Getting your foot in the door

Hello folks, it's been ages since I've started a new topic here. I don't know if this topic has ever been discussed before, but if it has, and you can direct me to the topic, I'll be happy to read it.

My problem is this. I've just recently graduated college, and I'm looking for a programming job. So far I've only had one interview. It went well, I accepted the job and worked there for about a month. But I wasn't liking it. It didn't have anything to do with actual programming or development. We were basically using existing software to build reports off of a company database.

So my boss got talking to me, and he's right, I should be finding a job I really want to do. I have the degree, and spent 5 years getting it, so I could get the job I want. I want to do games programming. It's what I've done in my spare time throughout my whole college years. So now I'm back home, and hoping to find a job in games development.

So here's my plan: Find a company that is developing decent software - a halfway small company, as hard ones are hard to talk to - build relationships with the people there, and then see if they're looking for a programmer, or know of anyone that does.

But now I'm a little stuck. How to I initially start relations with a company like that? I'm really not sure about this part of the process. I mean, how do you strike up a conversation with a busy stranger? Me, I wouldn't be so forth-coming to a stranger like that. Anyone have any ideas? I would be most appreciative of anyone's help on this.

What degree? 5 years would be about a Masters or something, right? What major? Math or Physics?

maybe conferences and expos that are made for this? Not sure if they exist exclusively for job applicants, but for initial contacts I'd imagine GDC (Game Developer's Conference) is a decent place to meet people from all ranges of the industry (EA all the way to the small indie company).

If you are good enoggh at what you do they find you not you them. Make some tech demos, make some good software and they will be looking for you....

...can hurt if someone tries to close it... ;O)

...if you know well assembler and willing to work in japan, then there is opportunities...but of course, its industrial MCU programming..not exactly games you looking for :)

What sort of games programming do you want to do?
That's the first question you will be asked in an interview.

Why don't you go freelance? Work on your own stuff, then publish your stuff through Indiepath (He's here on the forums), or through www.codersworkshop.com

Gabriel has a software submitting service in his sig, I think it's about £30 to submit your title to about 300 websites (Which is a bargain really), and I'm sure they sort your PAD file out and what not!

Maybe it's really worth thinking about <--- Probably a message to myself as well! :D

Dabz

I saw that edit Dabs.

No offence to Idigicon but I *really* wouldn't advise going to them as a publisher with your Masters- You're worth more. They do however seem great for people just looking for *any* kind of deal.

I know, I've just woke up and it took a couple of go's to actually write what I was thinking (Plus, it's bad karma to post someones email address, so I changed it!)

Dabz

We are selling off my distribution business and winding down the publishing side. We will still work with a number of third party products but only if they are strategic to our business. If you need a publisher I can recommend some to you.

Hey you edited *again* lol :-)

My question is what do you want to be:-

A) Games programmer
B) Games Designer
C) or both.

If the answer is either B or C then I seriously recommend you do not become a games programmer. Games programming nowadays is a cog in a machine and coders have no say on anything, and unless you genuinely love tinkering around with one aspect of games programming you will be bored out of your mind and with long hours, you will not have much of a social with anyone.

As people say, go freelance, otherwise you will learn to detest your favourite pasttime.

So what would you suggest for people who want to become Game Designers? When I worked in "the industry" it seemed a persons chances of becoming a game designer was based on who you knew rather than what you knew.

What ENAY said. However, you're not me so you may find the experience more rewarding than I did. If being creative isn't important to you, you'll fit right in. :P

As for getting a job as a Game Designer, you have zero chance, IMO. I can't see any devco taking you straight off the shelf with no proven track record or experience in the field.

Anyway, these are just my opinions based on my limited experience. You're probably better off taking advice from an old hand - someone like John Pickford.

worth a try: http://www.3drealms.com/gethired.html

In this day and age with games being so complex, taking years to complete and requiring a staff force of hundreds. You've got more chance of winning the lottery than becoming a game designer for a major company now. You'd need to have a track record of years worth of experience to even warrant getting an interview for a game design job.

