So Mister "Artist"...

The more I look at these forums (especially the 3D graphics-related posts), the more I see the artists/designers who really impress me all use 3DS Max. This has me curious. Is it a matter of better tools leading to people becoming better artists over time, or is it the better art is produced by graphic professionals, who naturally have access to the better tools?

I mean, I can't afford to drop $3,500 USD on software for a "hobby." So when I see someone mention his pipeline through 3DS Max, should I assume they work in some part of the industry with access to that kind of software? That I'm comparing my crappy programmer's art to guys who do this (or some other kind of graphical arts) for a living? Or have people really dropped almost 4 grand on a suite and, after lots of practice, it actually makes a difference...?

Well, who are you referring to? If you're talking about Mustang and Evak, then yes they are industry pros. Ultimately, they're not good artists because they use 3D Studio Max, but it is a top tool and pretty much a necessity for someone working in the industry.

Actually, Mustang, do you use 3D Studio Max? Now that I think about it, aren't you a Lightwave user? Y'see ronin, a good artist is a good artist no matter what tool they use.

yeah... don't be so envious of them ro... ahhh, on second thought... it's ok... envy them...

hey, lets talk bad about em and send em hate mail, while we ooooooo and ahhhhhhh at their great screenshots...

just who do they think they are making the rest of us feel so inadequate...

:)

3DSMax surely gives you an advantage... but without any talent, 3DSMax can only make bad art look worse... just as it makes good art look better...

besides... you have to really learn how to use it before you'll get anything spectacular out of it... and that in itself is some sort of accredidation...

as soon as my divorce is final, i'm gonna get it... i mean, if the courts leave me with more than the clothes on my back as part of the equitable distribution :)

--Mike

Shouldnt you get it first, so theres less money to be split?

As Joe says, it really depends who you're talking about. If you're talking about me, because I mention 3dsMax quite a bit, then you're comparing yourself with a programmer who tries to do his own art as well. I didn't drop 3.5k for 3dsMax, I had it bought for me by someone I used to do quite a bit of work for. I did drop a big chunk of change to upgrade from 5 to 7 though.

In fact I would say that the tool is less important as the artist gets better. I couldn't create anything if I wasn't using 3dsMax, because I don't have talent. If I did have talent, I could probably do the same work in any modeller, within some obvious limits.

Bob3D is a pro artist and uses Wings3D, I believe. Hmm, whatever happened to Bob3D, I wonder.

ya see Cyggy, that's why lawyers are in such demand...

if i were to do that, then it could be construed as 'dissipation of marital assets'... and she might wind up owning part of the software license :)

lets get back to 3DSMax and related stuff... we'll talk about my domestic situation in another thread... k...

--Mike

Both Mustang and Evak are amazing... no surprise they are pros. But they aren't the only folks doing good work (which maybe isn't quite Mustang or Evak's quality... but still beats the heck out of mine). I kind of expect a pro to be able to use whatever they are comfortable with to make great art. I'm just wondering if I'm surrounded by pros/semi-pros here or if there are a lot of experienced "amateurs" here who use good software because it makes that much of a difference...

You coud always donate it. *points to self*

Sorry Red :)

3Dmax… ok, cool, but pricey.
Here some stuff I am currently working on with Blender.
(Blender kick ass and is free… ^^)
http://blog.overdozing.com

I also hear of a lot of people using photoshop, all $999 dollars of it or whatever, so I've got a feeling that perhaps the odd person or two uses warez or "borrows" a work/friend's copy of expensive tools.

I started my 3D work (for living) with MAX but that was 8+ years ago. I used it for 3-4 years daily, then we/FM changed to use Lightwave exclusively. Last year we made a decision to move on to XSI but because I have been so "over-worked" with inhouse / custom projects requiring old codepaths I'm only now learning to actually use the XSI (have manuals and tutorial DVDs right next to me when I'm writing this).

So tools change occasionally, but once you learn the basics with one package, converting to use another is "quite easy"... most headaches come from learning the new set of shortcut keys and few mandatory changes to one's workflow. Right now I can't really use 100% effectively either LW or XSI because I keep pressing the wrong keys in both programs :)

Good tools make life easier and working becomes generally speaking faster. But I have used even POV-Ray to do 3D... if the artist blames the tools then you know he's just incompetent :)

Oh, and MAX *is* ridiculously expensive (and bloated these days) but XSI costs only 495, something like 10% of the MAX price tag. And it's GOOD - we did't had any budgetary restraints but we (artists) chose XSI over MAX (and Maya etc) even if it meant for me for example havng to learn another new 3D tool. MAX would have been easier for me, but it wasn't enough good feature and workflow wise.

