of it...

in short... you don't have a clue as to what you are babbling about...


overpriced... tell us Pete... just how much do you think a license for TSE costs...



wow... has Mark confided this to you personally... when did he tell you that this was the reason why it's not here yet... and, more importantly, why has he singled out you, and only you, to tell this bit of news to...

what other voices are you hearing in your head... Pete...

hahahahaaaaaaahahaaaaa...



ovvverrrrr niiiiiite!!!! duuuhhh, huuuulllooooo....


well... i'm happy for you Pete, happy that you are fine with that... and i really hope Santa puts BMax3D in your Christmas stocking...

but that's you Pete, not meeeeee.... nor is it the rest of the world...



believe me young man... you haven't even heard me start any real moaning yet... and you are not my therapist, girl friend, or lawyer, so you are wasting your time giving me advice in such a manner...


hey Pete, can i tell you where you can stick that bit of looney tunes advice... stick it where it'll make you do a lil bit of moaning... waaayyyy up there.... okay...


now go and make that phone call i mentioned at the top of this post...

a mind is a terrible thing to waste...

... and an even worse thing not to have.


--Mike

mike your the one whos unstable. ive worked with torque game engine for 3 years and the art pipeline is a rubbish undersupport load of old crap. torque shader has the same pipeline. i have had the shader licence from day one and if you think the wait for bmax 3d was long the progress of TSE is painfully slow. i know you love nice dx9 shader effects but not that i care what you use but i dont think torque is the answer. if you think $999 is cheap for you to sale the game be my guest

Pete

PS i love you telling me to calm down and then you rant for about half a page about me needing mental help.

you're delusional Pete... make the call...


if ya had a clue to what you are talking about... you'd know that the TSE license is only $150 plus the cost of the TGE license ($100)...

if you had a license to TSE, from day one, as you stated above, you'd know that the price wasn't no $999...

i just luv guys like you Pete... with every word you say, make it easier and easier for me to expose all that you 'know'... keep talking... hahahahahaaaa....

like i said... your delusional... what you see, and what the real world sees, are 180 degrees apart...

now go make that call... now...

:)

--Mike

plus the shot above you used looks like quake 3, there are much better examples of TSE, but the a few effects dont make a game engine. try making anything other than a fps or rts or a basic driving game with torque and you may aswell put all that code in the bin.

first you tell me to make 2d games with max... now you're tellin me what i should make with TSE...

for someone who doesn't know the faintest thing about what they are babbling about, you sure love to give other people advice...

sorrrrrry Pete, you will forgive me if i choose take my advice from people who at least know something...


the call Pete... make it before it's too late...

--Mike

i dont know why you have the idea i dont know anything about torque when im quite sure ive worked with it more than you? i was paid to make models for a game than used the torque game engine so ive done alot with the art side of torque.

To be quite blunt Red you seam to think alot of engines are the next big thing. with you guess the engine thread you post every now and then. all im saying is that torque was designed to make a online FPS and quite a good one at that (if a bit old) the code is split between server and client sides, which means if your making a fps thats just one player theres alot code you will not use. the lighting pack is a good add on but still doents really make it cutting edge. anyway i gone through this alot with the many threads on the subject.

What ever engine you load your little sub in, you will still have to make it fun to play. graphics do not make a game.

And i do think your game looks good anyway, your not a multimillion pound games company and your not coding your own custom engine so your never be at the cutting edge.

leadwerks have shown what blitzmax can do with there engine demos.

its not advice, because i dont give a monkeys what you do. but i dont like it when people come on a blitz forum and say how great another engine is they know little about! you will feel really silly if you spend 4 months coding your game in torque just to see people do better stuff in bmax3d.

LOCK THIS AND ANY TREAD LIKE IT SOMEONE PLEASE!

How is the following (all quotes from the above Red Ocktober posts) even remotely close to acceptable forum behaviour?


What has it come to when someone gets this kind of sustained abuse?

i only want people to have some faith in Mark, he must have good reason for taking his time over bmax3d. the way i see it the longer it takes the better he will make it. ive had blitz from the amiga days and ive always been more than happy with its progress.

thanks avon it is a bit much.