Getting a programming or artist job is still really tough, if you wanna be a games programmer and you don't have the minimum of advanced physics and/or maths qualifications, degree and a strong background C/C++ (or completed game experience) you wouldn't even get to the interview stage.
And even when you get that elusive interview, you've gotta take a programming test ON PAPER and convince these guys that games programming is your life and that you love it to bits and would do it in your sleep if necessary.

For game designer, it's like getting hollywood to accept your movie script. It's not gonna happen.
Also remember that many companies are going out of business at the moment, these members of staff are competing for other jobs that YOU probably want.

I'd (seriously) off your own back, write a bunch of games by yourself, finish them, polish them. Make them good, before even considering being a game designer. (And that's without touching a single line of code in Blitz too. IF you're serious about going pro, dust off those C++, DirectX, OpenGL and Assembler books right now and get your hands dirty)

[edit]

Nice link Perturbatio :)

but read the very first sentence and be afraid!

" You are a *very* good programmer who is well rounded, and can rise to any challenge and pretty much do anything asked of you."

also

" You are very proficient in C/C++. You may have a shipped game title, or two, and a few years experience."

" You have a solid knowledge of 3D math."

Which is a thinly veiled way of telling you that you'll be expected to do a huge amount of overtime, without extra pay.

> Which is a thinly veiled way of telling you that
> you'll be expected to do a huge amount of overtime,
> without extra pay.

Heheh, in my last job interview some years back, they even asked if I had a girlfriend, they must have been trying to see how much time I did spend on the computer instead of family and other commitments.

I reccomend you get a job at a small game company. You'll have more creative input that way, and might even be your own boss, as far as the programming aspects go.

You might even convince a small company to let you do the games in Blitz.

Look on Gamasutra.com and GameJobs.com. There might also be listings on some IGN sites or Daily Radar or something. I know they had some sections for those years ago.

Be willing to move though. You're not likely to find a good job right around wherever you live.

I believe that everyone who works for them gets a share of the profits from the games they make (for as long as they are working there).

Well, I don't know anything about 3dRealms' employment policies - I was just commenting (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) about devcos in general. I doubt there are many firms that offer royalties to their staff, though.

Or who you are! It helps explain a few things.

I still maintain that the easiest way to become a successful game developer is to start in 1984.

I started in 1983... damn, one year out!

That explains how I got "promoted" from QA to animating goblins from a portacabin at the bottom of the car park.

Great days.

BTW: Hardwar 2 would have ruled. But no, they wanted to do Souldestro.... er.... Soulbringer instead. :/

Hey cool, got lots of responses I see. I'll try to answer everyone's questions.

Enay: I had the idea that sswift had, and am planning on starting in a small games business of sorts. I figure I wouldn't have a chance in a name-brand business like EA, Bungie or Blizzard. As for a possible company, I've been looking at this Chronic Logic company. They're the ones who made the first bridge-building game. But I'm just not certain how to go about talking with them. I mean, all I have right now is an email address.

Flameduck: Yeah, guess I should've been more specific. I hav a bachelor's degree in computer science.

Dabz: I have considered going freelance many times before. I have written a great deal of code and worked on many projects through my time in college. But there's quite a few things standing in my way. First and foremost, I have no resources to generate media. 3D models, textures, 2D graphics, sounds, music. I can't generate any of that at this time. I have managed to do some graphics on my own, but they don't turn out that great, and seems to consume more time than actually developing the game. I'd need a graphics person to work with me. And yes, I've talked to some people about doing work, and even paying them. But so far none of them have produced anything for me. So as far as the indie path, I'm rather trapped. I need to join a professional team.

Enay: On your question about what kind of job I want to have, I think I would go for A or B. I'd like to do both, but wouldn't have to. I could start out as only a programmer, and then work my way up to development (if I was able to).

Thing is, I'm willing to spend the 5-10 years I need, in order to work my way into the job I want. I'm definately going to start with a small company, as large firms would have much higher requirements - and want me to know things I don't yet. But the question I'm having today is how to start chatting with a company. Hope this makes sense.

