I dont know if this has been asked or pondered, but the PS3 is likely going to have a fairly open platform based on Linux (Fedore Core), I was wondering whether there might be a chance for Blitz to become a useful development tool for PS3 homebrew/game dev? And how hard/easy this would be? Btw Im not referring to the issues related to the Cell, just assume that you can compile c/c++ files on the PS3's Linux implementation.
PS3 possibilities
Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/PS3 possibilities This is Sony you're talking about. Yes they will have Linux but I don't think they are going to make it easy for us, at all....
There're some homebrew PS2 devkits available, and it's pretty possible that PS3 will have such things, however the main obstacle is the distribution right to your works.
Thinking Torque has now a XBox360 platform, some gamedev kits may follow such path, but it's unpredictable.
Anyway, I'd rather hope to see Max3D out....
Thinking Torque has now a XBox360 platform, some gamedev kits may follow such path, but it's unpredictable.
Anyway, I'd rather hope to see Max3D out....
The ps2 linux kit was crippled to death.
I was wondering whether there might be a chance for Blitz to become a useful development tool for PS3 homebrew/game dev?
No. Btw Im not referring to the issues related to the Cell, just assume that you can compile c/c++ files on the PS3's Linux implementation.
Compiling C/C++ files are going to be the least of your worries, considering you're not intending to work in C/C++. Thinking Torque has now a XBox360 platform, some gamedev kits may follow such path, but it's unpredictable.
You forgot: and likely too expensive for normal people to afford. The reason I ask, is that I know with some certainty that there will be homebrew access on PS3. Think along the lines of the Amiga - and you'll be near the way it works (media is secured not the platform).
You can right now download the Cell SDK and start building SPE and PPE executables in c/c++ for the Cell - these will run on PS3 platform, because much of the IBM SDK, is actually made from Sony PS3 libraries :)
My interest lies in RDE's - Rapid Development Environments. Blitz is one of these. If it is possible to recompile Blitz to a different Linux platform, there may be some interesting possibilities - but from memory, the compiler is locked (IP wise) isnt it? And the rest is pretty much open sourced?
You can right now download the Cell SDK and start building SPE and PPE executables in c/c++ for the Cell - these will run on PS3 platform, because much of the IBM SDK, is actually made from Sony PS3 libraries :)
My interest lies in RDE's - Rapid Development Environments. Blitz is one of these. If it is possible to recompile Blitz to a different Linux platform, there may be some interesting possibilities - but from memory, the compiler is locked (IP wise) isnt it? And the rest is pretty much open sourced?
This is what was in the news back in march april regarding the PS3 compiler, which was supposed to be one of the reasons for the long delay at getting the devkits out earlier on in the year.
The responsibility for the compiler was entrusted to compiler specialist SN Systems Limited, which was acquired by Sony in 2005. The compiler's release had been continually delayed due to the complexity of the PS3's hardware and its multicore Cell processor. SN Systems finally made its release at the end of 2005. It still didn't take full advantage of the PS3. As a result, IBM itself has become involved in the creation of the PS3's development support tools, and a compiler optimized for the Cell chip is finally being released this month.
It amuses me that every time a new console is released someone will post a "Can I use Blitz to develop games on the latest flashy console?" thread.
Perhaps I'm too easily amused.
Perhaps I'm too easily amused.
Perhaps I'm too easily amused.
Perhaps you are. Normally it amuses me too, but Skidracer did comment in the past that he thought it was quite likely that BlitzMax would be able to be used for PS3 development. I don't know if he was kidding, but it surprised a few people at the time, including myself.
I think people fail to appreciate the difference between "theoretically possible", "practicaly acheivable" and "likely to happen".
While it is supposedly true that the PS3 uses a Linux based operating system, and it's true one could conceivably create a Cell version of the Blitz compiler, and it might be possible to compile binutils and gcc - that still leaves a fair bit of room until one actually has a binary that one could execute on a PS3.
For starters, there's the SDK and API documentation - you'd need to get your hands on that first, and that's gonna cost you.
Then there's the small issue of whether ld is even going to be able to link the PS3's executable format - which isn't likely - so apart from the Sony/IBM propiety tools, you'll need their assembler and linker aswell.
I'm saying never. The PS3 is never going to be an open platform. Ever. The Amiga days are over, they died with Commodore, now if only people would let it do so gracefully The Amiga became what it did, because it shipped with creativity tools (crap ones, but functional none the less) and you could reasonably easilly get your hands on some half-decent shareware tools, through fred fish.
There is nothing to indicate this is going to change. What Sony does have are an overpriced and underpowered console, with more or less defective CPUs, that're difficult for seasoned programmers to work with (never mind enthusiats), and doesn't seem to have any must-have launch titles. In short they have a Mario64-less N64.
