Microsoft fined £194m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5171126.stm

I don't get this.

Its 'the norm' for software companies to protect their code and assets. You can get sued for taking somebody else's code. Yet in the case of Microsoft, other firms are actively encouraged to 'steal' it and Microsoft get fined for not making sensitive information about their own software more widely available to its competitors.

If the competition can't make software that can compete, then why should Microsoft get fined for that? Just doesn't make sense.

Thats not the problem.

Microsoft didn't need to give out the code (especially not license it out).
What the decision 2 years ago enforced is that MS gives out a clear documentation on their communication protocols, especially the ones of the server windows on which most protocols are "secret".

MS tried to get around this by licensing out the code and say "the code shows you all" which was now (think the 3rd time now?) rejected by the EU.

windows bashing... thats all it is.

MS are holding back information on its protocals for a reason, and its 90% to do with security, there are a few , well more than a few things about their protocalls that are not secure and MC knows it. if they release full technical details on how they work then I will shift to slackware, because the OS is gona be flooded with virus and hack after virus and hack for about a year and a half until its all cleared up.

this is a very stupid move IMHO. and MS should stick to their guns and keep that information to themselves... its like. telling them to give out their source just because people cant make better software..

I think the problem is MS are pushing their stuff at government/schools etc. which means their protocols must be open to allow other software makers to release compatible products.

Thats true GfK if a company isn't a manopoly. But MS goes against EU rules about market share (a company can't have more than 51% market share, MS has 90%).

Its fair competition, IMHO.

Its no good other companies whining about Microsoft just because they lack the ability to make anything that competes with them.

It is not so easy GFK.

MS actions are simply against European law.
Every other company gets his **** kicked for acting against the law. MS had enough time and still has time to prevent the fine. . Just because it is MS doesn't mean it's not bound to the law.

It's the same with President Bush starting war whereever and whenever he wants to just because it may be of his interest.

Sure both have great power: But with great power also comes great resposibility!

It is really sad to see that politicians and firm bosses forget that often.

Curious that the same thing isn't going on with Apple, probably just because of the low market share. I can imagine a country forcing Apple to unbundle software they provide also; hey, it's crushing competition.

Do you look everywhere to find parallels that your political opinions can be pulled into?

why doesn't Bill just stop selling Windows in Europe for a month or two...

just stop selling it over there...
stop all support, stop all services... let em eat Linux for a while...

after a few weeks of that, i bet they'll learn some common sense and humility...


or...




http://www.virtualgotcha.com/default.asp


--Mike

It's a shame that making bloaty shoddy software isn't a finable offence.

Microsoft makes the best development tools, hands down. Nobody else even comes close. Shoddy? Pfft.

That sounds weird... do you mean that they can only sell to 51% of people and have to kick out the rest, or am I misunderstanding?
I'm probably misunderstanging, but if not, this should not apply to operating systems.
It would be ridiculous if half the world was running on one OS and the other half was running on another.
Right now, it's fine, but with two equally powerful operating systems, things would eventually get further and further apart until the two were simply not compatible.

Very true. Nobody will be able to make an iTunes killer for quite some time. (Not because iTunes has any noteable features other than its ability to talk to an iPod, of course).
Although, I don't really care. I just store my music on CF cards and use internet radio.
Far superior, and it will be excellent once large scale public wireless gets further along :)


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Microsoft lose a bit of their power.
Just... not like this.

I still can't quite understand the way that this is all being executed by the EU, and I am beginning to fear more and more that it is not due to my misunderstanding of lawyer talk.

In my opinion, this is even unfair to Windows users.
For example, back when they were on about MS bundling IE with Windows and wanted it removed: I would not want to be using Explorer's FTP stuff to go and download a web browser. Neither do I want to pay for a web browser, which I would have to do if it was available as a seperate product on a CD.
Bundled software is an important thing!
...Especially when that bundled software is file managers, graphics APIs and window systems.

My vision of the EU a bunch of powerful cackling hypocrites.
Sad, really...