Thanks everyone for your input to this discussion.

I would simply say stay away from being employed as a games developer - you'll absolutely be taken advantage of...

I wanted to become a games programmer - until Codemasters came to our uni to do their recruitment talk. The gist of their message was:

* They only want the best & they want you to have an A or B in A-Level maths or Physics

* They want you to work long hours

* The work you do is much harder than other stuff like developing business apps for banks and large companies

* (and the best bit) They wont pay you much, but you should be grateful to see your name in their games (of course, which is making them tons more than what they pay you).



If you don't want to be exploited, just stay away. I went into web design and eventually into developing online software applications. I find that developing interesting and interactive online applications a good alternative to games programming for a career - I get to mix my creative skills with my programming skills.

In general, you may get a games development job paying you somewhere between £17k - £22k in general, where you'll need much more specialist knowledge, plus the facts that you need to majorly update your skills for every generation of consoles and they'll probably exploit you by getting you to work overtime without extra pay.

On the other hand, you could do easier work developing business apps or online software applications and get paid more. You shouldn't find it too hard to find a job paying around £25k or more if you are fully proficient with a mixture of most the following:

*C(sharp)/VB.NET/ASP.NET/PHP/Java
*HTML
*CSS
*JavaScript
*XML
*SQL Server/MySQL or PHP

Even with junior positions, you could get between £18k - £22k.

If you went to do contracting work, you can generally get about £170 per day - maybe more if you're working in the south. For more specialist skills like Java development, I've saw contracting jobs at upto about £400 per day.

you could start your own company, i am starting one with a few friends of mine. we will most likely not last for more than a few years

i plan on working in japan hopefully for nintendo some day but i know that is a long ways off.

well i am only 15 so i can afford to make my own company for now, will put games on every download site i can

In which case, smaller companies / start-ups are probably the best way to go.

Nah, they'll just pay you less. Much less. I could get a better salary at McDonalds less.

...You're not even legally allowed to incorporate, much less likely to be able to afford what it costs.

I'd definately recommend more studying before trying to start up a corporate venture - even a small one.

Codemasters came to my Uni too, TWICE! Put me off them too.

> as large firms would have much higher
> requirements - and want me to know things I don't yet.

Catch 22 here, you will always be learning, always.
You can't spent 5-10 years mastering up your skill base because the time you've mastered something, something else will come along.
Proving a track record in completed games, working in teams and positive outcomes in projects would be worth more weight in gold than anything.

> i plan on working in japan hopefully for nintendo
> some day but i know that is a long ways off.

Heheh, Japan rarely employs foreigners to work in house dev, if that's your goal I hope you're already fluent in Japanese as a bare minimum. ;)

> But the question I'm having today is how to start chatting with a company.

Make a great demoreal and send it to them and they will start to chat with you, as simple as that.

If you already think it will fail then you have the wrong attitude to run your own company - get a job.

Or they were trying to figure out your "orientation" ;)

Such questions in an interview in the U.S. are illegal to ask due to discrimination laws.

join the Air Force, or the Navy... and see the world...

--Mike

...from inside a body bag.

he's got a degree... he'll be an officer, either up in a plane, or on a ship...

... not too many al kieda crewmates to worry about there, i would hazard to say.

besides... if it is his fate to wind up in a body bag, he stand just as good a chance on any street in any city in the world... so joining the AirForce or the Navy is no worse than joinging 3DJoyGames Incorporated in LA...



while there are some companies out there where a brand new college grad would be choice pickings, there are quite a few who are gonna want to see what you can do... what you've done so far... and what you know...

book learning and practical experience are two very different and distinct animals... i used to interview people for positions that knew the difference between an inner join and an outer join... knew the difference between early binding and late binding...

but ask em when and where they'd use it, and why... and they draw a blank...

can he draw, can he texture and skin... does he know the ins and outs of coding DX10, OpenGL...

can he whip up, or modify a shader to do exactly what is asked of him...

these are the things that i'd be interested in knowing about a job candidate... the degree would be secondary...

experience, insight, and integrity count much more as far as i'm concerned...

a degree in computer science tells me only that he's spent the last couple of years listening to someone whose probably done some of the aforementioned... and that he can learn things and pass tests.

good officer material :)

btw... how's his c++...