While it is supposedly true that the PS3 uses a Linux based operating system, and it's true one could conceivably create a Cell version of the Blitz compiler, and it might be possible to compile binutils and gcc - that still leaves a fair bit of room until one actually has a binary that one could execute on a PS3.
For starters, there's the SDK and API documentation - you'd need to get your hands on that first, and that's gonna cost you.
Then there's the small issue of whether ld is even going to be able to link the PS3's executable format - which isn't likely - so apart from the Sony/IBM propiety tools, you'll need their assembler and linker aswell.
The reason I ask, is that I know with some certainty that there will be homebrew access on PS3. Think along the lines of the Amiga - and you'll be near the way it works (media is secured not the platform).
I'll take 5:1 odds on that bet (or would if online gambling wasn't illegal). You know how they say you should never say never?I'm saying never. The PS3 is never going to be an open platform. Ever. The Amiga days are over, they died with Commodore, now if only people would let it do so gracefully The Amiga became what it did, because it shipped with creativity tools (crap ones, but functional none the less) and you could reasonably easilly get your hands on some half-decent shareware tools, through fred fish.
There is nothing to indicate this is going to change. What Sony does have are an overpriced and underpowered console, with more or less defective CPUs, that're difficult for seasoned programmers to work with (never mind enthusiats), and doesn't seem to have any must-have launch titles. In short they have a Mario64-less N64.
Agreed.
The linux part is obviously tacked on to try to pass it off as a PC in EU, saving tax for Sony.
For starters, there's the SDK and API documentation - you'd need to get your hands on that first, and that's gonna cost you.
Then there's the small issue of whether ld is even going to be able to link the PS3's executable format - which isn't likely - so apart from the Sony/IBM propiety tools, you'll need their assembler and linker aswell.
Then there's the small issue of whether ld is even going to be able to link the PS3's executable format - which isn't likely - so apart from the Sony/IBM propiety tools, you'll need their assembler and linker aswell.
Here's the Cell SDK, compilers linkers and tools free from IBM. They're not the complete set of game tools that you'd get with a PS3 SDK, but with them you should be able to get code up and running if the PS3 does ship with a usable Linux.
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/cellsw?open&S_TACT=105AGX16&S_CMP=DWPA
Cell uses the Linux OS, so it'll certainly have Linux installed on the PS3 somewhere. The question is whether it will be accessable by users, and if it is you might not have access to, e.g., the graphics hardware without the full SDK. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to distribute games you write for it if you can write games for it.
Here's the Cell SDK, compilers linkers and tools free from IBM.
Have you read that? This is an SDK for IBM Blade Servers, not the PS3. You will not be able to use this to develop for the PS3. with them you should be able to get code up and running if the PS3 does ship with a usable Linux.
No. You wouldn't even be able to do "Hello World". You assume too much. Cell uses the Linux OS, so it'll certainly have Linux installed on the PS3 somewhere.
There is a Cell port of Linux yes. However the PS3 is not going to ship with an fully fledged operating system, anymore than the XBox dashboard is Windows2000. Sure, it might be running a tailored version of the Linux kernel, but there's more to an OS than just the kernel. Man - why are people getting so uppitty. If you dont think homebrew will be possible on PS3 thats fine, but not what I asked. And I really dont care if anyone _beleives_ it or not. I know you can, and for me, thats all that matters.
What I wanted to know was whether blitz could be used on a different Linux kernel - but I have since found out it cannot due to the compiler (without BRL rebuilding to suit). So the point is moot, and thus the question now answered. And I'll be orf to look at some other RDE's to suit.
What I wanted to know was whether blitz could be used on a different Linux kernel - but I have since found out it cannot due to the compiler (without BRL rebuilding to suit). So the point is moot, and thus the question now answered. And I'll be orf to look at some other RDE's to suit.
honestly i won't care if the PS3 has homebrewing on it, not going to get one
i only care about the DS homebrew, only C/C++ and assembly but i am willing to learn, and the Wii even though i am ab it owrried they may release some watered down programming language. hopefully they will not or both will be good.
i only care about the DS homebrew, only C/C++ and assembly but i am willing to learn, and the Wii even though i am ab it owrried they may release some watered down programming language. hopefully they will not or both will be good.
No offence, but many people here haven't even made a game for PC with all the tools that are available right now. I think console development is so far out of your league that it's almost hilarious. (And that doesn't include the exclusive rights to company cost)
Homebrew development on consoles have been tough since, well forever. Worrying about PS3, a console not even released isn't worth your time, seriously.
Homebrew development on consoles have been tough since, well forever. Worrying about PS3, a console not even released isn't worth your time, seriously.
I've been a console developer for years and it really isn't anything to get excited about. Personally I don't fancy the idea of developing on PS3 it sounds horrendously complex.