NO..no..please not that horrible bolted together by 10,657 different developers - what flavour do you want today - piece of penquin poo.

The EU is true bloatware ! They must see MS as a cash cow ! I bet they have a dedicated board thinking up new ways to extort money from MS. I suppose they have to justify their own existence somwhow and cover the vast amounts of cash they steal and promptly waste from the European taxpayer.

I think they see MS as a cash cow too. But then I am very much a Eurosceptic. They forced MS to ship that cut down version of Windows XP which I read only sold about 2 copies anualy. Wonder how much that cost for MS to please the twits running the EU.


-----------
The EU gets involved in too many things, often things I'm passionate about like cars.

Leaving us with bulky fat ugly sports cars that have to have a bonnet with 6" of clearance above the engine block for pedestrian safety reasons. No more pop up headlights, or ornaments on the hood/bonnet, and now they are experimenting with airbags on the front of the car to protect pedestrians :(

Anyway, the EU is pants.

I think safety is a lot more important than nice looking cars. (Besides, they can still look nice - just takes a bit of work to figure out how).
However, pedestrian safety isn't the right angle to take.
Someone has to be having a pretty dumb moment to mow down a pedestrian, and, if the driver wasn't being dumb, the pedestrian has to be pretty dumb/arrogant to get mowed down, thus justifying their injuries.
My only encounter with being nearly hit by a car had me sandwiched (while moving) between a parked car and a moving school bus, causing me to injur my hand against the parked car's rear view mirror. (Which I believe was also damaged by my bike...)
That isn't avoided by changing the shape of cars; it's avoided by not letting people drive if they don't know how.

Have they imposed any bumper height rules?
I think it's idiotic how a ginormous 4wd mega truck (used for getting the groceries, of course, because God Forbid It Get Scratched Paint) has bumbers at about the height of a small car's windshield.


What I don't like about how the EU is behaving is how so many things they do inadvertantly affect everyone else.
I don't live in Europe, but a manufacturer isn't going to make two completely different cars for Europe and Everywhere Else because the EU forces them to add all sorts of extra things.

Like emission reduction devices

Yes, there's good things too :)
Besides, many countries will tell car manufacturers to add emission reduction devices, so it's not much of an issue.

I'm in agreement with cars being made more for safety and environmental health than for looks, though.
They all get scratched up and wrecked in the end, anyway.
I just think they are going about it in the wrong way. There is a lot more than just pedestrian safety that could be improved there.

So, cars was a bad angle to say that.

What I really mean is, when the EU gets mad at Microsoft, Microsoft changes for everyone. (Not just Europe).
Its' all a bit too influencial for my liking.
Not that it's their fault, really; Microsoft decided to sell in Europe. It's just the way that these things work :(

Security through obscurity does not work.

No it isn't - it's a de facto monopoly.

What's that got to do with anything? Microsoft are being fined because they're breaking the law. Repeatedly.

It is.

Because the European market is bigger than the US market.

Except IBM, Omnicore and Metrowerks.

IE is not free. It is factored into the cost of Windows.

Couldn't agree more. However people who are right for the wrong reasons are still right.

It sold no copies, because it wasn't available in shops. The EU version of XP only exists on paper.

I'm not. The safer they make cars, the more recklessly and irresponsibly people will drive them. Replace that airbag with a claymore mine. If people knew that getting in traffic accidents would get them a face full of shrapnel, people would drive a lot more carefully.

LOL!!!!!!

Blitz research make the best development tools

sorry 'Duck, but i have to apologize before hand... i have to question your latest journey into the realm of fantasy and folklore...

the thing that i wonder about me is not what you say, but the way you say it... not as opinion or viewpoint, but as self righteous, qualified, expert assertion of fact...

i wonder just what processes are in motion, from the point of inception, to the time when your fingers touch the keys, when you come up with one of these duckismic episodes that make you assert such... i don't know what to call it...

anyway, take for example, your latest gem...