--Mike

I'd rather code my match-3 at home than go "shopping" in a Bagdad market right now.

> btw... how's his c++...

Do you conduct your interviews in the third person too?
It be ironic fate that I've just used 'third'. :)

you'd be sure to have gotten hired...

hahahahaahahahahaaaaaa... and if you believe that, then i've got a bridge here that crosses into Brooklyn i'd like to sell you too...


--Mike

He's addicted to you Red...

I'd never be able to work for you Mike. Even if I got the job you'd say:-
"Sign on the dotted line"
and I'd say:-
"Which frigging dotted line, they're everywhere!"

well, that's the built in monkey test... to measure your iq...

and, like i said above, you would've been out of the office so fast the door would've hit you on the behind on your way out...

--Mike

ha ha ha ha ha... and I thought Codemasters were harsh...

Well, to be completely honest, my coding skills are pretty good, but my C++ skills are pretty bad. I figured I wouldn't be hiring material if I have no experience, and (sorry guys) knowing Blitz will only get you so far. So I've started studying Allegro, a C++ games API recently.

I'm trying to create a module to manage framerates, and I'm getting stuck everywhere. First, I knew of no way to get the system clock time. Then I was stuck for a day sorting out linking errors, which I still have alot of trouble with. Now I have bugs in the code, and need to figure out how to store numeric values into a string.

But oh well. Maybe all this work will pay off eventually. And Enay, I don't mind learning new tools and tricks. If it helps me keep a job or get a better one, I'll learn whatever's necessary.

Allegro is good. I used it years ago in DOS and more recently in windows.

I'd say that's a bit offensive anyway...
If you are a spare-time programmer Idigicon gives you a pretty fair deal AFAI see it.
They gave me a one-pay proposal and mailed me the cheque imediately after I sent them
the source even if the project was just 90% finished.
I think that is a quite good deal since I got the money no matter how the sales went.

I'll recommend Idigicon and George Bray (sincere and nice guy) any day of the week !

Yes I'd recommend Idigicon too.
The vast majority of Idigicon's criticism over the years is almost always unfounded by disgruntled programmers who can't finish their contracted project/fix their own bugs, or by bang wagon proganda of people who only know half of a story and love a good scandal.
It always helps to know both sides of a story to make a sensible unbiased decision.

For me, Idigicon couldn't have been nicer to me over the years, but then again I actually FINISH my work, that's always one to put away in your CV.
I've started so I'll finish.

A fair deal huh? How much would you say would have been a fair deal for a game like Platypus?

I wouldn't. In fact I would take Goerges own advice and shop around.

Oh the irony.

Chris Avellone made a post today over at penny arcade about (amoungst other things) how one would go about applying for a job in the industry.

So generally, how much would Idigicon pay for a game developed with BlitzMax? Do they pay differently for different genres? I'm interested in writing an puzzle game with an educational maths emphasis (in a fun way) - how much would they generally pay for something like this?

I thought Idigicon aren't publishing games anymore?!

Still says on the Coders Workshop that they are looking for games to publish.

Oh, I was sure I read ages ago that they weren't doing games any longer. My bad.

I have no idea, I didn't sell them Platypus, nor am I a games publisher.
They gave me a price, I accepted, the cheque cleared OK, I was satisfied, case closed !

Well, there was one game (contracted) I did not finish, George could not
have been nicer about it :o)

Right back at ya !
Were does your hostility against them come from ?

> Were does your hostility against them come from ?

Flameduck has been close to BR and a dedicated coder and tester for them for many years so it's totally natural for him to be biased in this way. Each to their own opinion of course.