Pete

hey Avon...

we were having an intelligent, many sided discussion... no barbs, no slights, just an exchange between soldiers and veterans of the many 3D dev battles...

then Pete decided to enter this...



he's the one who decided on the currency... i merely gave him his change in the coinage that he chose to deal with...

if he wanted to be treated civil, then he should try treating others a lil more civility...

then you find the need to jump up and be the public defender... i suggest that you shut your mouth if you don't have something a lil more on topic to contribute...

good manners is a two way street... if his parents haven't already taught him that, or if he hasn't learned it by now... then if he decides to use me as his boy toy, he deserves whatever he gets...



--Mike

So this:

Which wasn't even directed at you personally, Red, deserves several screens full of abuse?

*edited - i read that wrong Avon - a lil busy trying to do some work here and follow this foolishness at the same time... sorry *

me thinks you exxagerrate slightly Avon, in an attempt to make a point... and it was directed directly at me...

now, be smart and come to your senses... let this thread get back on topic... the last thing we need is another food fight due to your misguided sense of what's right and wrong...

Pete initiated the tone of what he got... he is resposible for what followed... maybe next time he'll realize that he is part of a community of people with feelings... and act as he would like others to treat him...


besides... i didn't say anything out of bounds, and the abuse you see is all your own imagination...

the guy's lying about licensing Torque... he doesn't even know how much it costs...

he has no idea what the engine code looks like... he lied about that as well...

forget the tone of his post... just on those two items, i think i let Pete off easy... he's gonna stand up and tell me what i should and shouldn't be doing, when he doesn't know the first thing about Torque...

gimme a break, will ya Avon...

--Mike

Why don't you stop with the cyberwarrior BS and do something productive/useful/away from this forum? You're nearly 60 for Christ's sake. If you were 11 I could sort of understand your level of conduct.

avons quite right i did mean to everyone who keeps saying things like "whys it taking so long" "i may defect because this engines better" and that sort of thing. its not helpful and what do they thinks going to happen he will suddenly finish bmax3d just because they moaned a lot?

Heheh, I see Mike's in his usual nutcase form.

And all I want to do is help him with his spellings. I guess when you get old, you have all sorts of issues :)

Can't someone ban Mike? If only to get rid of randomly created topics about 'guess the engine that noone cares about' type threads.

ah yes, GfK... the vice president of the Those Who Were Banned Guild... followed by his trained tool ENAY... who proudly wears the badge of not having had one productive, contributing, worthwhile post in his last fifty...

to be on opposite sides of you two must surely mean that i'm doing something right...

it was only a matter of time before your unique wisdom entered the fray...

i see now this has only one direction to go in... i expect it to be locked soon...

do the thread a favor and let it rest...

--Mike

I think you'll pass into senile dementure before you finish your sub game, at least then you'll have a valid reason for not finishing it. :)

yes... of course you do ENAY... that's the way you are... that's the way your 'mind' works... you can't help yourself...

i can't fault someone for what they are...

well, i can... but that would mean i'd have to take you seriously... and as you can see... i don't...

you should seriously try thinking of other things... i am not your mentor, i am not your god... stop following me around like a lost puppy, waiting for my next series of ellipses...


--Mike

> yes... of course you do... that's the way you are...

Eh? That doesn't even make sense, I guess senile dementure started some time ago. Oh well, at least you ruined one of your threads for a change this time instead of posting nonsense into someone elses.

[edit] Oh I see, you still continue to edit your posts [edit](5 times now) after you've made them. It's like you can't quite make up your mind what you're gonna say.

Man, you're too funny, I'm frightened for you.

sorry ENAY... i don't have the time to waste with you any more right now...

talk to the hand,will ya... i'm a lil busy at the moment...

i'll play with you later on... ok...


--Mike

Yeah, busy pressing fullstops.

you seem to be fascinated with em... overly fascinated with em...

geeez E... get a life, or something...

bye now...


--Mike

I'm sure we are all getting a little sick of both of you.