Because the European market is bigger than the US market.[/quote]

an unsuspecting person reading this might even be fooled into believing it is indeed based on fact... and this is where the danger of the duckismic practice lies...


i'm not gonna pick apart every one of your replies to everyone in your post above... just your response to what i said... that should be more than enough to assure anyone and everyone reading this thread, that the entirety of your post is not to be taken as anything more than the ravings of a misinformed and misguided water foul...

fact...





so just how did you come up with European sales figures being larger than those of the US...



fact...


this info comes from here--> https://www.microsoft.com/msft/ar02/financials/item7.htm


now these figures are a few years old... but the trends and percentages will be similar for the last MS revenues breakdown i would venture to assume...

regardless, though... how in gods name, did you arrive at your figures... when all the king and queens analysts can only surmise... and their summation leaves a giant 70% remaining... Flame Duck can unequivocably state that MS market in Europe is bigger than that in the US...

... amazing

:)

--Mike

They make the best language, their development tools are atrocious.


That is the most sensible thing I have heard in a long time =]

actually... it's quite insane...

what you should've said was, 'That is the most insane thing i have heard in a long time'....

least of all because of the fact that if most people knew that they would run the chance of getting a face full of shrapnel from an exploding airbag in their faces, i would think that most of em wouldn't drive at all...

but even ignoring that assumption, the idea itself is straight out of looney tunesville...


--Mike

Most people not driving is a good thing. Good job you only gave that as the least of your examples, eh red ;>

I said it was a larger market - because there are 100 million more people living there.

Thank You for proving my point.

BTW, Revenue != sales.

Even if one where to subscribe to your crudde leaps of faith, one would logicly deduct that the region with the largest population, and lowest revenue would equal the largest market. All other factors remaining largely identical.

only you would see it that way 'duck... only you...

the rest of the world sees it as it actually is...
me showing you up as the misinformed orator of nonsense that you truly are...

only a dolt would operate on the same set of batteries that would power such misguided logic...
and i use the word logic very generously here...

STOP for a second 'Duck...
stop and take a look at these statistics...

Information Technology Usage Trends

Information Technology Usage Trends
 
  1990 1995 2000 2005 2010 
Cellular Subscribers Per 1,000 People           
USA (#) 21.1 127 388 683 946 
W. Europe (#) 9.1 60 634 930 1,008 
Asia-Pacific (#) 0.4 7.1 71 230 379 
Worldwide (#) 2.1 15.6 123 319 478 
Internet Users Per 1,000 People           
USA (#) 7.2 105 477 668 839 
W. Europe (#) 0.5 22 244 535 788 
Asia-Pacific (#) 0.03 1.2 34 116 193 
Worldwide (#) 0.4 7.9 69 167 262 
PCs In-Use Per 1,000 People           
USA (#) 192 321 628 778 932 
W. Europe (#) 69 158 330 543 755 
Asia-Pacific (#) 4.8 14.6 39 75 118 
Worldwide (#) 18.6 40 87 140 201 

these stats come from The Computer Industry Almanac
http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0206.htm


in spite of the 800 million vs 300 million population advantage all of Europe has over the US, does looking at any of the above figures sort clue you in to where your wiring is shorted or faulty...

of course it doesn't... why am i even asking...


hey, would you do the world a favor flamey... would you will your brain to science when you no longer need it...

i'm sure they would love to dissect it and find out what is the cause of the dreaded desease you suffer from... lobotic duckismacy... the scourge of the severely misinformed...

that and cancer... please... help us find a cure...


--Mike

Red.

Between 2005 and 2010 the Usa will have an increase of 154 per 1000, whislt europe will have an increase of 212 per 1000

This of course doesnt support or disprove your or duck stance. Because you would need the Populations.

Oh good you've edited.

so 154 per 1000 is 15.4% growth. 212 per 1000 is 21.2% growth.