I guess it's some kind of BRL-groupie syndrome then....

Seriously, FD is always straight to the point and I like
that, but he almost always appear quite hostile to most
people not agreeing with him IMHO. A lot like GFK..

(Ducks and run for cover!)

Looking for George Bray, does anyone know how I can contact him via email?

I have tried george@... but email server cannot reach that address.

Thanks : )
rolow
wintmail@...

So you have no opinion on how much a game like Platypus would be worth? That's interesting. How about your own game? Do you know what that would be worth? If not, how do you know you wheren't cheated?

Let's just say that George and I have a difference of opinion about the degree of confidentiality of a private conversation, and leave it at that.

While I appreciate your attempt of humor, I can assure you that this has nothing to do with BRL. I'll leave the gang mentality to you two. You know brand loyalty is a mental illness, right?

This is not a matter of disagreement. I simply rely on more than my personal singular experience to form my opinion of Idigicon, and the facts are, they do not treat everyone with equal courtesy.

Try idigicon.com instead.

You'd be surprised. Unless they're recruiting for specific posts most developers try and recruit from a wide range of expertise. There's always room for a junior developer, and if you can show that you're good then they'd be foolish to turn you away just because you're a newbie.

Pretty much everyone I know in the games industry has got their job by going through two routes. The first is from the bottom up, that is through in-house testing departments. The only problem is that path limits you to testing, with small opportunities for Level Design and maybe Production after that.

The second way is to identify the area of development you want to be in, then build up a portfolio showing off what they can do. If you want to be a programmer, use the languages you'll need and create some simple games and demos, with source code. For a level designer, create some simple games to show off your skills (I used BlitzMax for mine :) ) or do some modding work for a popular game like HL2. Artists will need an art portfolio, obviously. Once you've got a whole lot together, bung it on to a CD or email and send that with a well-formatted CV/Resume to everyone you fancy working for (don't be too picky).

There's a list of developers here - http://gamesindustry.biz/directory.php . You'll have most luck going for those that are actually advertising for the job you want. I found that for some reason most devs start advertising for new staff around February.

Do your research properly, tailor your covering letter and CV to each company (and if need be write an extra demo that shows off what they want in the job application). If you get an interview, practice the interview with someone beforehand. Make sure you've played at least the most recent game the company has completed before the interview.

Er, it might take you a couple of years. Be patient. Keep building up your CV. Don't be disheartened. :)

Thanks for the pointer FlameDuck.....

go for a small company, or make your own if you know any people that need work and can make graphics, sound or music

i suggest you get a part time job if you go that way and cut back on expenses as much as you can

...and pay them with what?

Money.

Well guys, I hate to say it, but my situation has gone from bad to worse. My dad ended up kicking me out, basically because I wasn't helping him with the hottub room addition he was doing. I had other things I needed to do (including finding a job), but he didn't care. So I'm out of there, on my own now, no plans to go back. But fortunately, I do have an apartment, and now a job too. It's a warehouse job at EA. I'm not sure what all it entails yet, but I'll see when I start - tomorrow.

Teamonkey, your advice sounds quite reasonable, I might have to try that. One question though, do you have a programming job you enjoy? I have been busy throughout my college years working on my own projects. You can see a few at www.mindstormgames.com/project/index.php For now I'm using this as a portfolio. Do you think I should do that, or should I share the source with potential employers as well? So far I have gotten only a little more than replies from most companies. But yeah, for now I'll be patient and keep trying, and use my current job to pay bills.

@Storm8191
It looks like you're on the right track. Although your warehouse job isn't on the development track at least you're working for the company and you've got a big publisher name on your CV so the door's open a crack. Don't stop pimping your wares to other companies and those projects on your site look ideal. I don't know about the source code - maybe you should say it's available on request?

I'm actually a level designer, but yeah, I do enjoy it and it is very satisfying. The hours can be long, the pay average and it can be mentally exhausting at times, but sometimes I can't believe that I do what I do for a living and I do consider myself very lucky. So far, at least. :)