//Good stuff// -> http://www.gimp.org/
^^

Some of its what the tools offer that others don't. For instance, with B3D pipeline, it has a custom Blitz3D material editor that supports B3D materials 100% including all blend modes for brushes and textures, plus simple 8 texture layers and 2 UV channels.

This combined with a single click to view your work in a blitz window means you have close to WYSIWYG, and thats before you start using the pipeline extensions that allow you controls of lights, ambient light, fog and many other things many of which can be animated in max and come out the same in B3D.

So in a way the tools do help, especialy if you make full use of them.

So having the best tools for the job certainly does help, but you also need to know how to use them.

One of the reasons that most small midsize developers don't take on inexperienced artists is the cost of training them to get up to speed with game engines. The one place that I have been at would pay newbie artists $6.50 per hour and didn't expect any production quality artwork in the first 6 months.

The biggest advantage Max has over other tools like XSI is that it has the most 3rd party support for exporters. It's long history in 3D and game dev and 3D CAD visualisation means that it has a huge userbase and will usualy be the first to get the best art pipeline support.

XSI is a relative newbie and finding a decent art path to any engine can be a difficult thing, particularly when on a budget.

At the end of the day, if you ignore the art pipeline, most of the pro tools so the same things but with different workflows and gui. Some artists find one way of working more intuitive and stick with that, or in the industry use whatever a particular job requires.

I use Max because for the longest time it had the most extensive poly modeling tools for environments and interior level design and modeling. In part due to its CAD roots. Whilst Maya concentrated almost exclusively on Nurbs and CH for film and Video. It has only recently caught up on the polygon front.

I've only used Lightwave, Maya and Max, and Softimage in the 90's so I can't comment on XSI. I imagine it offers much the same thing but being the new kid on the block, it hasn't got the support that older packages like Max and Maya have where tools are concerned. Thats a real issue for me. I'd rather use something costing $3000 and spend $600 on a decent art pipeline tool, than use a cheaper alternative that barely has an art pipeline at all without resorting to a collection of intermediate tools without native support for the engine I'm using.

I only do contract work now, so finding a quick and easy solution to exporting to many different formats is a biggy.

I'm going Blender (w/ PSP) through UU3D to .b3d for now, and it's working well for me. I haven't started animating, so at this point it's fine for what I need. I'm just afraid that, when I do decide to learn animation (pref bones-based) that my pipeline will collapse and I'll have to start all over with new apps. I don't want to be faced with the choice of being stuck paying someone else to do it for me, or having to start the whole learning process over.

I do appreciate all the examples you guys post throughout the forums, though! It's quite inspirational... plus I've learned a bunch just looking and listening...

Blender!!!!! OOOooouch!!!

:)


--Mike

''Blender!!!!! OOOooouch!!!''

I would have say the same 6 months ago... :)
If you are willing to follow at least 1 tutorial, a single 1, blender will look so so much easier to understand and after a few days, you actually feel confortable with it.

I use it for animation as well -> torque, and it's working pretty good!

Yeah, I am addicted to blender :P

Tell me please, HRC, what pipeline you use? I'm curious as to what exporters keep animation frames and/or bones well, and which don't. I have a heck of a time getting anything useful out of Blender's exports, through .obj to UU3D to .b3d (for MiniB3D for BMax) has worked well so far. I'm hoping some other standard export path (like to .lwo or.x) might hold more info...

BTW, now that I'm used to it, Blender's interface isn't too bad. I can do what I want pretty quickly...

:)

yeah... the last time i seriously looked at it, it was still part of NaN... and the interface had me talkin' to myself... worse than Truespace... much worse...

i hear it's a new world over there now...

--Mike

Well, I use blender with torque, so it is hard for me to guide you with blender/blitz. (I didn’t use blitz in a while)
I am sure there is a b3d exporter no??

People that are good artists are good artists... irregardless of the tools that they use. The tools can only make that art better.

Or perhaps to *.x ! did you tried to export for animation to x format ?

Just to repeat what has already been said,... I am a professional artist, and use professional tools (3dsMax, Photoshop, ZBrush) None of those tools are cheap, but all of them allow me to get the job done in the best possible way, and therefore deliver the best product to my clients.

I also use whatever tool is the best for the job. I prefer to do my poly model work in Wings3D (which is a free program) I then take it into Zbrush for extreme details, or into Max for texturing.

The thing is, there is really no magic bullet. Simply using these programs will not make you any better of an artist, although they will make some tasks easier to do, but you still need to know what you are doing.