300 Million USA = Projected growth of 46 million new cutomers.

800 Million EU = Projected growth of 169 million new cutomers.

Total (2010)
Usa 279.6 million pcs
EU 604 million pcs

In fact as long as europe has more than 375 pc per 1000, The US would need more than 1000 per 1000 to be a bigger market

The stats are from your post. So trust them or not, its up to you

wait a second HK... i have no stance here...

all i'm asking is how 'duck came to his assertion that MS has a bigger market in Europe than in the US...

especially when every flaming statistic and fact based piece of information seems to show otherwise...

especially since MS doesn't publish their revenues or sales on regional breakdown basis any more... and when they did, it sure didn't seem to support what ducky was asserting...


look at the chart HK... all projections still have the US ahead in per capita computer usage, well into 2010...

now this may mean that a greater number of total users are projected in the future... but if you'll read 'Ducks post, i think that it is clear that he was talking about today... not 2010...

now this was done by people who are qualified at such things... not by me... what are you talking about, i didn't edit a thing...

--Mike

Look at the figures red. If europe has over twice the population than the us. The us would need a per 1000 figure twice as big to be a bigger market.

You did take a stance. The stance that it was not reasonable to say europe is a bigger pc market than the Us. However, it is.

Hence safer roads.

if there was a stance, it was that 'ducks assetion was based on the phases of the moon... and not by any solid facts...

reasonable has nothing to do with it at all...

plus... that sort of deuctive reasoning that you are now engaging in is flawed as well...

if you are really interested in fact based discussion... look here for a more indepth analysis...

http://www.etforecasts.com/products/ES_pcww1203.htm



--Mike

Ahhh, but you see Red. There is a difference between solid facts that you know. And solid facts that we know.

But at least now we know, (Thanks to your stats), that the Europen market for Microsoft is bigger than the US's

Mind you, We already knew that.

Edit: Red if you think that any of my reasoning was flawed. Please feel free to point it out. (When you look it up on google, you need to search for "Remedial Maths")

you jump to conclusions, almost as fast as 'duck does...

the numbers show nothing of the number of pcs per person, per capita, or per household... either in the US vs Europe...

so basing your conclusions solely on population, and not correlating it with per capita usage is flawed...

can't you see this...

in short, if a typical US person has 2 or 3 computers vs a typical European who has 1 computer... your conclusions go out the window...

if a typical person in the US buys more computers over a shorter period than that same typical person in Europe, your conclusions go out the window...


can you see what i'm talking about...

you can't just go around saying that because per capita sales are this amount, and Europe has over twice as many people as the US does, then it is safe to conclude that they are consuming more computers and computer related goods and services (in particular those from MS)...

that is kind of simplistic reasoning is what i'm talking about...


--Mike

Oh yes silly me,
cos sales of Windows doesnt depend on how many PC there are. It depends on how many PC per person.
Ohh. Shame then that your stats show that there are over twice as many PC in europe than the US. If it showed how many per person it would be useful. Yes?

Red WE KNOW europe is a bigger marget for microsoft than the US is.

that's right... every time you buy a new pc, you buy a new Windows license...

cha ching!!! Bill adds another dollar to the estate...


and those aren't *MY* stats...

and it doesn't show that at all... it shows per capita usage... period...


--Mike

No Red they are not "your" stats they are just the stats that show the exact opposite of what you posted them to prove

and just what did i post them to prove...

also, simple sampling... non scientific...

how many windows pcs do you have running right now?

how many do you own?

when was the last time you purchased one?

just answer those three questions real quick...



--Mike

Oh you posted them to prove you were right and duck was wrong

3,0 and dos 6.1

no... i posted em to show that 'ducks jumps to unsubstiated conclusions based not on factual data, but on mere supposition or the phases of the moon...

i own 7 win based machines
purchased my latest one just a month or two ago

now are you starting to see why the stats are based on per capita... and not soley on population...

--Mike

No red. I just see someone, who didnt learn to read stats tables at school.

You are the one who jumped to a conclusion.