B3D is probably the most enjoyable programming environment I've ever come across. Very easy to work with and I can concentrate on what really matters - gameplay.
B3D is probably the most enjoyable programming environment I've ever come across. Very easy to work with and I can concentrate on what really matters - gameplay.
This is an SDK for IBM Blade Servers, not the PS3.
And how much difference do you think there will be, as far as the compiler is concerned? Same CPUs, same chipset, same IO bus, same architecture, same binary format, same OS kernel...
Damn it, I actualy agree with ENAY for once ;)
Damn it, I actualy agree with ENAY for once ;)
Don't worry. Happened to me once. They have these great pills that'll sort you right out.
And how much difference do you think there will be, as far as the compiler is concerned? Same CPUs, same chipset, same IO bus, same architecture, same binary format, same OS kernel...
There's more to the PS3 than just the CPU, memory controller and address bus. How are you going to interface with the PS3 gpu? There's likely no reference to the Kernel ROM in the blade server API. Write drivers yourself?
From what it sounded like Sony is touting the PS3 as being everything you need, a whole computer and not just a game console. They wouldn't make it be a whole computer, with a linux desktop, and expect to be ABLE to restrain compilation.
ENAY is right.
(and before he says it, PS3 will possibly be slightly gay, too).
(and before he says it, PS3 will possibly be slightly gay, too).
Yeah, now all we need is for the Net Yaroze to make a comeback, then we'll have something to ponder about.
From what I can gather, the PS3 is going to be around £450 in the UK which is a crazy crazy price.
Now, imagine the the people who are going to buy the PS3 (or indeed any console).
Even if the PS3 had the ability for homebrew, who is your target audience?
I mean, you pay for a next gen console, you expect next gen games. Very few people on this forum have pushed Blitz 3D to its limits let alone a console that is a hell of a lot harder to program for before you even get to the AAA graphics that your target audience will expect.
Furthermore, I seriously doubt Sony will care for the minute percentage of homebrew fanatics when they have $$$ signs ringing in their eyes from licence agreements.
AAA games development on the next gen consoles is estimated in the millions of dollars, with highly talented programmers, graphic and sound artists. If you are realistic with yourselves the chance of making any money being a hobby coder on these things is next to nil. As stated above, Sony won't be giving a damn about hobbiests at home when they want you to be buying games they make money on with each and every sale.
Now, imagine the the people who are going to buy the PS3 (or indeed any console).
Even if the PS3 had the ability for homebrew, who is your target audience?
I mean, you pay for a next gen console, you expect next gen games. Very few people on this forum have pushed Blitz 3D to its limits let alone a console that is a hell of a lot harder to program for before you even get to the AAA graphics that your target audience will expect.
Furthermore, I seriously doubt Sony will care for the minute percentage of homebrew fanatics when they have $$$ signs ringing in their eyes from licence agreements.
AAA games development on the next gen consoles is estimated in the millions of dollars, with highly talented programmers, graphic and sound artists. If you are realistic with yourselves the chance of making any money being a hobby coder on these things is next to nil. As stated above, Sony won't be giving a damn about hobbiests at home when they want you to be buying games they make money on with each and every sale.
ENAY is dead wrong if he was aiming that post towards Grover.
Depends on what kind of game.
Standard mingling of people running around doing homebrew is an unlikely thing, but if there was a dev kit for smaller developers to try to use the system's power for different things other than graphics (eg: Completely excessive use of procedural content), it could be nice.
Of course, that won't happen, since Sony wouldn't release 2 dev kits with one being so much cheaper than the other.
For homebrew, I've always felt that the best place is handhelds :)
Standard mingling of people running around doing homebrew is an unlikely thing, but if there was a dev kit for smaller developers to try to use the system's power for different things other than graphics (eg: Completely excessive use of procedural content), it could be nice.
Of course, that won't happen, since Sony wouldn't release 2 dev kits with one being so much cheaper than the other.
For homebrew, I've always felt that the best place is handhelds :)
Yeah, and I haven't even gotten plans for that GBA Devkit that I got either. Man, I'm glad Nintendo didn't know about me buying some flash equipment. Of course, you have to convert Blitz code into VC++ or C# in order to do something, which is unfortunate...
However, back on topic. If BlitzMax is on the Linux platform, then you could try installing that on the PS3 HDD, and see what happens. Of course, since a modded original Xbox also runs Linux, but the Mandrake distro, you sorta gotta wonder how homebrew did with that platform.
However, back on topic. If BlitzMax is on the Linux platform, then you could try installing that on the PS3 HDD, and see what happens. Of course, since a modded original Xbox also runs Linux, but the Mandrake distro, you sorta gotta wonder how homebrew did with that platform.