Europe is a bigger market for microsoft than the US. Just live with it.

Night

no HK... what you see is someone who does not blindly jump to unfounded conclusions...

what you're saying is just like saying that because there are more people in Europe than in the USA, that there must be more cars in Europe than in the USA...

how many families in europe own a car... and of those how many families own more than one car... how many own more than two... does any of this play into your population based, faulted logic at all...

do you ever stop to consider any of these factors affecting the final, factual, sensible, result...

maybe ya want some actual info on the real numbers HK... some statistics... or are you content to wallow in ignorance, and assume that because there are more people in Europe, there must be more cars on the road...

can't you see that you are applying the same flawed assumptive logic to the computer scene as well...

no... it seems as if you are the one who is operating in the duckismic cosmos HK... not me...

--Mike

the silence is deafening......

you must be pounding those keys really hard, doing the google assisted search for something to help you out...

go ahead... i'll wait...

when you are done, lemme know what you find...

--Mike

To the contrary. Every peice of information you have posted indicates that Microsoft has more customers (or generates more revenue) in the US. The number of current customers is not indicative of market size, merely Microsofts market penetration within their market segment.

This is great guys... keep it up :-)

Personally, I would have thought if A was bigger than B, A would be a larger market, regardless of how many products per person B had.
Silly me.... slapped wrists etc...

Anyhoo, £194m is a drop in the ocean for M$. I doubt they even flinched.

Of course, the *biggest* market opening up in the world is now China, which makes the US look quite insignificant. (shame)

:o)

Gfk those are good news.

I don't see where MS has the monopoly. Can't remember that they force anyone to use their stuff (unlike Intel that enforced it to PC makers for several years now). The just offer the bester "DAU OS" with the most accessable DAU software.

Just make 80% of the people less stupid and other apps might have a chance as well.

I'm still waiting for the gov attack on Adobe and Autodesk. They have monopols as well after Adobe ate Macromedia and Autodesk ate the Maya makers ...
Oh and why wasn't apple sued? They had more than only a de facto monopol on PPC systems but were never touched.
Nor are they touched for the fact that their OS installes more stuff together with the OS than Windows ever could bundle on the XP disk ... (I say XP because Vista Ultimate tops OSX when it comes to unneeded stuff noone really needs per default ;-) ). How about the iPod updater that forces you to download the newest iTunes? Or Quicktime that is only downloadable as oversized bundle with crapTunes as well?

"Except IBM, Omnicore and Metrowerks."
That's why every major development house uses those ... oh wait.

well... it's now the next morning... and still no reply from the master statistician (HK)...

maybe it's because of the fact that, his foot is logged so deeply in his mouth, he can't type...

and Brucey, since you decided to add your lil words of wisdom in here, you might wanna stick around a sec...see how simplistic your approach is, and how totally dead wrong you can be as well from using such simple logic...

seeing as Europe has such a greater population as compared to the US, ie A is bigger than B as Brucey puts it... and using his, 'Ducks, and HK simplistic logic... it would naturally make sense that Europe would obviously have more cars than the US... right...

well, lets take a look a the reality of the situation...





well... that can't be right can it... how is this possible... it seems that according to the Duckismic, HK-atic, and Brucematic school of orderly logic, that this can't possibly be correct... a country with less than half the population of Europe having over one quarter of the total number of autos..

go figure...

for those interested, the quotes come from --> http://www.worldwatch.org/node/1537

sorry... a lil too busy right now to go chasing around google for more accurate and up to date info for something as foolish as this... if this aint good enough to show you 3 that your methods need help, then...


it's this same flawed reasoning that is applied to computers, computer services, and MS in Europe that makes your assertions on the market size in this arena just as flawed...


the stats i presented gave you per capita figures, from which to help you form a more realistic position from... not to jump to wild conclusions based soley on those numbers...

god, what was i thinking...

... my bad.


i must ask before i wind up here... HK, Duck, Bruce... do you guys use a debugger to track down logic faults when you code... or do you just keep changing the code around, modifying the values, hoping that it will start to work right eventually...

... just curious.


now back to the original topic if we may...

--Mike

Heheh, business as usual eh today Mike? :)
Arguing with everyone and acting your usual strange self.

> No red. I just see someone, who didnt
> learn to read stats tables at school.

Or learn how to correctly use full stops.

same for you today as well, eh ENAY...

going from post to post, from thread to thread...
wondering aimlessly...

making a complete fool of yourself...


ahhh, it's so nice to see things are as they usually are...


--Mike

I can't be bothered to have inane debates with you today, too busy right now. Sorry :)
Today, you'll just have to take your 'argue and never listen' games with other blitz members (which I see you already are doing)

Have fun!

[edit]
You love editing your posts don't you after I've posted?
Perhaps you should change "wondering aimlessly" to "wandering aimlessly" then you might actually be on your way to making some sort of coherency.
I suppose you gotta love the old guys in life.

hahahahahaaa... don't get no smarty pants attitude with me you lil so and so :)...

your middle name *IS* INANE... ENAY'NE...

and we all know that you aint busy doing nothing...


--Mike

> you aint busy doing nothing

Yes I 'am' 'not' not busy doing nothing. Thanks for stating the obvious of which I've just told you. Anyway enough of this prattle, I'm going back to doing work, you go and make youself useful and play with your subs.

i thought you said you were busy!!!

HAHAHAAHAHAAAA.... seems that i was right... you have nothing to do... allllll dayyyyyy loooooonggg...

so you search me out to brighten that otherwise non existant gloom you call a life...

hey, that's ok... glad i can be there for ya...

now... i said what i meant to say... you **WONDER** about everything... especially my power over you...

and the **AIMLESSLY** part comes from the fact that you keep coming back for more...


--Mike

EU has a rules, good or bad, MS should follow if they wanna play on EU field..simple as that..

"EU has a rules, good or bad, MS should follow if they wanna play on EU field..simple as that.. "
Not quite that simple. MS has the ability to pump hundreds of millions of dollars into the economy. Might be worth bending a rule or two for.

Munich's government started that LiMux project. Means a city migrates from M$ to open source.
Migration should be finished 2008. If that works, chances are good that other cities will follow.

I would say a working OS is a vital part of a modern country.
Its a good move to take care that a country isnt forced to use a single companies software. If other companies cant catch up with the monopolist, it could lead to a dangerous technological disadvantage in the future.
You know what happened to countries which are technological far behind. Today Microsoft sells stuff all over the world, this must not be true in 90 years.

Anyway, if all fails we have Oktoberfest here and tons of english girls drinking me under the table...muhahaha

Because popular = the best, as any fool know. Right?

So Dell make the best PCs and TFT displays, VW make the best cars, Apple make the best portable music players, Lexmark make the best printers, Cisco makes the best routers, Sony makes the best console, and EA Sports make the best videogames.

See the obvious flaw in your logic yet?

That is both sad and really funny at the same time. :o>

'Not quite that simple. MS has the ability to pump hundreds of millions of dollars into the economy. Might be worth bending a rule or two for.'

well..in short term maybe yes, in long term not at all..domination of any kind is not good for independence, especially if we are talking about such a software solutions such as OS..no wonder many countries government switching to Linux (Germany, Australia, Austria...) and pushing Windows to trash...fact that MS producing OS most wide spreaded all around world, doesnt mean that there is no one else who can produce better things..its just questions of money spended on to development...same things going on here in Japan...Japan government start also development of some Linux version of OS for they own purposes..I am pretty sure MS will trough all this actions such as one in Munich /LiMux/, Japan government, Germany, Australia, Austria, France, China, MS will, step by step learn to respect laws in other countries, appart from fact that noone need OS what only MS knows whats going behind and still selling it to peoples with 'guarantee' that things is very secure..I doubt anyone will take a risk in their government to use such a things..newest actions in many governments clearly showing that...